Great Bears of Gallowswood optimal formation

[Gedaning]

I was looking at my Great Bears of Gallowswood models and trying to figure out what is there optimal positioning should be for both damage output, assuring they keep there armor bonus and survivability.

obviously if you want to keep there armor bonus no matter which single model is killed, then you want them is some kind of triangular formation. from this I got two obvious formations, one being two in front and one in the back, all three bases touching the other two. I can see this being used if you want to protect one of the units by putting it in the back so anyone in front of the bears can not draw LOS, however with this formation you loose some damage because the back model also cant draw LOS to things in front of it.

The second one you would have one in the front and two in the back, in this triangle formation. If I'm reading the LOS rules correctly then each model within 2'', even the two in the back, should be able to attack not only to one of there sides and back but also in front of them since the ones in the back have some of there bases sticking out, so they can draw a line from about the edge of there base to about the edge of there target's base directly in front of them. This seems to have the beast damage out put of the triangle formations, however you will have a harder time protecting one of your models and the threat range is slightly reduced if you want all of the to be able to attack on a charge. If I'm measuring it correctly then the front model needs to be aprox 1'' away from your target so that the other 2 are still close enough to also attack it. This effectively reduces there threat to 10'' (if you want to attack the target with all 3) from a 11'' threat, which matters but I'm not sure by how much.

You could also put them in a formation that sorta looks like this =_= were the two front models are only slightly in front of the back one which I think increases the threat front 10" a little bit if you are willing to risk loosing the armor bonus if the middle one goes down. I'm not sure if a strait line is an option because I'm not quite sure if the two on ether side are further away from a target right in front of the middle model.

So what do you think would be best for damage, survivability, and/or threat range and is there anything I'm missing, any formation that I missed?

[whats82]

I usually run them in a triangle formation.

Yaro and Volkov in the front. Kolsk in the back.

You can tell which one I beleive is more important.

Usually they're behind something else too, like shock troopers or ironfangs, I rarely if ever leave great bears exposed by themselves if I can help it.

[unbanned]

Best 3 man unit in the game. Triangle formation, run them behine shield wall pikes or b2b heavy cav

[Cuagau]

I happen to think all the 3 man character units in the game are wonderful. Great models, fluff, and absolutely deadly. I've just added the Bears to my 15pts for a 20pt tourney in February. Hiding behind my wall of Khadoran Steel (Drago and Two Berserkers)!

[Gedaning]

well unfortunately no such sheild wall in my army this is the army I'm using them with:

Forward Kommander Sorscha (*6pts)
* Beast-09 (11pts)
* Destroyer (9pts)
Great Bears of Gallowswood (5pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* 3 Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeers (3pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
Ogrun Bokur (3pts)

I suppose I could have them behind my Beast 09 end/or my destroyer for protection and them peal of from there to strike what it needs to or corrodinate there attack with one or two of the warjacks.

You think that keeping two in the front and one in the back is best, so I guess two models attacking is enough?

[Avecrien]

If you charge a medium or large model, wouldn't the back guy have LoS with the new melee rules?

[unbanned]

If you charge a medium or large model, wouldn't the back guy have LoS with the new melee rules?

Yes.

@Gedaning, Iron Flesh on Daaaaa Bears is almost cheating haha
pow 12 weapon master on the charge under her feat is gonna be awesome. Have fun and good luck.

My only list advice is to take out the Bokur for a Field gun and the wardog. Im sorry I use the FG in every list with Joe or EIrusk the 16" crit KD is MVP. 1pt for no free strikes, counter charge, +2 def in meele and tough is just plain auto include...... for me anyway

[Gedaning]

hm on pg. 43 it says under the third step for determining LOS "the line must not pass over an intervening model that has a base size equal or larger then model B[your target]" So ya I guess that means that the model in the back can attack can attack through the two in the front as long as I'm attacking a medium or large base model. So I guess the triangle formation with one in the back and the other two in front of him is almost always the optimal formation because against most small base models, namely solos, the 4 attacks should be enough to take them out anyway even if not all of them hit.

[samuelstockton]

I usually keep Volkov or whatever the leaders name is in the back since he is the officer. You need to keep him alive so they don't depend on other people for the charge order.

[Gedaning]

But according to the MKII rules when the leader dies another grunt replaces the leader (so I would basically loose relentless charge but I could still do a regular charge). Is he not replaced because there all character models and none of them are grunts?

[whats82]

Volkov is the leader and grants relentless charge, but kolsk is the one giving steady (which is the ability you need if by some fluke they survive with tough, to allow them to charge back).

It depends, against circle opponent fielding megalith, I'll put volkov in the back, but generally kolsk is more valuable to me.

[samuelstockton]

@Gedaning: I believe if Volkov dies then they themselves cannot give themselves the order. It's sad, I know.

[Zaqir]

I run triangle formation while moving up, Kolsk and Yarovich out front, Volkov in the back, When I charge i try to keep a b2b formation as best I can but to get optimal hits i usually try for a straight line formation, however sometimes I want them to do optimal damage and to spread out so i do with no hesitation,

[Pickles]

@Gedaning: I believe if Volkov dies then they themselves cannot give themselves the order. It's sad, I know.

Not true - one of the grunts becomes the unit leader. p72 prime2

[Avecrien]

But are they grunts as specifically named character models?

[Jiub]

The bears have no grunts.

[Gedaning]

ya do you think though against say a menoth player with pkreoss it would be more important to keep steady then the charge (esspecilly after you have charged once).

[Pickles]

But are they grunts as specifically named character models?

OK they are not grunts (probably) but the same rule on field promotion covers the case when there are no grunts - pick one to be leader.

[unbanned]

OK they are not grunts (probably) but the same rule on field promotion covers the case when there are no grunts - pick one to be leader.

100% correct, You will always have relentless charge

[unbanned]

ya do you think though against say a menoth player with pkreoss it would be more important to keep steady then the charge (esspecilly after you have charged once).

I think you have to promote someone to the 'leader' which grants the relentless charge, i need to go back and read it to be sure

[Rogue Sun]

100% correct, You will always have relentless charge

This is not true. Though one of the bears would be promoted to officer, the Relentless charge rule is only on Volkov, so if he is killed the other two bears lose that ability. One of them would be able to give a regular charge order, but relentless charge is lost with Volkov just as Steady or Circular vision would be lost if one of the other two went down.

[unbanned]

This is not true. Though one of the bears would be promoted to officer, the Relentless charge rule is only on Volkov, so if he is killed the other two bears lose that ability. One of them would be able to give a regular charge order, but relentless charge is lost with Volkov just as Steady or Circular vision would be lost if one of the other two went down.

You are right

[EricTehRed]

Are we in agreement that, for the most part, running them in Triangular Formation (two in front) means that you're only getting the attacks from the front line? The exception being if they are attacking a medium or larger base?

In so doing you trade 33.3% damage for better survivability after a hypothetical Counterattack.

What happened to playing like you've got a pair?

[Gedaning]

um most of the models were your going to need all 6 attacks are not going to be on small bases anyway exsept for warcasters in witch case if your on an assassination run you can configure them in a way that they all have LOS.

Quite frankly playing like you got a pair does not mean you do stupid things, and if you really need all 6 attacks then you can just create a small opening to allow for LOS but most of the time you are ether attacking models with medium or large bases or solos were you really don't need all 6 attacks.

[EricTehRed]

You make an excellent point my good man. I'm still a young buck and have much to learn.

[Cambeul]

I also use them in a Triangle Wedge formation (I will model Cheese Head Hats for them all) with one in the front as well.

Gernally charge in, throw Iron Flesh on them and then let them soak it all up in a whirlwind of axes.

[Creaux]

You can't attack over another model's base, even if you have line of sight. This is why Tall in the Saddle exists.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Wrong, Tall in the Saddle allows you to attack over smaller Intervening Models to models that are smaller.

Ie, under normal circumstances, a large based model can not attack over MoW to a small based model. But it CAN be attacked by the small based model. If the large based model has Tall in the Saddle then it CAN attack the small based model.

[DemonCalibre]

Upside down Triangle

Yaro + Volkov
.....Kolsk

Remember when you charge, just start with Yaro, and Volkov, if you need Kolsk to kill, his brothers have cleared LOS. You won't have to do this against most thigns that require 6 swings, since they will be big, if it is a caster it's worth losing D-line for the extra swings.

[Rosie]

V = Inverted wedge

Or i like the straight line formation. --- I like to have them spaced out in this way and have the leader one end. But still with the other end in command range.

A side wedge always throws off oppenents < or >

[mongre36]

As others triangle, no KD provider in the back.

In general the only problem I have with the Great Bears is finding a reason not to put them in every list.

[Ender_Melchior]

I don't have my cards with me, or the book with me at the moment, but don't they have Practiced Maneuvers with each other?

Only reason I don't know this off hand is that I usually run with eIrusk, so I never run into that problem, since he essentially gives everything within 10 inches of him "Attack through me!"

[DemonCalibre]

They do no Ender Melchior...

I am with Mongre though....They make basically every list, they are freaking awesome.

[Darloc]

This is not true. Though one of the bears would be promoted to officer, the Relentless charge rule is only on Volkov, so if he is killed the other two bears lose that ability. One of them would be able to give a regular charge order, but relentless charge is lost with Volkov just as Steady or Circular vision would be lost if one of the other two went down.

Just to add to this, people seems to get confuse between officer and unit leader. The unit leader (for example the sergeant for IFP) get replaced if it dies, however officer (like the IFP captain) are unique, if you loose them you loose the ability it brings. So if Volk dies you do not get relentless charge any more and you can't give order as well. As far as I know you do not get to promote a new unit leader as:
-none of the model is designated as unit leader, they have an officer.
-no model is a grunt, which is the model type you promote.
I might be wrong but that's how I play it, so correct me if I am!