what faction do you hate to go against?

[nicholas_342]

So the title is pretty obvious. I'm just asking because seeing Cygnar set up across from me leads to muttered complaints about a broken faction, followed by me getting my you know what handed to me rather soundly. Seriously, I'm not sure that I have ever won against Cygnar, no matter who my opponent is. The other factions I don't do too bad against. I'm just curious if there are others out there who have an entire faction that is their Achilles heel.

[jdeckert]

Legion. I really don't think they're broken (probably a bit overrated, even), but every time I play them something ridiculous happens. Like when my beast-form Kromac used his feat to put a whopping 5 damage on Typhon (who didn't have any spells/animi up), Saeryn's last remaining beast. Or when I absent-mindedly moved my 5 focus Thunderhead within 5" of Vayl when 6" would have been enough, triggering dark sentinel and taking away my assassination opportunity. Or when I had nearly tabled my opponent, only to have a teraph and Vayl assassinate Butcher thanks to crazy dice rolls.

My record against Legion has to be something like 5-50.

[justsam]

circle for me. i know they're not, but it just seems to me like the whole faction is cheaty. kromac does NOT help in that assessment, either.

[John Q.]

It's Legion for me. I agree they're not broken, but the Legion players in my area are all fantastic players, and I know when I get drawn against them in a tournament or see them across the table in a casual game it's gonna be a hard, hard game.

[djowatts]

menoth! choir and fire are a pain in the behind!

[katadder]

menoth or cryx.

menoth with sevvy for the cheap choir and supported by sevvy and his eye of menoth (so much better than incite) so that everything is effective MAT9 and P+S 19 even on open fists +3/+3 is soo wrong.

cryx with denny as her debuffs through cheap arc nodes are horrible. i even took her epic sister up against her and basically had one jack that could do nothing then on my feat turn all my jacks doing nothing as she counter feated then finished me. always the same way. and with banes I have seen her reduce karcher by 7 armour on feat turn, bye bye karchev.

[danis2005]

Imperial...oh wait, it's a player. Ok, Khador then :P

[Polar_Bear]

I welcome any and all opponents to the other side of the table from me.

I do know that some games are going to be tougher than others, depending on what I've decided to bring to the field that day, but to say, "I hate playing against X" just doesn't fit into my vocabulary.

There may be some people that I would prefer not to play against, but definitely no factions that I would prefer not to play against.

PB

[vengence88]

Legion. I really don't think they're broken (probably a bit overrated, even), but every time I play them something ridiculous happens. Like when my beast-form Kromac used his feat to put a whopping 5 damage on Typhon (who didn't have any spells/animi up), Saeryn's last remaining beast. Or when I absent-mindedly moved my 5 focus Thunderhead within 5" of Vayl when 6" would have been enough, triggering dark sentinel and taking away my assassination opportunity. Or when I had nearly tabled my opponent, only to have a teraph and Vayl assassinate Butcher thanks to crazy dice rolls.

My record against Legion has to be something like 5-50.

WHAAAAAAAATTTTT?!?!?

But serioulsy thx you for being the one person I've ever heard say that. For me its pretty much Khador. I don't think they're broke or anything like that(feels like its really close some days though). Honestly its mostly my dice seem to hate me when any WM faction is on the other side of the table, its like my beasts see a jack and they're like "Um...no? My Scythean is the worst he will thoroughly pound a light, but as soon as its a heavy jack/beast im rolling 3's all day to hit when i need 4's...Typhon isn't much better either unless I'm gunning for the caster then he's all "Oh, so if this guy dies its over? I need an 11 to hit? DEAD!"-and that's always the 3rd spray its like he wants me to think he's gonna fail...what a jerk right?

(yes my models are hims and hers and have personality, and yes I'm crazy :P)

EDIT:Whew I saw MOD and was like and another hate thread gets locked lol

[Kallas]

Circle. Circle, in my opinion are the closest to outright broken in the game; they have no weaknesses whatsoever.

[Zazoo]

Cryx I dont particularly like facing but its more the opponents. Some people are just not fun to play against.

[LEJKaya]

Legion.
Two reasons for this:

1: They are Circles anti-faction. Circle does alpha strike, movement and hit & run. Legion are faster, hit harder and basically do it all better than circle. To make up for that, Circle have a good control element... which Legion just totally ignore!

2: The main Legion player in my area is my main opponent and one of the best players. Our game in any tournament often decides that tournament.

[Bully Bully Mahu]

Cryx.

Because of all the factions in the game, they have the best counters to my two factions, either in massed stealth or straight board control. Add that to just devastating feats, and it is always an uphill battle for me.

[equilshift]

Circle. Circle, in my opinion are the closest to outright broken in the game; they have no weaknesses whatsoever.

Most of their heavies are about pow 14-15. I'd call that a weakness. Ram something hard to kill down their throats next time you play them and see if it works.

[LEJKaya]

Circle. Circle, in my opinion are the closest to outright broken in the game; they have no weaknesses whatsoever.

Zero hitting power. Throw anything with high ARM at them and they struggle.
There are casters in the game that a circle list simply cannot kill.

[DaveZee]

I know that Circle has the tendency to hit a bit lite, but a warpwolf warped for strength under PKaya hits almost everything and does a ton of damage, then pops back to Kaya, so no retaliation. That is tough.

Those high Def, Arc Node, cheap chickens of Cryx cause fits, never mind the bane thrall/Tartarus "fun."

In reality, it has far more to do with the skill of the player, rather than the army he or she fields.

[GlassJaw]

In general, Menoth. Regardless of what I'm playing, I know the game is going to be a slugfest and a grind. I find playing against Menoth to be by far the least fun.

When I play Barnabas I really don't like seeing Trolls on the other side of the table, but that's just because of the specific matchup.

[Pyrodude32]

Legion and Cryx...

[muffinman331]

Cryx for me. I seem to have a lot of trouble dealing with just about everything that they bring to the table. they have some seriously annoying casters and units, and I just haven't learned how to beat them yet. the only times I've ever won against cryx was in 15 point games with a new player...

[Lawso42]

Hmm. I'd have to agree with P.Bear. It really comes down to what I'm playing that day. Its usually specific casters/lists instead of the faction itself. I don't usually struggle too much with Cygnar, but Seige has always been a rough match-up for me. I don't mind Legion, but when I'm playing my Cryx, Saeryn is a pain in the neck. For me, its just those natural bad match-ups that I dread to see.

-Lawso

[Nuriochi_sol]

Legion and Menoth have been my consistent banes.

[skarreslave2]

the faction being played by a whiny player is what I don't look forward to. Faction doesn't matter so much as the person playing them. A good player takes the time to learn what his opponents stuff can do at that start of the game and plans for it rather than complaining something is OP or borken when it catchs them off guard.

[Maou_Mint]

I don't actually hate playing against any faction. Now slow players who aren't utter newbies are a different story. That said, I'm weak against Khador and Legion but I don't hate em. So yeah, certain types of players are what I find irritating to play against as opposed to factions.

[Errant_knight]

I'm in with the player not faction camp here. Any game can be fun and competitive as long as your opponent is good.

That said I have problems with trolls. Tough everywhere and haven't played a game against them that did'nt have mulg in the list.

[Hashmal]

Absolutely none. I have a few casters I don't like, but no factions.

People always groan when they see my Menoth, though. :)

[PyroSikTh]

Menoth - all those AOEs don't care for my Stealth or DEF buffs :(

[sourclams]

I dislike Cygnar's Haleys, but that's the only thing I really would say that gives me trouble, simply because blanket no-charge and blanket no-turn are very difficult to gain traction against with Trolls.

Other than that, there's really nothing I feel uncomfortable against. I tend to play pHoarluk, and although the internet says he's horrible, I find that I generally have a counter for almost everything I find myself up against.

[Bully Bully Mahu]

I tend to play pHoarluk, and although the internet says he's horrible, I find that I generally have a counter for almost everything I find myself up against.

I don't understand the hate for him myself. He has Banishing Ward and Purification. In trolls, which already has massive amounts of Caster independent buffs and abilities.

[Blugger]

Cryx because banes are everywhere and tartersauce is silly

Trolls for that 33% chance that their important solo or caster will survive a ranged assassination, saving the trollplayer some grief when they should have been outplayed

[ThatRickGuy]

Circle is challenging, especially when fielding Khador. The movement shenanigans just kill our slowness, and I don't buy the "circle can't deal with high armor" fooey. Warp Wolf and Stalker have no problem absolutely crushing ARM 20 jacks, let alone ARM 18 casters.

Legion is incredibly tricky, but they are paper thin. Light on armor and wounds, if you can deal with the alpha strike through careful placement, you can absolutely destroy them on the counter strike.

Cryx I don't think is broken, per se, the army just lends itself to making up for mistakes. Two perfect players, one with Cryx, the other with something else, will typically play pretty much on par. But two junior players, making lots of mistakes, Cryx will often make up for the mistakes that would have ended the game for the opponent.

The only thing that really makes me want to shake hands and pack up is the Mage Hunter Strike Force +UA. Properly played, those bastards will cut you down to ribbons, and be incredibly hard to kill with AoE thanks to the Arcanist making a 7" bubble of no-blast damage. Even if you take him our, they're still high leadership and will spread out 2+ inches each to ensure minimum damage from AoEs. Luckily Ret isn't a super popular faction around here. But when they come out, that damn unit is always going to be with them.

Stealth, high DEF, ignores LOS, ignores def/arm buffs and focus, weapon masters against jacks, CMA, etc... I know they came out pre-beta, but DAMN is that an over the top 10 point unit.

-Rick

[TheOtherChosenOne]

For me its cry i think. They were my main opposistion for the longest time and i still hae trouble with them. it just seems like they have the best of everything. they have a ton of dudes that wreck everything, the best overall set of casters in the game, great offense, good defense, and fantastic warjacks. >.> im in the group that feels an uphill battle everytime they are put on the other side of the table

[Nighteyes]

Circle and Cygnar for me

[Neomorte]

Trollbloods. i dislike them beyond reason.

[Tianaris]

Interesting. When I first saw this thread I thought 'oh no, just another hate thread' but now I have to realize that it went into quite a different direction! It rather seems like everybody just tells stories about their personal nemesis faction, often adding some comment like 'well I don't think their broken, but I just have a hard time against them...'
Hate is almost completely absent from this thread, it feels more like strong personal antipathy based on experience mostly limited to one's meta...

On the other hand, there's a significant mention of Legion, Cryx and Circle here. But I guess that's just coincidence...

[nicholas_342]

I am actually glad that this didn't turn into a hate thread. I didn't think about that until after I had already posted it and went to work. So thank you all for not letting it degenerate into a hate thread. I do find many of your responses interesting. Especially seeing as how Cryx is one of the factions I have the least trouble with, and that one seems to be one of the most common one's mentioned. And yes, the player does have a large part in the difficulty of a game. One of the Cygnar players in my group is a great player, which I'm sure plays a part in why I don't like the faction, although I didn't like them before he started playing. Against him, it seems like knowing what his army can do ahead of time doesn't help. I just know ahead of time what to expect when a particular unit engages.

[thag-rush]

Cryx. by far.

[tonyzahn]

At the moment: Siege with Rangers. I've played against variations on this twice with my Legion, and both times got swept off the board with no idea what I could have done differently. I don't mind losing, but I at least want to learn something from it.

[RafiK]

After 37 replies:
Cryx (is leading, as always) has been mentioned 7 times,
Legion and Protectorate - 5 times each
Circle and Cygnar - 3 times each
Khador and Trollbloods - once each

Cryx - for now - has all the hate... as usual :-)
I'm curious if there is a coincidence between personal character and choice of faction. We, Cryxian players are that bad or it's just our faction?

I like Tianaris'es point of view: we are actually telling stories about our personal nemezis here.
And here's mine...

I really don't like cygnaran style and toys which are obviously pointed at cryxian way of un-life. I bring shenanigans... and The Blues has counters! It's happening all the time.
So Cygnar is my type.
I dislike that faction soooo much that I had to buy these figurines. And now - guess what: I'm one of them :-D

cheers

[HRM]

As a Khador player, but primarily as a NEW player, I'd say, right now, any Hordes faction, haha.

[Brandubh]

Cryx. Undead really ruin Circle's day.

[Lawso42]

Trollbloods. i dislike them beyond reason.

But we wuv you Neo... ;)



Cryx - for now - has all the hate... as usual :-)
I'm curious if there is a coincidence between personal character and choice of faction. We, Cryxian players are that bad or it's just our faction?

At first... I thought it was the faction, but after being called a d'bag about 8 times over the weekend playing a Menoth army I borrowed for an event, I'm starting to think its me. lol. :o :D

-Lawso

[brotherscott]

In my world it has to be Cryx, followed closely by Legion.

The local meta dictates this, as we have some very good Cryx and Legion players.

Everything else can be a tough fight, but for the most part it comes down to a roll of the dice and hoping my strategy/ tactics have not failed me.

[moorg]

Epic Haley's a faction, right?

[Rochr]

As a Cygnar player I seem to have alot of trouble with some Cryxx casters, like Terminus. Whenever I see him and Banes + UA + Tartarus I get the chills. Deneghra and 2-3 arc nodes really takes the piss out of most games too, she can threaten you from safety across the entire board and you can't do much about it. Other than that im pretty confident in my ability to beat most factions and warlocks.

[DeathnGlory]

When I play Circle or Cryx in a league or tournament then I always wince when I face Everblight
When I play Skorne I really don't want to see Cryx across the table
But in the club they're the ones I want to play the most to practice manoeuvres and learn how to beat.

[warlorddrax]

Khador and Menoth.
it was Menoth, but as i play more and more Khador, i hate them more and more than Menoth. at least i can hit menoth...

[rivenwyrm]

As a Khadoran, I seem to get rolled most by... of all factions... Mercs. Cheap jacks with the same ARM and dmg boxes, but twice the utility? Gimme! Ten million AoEs to kill all my kayazy/WGI? Sad face :(! Feats so insane that you feel like sobbing in your mother's arms? Delightful! That and the merc players here are all quite good.

That said, playing against Cygnar always brings out the meanest in me (I.e., I started bringing the WGDS). For some reason, having two units of ATGM shoot all my Kayazy from beyond their run range kind of irks me... Ret's similar but at least I know they'll crumple once I punch them (No ARM 21+ jacks, or ARM 20 single wound troopers), and so far their casters can't seal the deal alone, whereas several of Cygnar's casters can kill you from 16" away with just a jack, reinholdt, and their feat, or even alone.

[Hunter]

I find Menoth incredibly frustrating, although that's kinda the point with them! There's no faction I really hate to play against as such. I don't really care if I get my *** handed to me, as long as I have a fun game. I just don't have a lot of fun playing against Menoth. Nothing against the faction or those who play it, it's just a personal thing.

[Custardboy]

I play legion, and its cryx and khador.
Cryx just says 'I'm immune' to our many 'living' abilities and their excessive damage and debuffs hurt costly beasts.
Khador just gets tiresome at times when armies keep taking the same choices. WGD, Beast09, Great Bears, Gorman, Eiryss and then whatever suits the warcaster. That, and the WGD is BS.

[BryanC]

Trolls for me. They mess up my math by making me kill them twice.

[Lanz]

It would be Khador for me. Not because I struggle or have any trouble fighting them, so much as it seems like khador lists require 0 finesse and tactics to play, and that my opponent doesn't have to put in a fraction of the effort I do to win, they are just handed their combos, tricks, and tactics on a silver platter.

[quindraco]

It would be Khador for me. Not because I struggle or have any trouble fighting them, so much as it seems like khador lists require 0 finesse and tactics to play, and that my opponent doesn't have to put in a fraction of the effort I do to win, they are just handed their combos, tricks, and tactics on a silver platter.

I think one of these implies the other; you're having no trouble fighting your Khador opponents because they're not applying any finesse or tactics. A canny Khador player would apply both, and probably give you a greater challenge. Sorry your meta is like that. :'(

I build every list I make around the fact that I might have to face a MHSF, and I will not willingly field an army that can't handle one, so I nominate Retribution for single-handedly changing every list I make.

[Sardonic Artery]

As a Cygnar player, Retribution and Terminus Cryx lists are tough. As a Searforge player, Legion and Circle are tough.

[Lord Azathoth]

Retribution for me, just because I don't have their book and so always forget what is what and what they do.

[NoGamingInMississippi]

Circle. Circle, in my opinion are the closest to outright broken in the game; they have no weaknesses whatsoever.

Tell that to the Circle players.

[NoGamingInMississippi]

Got to go with Menoth myself, but most factions have one or two caster/locks that I could do without.

[Brandubh]

Circle. Circle, in my opinion are the closest to outright broken in the game; they have no weaknesses whatsoever.

^ The only comment in this thread that actually made me laugh out loud. If you think something is broken or "close to broken" (which I'm assuming is a way to get around being classified as a whiner by page 5), just play Circle for a while. Get some guys at the store to let you proxy models or loan you models. Play with nothing but Circle for a full month straight.

I'm not saying that Circle is weak, but I would say that they've probably got some of the most glaring weaknesses in the game. The flip side is that they're one of the fastest factions, which means that a good player can compensate for those weaknesses.

Circle is a lot like a rapier. In skilled hands, it's deadly and blindingly fast. But in the hands of mid-level players (which is what most of us are) it can be tricky to win when you're facing a warhammer or a battleaxe.

[doom_reaver]

factions are all fine a little shakey vs Skorne but thats because I don't see them round my way often. I hate playing against spam lists of any faction or calibre they just stick in my craw a bit both aesthetically and the fact that they have a tendendency to be one-dimensional and quite boring.

[bigpappa]

menoth- its just says NO!! alot to me

[starwoof]

I have never had fun fighting Khador. Their weaknesses aren't really weaknesses.

[Lanz]

I think one of these implies the other; you're having no trouble fighting your Khador opponents because they're not applying any finesse or tactics. A canny Khador player would apply both, and probably give you a greater challenge. Sorry your meta is like that. :'(


That would be a clever deduction, except for the part where most of them play other factions too, and are perfectly capable of finesse and tactics.

[BilesyBelcher]

With Cryx, I hate Cygnar with a passion. With Gators, Menoth is my extreme enemy. Haven't played with Khador yet, but I have a feeling Cryx is going to be a pain.

[lastspartacus]

Menoth, always Menoth. Even if I win, its an unfun, slow grind. I'd much rather be defeated with an honest kill than an hours long victory against the churchies.

[Dark Fledgling]

Cryx, more then anything its cryx 100%. Legion? No problem. Menoth? What evs. Khador? Trolls? Skorne? Never a problem. Somehow though, cryx just scares the crap out of me, all the time, no questions asked...

Makes me play a bit more risky when facing them too...

-DF

[Doomcake]

Legion.
Two reasons for this:

1: They are Circles anti-faction. Circle does alpha strike, movement and hit & run. Legion are faster, hit harder and basically do it all better than circle. To make up for that, Circle have a good control element... which Legion just totally ignore!

2: The main Legion player in my area is my main opponent and one of the best players. Our game in any tournament often decides that tournament.

LOL.
Thats the case with my brother and me. He plays Legion and I play Circle. We usually battle it out for the top spots.

During the Breast Cancer Brawl tournament here, someone actually donated $60 for my brother and me to play in Round 1. lol.

[akroma1979]

As circle I gotta vote legion... I hear they dislike khador jacks.

As a broad overhead view of the game, everything balances. As a single faction taking on the world, there is brokenness for and against you.

[Pirrekurr]

Legion. Probably because I hate to read the other guys cards and they have so many special rules that I keep on forgetting. Also because in my area some of the best players are Legion players. I have never won against them in about 10 tries. On the other hand I love to play vs Cygnar. I have only lost 2 games vs them of about 10 tries.

[Azuresun]

Cryx. A lot of factions have stuff with an "If you don't take this ability into account, you LOSE!" ability. In Cryx, everything seems to be like that. Left infantry in front of Tartarus? I lose. Put warjacks in front of Bane Thralls? I lose. Positioned something wrongly? Bile Thrall / Excarnate or Deathjack catapult, I lose. Blood Hag wanders up to your Tough infantry or your beasts when they have crippled aspects? I lose. Bought models with anti-living abilities because I wasn't sure which faction I'd be facing? I lose. eDeneghra pops her feat? I lose. I'm half-tempted to play them myself, just to see what the heck their weaknesses are meant to be.

In fairness, Cryx are probably extra annoying because they use debuffs rather than buffs. Even if the end result of a loss is the same, it's more annoying to have your army made sucky rather than the enemy army made awesome.

[studderingdave]

legion, if i had to pick one.

[bronzeback40]

My dice tend to suck regardless who I'm playing against, so trolls have a slight edge because Tough has a way of trumping my precious few good rolls.

[Blugger]

That would be a clever deduction, except for the part where most of them play other factions too, and are perfectly capable of finesse and tactics.

Trust me, it's the fault of the player

Khador is extremely capable of finesse outside of loading up kayazy and winterguard with ironflesh back by some of the most interesting warcasters in the game when it comes to odd tactics and unexpected threats (eirusk, old witch, evlad). I admit things like pbutcher, pirusk, karchev and eSorscha trudging up the field with a wall of insane def infantry or jacks is pretty uninpisiring, but khador has the tools to pull off some interesting and unique games.

EDIT: Also strakov. Now that wishnailer is out, people might start exploiting his offensive positioning spells as well as his buffs.

The only real mindless buff faction in the game, imo, is trolls who hand the damn things out like candy and have a 33% chance of ignoring your attempt to kill their important support pieces. A lot of them don't even have to use their action to buff, so they can just forfeit it to stand and buff on as normal.

Unless you count the covenant as a faction, but even then you have to be wary of menoth's arc nodes and unexpected sources of speed and maneuverability.

[Lanz]

Trust me, it's the fault of the player


Yes, and by astonishing coincidence, they all play other factions just fine, but lose all finesse when they put on Khador colors.

But no, even in battle reports, even of high end tournaments, I rarely ever see anything inspiring or creative out of Khador. Sure they do have some trick elements, but Protectorate has some speedy ninja assassin models too, and that doesn't make them a faction of speedy ninjas assassins.

[pancho]

not a faction...only denegra -_-

[Blugger]

Yes, and by astonishing coincidence, they all play other factions just fine, but lose all finesse when they put on Khador colors.

But no, even in battle reports, even of high end tournaments, I rarely ever see anything inspiring or creative out of Khador. Sure they do have some trick elements, but Protectorate has some speedy ninja assassin models too, and that doesn't make them a faction of speedy ninjas assassins.

But they all have the potential to be

There is nothing inherent in the faction that forces them into the plodding monotony of the a buffed brick, khador has the potential to pull of speed and finesse just as easily as other factions outside circle. This is not an opinion, this is fact derived by the options presented in their army book.

That the people you play against do not chose to exploit this advantage is not the fault of the faction, they were the ones who chose to go the boring buff/autoinclude route.

I am told that this is the exact same reason why cryx is synonymous with banes, even though people on the cryx forum swear by their alternate infantry choices and even helljacks at times.

As for protectorate and speedy ninjas, you never played against amon have you?

[Col_Festus]

Personally it's cryx. No matter how many times I play them something comes out of the wood work and turns a game I'm winning into a resounding loss. Very frustrating.

It's interesting to see many people say that Khador requires no finesse. As a veteran Khador player I can tell you the faction is early to learn, very hard to master/finesse. Their lack of tricks is a double edged sword.

[AluminumFalcon]

Every faction I'm not playing during that game. An opponent means I have a chance to lose. Haha. :D

[Lanz]

But they all have the potential to be

There is nothing inherent in the faction that forces them into the plodding monotony of the a buffed brick, khador has the potential to pull of speed and finesse just as easily as other factions outside circle. This is not an opinion, this is fact derived by the options presented in their army book.

That the people you play against do not chose to exploit this advantage is not the fault of the faction, they were the ones who chose to go the boring buff/autoinclude route.

I am told that this is the exact same reason why cryx is synonymous with banes, even though people on the cryx forum swear by their alternate infantry choices and even helljacks at times.

I'm not even talking about the auto-includes, I'm talking about the whole faction. The only time I ever see a khador player who will do something interesting is one of the local players mixes up his lists with mercs as often as he can, and that throws things off a bit. Outside of that, a pure-khador list is as dull and transparent as it gets.

Most of the tricks that do show up are nothing to do with the models, but rather how they were used. Most of the time the tactics and finesse aren't needed, because they simply aren't. It has nothing to do with the player skill behind it, you don't need to play around with elaborate movements and tricks and combos when a lot of the stuff just has obvious pair-ups that do the job without any special care needed. "Axe to face" is very much accurate, and rarely do I see Khador tactics surpass that ideal, even in higher-level play.


As for protectorate and speedy ninjas, you never played against amon have you?

No, I haven't. Probably because I am generally the local Amon player.

But guess what? Amon's one model, not the entire faction. I guess I should break down what I meant by that ninja/tricks comparison; Sure, protectorate has some fast ninja-like models, but most of them aren't. Likewise, sure Khador has some tricks, but most of the faction doesn't.

[Bastion5]

I wouldn't necessarily say "hate" but I greatly dislike fighting Legion, shooty Cygnar, and Cryx. I play Skorne mainly and what they do messes me up bad sometimes.

[Octavius_Maximus]

I'm not even talking about the auto-includes, I'm talking about the whole faction. The only time I ever see a khador player who will do something interesting is one of the local players mixes up his lists with mercs as often as he can, and that throws things off a bit. Outside of that, a pure-khador list is as dull and transparent as it gets.

Most of the tricks that do show up are nothing to do with the models, but rather how they were used. Most of the time the tactics and finesse aren't needed, because they simply aren't. It has nothing to do with the player skill behind it, you don't need to play around with elaborate movements and tricks and combos when a lot of the stuff just has obvious pair-ups that do the job without any special care needed. "Axe to face" is very much accurate, and rarely do I see Khador tactics surpass that ideal, even in higher-level play.

If your getting beaten by them, then they dont necessarily have to change their tactics if they are succeeding.

Unfortunately, Khadors tactics are more subtle simply because we dont rely on buff/debuff spells as much, and have to rely on innate stats and abilities so much more.

[Yaum]

Epic Haley's a faction, right?
She's the game sole T5 tier list.

I play Cygnar and for me it's the Trolls...I hate playing the bastards.
I mean, Skorne are a harsh match-up, but TB just ain't fair game !

:)

[Lanz]

If your getting beaten by them, then they dont necessarily have to change their tactics if they are succeeding.

Unfortunately, Khadors tactics are more subtle simply because we dont rely on buff/debuff spells as much, and have to rely on innate stats and abilities so much more.

No, they aren't winning any more so than in any other case. Like I initially said, I don't like going up against Khador not because they are difficult, just that they seem to just get all their stuff for minimal effort on the player's part.

But that bit about the innate stats/abilities and subtle tactics? That's exactly what I'm talking about. The problem is that most of those 'subtle tactics' aren't necessarily khador-exclusive tactics, they're tactics that other factions can use too. Take away the stuff that's generic and what's left is pretty grey.

[Octavius_Maximus]

But that bit about the innate stats/abilities and subtle tactics? That's exactly what I'm talking about. The problem is that most of those 'subtle tactics' aren't necessarily khador-exclusive tactics, they're tactics that other factions can use too. Take away the stuff that's generic and what's left is pretty grey.

I find that other factions seem to get more than Khador do for less.

All you seem to be arguing is that Khador dont get the sheer number of tricky spells to allow for toolboxes.

Well duh, thats what Khador lack.

If you could give more examples about what you specifically mean, that would be nice, because i dont want to think that i am not understanding your point.

[Da-Rock]

As a Cygnar player I would say Barnabas(sp). Gators in swimming pools with a shooty Cygnar list just Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee sis me off! :-)

[thrasymacus]

I've never had a problem with Tough. Sure, there's been those chancey critical moments that make or break my plan. But occasionally my Toughed models (I play Khador, pIrusk) have saved my bacon too. There's just so many ranged attacks with roughly RNG10 + POW10 to get that 2nd shot on a KD'd toughed model and often they'll have nothing better to shoot at anyway. At average RAT 5 you can speculate on hitting by rolling about a 9+ or go for the easy shot, so usually I'll take the easy shot.

My Nemesis; My nemesis isn't a faction, it's a terrain piece. That's right, I'm talking about hills/elevation. Now here's something you might not know; I got really frustrated with hills. One player would clip a hill with his base to gain the DEF bonus, as you would by clipping a forest/cloud. I re read the rules and apparently hills don't do anything in and of themselves. They might give you the elevation bonus if they are at least 1" high. (Am I reading this right?) At my LGS most hills aren't modeled that high, but people treat them all as being 1", including the ones with the gentle incline. So what should I do? Trying to attack Siege and his gun line while he's on a hill is a real suicide mission. Also, if my warjack is just barely touching a water featured and gets KD'd, does that equal an extinguished boiler? I'm pretty sure it does, but can't seem to believe it. I feel guilty if I don't place a water feature because I feel the rule is there for a reason, but that seems pretty punitive.

[ivy]

I want to say Retribution, but the thing is, all I've ever played is that gosh-darn Magehunter Strikeforce with either Ravyn or Kaelyssa.
As a faction, Menoth makes me full of the choir-hate, but that's nothing new.
Generally speaking, as a Legion player, the two "best" factions to play are Khador (so long as I get that alpha-strike) and Circle.

[Entil_Zar]

Every Retribution list with MH Assassins an especially turneylists with raveyn :mad:
When Playing Menoth I'm kinda uneasy with circle and their druids but its just minor.

Been ages since I played against Legion, Menoth or Mercs...mostly undeads around my venue *lol*

[scout's honor]

No, they aren't winning any more so than in any other case. Like I initially said, I don't like going up against Khador not because they are difficult, just that they seem to just get all their stuff for minimal effort on the player's part.
Tell it to Zerkova, who will most likely never see an arc node in her life. Or the Old Witch, who has zero ways of boosting infantry damage output. Or Irusk, who is considered one of our best casters despite his main benefit apparently being that he hinders his opponent.

To be honest, I am very interested in those things other factions have to do that require so much more effort. No offense, but from my POV Menoth and Cryx have it a lot easier. Cryx really does get everything on a silver platter and for the Protectorate all the effort goes into building the list: a well-built PoM list pretty much plays itself. And it's not like building a list is rocket science. ;)

[theflyingdutchman59]

Legion and Cryx...

same man. every time i just end up saying screw it time to do something stupid" blood for the blood god"

[rivenwyrm]

I feel guilty if I don't place a water feature because I feel the rule is there for a reason, but that seems pretty punitive.

Don't. You're a general, waging war. Does a general choose to fight in an area where he's at an inherent disadvantage? Not if he's smart, or has any say in the matter. Let your Hordes opponents put them on the board, if they want to, but there's no reason for you to do it yourself.