eNemo's Theme Force

[admanb]

Doesn't read like someone ****ing with us. (http://lightningstrykes-redfinnegas.blogspot.com/2010/01/nemo-theme-force-weathermen.html)



eNemo and the Weathermen: Cygnar non-character warjacks, Thunderhead; field mechaniks and storm knight units; Journeyman Warcaster, Squire, Storm Knight solos, Stormsmith solos.

Tier One: army includes only the models listed above. Benefit: the FA of the Stormsmiths +1 for each heavy warjack. Stormsmith solos gain advance deployment.

Tier Two: army includes two or more Firefly warjacks. Benefit: Firefly gains Advance Move.

Tier Three: army must include two or more stormguard units. Benefit: Stormsmith Stormtower is added free of cost and ignores FA restrictions.

Tier Four: Nemo's battle group includes two or more heavy warjacks. Benefit: friendly models/units can begin the game affected by Nemo's upkeep spells.

[AJ the Ronin]

Source?

:)

[admanb]

The first sentence is a link.

[Mutton]

...I run that list. No ****ing joke, that's pretty much the core of what I run with him. Well, the first tier at least; I don't feel any need for Thorn or Rowdy with him plenty of the time, and I can drop my ATGM for MORE STORMSMITH I guess. I guess I can work around the other tier benefits; the last tier is a huge benefit for eNemo.

[Dareith]

If the link is accurate, the Firefly costs 5 points. Sounds cool.

[veragor1206]

Whats so terrible about any of those tiers?

[Angelus]

Two units of Stormguard?

Only issue with it.

[Dareith]

Who said any of them were terrible? That tier 4 bonus is freaking amazing for eNemo, and all of the others look decent unless the Firefly turns out to be a piece of garbage.

[LemmingStampede]

Yeah, the only headache for me is the 2 units of stormguard

[lawyerpants]

What is advanced move?

And Also....

This sucks, I am a player on a budget and buying TWO units of Stormguard to field my favoriate caster (in tier list) is BS, IMO. I never liked Stormguard in the first place! I got a box of Stormblades instead of Sotrmguard....QQ.....QQ....etc.....

[admanb]

Two units of Stormguard?

Only issue with it.

Well, if the Stormtower is good those are basically two units you're buying at 1.5 points cheaper (tower is 3, right?). Plus, there's probably a 'guard UA/WA on the way. Maybe that'll help.


What is advanced move?

Free advance before the game starts.

[Thunder_God]

"Stormsmith Stormtower"?

[Angelus]

Well, if the Stormtower is good those are basically two units you're buying at 1.5 points cheaper (tower is 3, right?). Plus, there's probably a 'guard UA/WA on the way. Maybe that'll help.



Free advance before the game starts.

Tower is 2 according to NQ.

[LemmingStampede]

New Cygnar artillery piece, was previewed in the last NQ.

[bouncymischa]

My current Nemo2 "electromagnetic" list is typically built around Centurions, the Thunderhead, Stormguard, Storm Lances, a Journeyman, and Stormsmiths... so I think it'd already fall into these tiers. :P

Although it looks like I'd have to get a couple of Fireflys... still, could be fun. :3

EDIT: I'll be curious to see if Tier 3 is specifically Stormguard or just Storm Knight units. If it is, I'll have to get another unit of SGs just to go for that Tier 4 requirement... XD

[whats82]

So he could easily have 5 stormsmiths by just having 2 heavies.. *drool*

[AJ the Ronin]

That guy have this quote on the preview post:


Other surprises are the Firefly light warjack, which serves as a Stormsmith in attempting either a Surge or Triangulation Stormcall. Suh-weeet! And the Trencher Master Gunner (which PP released a picture of on their website today). Looks like the Master Gunner is going to make trencher artillery more useful on the table. The couple of times I played with my trencher cannon I really liked it, so this might be an interesting piece to add.Awesome!


Edit:
This is pretty sweet too:


I'm not really prepared to do a full blown report on the book, but it is a beauty! The Theme lists! The new stuff! I just wanted to gush at the counter as I flipped through its pages. I was under the impression that only some of the warcasters would have theme lists, but by golly, every single one of 'em has a Theme list, including Kara Sloan, whose theme army is called the Gunslingers. One in particular I like is Siege's "Big Guns" which essentially is a Trencher theme list.

[moz]

So what you're saying is that i need to buy 6 more stormsmiths to play eNemo at 50 points. Ok, I will.

[admanb]

So what you're saying is that i need to buy 6 more stormsmiths to play eNemo at 50 points. Ok, I will.

Tier lists are going to be expensive.

And we're going to like it.

[thebill]

This is exciting! Tier lists are neat and I actually rather like these benefits for a list in general, if I have to take ENemo to make it work well hell, I'm totally down.

That said, I have a hardcopy of the book reserved at my LGS, LGS, but I'm going to be out of town for the next two weeks.

...
And I am debating just buying a second copy so I can devour it on the road. Someone spoil more please. :D

[knight_actual]

+ stormsmith allowance!?
tier1!

omg hax awesomsauce

[bouncymischa]

Not to mention AD for those Stormsmiths. It's going to get even easier to get them into position for an early Triangulation...

[knight_actual]

Advance move firefly?
oh noes~ no strangeways in this list!? but he's even got immune:electric!

anyways - conservatively in your 35 pts, you'll have 2 firefly and 2 heavies of some stripe. That's 5 triangulation source and 7 triangulation anchors! Up to 15 storm calls per turn.... at 83% success and avg 19 damage!

This is going to revolutionize the value of stormcall. Let's hope the surge/triangulation "fix" to include require LOS prove to be false.

2 fireflies up each flank w/in 20 inches of each other..... Z Z Z Z ZAP!

[Jiub]

No Arlan or Rowdy hurts, but besides those two I don't think I've ever made an eNemo list that didn't meet tier 4, sans the Fireflies.

[knight_actual]

The biggest "blocker" of this tier is the 2 units of stormguards. I have a very big thing about doubling up on units. They're just so much investment in time and effort to put together and paint that while I have doubles of most jacks and some solos, I have 0 doubles of any units.

[AJ the Ronin]

Looking forward to Caine tier list and (oddly enough) Stryker's.

[LemmingStampede]

That is what is going to stall out most people I think. Although in this tier I could easily see not bringing T-head along, which clears up points for the Stormguard. The Stormguard and tons of stormsmiths and fireflies (assuming they are anti-infantry) can take care of that part for you. At the least you can run 2 minimum units, which if you already own a full unit just means ordering another leader and one grunt.

[Siegebrisbane]

The biggest "blocker" of this tier is the 2 units of stormguards. I have a very big thing about doubling up on units. They're just so much investment in time and effort to put together and paint that while I have doubles of most jacks and some solos, I have 0 doubles of any units.

buy unit box
buy 1 blister

two min units of stormguard

[Dino-Czar]

buy unit box
buy 1 blister

two min units of stormguard

I'm sorry, what?

[AJ the Ronin]

Yup, Stormguard unit box includes only 6 models.

[Siegebrisbane]

I'm sorry, what?
oh right, they don't come in 10s...


ok buy two unit boxes

two min units!

[admanb]

If we get a solo/UA/WA that supports Stormguard I can see myself buying another unit box. I do love the models, and they look great in a big mass. Plus, I'd only have to paint two more to get two min units.

The problem is they're ****.

[knight_actual]

Oh were the investment only the purchase of the models~

[Amarel]

I am mostly excited about seeing Haley's list. And Stryker a little bit. But I don't want to be tempted by more Nemo, I don't want Storm Guard...

[tensteam]

Right now I fear that not many of the tier lists will be very viable just because mercenaries are probably not allowed. Epic Nemo is one of the few exceptions that can go without mercs.

Or could some tier list let you use mercenaries?

[knight_actual]

eStryker's going to feel the loss of rhupert most strongly

[Amarel]

eStryker's going to feel the loss of rhupert most strongly
He is indeed.

I'm hoping that Storm Blades aren't part of his theme list - just so as I can see how confused the big lug looks.

[AJ the Ronin]

He is indeed.

I'm hoping that Storm Blades aren't part of his theme list - just so as I can see how confused the big lug looks.
You are being sarcastic right?

[captainspud]

Sigh, as an ardent "I hate units" campaigner, I have a feeling I'm going to be locked out of EVERY tier list. The only units I have are the B13, a unit of ATGMs, minimum Field Mechaniks, and a Chain Gun.

Le sigh. Here's hoping PP doesn't force units down our throats in every theme list. ;_;

[Amarel]

You are being sarcastic right?
Yes. Very.

[AJ the Ronin]

Sigh, as an ardent "I hate units" campaigner, I have a feeling I'm going to be locked out of EVERY tier list. The only units I have are the B13, a unit of ATGMs, minimum Field Mechaniks, and a Chain Gun.

Le sigh. Here's hoping PP doesn't force units down our throats in every theme list. ;_;

I wouldn't be surprised if Darius and Kraye Themes are 'jack friendly.

Also, Theme list are not mandatory :)

[captainspud]

I wouldn't be surprised if Darius and Kraye Themes are 'jack friendly.
Kraye's will almost assuredly require Rangers, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Darius' require two units of mechaniks.


Also, Theme list are not mandatory :)No, but they're fun, and it sucks being told I can't participate in something fun.

[fildrigar]

I don't think we've seen a Theme list yet that allows mercenaries, other than the Magnus ones, of course.

[Professor Lust]

I don't think we've seen a Theme list yet that allows mercenaries, other than the Magnus ones, of course.


hate to break it to you but you won't. Ever.

Merc Theme lists are called Contracts.

[Mutton]

Kraye's will almost assuredly require Rangers, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Darius' require two units of mechaniks.

No, but they're fun, and it sucks being told I can't participate in something fun.

Hahaha, I see it now
"So wait, I have to take two units of mechs? You want to make my feat EVEN MORE WORTHLESS! Wait, what's the benefit? They get plasma guns? AWESOME!"

[AJ the Ronin]

Kraye's will almost assuredly require Rangers, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Darius' require two units of mechaniks.Yup, Rangers as mandatory for Kraye is not out of the question. Mechaniks for Darius...well I don't doubt they will be available but not mandatory (we will know soon enough though).



No, but they're fun, and it sucks being told I can't participate in something fun.
But if they are unit-centric and you don't like unit then they aren't that fun, right?

[FearLord]

No, but they're fun, and it sucks being told I can't participate in something fun.

No one (apart from you) is saying you can't take part - you just have to take some units...

Seriously, 12pts of Stormguards might not be first on most players list, but it isn't that big a deal... Besides, if you just go tier 1 or 2, you still get the benefits of those tiers and don't have to take a single unit...

[captainspud]

But if they are unit-centric and you don't like unit then they aren't that fun, right?
Tier 1 and the bonuses are fun, as they grant the individual flavor to different tiers. It's the T2+ requirements that are going to suck if they're too restrictive. Playing to a restrictive theme can be a lot of fun, but only if the restrictions are reasonable and flavorful. If Darius' list says, say, "must include Sword Knights", then that won't be a flavorful tier to my eyes, which will suck a lot of the fun out of it for me.

Basically, I just hope PPS thought to plan for people who got into the game for Giant Robots exclusively, considering that's what the game is usually billed as to new players.

[Thunder_God]

hate to break it to you but you won't. Ever.

Merc Theme lists are called Contracts.
Except I don't see any reason to believe Gorten, Ashlynn and friends won't also have theme lists. Magnus was given to us because he no longer has a contract.


Kraye's will almost assuredly require No, but they're fun, and it sucks being told I can't participate in something fun.

You mean, you chose not to participate in something fun? Also, this is true for everyone, who doesn't want X Manglers, Y Trencher units, Z solos. This is life. And for all tiered lists. And as much as they stop you, it's you making a choice.
The buck stops with you.

[captainspud]

If every single one of our tiers said "must contain 6 Sentinels", would that be us, the players, choosing not to participate? At some point, there has to be a share of the responsibility on PPS' shoulders to mould things around what people will want to play. If EVERY tier list requires units, that's bad design. Some casters should require heavy unit investment-- Siege, eStryker, Caine-- but by the same token, others shouldn't have the requirement at all: Darius, or Karchev. PPS has an obligation to cater to multiple playstyles. I'm not asking that I be able to do ALL tier lists with my collection; but not being able to do ANY is kind of crappy. :(

[Mutton]

You're complaining that a 'caster who is all about LIGHTNING has a LIGHTNING unit in his tiers? It's insanely fluffy, and if eNemo loves having a unit or two in his army. My money says you'll probably have Darius as your unitless man, maaaaaaaaaaaybe pNemo. Really now, these are fluffy, fun lists; I might as well be complaining that I don't like using Heavy Warjacks (I love using them, but IT'S A DAMN EXAMPLE), and this theme unjustly discriminates against me!

[GunMageinTraining]

I do hope it's 'Storm-Noun' as opposed to Stormguard specific.

Remember, Not only are you getting extra elite cadre Stormsmiths, but at least two Firefly Stormsmith arc too.

Can you say Triangulation CITY!?!?

[captainspud]

You're complaining that a 'caster who is all about LIGHTNING has a LIGHTNING unit in his tiers? It's insanely fluffy, and if eNemo loves having a unit or two in his army. My money says you'll probably have Darius as your unitless man, maaaaaaaaaaaybe pNemo. Really now, these are fluffy, fun lists; I might as well be complaining that I don't like using Heavy Warjacks (I love using them, but IT'S A DAMN EXAMPLE), and this theme unjustly discriminates against me!
What? Where did I complain about eNemo? I'm not complaining about any particular list-- I'm just saying that one or two of the tiers should be possible without units. I don't even care which, I like all our casters.

Chill pill, dude.

[bouncymischa]

You can get up to Tier 2 without taking a unit...

[Ruan]

I for one am very amused by this list... Going to be pretty nasty. That's a frick-ton of triangulation attacks that'll disrupt jacks and fry light infantry. The primary problem with stormsmiths was their squishyness, thus why I personally always had trouble getting a triangulation off. Now, having the triangulation on a light jack means it'll actually survive having a pebble flung at it.

[TsavongLah]

:eek:

Five Stormsmiths and two Fireflies is going to rape face! The lightning storm will never end. Plus, free Stormtower?!

[Killionaire]

Cool list and all, but it's not exactly competitive. Both Nemos are built around running a few heavies, and having ranged infantry (usually gun mages) back them up to take out infantry that Jacks don't do so well against. Even the Thunderhead isn't so hot against dispersed troops, which is what Gun Mages excel at.

This one seems fun, but I'm going to have to leave it on the shelf. Even with the awesomeness of increased Stormsmith availability.

[Dareith]

Gun Mages+UA aren't the only way to clear infantry. The Fireflies are going to make getting Triangulation off a lot easier, which combined with eNemo's Elite Cadre will go a long way towards killing off enemy infantry. It seems very premature to completely write it off, especially since we don't even know all of the Firefly's abilities are.

[FearLord]

If every single one of our tiers said "must contain 6 Sentinels", would that be us, the players, choosing not to participate? At some point, there has to be a share of the responsibility on PPS' shoulders to mould things around what people will want to play. If EVERY tier list requires units, that's bad design. Some casters should require heavy unit investment-- Siege, eStryker, Caine-- but by the same token, others shouldn't have the requirement at all: Darius, or Karchev. PPS has an obligation to cater to multiple playstyles. I'm not asking that I be able to do ALL tier lists with my collection; but not being able to do ANY is kind of crappy. :(

Actually, theme lists have an obligation to be themed - I don't think anyone is arguing on the Retribution Forums that tier lists are the best armies that can be made, but they are thematic and allow people to play something a little out of the norm...

They also exemplify what PP seem to want from Mk2 - not all infantry, not all jack, but balanced armies that contain a mix of both... As such, I think based on eNemo's (the only one we've seen properly so far) this is quite reasonable - it's limited since you need to take certain stuff, but it plays to eNemo's theme (Jacks, Stormsmiths, storm knights, etc)...

[lastspartacus]

Man, now I understand why the Siren got Power Booster.
With a friggin army of stormsmiths coming at me my bonejacks dont stand a chance!

Hell at pow12 ability9 they could wreck a couple nodes themselves.

[Dominik]

Man, now I understand why the Siren got Power Booster.
With a friggin army of stormsmiths coming at me my bonejacks dont stand a chance!

Hell at pow12 ability9 they could wreck a couple nodes themselves.

Man, I love how you complained about a faction not your own, tried to convince others that a ridiculously good model was not a huge boost but just needed and put the cry into cryx in just a few short lines.
That's what I call artistry.

[tensteam]

I don't know anything but I just got the idea that pNemo tier has to make Journeymen FA:2. He needs more non-mercenary spellcasters and teaching more than one Jr at a time makes perfectly sense.

The more I think about it the more it hurts that there are no mercs probably available in tier lists. It will be very hard for me to consider Storm Lances without a source of Pathfinder and making Caine lists without mercs... the buffs have to be HUGE.

[Faerun]

If EVERY tier list requires units, that's bad design.

Nope, balanced list normally have a good mix between jacks and units, otherwise you will die against anti-jack lists. Units are part of the game, just as the warjacks are part of the game.

Sure you can play with only warjacks if you want, but it's your own choice, and I don't see any reason why PP should shape their game too these wishes.

Of course you're already being a bit negative about it, with only having seen 1 tier list out of 6 or so, and I can definately imagine Kraye or Darius having only jack requirements (especially Darius), but let's see until the book comes out!

Not to sound mean, but I think Warjacks are still the big focus of the game, it's just that they're not the only focus, and if that was the case, it would become very boring very quickly IMHO (I like jacks though, but I can see it getting very stale if you can only play with jacks and warcasters)

Just my 2 cents

[Amarel]

I don't know anything but I just got the idea that pNemo tier has to make Journeymen FA:2. He needs more non-mercenary spellcasters and teaching more than one Jr at a time makes perfectly sense.

I thought normal and epic 'Casters shared the same list?

[Thunder_God]

Nope.

Didn't download the Merc file, I take it? Magnus Jack-focus is Renegade, eMagnus is Manglers. Steelheads versus Idrians, as well.

Edit: Now I see, you mean if they can choose from the same list of models? Dunno.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Nope, they get their own.

Also, as much as I love jacks this game has never been exclusively about jacks. Now they are a focus, where they were useless in mkI but infantry are still important.

[Dino-Czar]

I'm kind of in love with this (theoretical) eNemo tier system. Yeah, it means I might have to buy some more crap, but there isn't any aspect of these that I'm finding frustrating or incomprehensible.

I wonder where Strangeways is going to end up though, if not in eNemo's tiers. Perhaps left out entirely?

[FearLord]

I'm kind of in love with this (theoretical) eNemo tier system. Yeah, it means I might have to buy some more crap, but there isn't any aspect of these that I'm finding frustrating or incomprehensible.

I wonder where Strangeways is going to end up though, if not in eNemo's tiers. Perhaps left out entirely?

Strangeways fluff in Legends spoke about how he doesn't get on with Nemo or Thunderhead - it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't be in the same list as Nemo...

[Dino-Czar]

Sure, but where else would you stick a lightning immune mechanic? Personal feelings aside, you'd think someone would pull him aside and point out where he'd be most useful.

[leo_neil316]

Advance move firefly?
oh noes~ no strangeways in this list!? but he's even got immune:electric!


Really not surprised by that. Nemo and Arlan do -not- get along in the fluff. And he'd be most useful in Estryker's list honestly. Lots of lightning and heavy jacks but no goram useless thunderhead!

[moz]

I think Cygnar might come out the best in these theme lists because a lot of our character stuff doesn't strike me as auto-include (ok the Black 13th, but after that...) So eNemo's list can't bring Ol'Rowdy, big deal - or Haley can't bring Thunderhead - meh. But consider the Cryx casters tiers that won't get to take Deathjack or bile thralls, or the menoth tiers that don't allow the Avatar or choir - yikes! A Khador list without mortars, beast-09, and great bears? Could a tier benefit really overcome these power-models?

[GunMageinTraining]

Oh noz, Cryx casters that don't take the Deathjack...

Guess most just won't run tiered lists, which is always an option.

From what I hear about some of the lists, I'm not sure I'm going to run them much myself... Namely the Trenchers + eHaley list... I don't have a 'problem' with trenchers, but I definitely wouldn't run them with eHaley.

[knight_actual]

...Could a tier benefit really overcome these power-models?

Most Ret players don't run tiers for this reason. Usually tier benefits are slight, and the cost of not having particular models are very high. Of course when Magnus is considered, this theory disintegrates like a cryo freezed water melon hitting a concrete wall at super sonic speed.

[Professor Lust]

Sure, but where else would you stick a lightning immune mechanic? Personal feelings aside, you'd think someone would pull him aside and point out where he'd be most useful.

Nemo1 is my guess.

Nemo1 needs magic users to power his staff and in faction we only have 2.


Hands down Strangewayes is in Nemo1s tier or I will never ever run it.

[Professor Lust]

Oh noz, Cryx casters that don't take the Deathjack...

Guess most just won't run tiered lists, which is always an option.

From what I hear about some of the lists, I'm not sure I'm going to run them much myself... Namely the Trenchers + eHaley list... I don't have a 'problem' with trenchers, but I definitely wouldn't run them with eHaley.


Maybe Trenchers in Mk2 Ehaley's Tier list is revenge for endgame (or was it gearbox?) getting a ton success at Gencon 2009 running a really nasty MK1Ehaley Blitz list.

List was something like Trenchers w/UA and Porter plus Piper = Turn 1 shooting into your opponents DZ by 5".

DZ 10" +AD (12") + Piper's Extra 2" + TA (3") +Cautious advance for 6" + 10" Rifle Range = shooting 5" into your opponent's DZ twice.

Yeah MK1 EHaley was nasty.

[captainspud]

Nemo1 is my guess.

Nemo1 needs magic users to power his staff and in faction we only have 2.

Hands down Strangewayes is in Nemo1s tier or I will never ever run it.
Theme lists are built according to fluff, not according to mechanical needs. Strangewayes and Nemo don't get along in the fluff (SW thinks electric tech is dumb, and has said this flat-out to Nemo), so they won't share a tier.

Darius, on the other hand, gets along great with Strangewayes in the fluff, so he'll definitely be in Big D's tiers.

[Dino-Czar]

I'd forgotten Darius, never been a fan. You're right, Arlan is probably in with him (for all the good it does either of them).


I wonder how much pNemo's accumulator is going to suffer in his tier list. There just aren't enough in faction spell casters to guarantee the bonus focus. Ah well, I've got enough stuff to buy as it is for eNemo, I don't need to be collecting more tier nonsense.


(please please please let trencher commandos and Chain Guns be in pStyker's lists. It would make buying stuff I want that much less painful.)

[captainspud]

I'd forgotten Darius, never been a fan. You're right, Arlan is probably in with him (for all the good it does either of them).
Actually, Darius DOES need mechaniks now (either the squad or Arlan). He needs to keep his jacks in decent shape so they'll survive long enough to be feated, and the extra 5-10 damage you repair can be the difference. He also gets a lot of benefit from Power Booster and the no-free-strikes part of Evasive.


I wonder how much pNemo's accumulator is going to suffer in his tier list. There just aren't enough in faction spell casters to guarantee the bonus focus. Ah well, I've got enough stuff to buy as it is for eNemo, I don't need to be collecting more tier nonsense.
I'd heard a suggestion that pNemo's tiers may include an increased FA (or just a freebie) on the Journeyman, which could even that out a bit. It's just speculation, but it seems reasonable to me.

[Dino-Czar]

Actually, Darius DOES need mechaniks now (either the squad or Arlan). He needs to keep his jacks in decent shape so they'll survive long enough to be feated, and the extra 5-10 damage you repair can be the difference. He also gets a lot of benefit from Power Booster and the no-free-strikes part of Evasive.

Well yeah. Arlan is great with anyone. I just don't know that Darius gets the most from him (or vis vera).


I'd heard a suggestion that pNemo's tiers may include an increased FA (or just a freebie) on the Journeyman, which could even that out a bit. It's just speculation, but it seems reasonable to me.

I read that too, but I'm not holding my breath. For one I think the guy how posted it was just speculating, and two spending 6 points on two journeymen seems like a rough fix.


(Still praying hard for Commandos and Chain Guns in with pStyker, but pCaine would be good too. Not great, but good enough to ease my fiscal conscience)