How is Retribution against gunlines?

[Silopolis]

My main opponent is Cygnar, and well, I rolled out my Cryx against a Haley list last night and got wiped the hell out. Literally, I was getting into range to even start affecting him when he feated and his army took out my entire list, down to a half-dead Slayer and Deneghra.

Meanwhile, I'm looking to put together a Retribution army, and I'm looking at Rahn. But after last night, I want to make sure that Ret can deal with a gunline if needed. I don't mean TRUMP a gunline, just deal with it enough to get up the board and actually start a real fight. ;)

I'm into Rahn because I like his fluff, the Magisters, and FOC 8. ;) But Kaelyssa seems ready made for this sort of thing, as do the mage hunters. I'm not really interested in those models as much for whatever reason, so I guess I want to know if the non-stealth aspects of Retribution can hang against gunlines, or if my Rahn list is just as screwed as my Deneghra list was. If so, I might rethink my decision. :)

[Ghyrrshyld]

Your Rahn list is pretty much just as screwed, yes. The only consolation is that the Batte Mages aren't going to get hit as often.

Rahn excels against melee lists. That said, Garryth ruins gunlines, so does Kaelyssa and so does Ravyn to some degree.

[Silopolis]

Ugh.

I thought Mk.II was supposed to cut out that sort of unassailable "you can't win" crap.

[Ghyrrshyld]

It's not that "you can't win". It's that you are choosing to not use the tools provided to win. Unlike with Cryx, Retribution actually has reasonable counters to a gunline. Cryx doesn't really. Not without having to lose whatever you sent in.

[mikethefish]

Well that being said, he didn't say he was building a Rahn TIER or anything. He doesn't have to max out his FA on Battle Mages. Just a unit and/or a couple of Magister solos would be fine. The Battle Mages themselves are Defense 15 against shooting, which isn't too bad really. All's it would take is a few more options to flesh things out.

Rahn isn't exactly the paper to Cygnar's scissors, so don't worry too much.

[Ghyrrshyld]

What he was asking is if his Rahn lists are just as screwed as his Denny list is.

Looking at his Denny list, I would say that a typical Rahn list has about the same anti gunline tools as a Denny list does (no venom, but it has 2 aoe explosions for 3 Foc).

[Silopolis]

Well that being said, he didn't say he was building a Rahn TIER or anything. He doesn't have to max out his FA on Battle Mages. Just a unit and/or a couple of Magister solos would be fine. The Battle Mages themselves are Defense 15 against shooting, which isn't too bad really. All's it would take is a few more options to flesh things out.

Rahn isn't exactly the paper to Cygnar's scissors, so don't worry too much.

Well, I was thinking Rahn tier, but only up to Tier 2. At 25, I'd use Rahn, two heavies, max Halberds + UA + Soulless, 2 Arcanists, and a Magister, if I recall.

I think what I was looking for was, if my main opponent is Cygnar, should I even bother with Rahn? But if there's any chance Rahn's less boned by Haley than Deneghra is, then I'm good.

[Ghyrrshyld]

I don't think that Rahn by himself is any more or less screwed vs gunlines as Denny is. I think that he can insure that his ranged units arent charged, and if they have stealth, that's pretty rough.

[Silopolis]

Halberdiers + UA have a Temporal Barrier-proof way to get up the field faster and stay in Shield Wall, if I recall, yeah? And the Riflemen can shoot through the Halberds, too.

Rahn can Telekinesis the jacks forward almost the additional distance they'd gain from charging, and at that point, the 1 Focus can just go into boosting damage, and it's almost the same as charging. Rahn can also slam his own jacks, right? Shove them through the TB that way?

Scramble's a problem, but not Disruption as much. Though the Arcanists will be the first to die to Chain Lightning. The Soulless should help against CL on the Halberds, though.

So I'm really hoping the Phoenix can survive long enough for me to arc Force Hammer (or whatever the slam spell is called) and smash something into Haley, hoping she doesn't use her spear to eat the spell.

God, she's annoying. She got through the Field Test like this? ;)

[Tamrielo]

God, she's annoying. She got through the Field Test like this? ;)

Haha, it's sort of funny you should say that. The nerfs to pHaley in Mk2 (and they are significant) were a big part of the reason I play just as much Retribution as I do Cygnar, if not more.

The thing with her is that she's extremely squishy. I hate to say it, but your answer really is the Mage Hunter units. The thing that causes gunlines fits (especially when run with Haley) is Stealth, which Mage Hunters and Mage Hunter Assassins have in spades.

As someone who plays both, were I fielding Haley I would be pretty concerned if I saw Garryth on the other side of the table.

[hausdorff space]

What sort of gunlines?

Rahn can deal with most things... he just may not deal with them the best.

Powerboost Phoenix and Manticore with Arcanists, Manticore pushes Phoenix forwards an inch, Phoenix runs 12 inches, Rahn pops feat and casts two Chain Blasts through Phoenix at enemy gunlines.

You have spare focus for telekinesis, the Phoenix can be arcing 15 inches from it original position... and you're arcing fully boosted POW 6s, that hurts all light infantry.


You might not be able to pull this off, but try strike first (RoS is generally pretty fast), strike hard, and then deal with the retaliation. If you can scatter your opponent even slightly before you engage, then your shenanigan abilities wil be gold.

[elvenlovemachine]

cignar front line of rangers stealth good bye chain blast

front line trenchers dig in cant be hit by blast damage good bye chain blast

you have popped your feat for nothing stealth is your best bet or some fast moving mods to tie up the fire power like griffons use sentinals drive arcanic to give 1focus to get that +2move, TK him vyros with mobility what ever is at your disposal to move that sucker in their face stop them from shooting especially hunters. hydras are good for this run them into infantry pepper only helps them get focus and then trample if infantry tries mobbing or freestriking you just take the damage and enjoy the free focus they will only do this once then they either let you run a muck or send other mods to deal with you.

but regardless it's an up hill battle enjoy.

[Pinegulf]

Well against gunlines I've had some success by just running into melee with them. Once you have engaged the line they can't (usually) CRA you and you tie atleast is two or more of them out of shooting business.

Griffin works very well at this. Pathfinder with 12" run, 2" extra with a focus and 2" reach. Plus anything you can make with casters you can think of.

[kc7sbp]

kaylissa's feat might be useful for getting into position against a gun line. Pop her feat and run everyone into position for a next turn attack. Assuming they can't get true sight or whatever on their whole gun line.

[hausdorff space]

Cygnar front line of rangers stealth good bye chain blastIf the Rangers are a threat you should be able to get an arcnode in range of stealth, and in either case the point of chain blast is in it's deviations.


front line trenchers dig in cant be hit by blast damage good bye chain blastTouche' one example to beat my one example. ;)

[Curved]

My two cents are that Invictors+UA+Kaelyssa are great for countering anything that depends on having a longer threat range. That includes fast melee units in addition to gun lines. The Invictors have 19" of threat plus a turn of stealth and immunity to charges. The 14 pow on their CRA-2s can dispatch almost anything, and you'll almost always get two turns before they take any hits.

[Lazlo]

front line trenchers dig in cant be hit by blast damage good bye chain blast


Just run your Assassin 14" across the line of Trenchers staying at least .5" away from them. Trenchers lose Dug In when engaged, and her 4" melee range during her activation is huge.

[Typhael]

The thing with her is that she's extremely squishy. I hate to say it, but your answer really is the Mage Hunter units. The thing that causes gunlines fits (especially when run with Haley) is Stealth, which Mage Hunters and Mage Hunter Assassins have in spades.


You're relying on your Cygnaran opponent *not* to take ATGM + UA? Weird. :)

[Bearded Dragon]

The gunline doesn't have more army points than you, so I'd say it's safe to assume that they don't have AGTM+UA, Trenchers, B13 AND Longgunners all in the same list.

The Mage Hunter Assassin is a great way to undig all the trenchers. I have run a reach solo past their lines many times to get them all standing. 4" reach and Speed 7 will help out tremendously.

[Gearjock]

You're relying on your Cygnaran opponent *not* to take ATGM + UA? Weird. :)

THIS

From how I play my Cygnar and my local Meta, this is almost given in any Cygnar gun-line list. The unit is just too good when you can take casters that allow them to essentially auto-hit but also provide a tool-box for you. You are going to have to AOE to death that unit ASAP or throw in some MHA to tie them up. If you don't then your Stealth units are getting to get shredded.

[Ghyrrshyld]

THIS

From how I play my Cygnar and my local Meta, this is almost given in any Cygnar gun-line list. The unit is just too good when you can take casters that allow them to essentially auto-hit but also provide a tool-box for you. You are going to have to AOE to death that unit ASAP or throw in some MHA to tie them up. If you don't then your Stealth units are getting to get shredded.
Funny story, MHA aren't going to tie anything up, since they don't have reach when it would matter.

Maybe.. MAYBE we can outrange them with the Destor and blow half the unit away with Quad Fire though.

[Gearjock]

MHA still have Reach, they just don't have the 4" melee range. Or am I wrong? (I'm in class so I can't look it up :) )

[Mod_Redphantasm]

MHA still have Reach, they just don't have the 4" melee range. Or am I wrong? (I'm in class so I can't look it up :) )

4" reach is only during their activation, melee range is 0.5" otherwise.

I'd rather use stormfalls to bust them up

[Tamrielo]

You're relying on your Cygnaran opponent *not* to take ATGM + UA? Weird. :)

Gun Mages are the exception. The question was about gunlines in general, not Gun Mages specifically.

Long Gunners, Trenchers, Nyss Hunters, Winter Guard, etc etc.

My favorite answer to Gunmages, incidentally, is Sentinels, which Garryth (the warcaster I originally suggested) *also* loves in his lists. With Sentinels + UA, the Gunmages are killing at most three Sentinels reliably (via Arcane Inferno and assuming you're spacing such that you're controlling for AoEs as much as possible) at which point the Sentinels are probably charging the Gun Mages due to Vengeance, even if the Gun Mages are Sniped. MAT 8 is hitting DEF 15 on average rolls, and even if it doesn't it's not like the gunmages are going to run away and take the freestrikes. Any Gun Mage you hit is instantly dead.

Alternately, still use Mage Hunters and run them into melee. CMA from Mage Hunters means that two of them are hitting a Gun Mage on average rolls, they're missing you half of the time on your approach, and you outnumber them, *and* your models are cheaper on an individual basis. True Sight is nasty, sure, but I wouldn't say it's a hard counter to a Mage Hunter Strike Force when the Gun Mages cost more per model than Mage Hunters and have a smaller unit size.

If you can put a forest between your MHSF and the Gun Mages, so much the better. They'll stand no chance.

[Ghyrrshyld]

4" reach is only during their activation, melee range is 0.5" otherwise.

I'd rather use stormfalls to bust them up
I wouldn't. Stormfails are terrible.

[hausdorff space]

You don't use the MHA to tie them up, you use it to remove dig in from all of them, and then not be engaging them... so you can shoot them at your leisure.


We really should specify the specific brand of Cygnar gunline we are wanting to deal with though.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

I wouldn't. Stormfails are terrible.

Cute name, I see what you did thar.

And I disagree. They're accurate, long range and flexible. They are too few to spam, but to great behind a round of Houseguard. The key I found during Resurgence is to be smart, pick your shots, and pick your target.

[Lazlo]

They're accurate, long range and flexible. They are too few to spam, but to great behind a round of Houseguard. The key I found during Resurgence is to be smart, pick your shots, and pick your target.

Long range? Yes.
Flexible? Somewhat, but not like battle mages, druids, or gun mages.
Accurate? I do not think this word means what you think it means.