Strength of Arms

[dicegod]

To Mods: Please don't move this to battle reports

So now that the Mk2 final rules are out I can do another case study on some of the Protectorates most maligned or least understood warcasters.

This time it's eKreoss' turn.
This is basically a tactical discussion on eKreoss using battle reports as evidence for certain choices and stratedgies you can try on the table top. Anyone is free to jump in with a battle report as long as you post observations and improvements on his play style.


eKreoss vs eButcher

eButcher
^Juggernaught
^Destroyer
^Spriggan
Great Bears
Doom Reavers
Fenris
Manhunter
Yuri
War Dog
3xDemo Corps


eKreoss
^Revenger
Avatar
4xChoir
5xVengers
5xBastions
Vilmon
Paladin of the Wall
Anastasia
Gravus


Deployment

Destroyer/Juggernaught/Spriggan/Butcher/Demo Corp/Great Bears/House/ Doom Reavers/Fenris

Deliverers/Vilmon/Paladin/Revenger/Avatar/eKreoss/Bastions/Vengers+Gravus

Turn 1

Running everywhere. Doom Reavers screening Fenris and DC screening Butcher. Fury is put on the Manhunter. eKreoss put Inviolable Resolve on the Bastions and Sacrosanct on the Deliverers.

Turn 2

Doom Reavers run right up to my Vengers, more running. Yuri and the Manhunter go around the forest to threaten my Deliverers.
I try to use the Deliverers to kill the Doom Reavers but roll horribly and actually end up deviating onto Anastasia. The Bastions charge and kill three and the Vengers to ride bys to kill the other two. One Doom Reaver left, and four ride by attacks fail to kill it, leaving me flapping in the breeze in front of Fenris.
So I cast Cleansing Fire on one of my own Vengers, kill the Doom Reaver on boosted splash and cast Sacrosanct on the Vengers so Fenris would get knocked down.

Turn 3
Fenris charges and puts 6 damage, total, on the Bastions - avoiding my Sacrosanct Vengers.The rest of his stuff moves up, a Destroyer shot killing two of my Deliverers.
Kreoss dropped all his upkeeps and tried to use chasten to kill two MoWDC who failed horribly.
I used my feat and killed Fenris, put some damage on the Spriggan with my Avatar who rolled a 1 for focus. The Deliverers charged those two MoWDC who were blocking my lane to Butcher with Vilmon. Then a Paladin went in and killed one of the Demo Corp but couldn't quite reach the wardog.
Vilmon killed the Manhunter and Yuri.

Turn 4
Kreoss gets sliced and diced by eButcher.

So a failed assassination run ruined me. It kinda went downhill from turn one and eKreoss had no tools to pull it out of the fire.
He was so vastly out threat ranged that I had to go for the 'caster kill.




Sacrosanct - I had hoped to use it to stop Yuri killing them all with a Thresher, but apparently Thresher attacks are simultaneous.
It was pretty useful to stop Fenris butchering my cavalry after some fail rolls.

Strength of Arms - Ever useful, the biggest problem is that he has to activate first to get full use out of it and he needs to charge forwards to get good distance on it. So I need to remember to put enough in front of him to cover him, but nothing that will want to activate later to use the feat.

Inviolable Resolve - Ever sweet, making Bastions hard to kill. Could have gone on the Avatar.

Deliverers really failed me this game, killing my own Anastasia di Bray, and not going after the Doom Reavers to any great effect.
I'm considering dropping the Revenger for eEiryss and a Sunburst - same anti-infantry as cleansing fire, and anti upkeeps as chasten but allows me to camp focus. Though I will need to pick up a 'jack to make use of his 'jack points - Vilmon and the Paladin could get the axe.

Thoughts?

[Poet]

*I'm assuming there is no need to stick to theme*
I think that Vilmon and paladin need to go for a unit of daughters, and find a spot for rhupert.
Charging demo corp with Daughters can be a lot more useful than people, since you roll above and below average quite often, so the above average rolls deal nice damage and the below average rolls still deal 1. putting that one or two last damage on demo corp with the non-charge attacks.
Also, they have a nice threat range, which can be useful.

And why no rhupert? Just the pathfinder on bastions to charge over wrecked jacks has been worth the 2 points for me. That is not counting other thigns like terrain, tough, +1 def when needed or spooking something off the board.

[dicegod]

Theme is not important - unless the tier lists bring something really awesome for eKreoss which I doubt.

One other sweet thing about the piper is he can rally your daughters and have them activate that turn.
I agree that Path Finder is too useful to ignore.

I'm thinking of a list which maximises benefit from deaths, acts as a brick and just steam rolls up the field. No choir or Vassals to slow you down with * Actions.
The Fire of Salvation can hopefully utilise the free move/trample/feat to go.

The Devout is there to stop Eiryss, as you will see in a future battle report :)

The KE for souls, and the KEE to have AD and with magic, fire causing cross bows, no knockdown and tough that are a huge road bump that help with scenarios.

TFG are there to eat infantry in the feat turn and act as cheap road blocks.

eKreoss
^Devout
^FoS
5xCinerators
10xEE
Gravus
KE
Seneschal
Rhupert
10xTFG+UA
Covenant
3xWracks

[SteveinNYC]

It's hard to tell from your report how you were planning on killing eButcher.

If you're looking to take advantage of your things dying then FoS is a must have.

I run a fast list and my choir and vassal can keep up. I usually run the vassal first turn.

I'll be interested to hear how you do against multiple heavy jacks and if you have trouble concentrating force.

[dicegod]

I was hoping to get a feated Vilmon onto him, but to do so I had to kill two demo corp to clear a lane without freestrikes.

[jandrese]

As you noticed, the Deliverers had basically no targets this game. This is sadly typical IMHO, you would be much better served by taking a Sunburst and Rhupert instead of minimum Deliverers IMHO.

eKreoss doesn't really need a Revenger either IMHO. I'd much rather have the FoS in there, although it will require shuffling some points around. The FoS is a fantastic beatstick and it can make up a bit for your lack of threat range thanks to its vengeance ability.

[dicegod]

eKreoss vs Seige

eKreoss
^Revenger
Avatar
4xChoir
5xVengers
10xTFG+UA
Anastasia
Gravus
Wracks

Seige
^Defender
^Cyclone
6xPrecursors+UA
Broke 13th
eEiryss
Junior
Rangers
Reinholdt
Squire
Strangewayes

Deployment
Scenario: Process of Elimination

Precursors and Defender on my left with Seige and trappings in the middle with B13th and the Cyclone on my right.

Vengers and Gravus on my left, Avatar/Revenger and Kreoss with solos in the center with TFG on the right flank.

Turn 1

I gave him first, and he moved up.
He got Arcane Sheild on Seige and thats about it.

I put Inviolable Resolve on the Avatar because he didn't have any real armor busting besides seiges feat, and it could be dispelled by eEiryss on the units.
Most things ran.

Turn 2

One focus on the Defender, the other 5 on Seige with Arcane Sheild upkept. Defender kills the lead Venger (camping on the corner of the left zone) from long range and the Rangers take up position in a forest with Seige standing behind on the edge - also touching the right zone. He drops a ground pounder on the TFG and kills one.
Two covering fire templates are placed in front of the TFG.

One focus to Revenger, upkeep Inviolable Resolve. The TFG run around the covering fire template towards the rangers and B13 and pop Iron Zeal. The Avatar runs into the zone.
The front Venger runs to tie up the Defender and a Precursor. The rest daisy chain behind it, one stopping the Avatar from being slammed by the Cyclone out of the zone.
Gravus and the Revenger accompany the Vengers into the left zone. I try to channel Cleansing Fire at the Precursors but forgot Spell Ward - whoops.

Turn 3

2 on Defender, 4 on seige, upkeep arcane sheild. Defender takes a boosted shot at Gravus and drops Gravus to two wounds. The Precursors pop "In Morrows Name" and kill two Vengers.
Seige trys to unhorse Gravus but fails because he is engaging a Precursor.
B13 and Rangers kill 4 TFG. Eiryss hangs about.
Arlan power boosters the Cyclone who takes a free strike and arm locks the sword arm on the Avatar.

eKreoss keeps all his focus, pops his feat and charges the Cyclone - slamming it and breaking the arm lock. The Avatar trashes the Cyclone and sets a couple of Rangers. The TFG cut sick and kill Ryan and Lynch and all the Rangers bar one (remember this).
Gravus severly messes up the Defender, losing its Cannon and Movement and engaging it.
The Revenger moves towards Eiryss, trying to use it's Reach to shut down her avenues of movement and kills two precursors.
The TFG and Avatar form a wall infront of eKreoss who are all elevated.

Turn 4
All he has left at this point is Watts, the Precursor UA, Seige and eEiryss and a single Ranger. He kills one TFG with the precursor to unengage the Ranger who runs to mark the target. Watts kills the TFG, and eEiryss dodges the Revenger and rolls a 7 to hit eKreoss on the hill and Seige Breaches eKreoss.


Anastasia and first turn - IMO always take second turn. You expose yourself to one less round of shooting, as you don't want to run up and expose yourself to gun fire. If they don't advance you can score in zones first and you should be running as fast as possible. Once in the zone you will be tough to shift.
I keep forgetting to flank with Anastasia - I think she is more of a threat from a flank than up the guts, but thats just me. Eventually I'll get Espionage off with the feat.

Aggression - I think I need to play more aggressive. Just book it up field turn one rather than moving slowly. Limiting loses is less important with an eKreoss list compared to any other because his feat multiplies numbers. The more important factor is getting there. Allowing your opponent to pick off your front line and still stay out of charge range of the rest of your models is a bad move.

Vengers - I keep wanting to justify them but at 11pts I'm just not sure I can. At this point all I see them as is souls for Gravus and that could be obtained a lot cheaper.

Sacrosanct - Had I not been facing eEiryss it might have been handy in knocking down the B13 if they shot my TFG so I could auto hit them - had I bought my usual unit of Deliverers.

Devout - eKreoss is such a river boat gambler with his feat, you can't take too few risks. Eiryss just bones him and its really sad that I need to take a 5pt model to shut down a 3pt one, but if played back there is just no way he can threaten her.

TFG - Are totally sick with him. They thresh infantry with Reach and they are fast and cheap. I think the UA may be superflous but Iron Zeal whilst running can be neat.

[jandrese]

I'm not a big fan of Vengers with eKreoss just because their second attack has to be a wussy sword swing instead of the meaty lance attack.

A unit of Daughters is always amusing to take just for the feat turn and the "no rolls" kills. It's just about the only time in the game where you can remove models without rolling a single die.

[dicegod]

Perhaps it's just me but he does so little for the daughters outside of his feat. And they really don't benefit from the third attack sans reach except for the fact you can instagib solos and a warcaster if you are VERY lucky.

I really want them with a caster that has a DEF buff I think. Sacrosanct could be sweet on them though.

[jandrese]

They are one of the few unit choices that eKreoss would take that might actually make use of the Fearless part of Inviolable Resolve.

That said, I always take Rhupert and he can do the same thing with Heroic Call anyway.

I know I've ranted about this before, but why in the world does a guy who leads an army of fearless troopers and walking metal behemoths have a spell that grants fearless? Especially +2 ARM and Fearless, since everything that can benefit from +2 ARM is already fearless (or nearly so in the case of TFG + UA). +2 DEF and fearless would be a much more useful spell. Inviolable Resolve should be +2 ARM and Tough or something. Defenders Ward is just hands down a better spell.

[Yertle4]

I think Errants would be invaluable as a tar pit here. I claimed elsewhere that eKreoss is basically a crappy Khador caster. He basically runs up his second line, keeping it sort of protected with his upkeeps and Castigate. Then stuff charges with the feat and you hope you kill enough.

But you gotta pin the enemy in place, and Errants are awesome for that - because they are tough to dislodge, and are a potent melee threat on their own (as well as having a ranged option if necessary). The elite cadre might even be worth a damn.

[SaltyBob]

Try the Templar out with him, I think it could make for some nice assassination runs. On the feat turn there isn't that much difference between him and the Avatar, so perhaps take 2 and leave the Avatar at home? It lends itself to the run forward and get into melee mentality. Run 2 Templar forward, one of them should get somewhere important for the feat turn.

TFG are great, why you take the UA is so that Rhupert can give them tough on their mini feat turn.

Vengers I have found to be good, but only if you put +2 ARM on them. Then I often will ride by attack with 2 attacks to clear out infantry for a charge lane.

Not sure what to do vs either Eiryss honestly.

As an alternative to the TFG you could use the EE, with Gravus and Tough they make a great AD unit to cover your advance. They are not as good on the feat turn but they are out of the way of the rest of your army, so I personally like the trade. Mostly a tempo thing for me I guess. If you don't take the Vengers you can also stack IR on them to give them ARM 18 Tough and no KD.

[meleemadness]

They are one of the few unit choices that eKreoss would take that might actually make use of the Fearless part of Inviolable Resolve.

That said, I always take Rhupert and he can do the same thing with Heroic Call anyway.

I know I've ranted about this before, but why in the world does a guy who leads an army of fearless troopers and walking metal behemoths have a spell that grants fearless? Especially +2 ARM and Fearless, since everything that can benefit from +2 ARM is already fearless (or nearly so in the case of TFG + UA). +2 DEF and fearless would be a much more useful spell. Inviolable Resolve should be +2 ARM and Tough or something. Defenders Ward is just hands down a better spell.


For the same reason that Kromac.....none.

He has a spell that adds +2 armor and grants fearless but it is only worthwhile on the Ravagers (bring them to 16 armor) but they are already fearless......I think there is a conspiracy against the casters I like!!! :eek:

[SteveinNYC]

We have very different play styles, so I'm hesitant to give advice. But hey, you asked.

I play melee assassination, so I love eKreoss because he is all about concentrating force on the opposing caster.

I play aggressively. I always take first turn so I can pressure my opponent. I deal with ranged attacks by punishing my opponent for shooting me (FoS, but I could see Cinerators working too), chanting no shooty and running a Devout.

I would take a second heavy melee jack. It'll be hard to take both out, and you only need one to reach the opposing caster to win. The Templar would be a good choice (reach, beat back, high P+S), I can't wait to try that out myself. I'd free up the points by dropping the Vengers.

Hope this helps

[Soylent]

Points costs seems off on your lists for some reason...

I've been playing a lot of eKreoss as of late.

Revenger needs to go, while it's nice to have there it really doesn't do you too much.

Vengers, they really haven't worked for me with him. They need to stick around for the feat yet they want to hit sooner than the rest of the army.

Bodies, lots of them. The more melee numbers the better. I know you're not a fan of them but try running two units of KE.

I still think going first provides a large advantage. Yes you close the distance to shooting but you get to pick the side/terrain. Use it to your advantage.

You seem to be sacrificing him. Yes he can throw the beat down but he is a FOC7 caster. 14" gives you a lot of leway to play with so you don't have to have him too close to harms way.

This is the list I've been playing at 50pts.

eKreoss
-Dervish
-Devout
-Vanquisher
Avatar
Choir(min)
Daughters
KE
KE
Covenant
Vassal
Vassal
eEiryss
Rhupert

My meta has seen quite a few jacks, hence using numerous weapon masters. I've been playing around with a third unit of KE and a Seneshal or two but the Devout has been valuable against Siege. Daughters usually lead the way with +1DEF and Sacrosant(Invioable Resolve if there is terror around). Against lists that lack the AoEs or CRAs they tend to do well to help my army advance. Vanquisher is usually running first turn with Ancilliary Attack(provided there is something close to deviation range). Second/third turn I switch Invioable Resolve to the Avatar or eKreoss. I typically don't assassinate on the feat turn though the situations have presented itself, usually it's attrition in spades. Biggest lesson I've learned is take eKreoss out of the equation for the feat unless you're possitive he'll be safe on the following turn.

[Yertle4]

You seem to be sacrificing him.
I highly doubt this. He's a pretty cagey player when it comes to protecting your warcaster. Most dedicated Protectorate players are. eKreoss just has a way of dying.

[Soylent]

I highly doubt this. He's a pretty cagey player when it comes to protecting your warcaster. Most dedicated Protectorate players are. eKreoss just has a way of dying.


Ever useful, the biggest problem is that he has to activate first to get full use out of it and he needs to charge forwards to get good distance on it. So I need to remember to put enough in front of him to cover him, but nothing that will want to activate later to use the feat.


This lead me to believe he was playing eKreoss further forward than needed, though eButch may have just caught him off guard. I've no doubt that he's a good player but sometimes when we switch gears to a new caster we can bring the playstyle of what we've been playing with other casters.

Still the main reason eKreoss dies is people play him like a frontline caster when he doesn't need to be, he just needs to be close enough. He's an anomoly, FOC7 beatstick. If there are possible threats then you can feel free to hang him back a bit while your army does the work. Sure his melee can contribute a lot under the feat but not at the cost of loosing the game. Just be conscieous of the 14" control range he has when you feat. As bland as it may seem, he does well upkeeping spells and feeding jacks.

[dicegod]

The game above was a 40pter for a tournament coming up.

The problem is that he has to expose himself to get a good feat off, and unlike pkreoss his feat has no denial aspect. Also, pkreoss' feat often wins the game where as ekreoss' usually just kills a ton if stuff.


Thanks for the lists guys, next time I play a 50 pt game I will give them a
go. Tonight I am playing some smaller games to practice with ekreoss for an escalation style tournament in a couple of weeks.

The butcher didn't really catch me off guard, but I kinda went for an all in when I spent all his focus failing to kill two democorp in front of butcher.

[Avatar8481]

I've demoed eKroess a bunch recently and hope to get a real game in with him tonight. I run the Templar and avatar with him, along with full bastion and KE. His feat turn seems to be mostly about setting up for the kill the following turn. I've been testing him against melee heavy armies, which isn't a balanced matchup and he tends to just clear out the front and back lines of the opponent and then the following turn has the charge lane with everything that he needs to get the kill.

He's pretty one dimensional, but alot of fun.

[Yertle4]

The butcher didn't really catch me off guard, but I kinda went for an all in when I spent all his focus failing to kill two democorp in front of butcher.
Plus eButcher is just totally fricking awesome.

eKreoss at smaller points games should be.... interesting, to say the least.

I love how people keep pointing out how 'bland' eKreoss is :p

[Avatar8481]

bacon is only one flavor too, doesn't mean it isn't awesome.

[Soylent]

The problem is that he has to expose himself to get a good feat off, and unlike pkreoss his feat has no denial aspect. Also, pkreoss' feat often wins the game where as ekreoss' usually just kills a ton if stuff.


Thats the thing. With a 14" control radius you don't need to expose him as much as you think to get a good feat.

[jandrese]

The caveat is that you have to get the enemy models within his control area to get auto-hits on them. His feat would be a lot better if it were a pulse and it just caused models to auto-hit, since they could just charge out and cause havoc, but since you've gotta cover the enemies you want to auto-hit, you need to run him pretty far forward to make maximum use of it.

[Soylent]

Which still isn't bad, at most you have to be two inches closer than if it was worded that way.

[jandrese]

You have to be a lot closer if you're fielding something like Vengers and they want to charge targets that are 13" away.

[Soylent]

You have to be a lot closer if you're fielding something like Vengers and they want to charge targets that are 13" away.

True. There are two sides to that though. If Vengers charge then there is a good chance you'll have a little more cushion between you and the enemy, leaving more room for Kreoss to move forward. Or what they charge is close enough(ie they charged 7" instead of 11") that they are still well within range. On the otherside if the Vengers prove to be too fast for you to effectively feat with them then they might not be the best choice for you.

[dicegod]

I have found vengers too squishy and too expensive for my ekreoss lists.
He wants more bodies on the field to get use out of his feat. Too often they get ganked by weaker attacks leaving me with a handful of models.

Autohitting impact hits are sweet, but when their isn't a venger left it's somewhat unimportant. Perhaps I have just had a bad experience with them? 11pts is a heck of a lot.

Two reports coming tonight.

[SaltyBob]

So the Vengers didn't have the +2 ARM?

[dicegod]

He had eEiryss, so it was only worth putting the extra armor on untargetable jacks.

[Cannotcope]

I find that even though Vengers are fast and can get their first, that it is often best to hold them back and hit as one big group.

I tend to use the Venger's speed to shuffle from one side of my brick-o-knights to the other, forcing my opponent to redeploy in some cases, which tends to mess with their head and often wrecks their plans.

Or I'll send them down a flank, only to charge back into eKreoss's CTRL at the opportune moment.

[dicegod]

http://kiwithralls.blogspot.com/2010/01/strength-at-arms-part-1.html

Two 15 pt battle reports with pictures.

[Soylent]

Took our Resurgence event with eKreoss so I thought I'd share how the games went down.

I ran pKreoss in the first round. In the second it was eKreoss vs pSevy(Lucas).

eKreoss
-Vanquisher
Avatar
Daughters
KE
KE
Choir(min)
Vassal
pEiryss

vs

pSeverius
-Revenger
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
TFG(full)
Sunburst
Choir(full)
Vassal
Paladin
Heirophant
Wracks

Main terrain feature was a small forest in the middle, we ignored the rest.
I win the roll and decide to go first.

I deploy a unit of KE on either side with the jacks, eKreoss and support just to the right of the forest.

Lucas deploys pSevy, Paladin and Sunburst and the Revenger to my left, TFG, Reckoner in the middle and the Vanquisher on the right with the support fanned out(Vassal with the Vanquisher).

Daughters deploy on the right and pEiryss behind the forest.

Round1

One focus to the Vanquisher, Avatar rolls for 4(always max when it doesn't need it). Eiryss activates and enters the forest on my side. eKreoss activates, casts Sacrosact on the left KE and Invioable Resolve on the Daughters then charges Eiryss but fails. Daughters run and fan out for the Vanquisher, right KE just behind them. Left KE run and spread out for the Sunburst. Everything else runs for the right side of the forest.


Lucas allocates one to the Revenger and Vanquisher. Choir activates and chants battle hymn. pSevy activates, casts Defenders Ward on the TFG and EoM. Revenger runs for the left of the forest. Vanquisher runs, Vassal activates and uses anciliary attack on the Vanquisher. Vanquisher shoots for the middle of my Daughters, misses and deviation clips one but not killing it, fire token gets placed. Paladin advances with stone and mortar. TFG run and spread way out for my Vanquisher. Everything else runs or advances.

Round2

Fire stays and burns a Daughter. Upkeep IR and Sacro, Avatar gets two. Right KE run to make room for the Vanquisher, one engages Lucas's Vanquisher. Vanquisher moves up, takes a shot at the TFG killing 1 and lighting 2 on fire. Vassal moves up to help kill another and light 1 more on fire. eKreoss advances and pops feat. Daughters charge the TFG removing 5 of them, TFG fail command. Eiryss moves up and disrupts the Revenger. Left KE run up towards the Revenger and Sunburst.
Avatar gazes and runs up the right of the forest. Choir hold the back control zone.

Fire goes out on 2 killing 1. Upkeep EoM and 2 focus to the Reckoner. Choir gives battle hymn. Reckoner shoots the Vanquisher for six. Vassal uses anciliary attack and the Vanquisher kills the KE. Vanquisher kills off 2 KE with another shot(hit a third but Aegis saved it). Sunburst shoots and misses the left KE. Revenger moves in on Eiryss but misses. Paladin charges a KE killing it and gets knocked down. Sevy activates, casts A2A on the Paladin doing no damage but killing off a KE and Eiryss then pops feat.

Control points 3(me) to 1.

Round3

Upkeeps drop and Avatar gets 3. Daughters charge Sevy doing 8 damage. Right KE charge the Vanquisher taking off the melee weapon. 2 left KE charge the Revenger, 1 misses and the other chips some paint. Vanquisher moves up and shoots the support taking out the Vassal and 2 Choir. Vassal puts enliven on the Avatar and it charges and takes out the remaining TFG. Kreoss runs behind my Vanquisher.

Control points 6 to 1

Lucas upkeeps EoM, puts 1 on the Revenger and 1 on the Vanquisher. Sevy activates, casts A2A on a Daughter engaging him and kills them then moves up and converts a left KE. Choir chant battle hym. Vanquisher shoots my Vanquisher doing some damage and a little to Kreoss. Revenger runs but can't make it to the my closest control point and I win by scenario.

Lucas had a good list to deal with my troops. Due to a bad deviation here and there and me shutting down his arc node for 2 turns made it difficult for him to use A2A effectively(which was my real worry). While the feat wasn't utterly devistating such as a 3rd turn feat, it did make the TFG disapear which I was all to happy to do to ensure I held the control points. In all the games I kept eKreoss from becoming exposed and never once had trouble with feat coverage(you don't have to play him super aggressive). Daughters performed beautifully being able to cross the board virtually unhindered, in that game they were MVP.

Will post my 50pt results in a bit.

[Soylent]

At 50 points it was against my buddy Sandy and his Circle. I ran...

eKreoss
-Vanquisher
-Dervish
Avatar
Daughters
KE
KE
Choir(max)
Vassal
Vassal
Covenant
Reclaimer
Saxon Orrik
Gorman
eEiryss

vs

Kromac
-Pureblood
-Feral
-Woldwyrd
-Gorax
WoO(full)
-UA
Bloodtrackers(full)
Whitemane
LotF
Morraig


Main terrain features were a forest on my side to the left and a 6" diameter rock in the middle of the table.

Sandy won the roll. Feral and Gorax on my right. WoO in the middle. Kromac, Pureblood, Wyrd, Morraig, and the Whitemane on the left.

I deploy a KE on the right. The other KE in the woods on the left. Vanquisher, Vassal and Kreoss in the middle. Avatar, Devish and Vassal to the left. Support fanned out behind the jacks with the Covenant center left.

LotF on my left and Bloodtrackers in the center with a gap to go around the rock.

Saxon in the forest to the left. Daughters on the right. Eiryss in the middle.

Daughters are the Bloodtrackers prey.

Round1

Cautious advance with the Bloodtrackers with everything else running or advancing behind. Invioable Resolve on the Blood Trackers, Wild Aggression on the Pureblood and Warpath.

1 focus to the Vanquisher and Dervish, Avatar gets 2. Kreoss puts Invioable Resolve on the Avatar and Sacrosanct on the Daughters.Vanquisher runs and gets anciliary attack from a Vassal missing the Bloodtrackers. Eiryss moves up in range of the Bloodtrackers and shoots a WoO, killing it. Daughters advance cautiously staying just at max range of the Bloodtrackers. Right KE run by them. Avatar runs and gets enliven. Covenant advances and says no KD/Stationary. Choir chants no shooting. Saxon hangs out and the left KE run through to the edge of the woods.

Round2

Upkeep all 3. LotF ravens the Covenant and takes out 2 Choir and puts 1 damage on the Covenant and 3 on Saxon. Bloodtrackers move up and chuck spears killing a Daughter, Eiryss and 2 KE. Everything else moves up behind. All the kills were out of range of Warpath.

Avatar gets 2. Upkeep both. Kreoss moves towards the LotF, pops feat and takes him out. Choir chants battle hymn. Vanquisher pops the WoO officer and 3 others.Vassals put enliven on the Dervish and Avatar. Daughters, Devish and the Avatar wipe the Bloodtrackers to a woman(Daughters also take a few WoO. Right KE charge the Feral and Gorax doing a little damage. Saxon shoots the Whitemane for 6 damage. Left KE run up and Covenant moves in front of Kreoss putting up no KD/Stationary. Reclaimer holds the zone. Gorman hits the Pureblood with Black Oil.

Control points 1(me) to 1.

Round3

Upkeeps Warpath, drops the rest. Gorax and the Feral charge the right KE and Daughters killing a few. Whitemane waltzs through my left KE taking them down to 2. Wyrd pops a shot into the Avatar doing 6, Avatar uses enliven to engage it and the Pureblood, following attacks fail to damage. 3 WoO CMA the Avatar for 3 points. Kromac plays it safe holding his back zone.

Control points 2(me) to 2.

Drop Sacrosanct, upkeep IR and allocate 2 to the Dervish. Avatar gets 2.

Choir chants battle hymn. Dervish activates and slams the Pureblood doing 6 damage. Gorman hits it with Black Oil. Daughters run past the Gorax and Feral. KE charge the Feral doing some decent damage. Reclaimer drops 3 focus on the Vanquisher and it charges the right half of the WoO dropping them. Vassal uses anciliary attack on the Avatar which it puts a big hit on the Wyrd. Saxon shoots a WoO and misses. The two left KE drop the Whitemane and the Avatar moves around taking 3 freestrikes from the WoO doing no damage. The Avatar slaps the Wyrd with the shield, dropping it and puts in 3 hits on Kromac killing the rest of his beasts in transfers and leaving him with 6 life. Covenant moves in front of Kreoss and does his thing.

Control points 5(me) to 2.

Round4

Kromac beasts out. The remaining WoO fail to do much. Kromac has the tough decision of taking a freestrike from the Avatar. leaping and having to drop the Covenant before swinging into Kreoss or just trying to beat on an ARM23 Avatar. Kromac in frustration beats on the Avatar, doing 8 damage.

I sit on my two zones for a scenario win.


Sandy is a good Circle player but he does struggle with the extreme armor. Between the Daughters and the Vanquisher the field was fairly clear for my army to advance unhindered. The Whitemane did suprise me and it was only a missed attack that kept him from clearing out the left KE and Saxon. Avatar was the MVP swinging at dice+7 on Kromac though I felt that all components of the army contributed very well.

[SaltyBob]

I had a decent game with Kreoss2 last night.

EKreoss *6
Templar 8
Reckoner 8
Dervish 4

Daughters 5
Bastions 8
Cleansers 5
Rhoven 4

Choir 2
Paladin 2
Vassal 2
Reclaimer 2
Kell 2
Piper 2
Gorman

This was a game vs Nemo, and I won't go into details much since it was just a fun game.

The main thing that stood out for me, and my main idea around this list, was puting the Cleansers directly behind the Bastions. The Bastions get IR and run for the first 2 turns. The Cleansers just moved up behind them. If the Bastions ever became engaged, the Cleansers sprayed down the infantry straight through the Bastions. Being ARM 18 they don't take much, if any, damage and thanks to Kreoss they are immune to fire.

This worked great, it allowed the Bastions to advance into the targets that they wanted to get to on the feat turn.

Rhoven also worked great, he has the option of helping the Reckoner out to shoot Stealth targets, or on the feat turn the bodyguards can really reck face. For 4 points they get a lot out of the feat, and since they are small bases they can often get where they want to be.

Something to try out at the very least.

[paradox]

I played a game last night and will be playing him in a 75pt event on saturday.
Last night was 50pts (a version of my 75pt list) vs epic Thagrosh.

Epic Kreoss
Fire of Salvation
Vanquisher
Vanquisher
min choir
vassal
TFG+UA
KE
daughters
Vilmon
seneschal
paladin
wracks

56pts (at 75pts I drop wracks for a reclaimer and fill choir, add Avatar, bastions, 2nd vassal and covenant).

vs

Epic Thagrosh (approx list)
Typhon
carnivean
seraph
seraph
raek
legionnaires
forsaken
forsaken
(or thereabouts)

His heavies + feat + Manifest Destiny accounted for a bunch of my force. I followed by counter-feating. I dropped the carnie, raek legionnaires and a forsaken. Vilmon rolled trip 1s and then trip 2s vs Typhon, failing to kill him (he was already heavily wounded). So I died to Typhon.

The thing I've been doing differently is to put Invioable Resolve on Kreoss himself. For 1 focus upkeep being ARM18 base is great. It allows him to get pretty close up, which I did and will do in the event. I put Sacrosanct on the TFG or KE (though last game I didn't due to a gaff that put them too far away. Plus all the beasts = didnt matter). The whole idea is shove upfield with everything, take a hit and hit back harder. Other than IR on Kreoss, it's pretty par for the course IMO.

[Soylent]

@paradox & SaltyBob

Did you find yourself keeping eKreoss back or putting him up there?

[paradox]

As stated, I shoved him right up there. Except the last turn, I was at ARM22 between IR and focus, so I felt pretty safe (also being behind TFG + KE + jacks). I was around mid-table when I died (turn 3).

[Soylent]

Would he have been fine hanging back some and still get good feat coverage? I know I'm leading but I'm finding that he does great hanging back a bit(14" CTRL range) and am wondering if others are seeing that as well.

[Cannotcope]

Would he have been fine hanging back some and still get good feat coverage? I know I'm leading but I'm finding that he does great hanging back a bit(14" CTRL range) and am wondering if others are seeing that as well.

I've tended to keep him back to good effect. I can always charge something in the back for an extra 3" on the normal move+feat, which gets you a fairly nice 22" threat range on the feat.

However, that tended to keep him back should be tempered by the fact that the rest of his army is in my opponent's face ASAP, so hanging back still tends to be around midfield.

[paradox]

Yes and no. Being close in allowed the daughters to benefit and thereby auto-kill the forsaken. He was also integral in killing the raek and carnie with his own attacks (I lost FoS and vanquisher, the gun off the 2nd vanquisher, some TFG and all the KE in his feat turn). Were he further back, he may not have been able to participate like he did.

In retrosepct, I have have been better off using my AP attack on Typhon (practically guaranteed auto-kill) by risking a free strike from the carnie. This would have freed Vilmon to go after the raek and left the vanquisher and paladin to deal with the carnie. Oh well.

[Kazi]

Hey, to add to the eKreoss discussion. I've been running him alot recently, especially the following list:

eKreoss
-Templar
Avatar
Cinerators (full)
Min Choir
Reclaimer
Wracks
Vilmon
Paladin
Paladin
Covenant

It isn't a perfect list by any means but I've enjoyed it. Strengths are extreme high armor across the entire front (w/ Inv Resolve on Cinerators) and high focus-support with the Reclaimer, Wracks, and Avatar, allowing eKreoss to camp nearly his whole focus amount every turn. Weaknesses are obvious and include ZERO ranged :D.

I usually run eKreoss like Paradox: move up, get hit, feat and hit back. In that circumstance it helps alot to have eKreoss close up front, because that auto-hitting AP charge is often crucial to dealing enough hurt to the enemy to regain the advantage after soaking a charge. Plus, at ARM 23 and no KD the threat of him dying from a single turn ranged assassination is . . . fairly slim except is specific, foreseeable circumstances (i.e. Eryiss).

Finally, obviously everything with a melee weapon rocks hard on eKreoss' feat turn, but TRY THE TEMPLAR. My God. One game he solo'd a unit of Bloodweavers. Another turn he lost his flail arm, and still auto-hit instakilled a whole unit of Arc Shielded Stormblades. He has on several occasions used beat back with his initial/feat attacks and made it to the enemy caster with a full focus load. The one limitation of eKreoss' feat is that you can only kill what you can reach. Savvy opponents might stack their army so you can only hit the first row and there is plently left for their own counter-charge. But with Beatback the Templar will just keep pounding through that first line and on to whats behind them.

[SaltyBob]

@paradox & SaltyBob

Did you find yourself keeping eKreoss back or putting him up there?
He hangs out behind the line of Bastions, or slightly to the side depending on what ranged threats are on the table. I generally struggle with both protecting him and leaving a line open for him to advance through on the feat turn. Since you want to activate him first.

Gorman worked well for that, since the smoke goes away at the beginning of the turn. Also the Cleansers did well for this, since you can activate them first and clear up some space, or create another smoke cloud to hide in/behind. Kreoss can advance into the Cleanser cloud, take little to zero damage and be protected vs non reach troops and shooting to some extent. Or just hide behind it.

Big problems have been terrain not allowing for a good charge/advance and my own models getting in the way.

[dicegod]

I see people taking KE with eKreoss.

Why? He has no way to buff their threat range - which is really subpar IMO.

[Soylent]

I see people taking KE with eKreoss.

Why? He has no way to buff their threat range - which is really subpar IMO.


They hit hard and it only takes one or two to wreck a jack on the feat. Plus they benifit from Aegis if my Vanquisher templete strays. They usually follow behind the Daughters as they give them time to get where needed.

[paradox]

I see people taking KE with eKreoss.

Why? He has no way to buff their threat range - which is really subpar IMO.
They stand behind my TFG and then counter charge/ 2nd wave with the feat.

[dicegod]

What makes you take two units of KE rather than a unit of KE and two Seneschals?

[SaltyBob]

I would agree on not taking the KE with him. Personally either the Bastions or the TFG have more synergy with him than the KE. Reach is so important on the feat turn, and he basically doesn't have any spells that effectively buff them.

Inviolable Resolve is sort of fun once 3-4 of them are dead though, ARM 20-22 is nice. But it pales in comparison to ARM 18 Bastions, or ARM 21 TFG.

Though on the flip side, I haven't been able to get my Sennys on the table much. Even with auto hitting, they seem to never quite make it into my lists. I would rather pay 1 point more for Rhoven or a Dervish or any number of our support cast.

[Stinkmeaner]

I think KE are fine with EKreoss. The reason for this is purely because people know that when they decide to kill them, they need to kill them ALL. People spend a lot of effort making sure they kill all of them, and when they are deciding between them or the daughters running about a foot away, it's a difficult decision.

[Yertle4]

What makes you take two units of KE rather than a unit of KE and two Seneschals?
Volume, to benefit from the feat. KE hit really hard and aren't that expensive.

[Soylent]

Volume, to benefit from the feat. KE hit really hard and aren't that expensive.


Thats pretty much it. More bodies that hit like a ton of bricks. The reason I like them is they are more bodies than the Bastions for the points and they hit like much, much harder than TFG.

KE may not be popular with people but I'll happily stand by them.

[Cannotcope]

he basically doesn't have any spells that effectively buff them.

I find the Sancrosanct is actually an interesting "buff" of sorts. Gives my opponent the choice of putting the effort into killing them, while making them better and knocking his own guys down, or just letting them hit his lines unharmed.

If my opponent really wants to send a jack or warcaster to personally deal with the KE, that's fine with me. Usually means something else is getting through.

[SaltyBob]

Sacrosanct works, but it works better on the Daughters, Zealots or TFG. The KE are slow, so they tend to be behind the lines a bit. When you choose who is affected by Sacrosanct, by actively engaging the enemy, it is far more effective.

It isn't horrible, it just doesn't scream out to me KE, KE, KE! Possibly it is just personal preference.

[Soylent]

Ya, it's great on Daughters because they're in your face so quickly. Also your opponent will likely dedicate shooting models to deal with a unit with Sacrosanct which really don't care about being KD. KE with their slower SPD and low DEF are easier targets than the Daughters with their SPD and DEF.

[paradox]

Early game, yes. But moving it to the KE later in the game is a good option too.

[dicegod]

I went 5-0 at a tournament with eKreoss today.

I am done with him. I've served my sentence.

[LordGrimlok]

So which lists did you finally end up with? How did the meta look like? Did you have any trouble with ranged lists, or was the terrain enough to get around that? I look forward to seeing the batreps.

[paradox]

I've served my sentence.
LOL!

Do you not enjoy playing him?

[SaltyBob]

I went 5-0 at a tournament with eKreoss today.

I am done with him. I've served my sentence.

List and quick summary would be great. Congratulations also.

[Soylent]

eKreoss
-Vanquisher
-Dervish
Avatar
Daughters
KE
KE
Choir(max)
Vassal
Vassal
Covenant
Reclaimer
Saxon Orrik
Gorman
eEiryss

It's not dicegod's but I've been a terror locally with this list. Once I decided not to commit eKreoss, unless it's a sure thing, I haven't lost in quite awhile with it.

[dicegod]

15pt, 25pt and 35pt.

eKreoss
^Fire of Salvation
5xBastions
6xTFG

eKreoss
^Fire of Salvation
5xBastions
6xKE
Rhupert
10xTFG
Wracks

eKreoss
^Fire of Salvation
5xBastions
6xKE
Rhupert
10xTFG
Wracks
Gravus
Seneschal
Covenant

I won 4 games on 'caster kill and 2 games on scenario (Moshpit and Process of Elimination)

Some things about army composition.
I made these the night before and hadn't playtested KE in the list. But people on the forums seemed to like KE so I put a unit in for giggles.

I originally had Deliverers in my list to deal with Gunmages and Long Gunners, and capitalise on the KD generated by the Seneschal and Sacrosanct TFG.

Fire of Salvation was just to soak up my 'jack points - but he performed amazingly. With no points spent on 'jack support I didn't feel guilty if he didn't kill two enemy heavies.

Bastions had IR on them all day, and I never lost a full unit. Neat stuff like transfering sufficient damage from a Doom Reaver to stop it bezerking and also killing the charge target on the next Doom Reaver down the line.

TFG were the stars of the day. I just made gave them Dirge of Mists or Heroic Call (if the opponent had terror) and relied on set defence and sacrosanct to ruin someones plans. They were good for triggering the Fire of Salvations free move at 15pts.
6pts and just run them up the guts, 12" first and second turn no matter what. I didn't face chain lightening, but you can spread them out pretty well and slow down the enemy from getting into the moshpit/area. And 5 of them can feasibly kill 10 light infantry on the feat turn like Nyss Swordsmen.

KE performed well for 5pts, killed some stuff and worked well behind the TFG. At the larger points levels they were the trigger for the Fires free move. They also provided souls for Gravus.

Gravus went into the list at the last minute, and performed well in the final 35pt game (and subsequent friendly game).

The Covenant didn't come into play in the two 35pt games I played - but that's largely matchup dependent and my TFG were too fast to benefit from tough no knockdown.

Seneshcal was cool, golden in scenarios and I missed him in the 25pt level. I had a sweet slam set up but flat out killed the heavy I was trying to slam under eKreoss' feat :p I really want to try this guy out more.

[SteveinNYC]

Thanks for posting your lists. Do either of you have trouble dealing with lists that run multiple heavies? Dicegod, do you feel the lack of shooting?

[dicegod]

Yes, the lack of shooting ****ing sucked.
I would have been absolutely mauled by Ashlynn list had it not been for scenarios. People that comment on the increased usefulness of gunlines are right in two instances
1) You're not playing a scenario
2) You lose first turn

If you win first turn against a gunline in a scenario they have lost. Straight up lost. If they try and meet you in melee your feat will crush them, and if they stay away they lose.

All the scenarios force you towards the middle now, which is so much better than the old COntested Ground/Process of Elimination.


Multiple heavies were not a problem, so long as I played cautiously with eKreoss (Thrust), Seneschal, Fire of Salvation (remember there is a free melee attack associated with his free move if you are already engaged), KE, Gravus and Bastions.
TBH Bastions under the feat are fantastic at dealing with heavies because with transferring damage you can ensure you are getting 10 Weaponmaster attacks on that heavy, even if they are all on 1 wound - who cares?! You just ruined a heavy worth 10points and protected your caster and soaked up a ton of wounds.

[paradox]

List and brief summary here:

http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=170796&postcount=65

I played Kreoss with IR on himself all day and up front. Gave me the caster kills in games 1 and 2. Game 3 was cagier, but being way up gave me almost his whole army (which evaporated on my feat). Game 4, well, being too close to Typhon with hot dice did me in. Carnie was just putting me out of my misery, really. So it cost me the final game, and SOS hosed me into 3rd place (somehow?). I did get a trophy though.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs180.snc3/20750_1215877323265_1418799169_30504911_8036989_n. jpg

[dicegod]

Congrats - you should have come second, playing the guy who won makes your SoS unbeatable AFAIK.

How did the Bastion dying save eKreoss?
He doesn't heal from simultaneous attacks any more... :( Unless you mean he dealt 18 damage total but after the first or second spray he died...?

I'm sourcing some pictures to make my battle reports a little prettier.


I am running a 50pt tournament this weekend, if I do end up playing I think I will run eKreoss again. No stone unturned and all that - a 50pt outing would be good as well.

Playing him, overall, has been equivilant to investingating the taste of a cinder block.

What do people think of this?

eKreoss
-Fire of Salvation
-Vanquisher
Avatar
5xBastions
10xTFG
4xChoir
6xDeliverers
Vassal
Covenant
Rhupert
3xWracks


From my 35pt list I have lost the Gravus/KE module for some more guns, and picked up the Avatar. I am sad to see the module go, as well as the Seneschal... but there just doesn't seem to be points.
Gravus on the feat turn is a killing machine, with a chain weapon weaponmaster, impact attacks and tokens. A potential 8 attacks that's absolutely brutal.
I find he attracts Defender rounds though.

Three heavies plus the feat should be adequate for taking care of any other armor I encounter especially with the Avatar.


Deliverers are to put paid to units I hate like Nyss Hunters, Gun mages, Black 13th etc. As well as the Vanquisher's gun, which can do some direct damage too.

[paradox]

All 3 SPs in total did 18 damage. A bastion died in one of them. Leaving me at 1 health.
And here I thought ARM21 vs POW14 X3 I would be OK.... :rolleyes:
I also did'nt expect the carnie to get to me, but the player managed to clear a hill of 5 KE, 1 TFG, the reclaimer and another bastion (prior to me being SPed by Typhon), allowing carnie to trample over the 6th (the KE lived...he was pro) and reach melee.

[SaltyBob]

That last list looks good. The only thing I would say is that your deployment zone could get quite crowded.

Also, if you are not having fun playing him why bother? I don't think you will convince anyone, even yourself, that he is a top tier caster.

[dicegod]

I kinda feel like I have to finish what I started :p
I need to know that I have tested him as much as I can before I can leave it, and I want to write quite a comprehensive (for such a very simple caster) tactica.

[SteveinNYC]

What do people think of this?

eKreoss
-Fire of Salvation
-Vanquisher
Avatar
5xBastions
10xTFG
4xChoir
6xDeliverers
Vassal
Covenant
Rhupert
3xWracks

From my 35pt list I have lost the Gravus/KE module for some more guns, and picked up the Avatar. I am sad to see the module go, as well as the Seneschal... but there just doesn't seem to be points.
Gravus on the feat turn is a killing machine, with a chain weapon weaponmaster, impact attacks and tokens. A potential 8 attacks that's absolutely brutal.
I find he attracts Defender rounds though.

Three heavies plus the feat should be adequate for taking care of any other armor I encounter especially with the Avatar.

Deliverers are to put paid to units I hate like Nyss Hunters, Gun mages, Black 13th etc. As well as the Vanquisher's gun, which can do some direct damage too.

I like Gravus+KEE over Deliverers+TFG. I find KEE very versatile (melee w/ weaponmaster or shooting w/ blessed crossbows), and if they die they feed Gravus and FoS. To me, Vanquisher+Vassal makes the Deliverers overkill, but YMMV.

[hausdorff space]

I am disappointed that this thread pales in comparison to Fires of Communion.

[dicegod]

It's because eKreoss sucks.

And I have been very busy lately organising my move to Australia.

[dicegod]

Game 1

pSkarre
^Slayer
^Reaper
10 McThralls
Gerlak

eKreoss
^Fire of Salvation
5xBastions
6xTFG


Turn 1


Running, Inviolable Resolve on the Bastions and Sacrosacnt on the TFG.
Skarre Sac Lambs the McThralls for 4 focus.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q26/pacman1612/February2010022.jpg

Caption: Before Cryx players turn two

Turn 2


Skarre gives two to the Reaper. Reaper wanders up and tries a boosted shot at the Bastions but between Inviolable Resolve and shifting the damage to other Bastions the drag fails.
Skarre sac lambs for 3 and the McThralls get into a charging position.


I upkeep my two focus, and camp 5 focus. I drop eKreoss' feat and kill 4 McThralls, take the Reaper to 5 boxes with the Bastions, do the same to the Slayer with 4 TFG and keep Fire of Salvation in front of eKreoss.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q26/pacman1612/February2010027.jpg

Caption: Bastions charge Reaper under Strength of Arms.

Turn 3

Skarre allocates three to the Slayer, casts Dark Guidance and drops her feat. Due to some amazing rolls the two TFG destroy the Slayer on free strikes as it tramples away to try and reach Fire of Salvation on the hill.
The Reaper kills a Bastion with it's disabled Hell Driver and Tusks, and the McThralls kill a Bastion and 3 TFG. (Becoming KD in the process)


I am able to finish off the Reaper and Gerlak with the Bastions, and kill a good chunk of the McThralls as well, leaving Skarre all on her lonesome, at which point he calls the game.



Strength of Arms for the win this game - it erases infantry and let me kill a heavy with TFG! I rolled obscenely well with them though, made up for my extremely poor rolls with the Bastions who couldn't even kill a Reaper in one round.

Gerlak was scary, but he was kept back. Finisher would have really hurt my Bastions and he can circumvent Sacrosanct with "No Sleeping on the Job", allowing him to kill most of the TFG in one turn.

eKreoss didn't do a whole lot this game except provide a feat and try not to die. He and the Fire of Salvation acted as stop gaps incase I lost the infantry so I could deal with the heavies and still have something left to kill Skarre. I didn't want to end up with eKreoss vs pSkarre one on one as eKreoss would lose.

[dmwelles]

I've played a few 50 pt games with eKreoss with the following lists:

eKreoss
^FoS
^Vanquisher
Min Choir
Vassal x 2
Min Errants
Max Bastions
Knights Exemplar
Paladin
Daughters
Gravus
Seneschal

A second variation where I replace the FoS with a Crusader and Vilmon


Initial Thoughts:
My army was built around the feat turn. Gravus/eKreoss's Cadre ensure the exemplars have some added protection, IR on the bastions to make them ultra beefy.

I have come to 3 conclusions about this list:
1 - The biggest problem is clearing up movement and charge lanes on the feat turn. You have a lot of melee models, and they're not all that fast.
2 - The daughters are most effective as a threat. The longer you can keep them all alive, but still threatening the enemy, the better.
3 - Errants are near-useless on the feat turn.

Elaboration (in random order! :) ):
Point 3 - Errants have many uses, but eKreoss' feat isn't one of them. On the charge you can expect them to do ~23 damage, denting a heavy jack, and wrecking just about anything else. But then the second attack comes, and they probably won't scratch a heavy jack, and against lighter opposition it's already dead - they don't have reach, so they probably won't be killing something else. This is ultimately fine, though, because their primary purpose in this army is to do some light engagement and provide a screen for the rest of your army. They do this admirably, especially if you spread them out and put sacrosanct on them

Point 1 - Leading with the errants, and maybe the jacks, is a pretty solid move. The errants will bite it - that's okay, they're just there to deliver your harder-hitters. It would also be reasonable to run a couple KE in front of the rest of the group to help screen and build up the strength of the others for the feat turn.

Point 2 - I don't claim to be an expert with the daughters. I have used them in about 6 games now, and they seem to be most effective as a distraction - they're only 5 points, but they can easily occupy twice that if your opponent is wary of them. Their best role in this army, as far as I can tell, is off on a flank applying some pressure but waiting to sweep in on the feat, or right behind the front line, leave charge lanes open for other units.


I don't find FoS to be worth the points in this army. Dispel is not worth it, and his extra abilities over the Crusader don't really help. If he had reach it would be a different story, but he doesn't. On the other hand, crusdar + vilmon gives you an extra 2 attacks over FoS, added flexibility, and reach on vilmon. Vilmon hits as hard as a heavy, and reach gives you a lot of options about where to place him on the feat - if you one shot something, chances are you can hit something else.

the Seneschal is ridiculous here. Point him at a heavy and let him go - 4 WM attacks including the slam, which is guaranteed on the feat.

/edit
The bastions are also amazing - they'll definitely survive until the feat, and then you get 10 attacks, again with reach to make things flexible.

[Yertle4]

So what you're essentially saying is that everything I have ever said about the Protectorate is correct?

[Soulblighter]

It's because eKreoss sucks.

eKreoss is the new Amon lol. Im not sure why eKreoss has such a counter-intuitive spell list. I find it really depressing that he does almost nothing to help Knights Exemplar. Why didnt he have Crusader's Call or Ignite? Those were spells that wouldve made sense on him.

[Soylent]

eKreoss is the new Amon lol.

Ah to be so naive.

[paradox]

eKreoss is the new Amon lol.
I must be a pretty damned good player then! :cool:

[Soulblighter]

I dont mean hes bad. I just mean hes like MK1 Amon because certain things about his design are counter-intuitive. Giving fearless to fearless units. Sacrosanct not working with self-sacrifice. And hes got no way to speed KE up which is their biggest weakness. Youd think eKreoss would be the caster youd wanna use for an all exemplar list, but Harby just does it better.

[paradox]

I could care less about the fearless part of IR. I use it for the +2ARM.
Sacrosanct has uses on lots of stuff besides errants.
KE are a great 2nd wave. Run, run, counter-charge!
Wait for the tiers. But you can have an exemplar theme with him and still have a good list. Note that IMO exemplar theme doesn't = all/only exemplars.
If you don't marry yourself to exemplar themes with im (some like to, and that's OK), he has as many options as any other caster.

[jandrese]

You know what other spell has +2 ARM? Defenders Ward, you know, that thing he used to have that's superior to Inviolable Resolve.

I wouldn't count on the tiers doing much. Maybe an advance move on the KE or start with an upkeep already running.

eKreoss isn't outright terrible, but he feels too much like a feat machine much of the time, especially compared to his old versatile self.

[Soulblighter]

I could care less about the fearless part of IR. I use it for the +2ARM.

I use it for the +2 ARM too. However it still bothers me that the second component of the spell will go to waste in his tier list because everything will already be fearless.


Sacrosanct has uses on lots of stuff besides errants

Like what? His tier list is going to exclude non-Exemplar units. Errants really are the best option for sacrosanct in his tier list so youd think sacrosanct would be compatible with self-sacrifice.


eKreoss isn't outright terrible, but he feels too much like a feat machine much of the time, especially compared to his old versatile self.

eKreoss' feat is fantastic. Its just his spell list doesnt make a whole lot of sense. If you look at Stratkov his spell list completely supports his feat and playstyle. eKreoss's spell list is just a mess and does nothing to really help his army get into melee or maximize his feat. I think eKreoss' flaws will be more apparent when his tier list comes out. I just dont see how eKreoss' tier list is going to compete when he can only use DEF12 units with 8" charge ranges (absurdly overcosted Vengers being the one exception). His tier list is going to be suicide against gunlines even with ideal tier bonuses.

[Kypt]

Perhaps he'll make the Vengers cheaper? :D

[Soylent]

I use IR all the time for the fearless part...on Daughters. The fact that they happen to get +2 ARM against AoEs is a bonus. If I'm not going against any terrifying entities then I'll put it on something else. Think of IR as a utility spell that has multiple uses. I've played him quite a bit and while you may disagree, he is a solid competitive caster.

I wouldn't speculate too much on the tiers as we can't build lists till we see them.

[SnakeEyes]

His tier list is going to be suicide against gunlines even with ideal tier bonuses.
That's why you bring jacks, specifically Vanqs. Infantry loses to gunlines. Jacks are the counter. All tiers allows unlimited jack options.

[Soulblighter]

That's why you bring jacks, specifically Vanqs. Infantry loses to gunlines. Jacks are the counter. All tiers allows unlimited jack options.

Of course but then that begs the question of "why not use another caster?" Because lets face it eKreoss doesnt do a whole lot for jacks. He doesnt have a single jack spell. His feat and all his spells are geared towards infantry units so I gotta think were meant to use infantry with him. Using more than 2 jacks with him feels a bit awkward to me.


I wouldn't speculate too much on the tiers as we can't build lists till we see them.

I think its pretty safe to say eKreoss' tier list wont allow TFG or daughters.

What Id like to see for eKreoss' tier bonuses are advance move for Knights Exemplar, Free Errants UA, 1 point cheaper Seneschals, and +2" deployment zone. That would really help make eKreoss a little more in-your-face by speeding his Knights up a bit. Seneschals at 2 points each would definitely be worth taking as well.

[silverpuppy]

Ekreoss is my answer to cryx. he is great against them, there reliance on arc nodes to keep there casters out of harms way can be shut down, his arm buff helps with the nickel and dime aoes and what not. and them being a little more melee based really lend them to a good ekreoss battle

[SnakeEyes]

Of course but then that begs the question of "why not use another caster?"
Because his tiers will likely give benefits to Exemplar and a player likes fielding Exemplar.
eKreoss may not be our uber-jack caster but he can run them fine. You just need a couple Vanq's to make up for the Exemplar armies' weakness to the gunline.

I'm assuming your argument that his feat and spells are geared towards infantry is based on that all buff effects are magnified over the quantity of models. But I've won games because of auto-hitting, extra attacking jacks. Or just plain worn down the other army because of it. It depends on opponent's army composition and variables of the game to determine whether the feat is better on jacks or infantry.

And Inviolable Resolve better on units than an Avatar or a Templar? I gotta' say an ARM 23 jack with Reach in your opponent's face could definitely be more of a problem than bumping up a unit by +2 ARM.

His feat is deceptively powerful. It's not the damage rolls that usually prevents you from killing something, it's the attack roll. A "lowly" POW 10 TFG will kill almost any other infantry on average damage rolls. Why they don't obliterate all infantry every game is because they miss attacks. But now make all those attack auto-hit and give them another...

[Soulblighter]

Yeah but if the attack roll is mostly what matters then nKreoss also gives you autohitting melee attacks and Defenders Ward is much better than Inviolable Resolve. Lamentation is also useful against every faction now while Castigate is only useful against half the factions in the game. nKreoss just seems like a much better caster to me. Am I missing something about eKreoss? What makes him different than nKreoss? The extra attacks on the feat sure but id rather have the knockdown most of the time.

[SnakeEyes]

pKreoss is a more versatile caster. I'm not saying that eKreoss is the pKreoss equal in a competitive setting. Although, the competitive difference is not terribly vast.

So why take eKreoss when you can take pKreoss? Because after you've played the game long enough, you've won enough games and tournaments, and generally satisfied your internal nerd ego, you become free. Warmachine no longer becomes a competition to prove yourself. It evolves into a game to enjoy and be mentally challenging. That's when it doesn't matter what caster you take because you can have a challenging and fun fight with any of them.

EDIT: Apologies to OP for helping to derail the purpose of this thread. I just checked what the original rules for thread posting were. I'll withhold further posts unless I have something relevant to the original discussion.

[dicegod]

Seeing as I have moved to another country and am trying to organise my life around classes at the moment, I would say that any talk of eKreoss is good by me :p

I can think of very few reasons why I would take eKreoss over pKreoss.

[paradox]

Yeah but if the attack roll is mostly what matters then nKreoss also gives you autohitting melee attacks and Defenders Ward is much better than Inviolable Resolve. Lamentation is also useful against every faction now while Castigate is only useful against half the factions in the game. nKreoss just seems like a much better caster to me. Am I missing something about eKreoss? What makes him different than nKreoss? The extra attacks on the feat sure but id rather have the knockdown most of the time.
So don't play him? :shrug:

I enjoy playing epic Kreoss. He can AP or slam. Sacrosanct on daughters is mean. Feat on daughters is mean too. Sacrosanct on KE is pretty punishing. The atatck multiplier + auto hitting form the feat makes his feat VERY different from his regular version. It's mass melee carnage. It does sick things. Many people just don't see it coming, unless they have faced it before.

Kreoss pop n drop is largely a shooting feat. Can you melee? Sure. It just won't have the same impact though. Epic Kreoss doubles melee output on most warrior models we have. Plus some things are immune to KD.

They have diffeent styles. Appreciate them for what they are. Or don't. :)

[SteveinNYC]

They have diffeent styles. Appreciate them for what they are. Or don't. :)

Agreed. I think eKreoss is hands down better than pKreoss. pKreoss is good if you want to play a ranged game or want ways to react to your opponent. eKreoss rewards aggressive play and having a strategy and executing it. eKreoss always gives me an exciting, aggressive game. pKreoss can be powerful or he can be neutered, but he's always boring.

[dicegod]

I think what it boils down to is that Mk2 punishes one dimensional lists. I like my lists to have ranged, melee and magic components.
eKreoss really suffers by being too focused on melee IMO, and his denial can be rather weak at times.

pKreoss can use his feat to benefit any of the phases and all of them at the same time, and he has much better denial/buffs.

[Soulblighter]

I think what it boils down to is that Mk2 punishes one dimensional lists. I like my lists to have ranged, melee and magic components.
eKreoss really suffers by being too focused on melee IMO, and his denial can be rather weak at times.

pKreoss can use his feat to benefit any of the phases and all of them at the same time, and he has much better denial/buffs.

I actually feel that eKreoss isnt one dimensional enough. I dont care if hes too focused on melee. The problem is he offers nothing to a melee army other than his feat. He doesnt have ignite, crusader's call, vortex of destruction, or any of those staple spells you see on melee support casters. His spell list just completely baffles me. He feels very directionless to me.

[dicegod]

Well the fact that his spell list is really weak is a whole other matter.

[paradox]

His direction is putting mace to face, and punishing the enemy for trying to reciprocate.

You might try idrians with him. Idrians with sacrosanct can be pretty annoying and supply some ranged.

[dicegod]

Every time I have tried Idrians I have been severely disappointed with them, no reach for the feat and situational ranged power that are easy to kill without a buff (which he really doesn't have).

My ranged unit of choice with him has been Deliverers because they are relatively cheap, very long ranged, take advantage of the KD generated from Sacrosanct and you can tell Gun Mages, Rangers, Rifle Corp etc to **** off.
And a 5"AOE POW16 CRA ain't bad either.

[Yertle4]

His direction is putting mace to face, and punishing the enemy for trying to reciprocate.

I used to think that as well, then converted to Khador, whose warcasters make eKreoss look like a little kid running naked and free in a field of sunflowers.

Grand Exemplar Kreoss is torn between his Khadoran heritage of face-beating and his Menite heritage of denial - and consequently, sucks at both.

[Gavriel]

the Seneschal is ridiculous here. Point him at a heavy and let him go - 4 WM attacks including the slam, which is guaranteed on the feat.


Whoa wait, can you make the extra attack before slamming? I thought the additional came after your initials and the smite occurs immediately after the initial attacks?

[Moonblade]

Use Sacrosanct on Daughters and Inviolable Resolve on Exemplar Cinerators and you'll say good things about eKreoss' spell list.

[jandrese]

Whoa wait, can you make the extra attack before slamming? I thought the additional came after your initials and the smite occurs immediately after the initial attacks?

You can make your extra attack anytime you want during your action according to the wording.