Long Riders vs Uhlans

[PPS_Jack]

I have been reading a lot of negative comments regarding the Long Riders. While it is true that they lost some hit boxes, but so did all of the other heavy cavalry units.

I think a comparison between Long Riders and Uhlans will help bring this unit back into perspective.


Long Riders and Uhlans both cost 7/11.

Long Riders have 1 less movement and defense, but have 1 greater MAT.

On the charge Uhlans get Pow 12 impact attacks and 1 P+S16 charge attack. Long Riders get Pow 14 impact attacks and one P+S 14 charge attack.

So far these units feel pretty even to me, but the real difference shows after they stuck in.

Uhland get 1 P+S 10 attack and one Pow12 attack each round at MAT 6. Long Riders use the Bullrush order to get a Pow14 attack followed by a P+S 12 attack at MAT 7. Since the unit leader can no longer be assassinated Bullrush will always be an option in Mk II. I know which unit I would rather have.

Any of the Uhlans other ablities can be granted to the Long Riders if we need them (additional armor and pathfinder). Although it can be hard to keep the Longriders within the protective aura.

Try playing these guys with Grissel, using hoof it on the Kreil stone to help it keep up, or on the Long Riders so they can make Light cavalry jealous.

While it cannot be denied that Long Riders are less survivable than they used to be. I think you will find that they are more than a match for the other heavy cavalry options in the game.

[Brettman008]

Any of the Uhlans other ablities can be granted to the Long Riders if we need them (additional armor and pathfinder). Although it can be hard to keep the Longriders within the protective aura.


I feel this statement sums up the major problem with Trolls; we pay a buff tax.


I think you will find that they are more than a match for the other heavy cavalry options in the game.

I'm going to give my Long Riders the old college try this weekend to see how they fair but overall I'm not really seeing a great use for them. They're slow by cavalry standards and slamming jacks and beasts isn't what it use to be. Essentially, they have a 1 inch advantage over infantry. For 11 points I really think I'd rather have a unit of KW (almost as fast) or a unit of Champs (more durable and they pack more punch).

I truly hope I am pleasantly surprised.

[RabiTampa]

I feel this statement sums up the major problem with Trolls; we pay a buff tax.

Welcome to the Protectorate. where tax continue to increase with every release. :p

[PPS_Jack]

I feel this statement sums up the major problem with Trolls; we pay a buff tax.


The ability to place buffs where we need them is the Trollbloods greatest strength, not a weakness. The point I was making above is that the Long Riders are already a better unit than the Uhlans, even before you start buffing them.



they have a 1 inch advantage over infantry. For 11 points I really think I'd rather have a unit of KW (almost as fast) or a unit of Champs (more durable and they pack more punch).

I truly hope I am pleasantly surprised.

They have a 2" advantage over all of the Trollblood infantry, and reach. KW have to choose between fast or powerful. Long Riders are both. Champs are tough, but are as slow as molasses. Long Riders fill a niche.

I'm not saying you should always take the Long Riders, but you should certainly not take Champs or KW every time by default. All three of these units have different roles.

[Mutton]

Wait, aren't ulhans generally decried as well? I mean, I like them, but they kind of suck without Fury/battlelust.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Give them 8 wound boxes and I'll be fine with them.

[PPS_Jack]

Wait, aren't ulhans generally decried as well? I mean, I like them, but they kind of suck without Fury/battlelust.

I'm sure they have been decried on the forums, everything has.

However since the release of Superiority, and even after Mk II, most of the competent Khador players I know think that Uhlans are the best Cavalry in Warmachine.

[Mutton]

I'm sure they have been decried on the forums, everything has.

However since the release of Superiority, and even after Mk II, most of the competent Khador players I know think that Uhlans are the best Cavalry in Warmachine.


Not to be contrary, but general opinion almost everywhere I've been is that in mk2, Stormlances take the cake, I do love my Uhlans, but mk1 the Arcane Shielded, Marching Stormlances were far scarier; I think it was Haight who had taken them to insane lengths.

Overall, I like Long Riders. Perma. Reach, a great threat even if it's not quite WM cav high, the ability to slam; a good unit overall. Testing is needed of course, but hopefully they don't fall into the "heavy cav is 1pt higher than it should be tax" of WM.

[Cannibalbob]

I have been reading a lot of negative comments regarding the Long Riders. While it is true that they lost some hit boxes, but so did all of the other heavy cavalry units.

I think a comparison between Long Riders and Uhlans will help bring this unit back into perspective.



The problem is not with Longriders compared to Uhlans. The problem is that heavy cav in general is just highly costed and rather crappy overall. I still see light cav used a fair bit, but every person I know that owned heavy cav has either retired them from thier mkII armies or sold them on ebay.

The Longriders might be as good as Uhlans (although spd 7 is truly pitiful on something so easy to kill now), but I don't think Uhlans are anything very special in relation to thier cost either.

Champions hit harder. Kriel Warriors run just as fast (seriously...). All the Cav really has is slam - and I dunno if that alone is really worth it.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I definitely will be taking them with Borka. Mat 7 Pow 14 +3d6 (4d6 if super slam) with Pow 14+3d6 collaterals. Yes please. Chronicler will help out a touch on the charge damage.

I think they do compare well with Uhlans, but Uhlans are not what they were in mkI. They are toned down pretty heavily and many people don't think they are worth their price tag for the extra 2" threat range.

I think Long Riders are definitely better than Uhlans, and the more I look at them, the more I see potential. I think the Long Riders biggest advantage is the Pow 14 impacts and bull rush letting them get those in melee. Two mat 7 attacks, one Pow 12 reach and one Pow 14 no reach is not shabby.
Ferox only get two Pow 12s and they are both at Mat 6. Same armor with only one more defense and one more speed. Basically, we hit harder and more accurately, and have bull rush. They get steady and jump. Honestly, I think Long Riders are better than Ferox too. Now whether they are worth their points, time will tell.

[whats82]

You can compare impact POW14 and charge attack POW14 to another impact POW12 and charge POW16, but do take into consideration the requirement for impact is b2b, and that shortens your threat range by 2" if you want to count on impact, which for long rider puts them at 10" for impact, that's even shorter than spd6 reach infantry.

It's true that long riders can dish out damage more reliably once stuck in combat, but that's assuming they survive a turn. At 12/17, they are a lot easier to kill compare to Uhlan's 13/19 with defensive line. Those are just base stats though, when we put into account faction buffs and feats, both side can get to impressive numbers, but the consideration is always on whether the cost of the buffs are worth the benefits.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Oh. Depression.
Borka's feat reads warbeasts only get the bonus power attack damage and collateral. That depresses me a lot.

[Hocky]

What if we can have 6 points of health. Then we can boast about having a tougher Cavalry and finally brake the 5, 8, 10 mold. :)

[Sevwall]

Bull Rush is a pretty situational ability.

If Bull Rush Lets a model Charge, Slam, or Run, it would be good. Instead, you use it to slam with one, maybe two models, and then the rest of the unit runs because by now the slam lanes are totally clogged.

It is not a good ability. It has some use as a second attack, but only if all Longriders are engaged. If not, again, some will have to run for lack of an available slam.

I also find it funny that Pathfinder and extra ARM are dismissed as 'something we can give the unit'. Uhlans come with it, no buffs required. We require buffs to get it. Those two statements are not equal.

[Gorbad]

I'll be trying them tonight with Grissel against Legion. Will be interesting to see how they perform.

I don't think there problem is performance against other heavy cav units. But people don't seem terribly impressed by heavy cav at the moment. I'll admit to not having really looked at my Cygnar ones as I don't want to paint/assemble/use them, but I do like the Long Riders.
They just seems kind a fragile, especially compared to Champions. They always were a little easier to kill since you had less of them, but I suppose I'll find out.

Any bets on what turn they die on in my game against Legion? :p

[Sevwall]

How many you taking? Half on turnn 2, half on turn 3. You will make 1 attack with the unit, total.

Tell me how close I get.

[Cambeul]

Wait, aren't ulhans generally decried as well? I mean, I like them, but they kind of suck without Fury/battlelust.

Ulhans along with Long Riders are not a auto include like other units such as IFP's/Winter Guard or Kriel Warriors.

If you want to maximize their effectiveness you may have to use certain Warcasters or Buffing units to obtain that.

I played in a Tourney where my Ulhans pretty much did nothing for me till my 3rd game when they took out a Angelus, then died right after. It probably won me the game.

I have also used Long Riders to great effect, infact I think of them as one of the best in the game. Either to charge a hard target and kill it, which they can do, or run forward and use your perma reach to tie up units for when your Champions and Kriel Warriors arrive.

As for being Nerfed, all Cav got nerfed. Light Cav is a shadow of what it used to be (Thank God) and all Heavy Cav has 5hps.

Not all Cav is used the same in each Army, maybe you just have not figured out how to use your Long Riders effectively? (not to Mutton specifically, just a general statement)

[Scalpel]

The problem that I think most players are coming from is a simple one.

Unless you used eDoomy, or Rushed a Lot of them, you were out charged by a Small Rat, you still died to any real ranged fire power, and once you were in, you were at best a Tar-Pit Unit.

Horthol made the worth it in Mk1, as the Extra Dice on Impacts made all the difference, however you were then investing a lot into making them work. Fell Caller + Horthol + Rush/MobMentality (ie. Fury).

---------

What we gained was +1 MAT - Which is very nice! Means that after the charge turn, I'm not swinging a hammer about for fun alone, and the -2 Penalty from the Slam has gone too, so now 2 decent attacks in melee.

What we have lost is -1 ARM, -1 P+S, and the Extra Dice on Impact with Horthol, and 3 Wounds.

The -1 P+S isn't an issue ... and with the increased MAT losing the extra dice isn't as bad ... although the extra dice was nice for the Crit.

But the -1 ARM and -3 Wounds hit hard ...

But the MAIN problem is that, when you only have 1" extra Threat Range than IFP, etc... (ie. Any unit with SPD 6 and Reach) .... you kind of fell cheated. Any unit with SPD 6 can run and engange them before you get to charge ... SPD 5 with Reach can do the same.


The MK1 problems were keeping enough alive that when you finally did get a chance at a charge, you could actaully do some nice impact hits - which you have invested a lot of points for both the Cav + Horthol.


I think the problem is now people are seeing it as -1 ARM and -3 Wounds ... the won't live very long to do anytihng ... I mean they have Lower Wounds and ARM than Champions (in BtB), yet cost more for +2 SPD, Reach, -Weapon Master, -1 ARM, -3 Wounds.

The whole KSB is a mute point ... we had the same in MK1 and they still wasn't the best unit on the table.


I know a lot of the infantry SPD+5" Charges are gone, so it does mean that finally Cav will get to do what they were suposed to do (i.e. be a faster hard hitting melee unit), but the difference between a SPD 8 and SPD 7 in this game is huge.

----------

I'll try them out at the weekend ... because I did used to love using them, just for the visuals alone ;)

[Mutton]

Ulhans along with Long Riders are not a auto include like other units such as IFP's/Winter Guard or Kriel Warriors.

If you want to maximize their effectiveness you may have to use certain Warcasters or Buffing units to obtain that.

I played in a Tourney where my Ulhans pretty much did nothing for me till my 3rd game when they took out a Angelus, then died right after. It probably won me the game.

I have also used Long Riders to great effect, infact I think of them as one of the best in the game. Either to charge a hard target and kill it, which they can do, or run forward and use your perma reach to tie up units for when your Champions and Kriel Warriors arrive.

As for being Nerfed, all Cav got nerfed. Light Cav is a shadow of what it used to be (Thank God) and all Heavy Cav has 5hps.

Not all Cav is used the same in each Army, maybe you just have not figured out how to use your Long Riders effectively? (not to Mutton specifically, just a general statement)

Personally, I think I've figured out Uhlans pretty well. With pButcher/pIrusk, you Iron Flesh and Blizzard them moving up the field, then Fury/Battlelust when you need to kill something dead. IHG can keep enemies from tying them up, and both feats help them in making sure stuff dies. They are a 50pt level unit, and a decent choice. I don't think we'll see them in a large amount of tourny lists though. Personally, I think all WM Heavy Cav should either drop a point or raise a point and get 8 wounds back. Light cav (aka Soul Hunters) are perfect. Ferox don't impress me, and although I like Long Riders, they don't scream "use me" like Kriel Warriors, the Pyre Troll, or whatnot. I do like all the light cav though.


PPS_Jack, if I made a topic summarizing my thoughts on how cavalry worked overall in the game and what I think they can/can't do along with what I believe most players want out of them in the hordes FT section, could you chime in with your insider's perspective? I don't want to bother you, but I love my cavalry, and although they needed a nerf, I'd like to see what PP's view is on what most players seem to feel was an overnerf.

[Strange_Eric]

While it cannot be denied that Long Riders are less survivable than they used to be. I think you will find that they are more than a match for the other heavy cavalry options in the game.

If you want to use them to their fullest strength, they're going to be out of range for the majority of the buffs they could be getting, in which case, why have speed 7 if you're not going to use it?

Sure you can bring up Hoof It, which makes them marginally usefull, if not good. But thats one caster, are we honestly going to print a unit that has a tagline "crap, but great with one caster"? That doesn't scream balanced to me.

Slam is hardly a huge deal, Large base means limited amount of arcs to get in their slams, command range keeps it in a smaller bubble. If you tell me I have to bring the Solo, then the units price is now 16pts not 11. And even then the solo just gives them an ability they should have had in the first place.

To be worth their price, give them follow up, and +1 ARM.
Thats an 11pt unit.

Switch out Horthol's ability to the Tactician ability the Hero has, make sure he has CMD 10

Suddenly the Long Riders are effective yet still costly.

[Cannibalbob]

What if we can have 6 points of health. Then we can boast about having a tougher Cavalry and finally brake the 5, 8, 10 mold. :)


And die to a pow-23 hit instead of a pow-22! Hooray!

[bakaryu]

Long Riders themselves got hurt pretty badly with their changes there is no disputing that, however I think that a simple way to improve them would be to give a (somewhat) redundant ability on the Trollkin Hero to Horthol:

Tactician [Long Riders]
While within this models command area, Long Riders can ignore other friendly Long Riders for movement and line of sight etc etc etc.

This would help fix the problems with Long Riders getting in each others way when setting up slams from Bull Rush and shouldn't heavily impact on Horthol's points cost (he is already more expensive than all the other hordes dragoons).

[Cannibalbob]

Tactician [Long Riders]
While within this models command area, Long Riders don't totally suck monkey ba.lls


I think thats not a bad ability.

[The Anders]

Come on now..

It is not that hard to get a slam line with the new unit formation ruels.

[bakaryu]

Come on now..

It is not that hard to get a slam line with the new unit formation ruels.

No, but the tactic would also be great in combination with followup so you don't get stuck clipping each other's bases.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Just checking, because I never actually did a Bull Rush in mkI unless I was already in melee, and the rules worked differently.

Do you resolve all movement and then attacks? i.e. move Long Rider A, Long Rider B, Long Rider C. Resolve slam with Long Rider A, Long Rider B, Long Rider C.
Or do you Slam Long Rider A, including move and attack. Slam Long rider B, including move and attack, Slam Long Rider C move and attack.

If it is the second, the slam range on Long Riders is 10" and the leader is CMD 9, so you can easily move out of command if you are not careful, which means no slam for you I believe.
Also, if it is the second, when do you make the free attack after slamming?

[bakaryu]

Slam movement are still done during movement and the unit moves as a unit but attacks individually, so all move into position, then you resolve slam plus attack one by one.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Good, that makes me relieved.

[Sevwall]

Come on now..

It is not that hard to get a slam line with the new unit formation ruels.

Yes, getting a single slam line is not hard. I sure hope its worth the rest of my 11 point unit running instead of charging.

If Bull Rush allowed a Charge or Run the LR's would be far closer to fine, and Follow Up might be more than words on a card.

[Gorbad]

How many you taking? Half on turnn 2, half on turn 3. You will make 1 attack with the unit, total.

Tell me how close I get.
Okay, I've had my first game with them and this is how they performed.
I took 3 because that's all I own(and could afford). Had first turn and moved them up. Taking advantage of a giant menofex I could hide two of them from the Raptors on the other side of the table but the 5 raptors promptly moved up and kill the exposed one. He was outside the KSB aura but there were also Raptors to spare on the kill.

Second turn was spent shuffling around a bit, hiding.
Third turn saw Grissel pop her feat and one of them charged two raptors and the other charged two Swordsmen. Killed the two raptors, but only one Swordsman.
The one near the Raptors then promptly got shot to pieces.
The remaining one somehow ended up in melee with 3 Swordsmen, without having been attack. And I honestly can't remember how that happened.

Fourth turn had the last Long Rider charge a Swordsman in the back of the unit(He got War Cry as well), and killing all three models around him with impact attacks he killed that model too.

And then got killed in a single hit from a Swordsman in retaliation(having taken two points of damage earlier from a single shot from a Raptor).

So I think finally tally was two Raptors and 6 Swordsmen killed by them.
They didn't seemed terribly difficult for the Legion model to kill, even with the KSB. I did try to hide them from attacks so that would actually last and they hit hard when they did get to charge, but they didn't stand up to direct attacks much at all. Of course they were being attacked by weapon masters too.

Overall much as I expected. They hit hard, but they are not resilient. I also had to use Rush on them so they had the range to charge out and hit stuff initially.

(As a side note my Slag Troll was completely useless all game. He never got to shoot and he spent most of the game being frenzied. So not a good test of him at all. However Scattergunners against a Carnivian with Calamity on it was fun. But damn that's one scary beast!)

[Patuljak]

And this is what is wrong. They're slow and they're squishy. I mean, come on, they're armor-clad trolls riding phat buffalos! How can they have ARM17 and 5 hit boxes?

It's just wrong, especially for 7/11 pts.

[Waaargh]

Cavalry is now highly specialized, and unlike a unit like KW or champs you need to have plan with them right from the start. Cavalry have speed, if that is not being used to the maximum you will be better off with heavy infantry. Some warlocks can make them go even faster and/or longer - Borka, Grissel and Madrak. I have been making a few posts about Long Riders, exploring their speed options and speed in general. I'll add a new point:

When are Long Riders needed? Against Haley they are golden to break through TB to engage, and they can be used to get the jump against other hard hitters. They can also be used to gain speed for an otherwise slow faction, without having to resort to eDoomy or Borka, for the price of a single heavy warbeast (don't get nitpicky now ;)).

[unclebiggins]

After playing a game with the with Borka there is absolutely nothing wrong wtih there offensive power. They just need an ARM buff. ARM 18 and they are fixed in my eyes. They died very very very easily and while 1SPD seems trivial, it really hurts the unit when trying to get charges up against other infantry.

I will say again, there is nothing wrong with them offensively. They managed to kill 3 Accuari and an extoller with slams that also killed a swamp gobber and knocked down another Accuari. They then died to a single AG and a Savage.

While that seems balanced, I leveraged alot of focus and recourses into that charge to create a whole and hoped/expected that it would require an investment by my enemy to eliminate them. It was a bit easy, one AG would have done it if I had bunched them together more.

[Cannibalbob]

I will say again, there is nothing wrong with them offensively.


I don't think anyone believes they can't put out damage. They are simply slow, easy to kill, and expensive.

I am not sure if those downfalls cancel out the bonus that they hit hard (a lot of our stuff hits hard...).

[rydiafan]

Champs have 8 wounds. Put them on a mount and they have 5 wounds. The heck?!

[bensliver]

A full unit of kriel warriors costs 6 points. This is a good unit, comparable to other units in their price range in and out of faction. The only sure fire way for a unit of long riders to get the first hit on the kriel warriors is to forgo impact attacks. So, if both units are unsupported and pitted against eachother it can work out just a few ways as far as I can tell.

First off the warriors run to engage the long riders and get hit with 6 attacks on the next turn (average 4 casualties). The turn after that they most likely wipe out or severly reduce the long riders the following turn (even if there are no warriors positioned to counter charge, for whatever reason, things look bad for the long riders). This is the best case scenerio.

Next up there is the possibility of the long riders running to engage the kriel warriors. The kriel warriors will most likely kill the entire unit in return, not a great strategy.

The next possibility would be that the long riders forgo their impact attacks in order to make a first strike. The kriel warriors take 3 attacks (average 2 casualties). This works out the same as the other two.

If the long riders try to make their impact attacks it is impossible to tell who would get the charge, it depends too much on terrain and such.

Based on this mental exercise I have come to the conclusion that long riders do not compare favorably to kriel warriors, while kriel warriors are comparable to other infantry in it's price range (such as steelheads) and the games I have played with them support this conclusion.

[Brettman008]

A full unit of kriel warriors costs 6 points. This is a good unit, comparable to other units in their price range in and out of faction. The only sure fire way for a unit of long riders to get the first hit on the kriel warriors is to forgo impact attacks. So, if both units are unsupported and pitted against eachother it can work out just a few ways as far as I can tell.

First off the warriors run to engage the long riders and get hit with 6 attacks on the next turn (average 4 casualties). The turn after that they most likely wipe out or severly reduce the long riders the following turn (even if there are no warriors positioned to counter charge, for whatever reason, things look bad for the long riders). This is the best case scenerio.

Next up there is the possibility of the long riders running to engage the kriel warriors. The kriel warriors will most likely kill the entire unit in return, not a great strategy.

The next possibility would be that the long riders forgo their impact attacks in order to make a first strike. The kriel warriors take 3 attacks (average 2 casualties). This works out the same as the other two.

If the long riders try to make their impact attacks it is impossible to tell who would get the charge, it depends too much on terrain and such.

Based on this mental exercise I have come to the conclusion that long riders do not compare favorably to kriel warriors, while kriel warriors are comparable to other infantry in it's price range (such as steelheads) and the games I have played with them support this conclusion.

Well put sir. Long Riders need either greater threat range or more survivability. Honestly, about the only thing I would run them in to are ranged units such as ATGM. However, there is a good chance at 5 wounds my Riders will be shot down before making initial contact.

[Sevwall]

I have made list after list, and they have made it into none of them. Horthol hasn't either, but he might later on (Refuge + Horthol = fun).

[Cambeul]

What if they got what Ulhans, Great Bears and Champions got, while in b2b you get +2 ARM? though it causes them to clump up, it would increase their survivability a bit.

[Sevwall]

Its nice, but further reduces any chances of getting more than 1 or 2 slams. I would rather they fix Bull Rush. Especially because Horthol does nothing for them if they cann't effectively Bull Rush.

Let them Charge or Run or Slam.

[unclebiggins]

Played another game with them.....+1 ARM please. They range too far ahead to be buffed easily by KSB or others, they have poor DEF, not fantasic ARM and low hitboxes. There charge threat range is equal to many troopers, their damage output not considerably better.

[Strange_Eric]

Come on now..

It is not that hard to get a slam line with the new unit formation ruels.

Ignore cohesion for now, just take into account that large base models have a hard time _as a unit_ being able
to all slam different models.
Those that can will find the Unit Cohesion rules a bit taxing by how much you need to keep clear.
Slams are unlike anything else any other Cav model can utilize because they have to move in straight lines.
However if their rules were like that of Kreoss or the Seneschal where they can make a normal "charge" and then slam
that'd be different. And honestly it'd be a great fix imho if a wording like that could see light of day for the unit.

[Gorbad]

What if they got what Ulhans, Great Bears and Champions got, while in b2b you get +2 ARM? though it causes them to clump up, it would increase their survivability a bit.

No thank you. Trolls already play in a big brick. Long Riders are one of the units that's sort of trying to break out of that a little. Forcing them to brick up to be survivable would be very disappointing.

Honestly I'd just like to see them with 8 wounds. It seems weird the Trolls only get 5 wound cav and it would give them a small bump to there survivability. It might require an extra attack to kill them then.


+1 ARM and +3 HP would start making them an effective shock/flank unit.

[FranzGrenstein]

What if they got what Ulhans, Great Bears and Champions got, while in b2b you get +2 ARM? though it causes them to clump up, it would increase their survivability a bit.


How about Unyielding; the point for them is to get stuck in, and a 12" threat helps there.

[Patuljak]

Sorry to pipe in with a useless comment but I would just like to add my voice:


+1 ARM and +3 HP would start making them an effective shock/flank unit.

I support this. If they got those buffs I'd be totally sweet with them, even if they have to go down to MAT 6 again.

[bloodstrike]

I can completely understand everybody clamoring for 8 wounds to be brought back, but seriously it is a waste of breath. Every other cavalry unit in both games went down to 5 wounds. Why you ask? Look at almost every tournament winning list that was in No Quarter. The only one that sticks in my head was the Harby/Testament list that always had 9 Vengers in it. Nine 8 wound weaponmasters that you could revive with full health. On top of the insanity it was to get rid of them, the cost of buying that is nearly $200.

The change was no only to make cavalry less of a game winning unit due to their much higher speed and, in situations, much easier ability to clear out infantry (impact attacks, tall in the saddle, etc) - but level the playing field between people who would dump $200 on cavalry and people who couldn't. Now I don't feel like I'm going to loose just because I don't have cavalry - the cavalry is on par with all the other kinds of infantry you can take, just fills a different role.

[Gorbad]

Were Long Riders dominating? The big tough unit in the Trollblood army was the Champions, and it still is. They probably outdo the Long Riders for straight damage output too.

Yes, Cav needed to be rebalanced, but I don't think Long Riders were ever in the dominating group of cav. They are not even that fast, there are infantry units that are just as fast as they are.

Also, every factions Cav does something different. I see no problem at all with Long Riders thing being having more wounds. They are Trolls!

[Endgame]

I think the thing of it for me is, it's Trolls on freaking Buffalo! That kind of makes you expect to see the toughest Cav in the game. Vengers and Uhlans can situationally self buff to arm 19. Storm Lances will be running around with Arcane Shield most likely, though they don't natively buff the AS is still available in every list. And yet Long Riders are tied for the least durability of heavy Cav in the game.

When I was thinking Long Riders in MKII, I wasn't thinking Cav that could slam, I was thinking SPD7, Arm 18 or even Arm 19 as well as 8 boxes and few other rules. Have Horthol give Granted: bull rush if you want to keep the slamming ability on the Long Riders, but make them the toughest cav in the game.

As for normalized damage, I ran the numbers between Uhlans and Long Riders:

Long Rider Impacting and charging A:

Iron Clad: 8.9165 Damage / Long Rider
Crusader: 7.584 Damage / Long Rider
Juggernaught: 5.954 Damage / Long Rider

Uhlan Impacting and charging A:
Iron Clad: 8.915 Damage / Uhlan
Crusader: 8.183 Damage / Uhlan
Juggernaught: 6.833 Damage / Uhlan

You should also assess a minimum of an 8.3% penalty on the Long Rider's Chage damage because the Uhlans have a 8.3% longer charge range, and a 10% penality on the impact damage due to the Uhlans 10% longer impact range.

Crit Knockdown exists on both mounts, but the Uhlans have Crit Knockdown on the lance, +1 Def and +2 situational Arm, as well as pathfinder on the charge. In a straight comparison, the Uhlans seem to have a solid edge, though it all depends on how much you value Slams, Tough, and Fearless.

[Cambeul]

Depends on the game really, I have had games where my Cav (Long Riders, Ulhans, Soul Hunters) have done nothing but look pretty.

Other games I have them wrecking heavy Warjacks on the charge, trampling (impact attacks) Infantry units.

Some games they will be Devistating, others a Destraction, just have to know how and when to use them.

Small Tactic since they have Tall in Saddle, and Reach I have used them to attack over Champs or KW to free them up.

[Mael]

When I was thinking Long Riders in MKII, I wasn't thinking Cav that could slam, I was thinking SPD7, Arm 18 or even Arm 19 as well as 8 boxes and few other rules. Have Horthol give Granted: bull rush if you want to keep the slamming ability on the Long Riders, but make them the toughest cav in the game.

I don't even care if they go up one or two points, they really need those extra wounds and that ARM buff. 8 wounds and +1ARM would solve all of the problems I have with them and more.

Right now a full unit costs 11 points
That's the same as:
- Mulg
- 10 Kriel Warriors + Standard and Piper + Two Caber Throwers(!)
- 5 Weaponmaster 8 Wound Champs -and- Swamp Gobbers

I'm sorry, I just don't see how they stack up.

[General Nemo]

I'm sure they have been decried on the forums, everything has.

However since the release of Superiority, and even after Mk II, most of the competent Khador players I know think that Uhlans are the best Cavalry in Warmachine.

This.
I will be fielding my minimum Uhlans in MK 2 the same way as I did before. The loss of 3/5 hit boxes will not matter to me.

The case is the same for my Long Riders, no matter how much I will miss how durable they are.

Is it safe to assume that Long Riders are amongst the models that will not change in the field test, Jack?

[Maudlin]

I think one of the problems here is how everyone is using them. I keep reading references to them 'ranging ahead' and 'getting stuck in', and how that requires them to get more armor.

I would not see them as the late-medieval knights, steelclad noble sons charging into a rabble of poorly armed peasants for an afternoon's entertainment. There are no peasants on the battlefields of the Iron Kingdoms. Very few units can survive an unsupported charge into the teeth of an opponent's army, and cavalry was certainly not meant to provide that role in WM/H, even if they could be made to in MkI.

Instead, see them as the heavy cavalry of antiquity. Alexander perfected the Hammer & Anvil cavalry tactics, and the fellow apparently did quite alright for himself. The cavalry would range on the flanks, and as soon as the infantry locked the opponent's army in place, the cavalry would smash into it, then get out again to repeat the manoeuver while the infantry mopped up. They would never survive an engagement by themselves.

That seems like a perfectly appropriate tactic for Heavy Cavalry in WM/H, and the Longriders in particular. Engage something with Kriels or Champions on one turn, then on the next trample it with impact attacks or Bull Rush to knock over the tidy ranks of opponents. The infantry will have an easy time finishing up.

There's a reason all the abilities of Heavy Cavalry are predicated on charges. It's what they're meant to be doing. You CAN also use their speed to engage something ahead of everyone else, in a pinch, but then you should fully expect them to die.

[General Nemo]

I think one of the problems here is how everyone is using them. I keep reading references to them 'ranging ahead' and 'getting stuck in', and how that requires them to get more armor.

I would not see them as the late-medieval knights, steelclad noble sons charging into a rabble of poorly armed peasants for an afternoon's entertainment. There are no peasants on the battlefields of the Iron Kingdoms. Very few units can survive an unsupported charge into the teeth of an opponent's army, and cavalry was certainly not meant to provide that role in WM/H, even if they could be made to in MkI.

Instead, see them as the heavy cavalry of antiquity. Alexander perfected the Hammer & Anvil cavalry tactics, and the fellow apparently did quite alright for himself. The cavalry would range on the flanks, and as soon as the infantry locked the opponent's army in place, the cavalry would smash into it, then get out again to repeat the manoeuver while the infantry mopped up. They would never survive an engagement by themselves.

That seems like a perfectly appropriate tactic for Heavy Cavalry in WM/H, and the Longriders in particular. Engage something with Kriels or Champions on one turn, then on the next trample it with impact attacks or Bull Rush to knock over the tidy ranks of opponents. The infantry will have an easy time finishing up.

There's a reason all the abilities of Heavy Cavalry are predicated on charges. It's what they're meant to be doing. You CAN also use their speed to engage something ahead of everyone else, in a pinch, but then you should fully expect them to die.
I have a weird way of using the hammer and anvil that is more self-destructive than the traditional means.

I tend to hold front line models in places (infantry) with my cavalry's speed, then follow up the next turn with a charge from my infantry, since my cavalry are likely dead. This insures that I get the first strike and the forward momentum that is important in this game.

Now I do this with Khador, predominantly, but the Long Riders are equally suited to the job, if not more so, since they have high armor and a permanent, moderately powerful, reach weapon. Once they get stuck in, they can still fight and kill infantry.

I would not send these guys out to fight 'jacks unless they had some serious backup, but I could see this guys hurting beasts pretty badly.

[Endgame]

I think one of the problems here is how everyone is using them. I keep reading references to them 'ranging ahead' and 'getting stuck in', and how that requires them to get more armor.

The Long Rider's use depends on the context of Trolls specifically, the designer's intent, and at least in some part, the Community's vision.

Trolls are a slow faction, though buffable on the individual model level. They are Hard and Tough and are encouraged to stay in tight formation to gain the maximum benefits of the Krielstone bearer.

Standard Cavalry in a Troll force wouldn't fit -- SPD 8 would allow them to negate a large portion of the Troll's Designed Weakness (Units able to move quickly). You also can't have the high Pow Vengers and Uhlan's have for two reasons. 1) With the Troll strength & melee buffs, P+S 16 Long Riders would be easily boostable to P+S 19+ which would be to damaging to jacks / beasts. 2) It would negate the role of the much slower champions who have damage output as their main trait.

So what happens to the Long Riders? Their speed is reduced to 7 so they aren't substantially faster than other troll models. The P+S is dropped to 12 so they don't out damage most other Troll models when engaged, though brutal charge is added so they at least compete with other cav on the Charge (Long riders are tied for least damaging Heavy Cav without buffs). Because the Long Rider's are trolls they stay a Def 12 (tied for lowest def heavy cav with 2 other units beating them by 1).

Unfortunately, the Long Riders don't gain much to offset their drop in effectiveness in comparison to other Cav. Their mount is boosted by 2 pow which makes impact attacks more effective, but their slower speed reduces the range of the effectiveness of the impact attacks. Long Riders are granted the ability to slam at Mat 7, but its value depends on how much you value a 10" slam.

I think Troll players want a unit that can roam free of the Krielstone bearer's Protective Aura (and other buff ranges) while still remaining durable and able to hold the line until the rest of the list can show up. While this doesn't match the standard template of cavalry in MKII, is it too much to ask for one unit to not fit the template (considering it already is a deviation from the template to start with)?

[Cambeul]

I think Maudlin and General Nemo have the right idea in how to use their Cav.

As for being too fast, and reducing the Speed, I think you have it wrong.

Looking at almost all of the Cav they all follow a similar patern.

IFP's -> IFH's
+2 SPD, same DEF, +3 ARM (also have a Pseudo Shield Wall)

Storm Blades -> Storm Cav
+3 SPD, same DEF, +2 ARM

Knights -> Knight Cav
+3 SPD, same DEF, +2 ARM

Praetorian -> Ferox
+2 SPD, same DEF, +3 ARM

KW -> Long Riders
+2 SPD, same DEF, +2 ARM (also +2 MAT)

All have SPD 8, but LR (SPD 7), all have ARM 17.
None have Perma Reach but Ferox, and Long Riders (Soul Hunters too)

I think compared to other Cav, Long Riders stack up pretty evenly.

Endgame you talk about DMG output:

IFH's 16 on Charge, 10 after that (average DMG roll would be about 17)(this is made up for allowing the mount to attack) [Certain Casters can give out Fury/Battle Lust]

Venger's 14 on Charge, 9 Weapon Master (average DMG roll would be about 19)[not sure what Caster Buffs they can get]

Long Riders 14 on Charge, 12 after that (average DMG roll would be 19, same as Venger's)(also can Bullrush while engaged allowing for Bison to attack at POW 14, even though no Slam)[basically only have Flaming Fists, Acidic Touch, or Rage for DMG Boosting]

So I think on the whole they match up all pretty equally.

I think Unyeilding would be a neat upgrade, or even Defensive Line (though I know people do not like the bricking up) But I am fine with 5hp.

[Cannibalbob]

That seems like a perfectly appropriate tactic for Heavy Cavalry in WM/H, and the Longriders in particular. Engage something with Kriels or Champions on one turn, then on the next trample it with impact attacks or Bull Rush to knock over the tidy ranks of opponents. The infantry will have an easy time finishing up.



Base sizes really make charging a unit of large-base models into a melee involving med-based models a pain.

I don't really see any benefit from using Longriders as a second-wave than simply doing the same thing with a unit of champions. The Champions cost less points and will clean up just as much, if not more, due to ease of placement.

[Endgame]

All have SPD 8, but LR (SPD 7), all have ARM 17.
None have Perma Reach but Ferox, and Long Riders (Soul Hunters too)

You forgot Storm Lances. 3 of 5 Heavy Cav have Perma Reach.



Endgame you talk about DMG output:
*trimmed*
So I think on the whole they match up all pretty equally.

I can run the normalized damage numbers (% chance to hit * % chance to roll each roll that will damage * damage of that roll) for anything you would like. As shown in my earlier post, Uhlans out damage Long Riders, but the extra point of Mat on the Long Riders does help them to about even against higher def targets.

If you want to include buffing it starts to get really complicated to compare. Khador adds offensive buffs to the whole unit, but can't offensively buff in every list. Cygnar can Defensively buff in every list, and situationally buff offense. Trolls buff single models, but don't really do unit buffs (except for the Krielstone).

[The Happy Anarchist]

Unyielding would be extremely helpful I think. It would let them get stuck in much better.

Long Riders just don't work the same way other cavalry does. They are slower and easier to engage. They have to be much more careful. The real trouble comes when KWs are almost as fast and Fennblades have reach. Champs are tougher and hit harder. In almost any role you need them for, we have cheaper units that will better fill that role.

[Cambeul]

Most Heavy Cav is only 2" faster than most Infantry in any given Faction.

There are exceptions to some, but for most this is the norm.

[Sevwall]

Unyielding would be nice.

[rydiafan]

I can completely understand everybody clamoring for 8 wounds to be brought back, but seriously it is a waste of breath. Every other cavalry unit in both games went down to 5 wounds.


And most solos went down to 5 wounds as well, but not ours. We aren't humans, we are trollkins.

Champs have 8 wounds, Heroes have 8 wounds, Fell Callers have eight wounds, and Long Riders should have 8 wounds.

[Strange_Eric]

Troll do _not_ need yet another back up unit to come swinging in from the back ranks.
We have that in spades, in fact you can say most of our army has that.
The problem with the Long Riders is that they don't seem to work on the level that they were designed for.
The essence of the unit is "Hardy Heavy Cav Unit that can Slam"
Well can they slam? not effectively. Thats a huge point of contention. And compared to a lot of other
heavy cav we don't have the resilience in our favor anymore. 1 point of Armor would make a world of
difference. I'd like there to be a Troll unit that doesn't need the KSB to follow it around haphazardly making my
super fast offensive unit glued in place. It doesn't make any sense tactically.
They're cav, i want to be able to flank with them and do other things that fast units do.
I'm ok with their Damage output, their MAT, SPD and DEF. Just not their rules.
Someone suggestd adding "Charge, SLam or Run" to Bull rush, this is a good idea I think.

[Maudlin]

Base sizes really make charging a unit of large-base models into a melee involving med-based models a pain.

I don't really see any benefit from using Longriders as a second-wave than simply doing the same thing with a unit of champions. The Champions cost less points and will clean up just as much, if not more, due to ease of placement.
That's why you would ideally want to charge them in from the side, where you can get impact attacks and/or the best slam lineups. If you can't get at them from the side, Reach gives them a considerable edge over champions as a second wave, you can attack through the gaps.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yeah, bull rush should probably change to slam, charge or run.

[ChronoCrusher]

For Trolls, some changes have been great, some are...different, and some make me wonder what the hell the designers are thinking...or if they are thinking. Cavalry has been neutered for the most part, but they did have all sorts of abilities and infaction spells that could make them insane (I am not sure it warranted dropping their health so low). Our guys rumbled along, relatively slowly, took a punch and then tore the other guys head off...most of the time. Simple, unassuming and about as untricksy as it gets. Can't we go back to the good, old...well, the old days of our heavy cavalry?

[Cambeul]

For Trolls, some changes have been great, some are...different, and some make me wonder what the hell the designers are thinking...or if they are thinking. Cavalry has been neutered for the most part, but they did have all sorts of abilities and infaction spells that could make them insane (I am not sure it warranted dropping their health so low). Our guys rumbled along, relatively slowly, took a punch and then tore the other guys head off...most of the time. Simple, unassuming and about as untricksy as it gets. Can't we go back to the good, old...well, the old days of our heavy cavalry?

You and pretty much everyone else will say that about their own Cavalry.

I know Khador feels the same way about their Ulhans.

[Cannibalbob]

You and pretty much everyone else will say that about their own Cavalry.

I know Khador feels the same way about their Ulhans.


I don't really care what they do with our cav - as long as they give me compelling reasons to actually use them.

As is they simply cost a bucket-load of points, are slow, and completely made of glass. Thats an all-round bad combination.

[kakita]

Ironically we're the same armor as elf cav. And elf cav have unyielding. I hope we can get our 1 point of arm back, or unyielding. Or both.

[General Nemo]

Speed 7 is not slow.
Speed 7 is not slow.
Speed 7 is not slow.

Slower than other cavalry, sure, but still not slow as a general rule. Spd 7 and ARM 17 is great for me, but I won't tout their greatness till I actually try them.

[mikasa]

I own a unit, like the models and concept about them. Maybe troll bloods should have tougher cavalry thematically, but I don't think it would make the unit any more functional than it is right now. It would just mean that you would be allowed to be a little less careful with them/ They shouldn't be upfront, and never in history has a good general used them as such - as pointed out by our Infernal. Cavalry doesn't just ride out front like in the movies. It uses it's speed to access flanks and sweep devastating charges.

They have great mounts for impacts and slams, they just need a smoother way to slam targets. Tactician would be a great asset from them, or at least grant them the ability to also charge as part of a Bull Rush. Since they have a unique mode of pain delivery, they should be able to do it well.

Grand Slam could also be something neat to look into to make them more appealing than champions. It gives them more utility and also alot better damage potential when slamming units. Champions will still soak best (and kill jacks/beast best) but cleaning out infantry would be the Long Rider's business.

They will always do well with Borka and Grissel, and quite possibly either Madrak editions. Since that's half our caster roster, I am quite happy with that.

[Cannibalbob]

Make them cheaper and I would probably use them.

[artificer]

I personally DON'T care about the speed. Sure, 7 is the slowest in the game, and that made them a little harder to use than EVERY other faction's cav. The drop in HP, ARM, and POW, WITHOUT the bump in speed is what bites for me.

Yes, I know the argument is that ALL cav got taken down a notch, but, again, we're TROLLS. We WILL be the slowest. We WILL be more expensive (to pay for tough). We SHOULD have some benefit that makes us different.

Bull Rush used to be an AWESOME way to control a whole board flank. Now with the new Shake it off, rule, the LR are going to get 1-2 good slams in, then be murdered by the same beasts/jacks they JUST slammed.

Mat 7 is handy, it means we may actually hit something besides a Khadoran jack, but I don't think the Mat bump is enough to justify the 11 points, with all else being equal.

[mikasa]

I personally DON'T care about the speed. Sure, 7 is the slowest in the game, and that made them a little harder to use than EVERY other faction's cav. The drop in HP, ARM, and POW, WITHOUT the bump in speed is what bites for me.

Yes, I know the argument is that ALL cav got taken down a notch, but, again, we're TROLLS. We WILL be the slowest. We WILL be more expensive (to pay for tough). We SHOULD have some benefit that makes us different.

Bull Rush used to be an AWESOME way to control a whole board flank. Now with the new Shake it off, rule, the LR are going to get 1-2 good slams in, then be murdered by the same beasts/jacks they JUST slammed.

Mat 7 is handy, it means we may actually hit something besides a Khadoran jack, but I don't think the Mat bump is enough to justify the 11 points, with all else being equal.

That's exactly what the problem was. They shouldn't be able to neuter a jack/beast for an entire game. And they shouldn't going after them either. They aren't designed for that.

[The Anders]

Long riders are fast inf not slow cav. If you think about it like that they are not that bad ;)

[artificer]

That's exactly what the problem was. They shouldn't be able to neuter a jack/beast for an entire game. And they shouldn't going after them either. They aren't designed for that.

How could they possibly neuter a jack for the entire game?

If heavy cav AREN'T designed for hitting heavy targets, and don't have enough attacks to break a mass of infantry up, then just what ARE they designed for?

Horthol's 'Line Breaker' when away, so they lost THAT. They now don't have the wounds or armour to effectively smash into a flank and cause a tie-up for more than a turn or two.

WHAT do they do for their 11 points?

[Cannibalbob]

I would actually rather have Steelhead Cavalry than Longriders.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Speed 7 is not slow.
Speed 7 is not slow.
Speed 7 is not slow.

Slower than other cavalry, sure, but still not slow as a general rule. Spd 7 and ARM 17 is great for me, but I won't tout their greatness till I actually try them.

No. Speed 7 is not slow. But Kriel Warriors are 4/6, and Cabers actually hit harder.
I have a hard time taking 3-5 frail Long riders for 7/11 over 7/9 for a unit of Kriel Warriors with 3 cabers.

[rexaroo]

i want them to have higher armor as they are mainly flankers and are almost never in the krielstone aura anyway.

[General Nemo]

No. Speed 7 is not slow. But Kriel Warriors are 4/6, and Cabers actually hit harder.
I have a hard time taking 3-5 frail Long riders for 7/11 over 7/9 for a unit of Kriel Warriors with 3 cabers.

Then that is your choice.
Personally, I would take a minimum of Long Riders in every list 35 and up, since I can definitely spare the points, in addition to Kriel Warriors.

The problem here is that the two units are not fairly comparable, since they possess different purposes. Sure, you can compare damage output and survivability, but the information would be irrelevant since Long Riders are flanking cavalry that set up for your front line (a la Bull Rush) and Kriel Warriors are cheap bodies with some durability.

I say take Kriel Warriors if you feel like Kriel Warriors will do well in your list. I am also saying take Long Riders if you want cavalry that will get the job done regardless of their cost.

[DragonWolf]

Any of the Uhlans other ablities can be granted to the Long Riders if we need them (additional armor and pathfinder). Although it can be hard to keep the Longriders within the protective aura.
Is there a reason why you simply dismiss the free abilities that Uhlans have, while Trolls have to spend focus or pay for other models in order to get those abilities?

[Cambeul]

Is there a reason why you simply dismiss the free abilities that Uhlans have, while Trolls have to spend focus or pay for other models in order to get those abilities?

How about the only way for Khador infantry to get buffed is through there Warcaster (exception Joe and Winter Guard), while Trolls get to use:
*KSB+UA
*Story Teller
*Fell Caller
*...maybe count Warbeast Animus as well? or just clump that with Warlock Buffs.

Now if Khador had the same type of Solos/Units that Trolls have for buffing then all their infantry would probably be a Fraction Cheaper, and if Trolls had all the buffs without needing a Fell Caller ect. would then end up being more expensive.

Remember that Trolls dont function the same way that Khador does, they work more like Menoth.

[Mael]

As Maudlin said, I think perhaps the real problem here is that The Troll players aren't looking at their Cav in the right context. In MK1 Cav was necessary to close the gap between shooty armies (Cygnar, Circle, Legion) because if we couldn't pull that off we would get shot to pieces crossing the field.

Remember that we're all suffering from a bit of MK1 syndrome and that the loadout of a standard Troll army has changed significantly since then. Now with the price of the faster Kriel Warriors and Fenn Blades we will be fielding a minimum of 1 single would unit in most armies. The "lots of wounds" mentality has been replaced with the "lots of bodies" mentality which does play directly into our strengths (as more tough rolls=better!)

With all this talk wounds and ARM problems aside, remember that we now actually have the speed and the bodies to get there and let our cav do what they're supposed to. There are a few problems with bull rush though and I would agree with Sevwall and a few others - changing the wording to "run, charge, or slam" would be perfect.

[Galleon]

Heavy cav was standardized across the board , 5 hp arm 17 for the most part. I go to use them over the weekend , though they got shredded I still liked them alot. I think they could use follow up though so when i do choose to slam I still get my attacks.

[McDevious]

I know at my LGS, the main issue isn't how effective the cavalry is, it's the cost. Since MKII WM was released (and much to the Fenblade's chagrin), I haven't seen much in the way of mounted units other than solo cavalry. It's mainly the '5 figures for 11 points' excuse I usually hear (I don't run any because Uhlans are 65$ for the unit box, and 19$ per model from the blister pack - if I'm paying that much, I want to use them every single game. I haven't even looked at the cost for a box of long riders for fear that the price would shatter what sanity I have left).

Either way, that's how my current metagame is. I'll probably give them a shot on Vassall and see how they work.

[petegrrrr]

do mark 2 cav live beyond the charge turn at PP HQ? They sure don't around here :)

They die like chumps everywhere I've seen them played, on the off chance they hit the table at all.

Cav is all about the charge turn...and nobody does that worse than the long riders.

[petegrrrr]

Now with the price of the faster Kriel Warriors and Fenn Blades...

Mael...KW still move the same speed they ever did...and the Fennblades WENT DOWN a point of speed.

KW always had prayer for speed...and in fact with that little 1 inch move from the piper, where FASTER in mark 1. They are certainly better in mark 2, but not faster.

And the Fennblades...just look at their stats. They went from spd 6 to speed 5. I don't see how they in any way got faster. Very confused.

The only thing that changed was the axers single target animus. Every model we have either stayed the same, or in several cases lost speed.

We did not get faster in mark 2.

[General Nemo]

I count on my cavalry dying, so I send them in to hold the enemy still. This works especially going second, because it allows you to get the charge first and gain the all-important forward momentum. It's hard to replace them with anything else since nothing is as fast for most factions.

[petegrrrr]

I can't afford to pay 7 points for a min tarpit.

Not when other factions pay less for better tarpit models (ones that actually may not die)

And not when I can get just two inches less movement out of a max unit of KW for less points than even the min longriders.

Heck, for 5 points I can get a min unit of advance deploying satyxis. They have about the same chance of surving as a min unit of longriders, more threat range turn 1, and cost much less.

[General Nemo]

But Long Riders can do damage, or they could in MK I. I know I will be reporting my dissatisfaction with their reduction in power AND durability. I wouldn't mind one or the other, but both seems to make the unit less attractive.

And I wouldn't dream of taking them below 35 pts., and even then it's a stretch. I'm just saying that they are not without their uses, even if they are not strictly better than someone else's cavalry. 7 points is a fair price to me, though, for holding something still and not taking up half the board like Kriel Warriors do. The tactic has yet to fail me in letting me get the first push in the fight, and usually it wins me the game, though I am speaking strictly from the standpoint of a Khador player. I should clarify that I have done this mostly with Uhlans, though I doubt I'll see different results with my Long Riders.

[Mael]

Their power seems a little under par compared to what they should be doing. I definitely got the feat turn off with them while using Borka but didn't have to much luck with my collateral damage rolls (or rolls to hit, for that matter).

I think it's going to be min unit with them ensuring I get all of my impact attacks off. As it stands now Bull Rush is REALLY hard to pull off effectively.

And just so everyone knows, charging P+S11 models kill them on just above average rolls (3d6 = 10.5). Ewwwwwwww.

[petegrrrr]

They and fennblades both took what I deem to by an entirely unecessary pow reduction on their weapons.

Fennblades at least had the common courtesy to become cheap. The Buffaloes still cost two arms and three legs, and lost a pow.

They gained a Mat. That's it. everything else got worse or stayed the same.

[petegrrrr]

Oh, and the point about using bull rush for 2 attacks after they have engaged...that will almost never happen.

They will be dead the turn after they charge the vast majority of the time. because as mael has illustrated, basically any unit in the game wipes them out on the charge.

[Gorbad]

Yup, my initial impression of Long Riders was that if they get attacked they die. They are really not 'that' difficult to kill.

[Mael]

Yup, my initial impression of Long Riders was that if they get attacked they die. They are really not 'that' difficult to kill.

Did you try them yet? How did it go?

[PPS_Jack]

Oh, and the point about using bull rush for 2 attacks after they have engaged...that will almost never happen.

They will be dead the turn after they charge the vast majority of the time. because as mael has illustrated, basically any unit in the game wipes them out on the charge.

I've been playtesting the Long Riders for months... They get stuck in quite often.

It is easy enough to block charge lanes to the Riders using Whelps, or burrowers (what else are they good for after they pop up anyways? =p).

You can also use Grim's feat, or hoof it to keep them out of harms way.


I am not saying that I would not like to see them get an extra point of armor or defense, but to say they will "almost never" get to use bull rush while engaged is untrue.

[Gorbad]

Did you try them yet? How did it go?

Only had one game with them (only game of hordes I've had time to play), I think I posted the details earlier in the thread. They killed a couple of raptors, and 3 or 4 Swordsmen and then died.

One of the three I brought was killed in turn one by Raptor shooting, and then they spent some time hiding behind terrain only to charge out using the Axers animus.

They it didn't seemed as if my opponent had difficult in killing them if he could target them.

Definitively requires more testing for me, and I won't say they are not useful, but they do seem very fragile and that just doesn't seem like Troll Cav to me.

[rydiafan]

Long riders are fast inf not slow cav. If you think about it like that they are not that bad ;)

Our other multi-wound infantry have 8 boxes. :mad:

Broken record, I know, but it makes NO danged sense.

[Sevwall]

I've been playtesting the Long Riders for months... They get stuck in quite often.

It is easy enough to block charge lanes to the Riders using Whelps, or burrowers (what else are they good for after they pop up anyways? =p).

You can also use Grim's feat, or hoof it to keep them out of harms way.


I am not saying that I would not like to see them get an extra point of armor or defense, but to say they will "almost never" get to use bull rush while engaged is untrue.

Do you feel that letting the Bull Rush order allow charges would be overpowered?

[petegrrrr]

I've been playtesting the Long Riders for months... They get stuck in quite often.

It is easy enough to block charge lanes to the Riders using Whelps, or burrowers (what else are they good for after they pop up anyways? =p).

You can also use Grim's feat, or hoof it to keep them out of harms way.


I am not saying that I would not like to see them get an extra point of armor or defense, but to say they will "almost never" get to use bull rush while engaged is untrue.

I would argue about your meta vs the overall meta...but I already got my warning allotment for the week for arguing with staffers :)

[Cambeul]

Our other multi-wound infantry have 8 boxes. :mad:

Broken record, I know, but it makes NO danged sense.

Man O Wars [Demo Corps & Shock Troopers] - 8 boxes
Ulhans - 5 boxes

Exemplar Bastions - 8 boxes
Exemplar Knights - 5 boxes

Black Ogrun Bording Party - 8 boxes
Soul Hunters - 5 Boxes

Warmongers - 8 boxes
Legion Cav - 5 Boxes

It is almost like there is a Patern here? And I may have missed one or two examples.