Dirty tactic with Storm Gunner. Prove me wrong?

[LemmingStampede]

So according to spoilers, the Storm Gunner WA has the rule that when he hits a target, that all other ranged attacks from his Storm Blade unit auto-hit that model. If I am correct, auto hit trumps auto miss.

So here's the potential tactic. Storm Gunner advances, shoots target warjack, hits. Does his damage, whatever that is. All other Storm Blades in that unit then auto hit the warjack regardless of their range! Could be 20" away, as long as they can see the target.

Can anyone prove me wrong?

[TsavongLah]

Pretty sure you still have to be within range for the auto-hit rule to work.

[Sevwall]

This thread is awesome. Rules exploits based on unknown rules....

[phreaker187]

That makes sense in a "crazy guy fishing for loopholes" kinda way.

When we have the exact wording we will know more, I'm sure there will be range and LOS requirements.

When you put it like that it sounds a little far fetched.

[Chuck B]

Before anyone gloats all Sevwall-style, WAIT UNTIL YOU READ THE RULES AS WRITTEN.

Seriously dude ;)

[Dino-Czar]

Can anyone else spike the Kara Sloan joke here? I can't think of one.

[LemmingStampede]

I have no expectation of it working honestly. I have to be wrong somewhere, which is why I posted it and asked to be proven wrong. Since I don't have Prime Mk2 or the Cygnar book handy, I can't answer that myself.

It would be hilarious if it worked though.

[conador2]

In Imperial Khador, lightning auto-hits you!

[Corevak]

auto-hits will trump things like stealth, and you will not have to roll to hit with other attacks. But you will still need range to the target. That's how I think it will work.

[AJ the Ronin]

Special rules that say that you will auto-hit will override special rules that says you will auto-miss.

Yet auto-missing because you are out of range is not a special rule.

(I don't have the books with me, so I can't check if you check the distance first then you roll and that may make a diference too)

[Agamemnon]

"For instance, an effect that allows attacks to hit automatically would override special rules such as Stelth that would otherwise cause a attack to miss automatically." Prime MKII page 61

Measuring range is not a special rule but a limit on how far a gun can fire. Only AOE's can still do damage after a declared shot is measured out of range. Page 56.

[Robert Shepherd]

I don't have a copy of the Prime Mk2 book yet, but the rules prerelease states:

"If one rule causes an attack to hit automatically and one causes it to miss automatically, the automatic hit takes precedence over the automatic miss."

Note that there's no reference to 'special' rules, even though it is mentioned earlier on in the section. Does this sentence exist in the final book?

[masleth]

"For instance, an effect that allows attacks to hit automatically would override special rules such as Stelth that would otherwise cause a attack to miss automatically." Prime MKII page 61

Measuring range is not a special rule but a limit on how far a gun can fire. Only AOE's can still do damage after a declared shot is measured out of range. Page 56.

Hey, hey, hey! Don't let them hear that. I keep telling them that all our rules are special. We wouldn't want some rules to feel unspecial. Then they'd never get to be president.

Anyway... I just did a little rules delving and I don't like the result. We have got to see the final rules on that gunner, because as it stands, the Lemming may be correct. Out of range auto-misses, but auto-hit overrides that. The "special rule" bit is just an example of how this might work on stealth, not the rule itself.

Quote: If one rule causes an attack to hit automatically and one causes it to miss automatically, the automatic hit takes precedence over the automatic miss.

Yes, there is a period there. It just goes on to clarify how that might interact with stealth.

[AJ the Ronin]

"For instance, an effect that allows attacks to hit automatically would override special rules such as Stelth that would otherwise cause a attack to miss automatically." Prime MKII page 61

Measuring range is not a special rule but a limit on how far a gun can fire. Only AOE's can still do damage after a declared shot is measured out of range. Page 56.

That is what I was referring. The Paragraph make note about special rules (i.e. rules on the cards) and you may infer that missing because you are out of range is not an special rule is a "basic" rule (for lack of a better term).

Also, and my Prime is at the in-laws so I can't check, if you measure first and then you roll and you miss by not being out of range you don't even get to try to roll at all (you don't get to that step).

Anyways, this deserve a thread on the rules forum.

[Tamwulf]

Can anyone else spike the Kara Sloan joke here? I can't think of one.

So here is my Ultimate Tactic with Kara Sloan. If we go by the rumors and the speculation, we can simply place Kara Sloan on the table. When she pops her feat, everything within Spitefire's range of 14" is removed from play.

Prove me wrong. :p

[Dino-Czar]

So here is my Ultimate Tactic with Kara Sloan. If we go by the rumors and the speculation, we can simply place Kara Sloan on the table. When she pops her feat, everything within Spitefire's range of 14" is removed from play.

Prove me wrong. :p

My faith in mankind is restored.

HI5!

[masleth]

You had faith in mankind? Why?

[GunMageinTraining]

Indeed, Inquiring minds want to know...

[Typhael]

I have no expectation of it working honestly. I have to be wrong somewhere, which is why I posted it and asked to be proven wrong. Since I don't have Prime Mk2 or the Cygnar book handy, I can't answer that myself.

It would be hilarious if it worked though.

Yes...hilarious...it would also be hilarious to watch the number of your possible opponents plummet. ;)

[mikemanvick]

You had faith in mankind? Why?



Boobs. Really thats my faith in humankind. Why because i likes them.

[masleth]

I guess we'll just have to wait for the rules... SINCE NOONE IS SPOILING THEM! Grrr....

[draxius]

So if I hit an Enlivened 'Jack with something that has Sustained Attack, and it moves out of melee range, I still hit it? /sarcasm

Check your "Attack Main Sequence" list in Appendix A of Prime. Step 4 is check range - if you're out of range, you auto-miss and jump to step 7. Step 5 is the "resolve automatic hit/miss" step, which is skipped entirely if you do not have range.

In short - anything with an automatic hit effect still must have range, as per the core rules. Unless the WA has a special rule allowing them to ignore range (unlikely), the OP theory of 20 silliness is not possible.

[masleth]

That's exactly what we needed. Good job. Its a long way around to keep this from occurring. But its all there. Thank you sir.

[LemmingStampede]

There it is. I knew there had to be a problem that would stop this. At the very least PP would have done an "I said so" ruling like they originally did for Severius and Mk1 death sentence.

Yeah, the entire idea is just retarded. Better to get it shot down now then later once its pissed people off.

[brotherscott]

However, rules in a vacuum work about as well as TheoryMachine, so lets give it a go.

In order to target a model, that model has to be in Line of Sight of the attacker (really pretty easy with the way LoS works these days).
Next you determine if the target is in range (which is the maximum range of the weapon).

While auto-hit trumps auto-miss, if this is deemed the way it is with regards to attack range, I will auto hit a knocked down model with Ashlynn's melee attack from 12" away.

[GunMageinTraining]

The problem with that statement Brotherscott is that melee range is pretty concrete, you can only make a melee attack against something within your melee range. You can legally make attacks at models outside your gun's range without an issue.

It's a very odd situation, I do obviously side on the -Doesn't work-, but I could see it working both ways.

[Professor Lust]

The problem with that statement Brotherscott is that melee range is pretty concrete, you can only make a melee attack against something within your melee range. You can legally make attacks at models outside your gun's range without an issue.

It's a very odd situation, I do obviously side on the -Doesn't work-, but I could see it working both ways.


Actually yes and no You cannot legally complete attacks at models outside weapons range. At least not in Mk2.

Can you target them? Sure as long as you can you Draw LOS to them but no you cannot actually roll to hit against them.

Now the question is what does it mean to actually "automatically hit" We have a paraphrase of the ability but we don't have anything else to go by.

[draxius]

For me, the best way to think of the ranged attack order of operations is this:

1) Determine if potential target in line of sight.
2) Declare target.
3) Measure range to target. If out of range, the attack fails.
4) Apply effects that automatically miss/automatically hit (auto-hit trumps auto-miss).
etc, etc....

That is clearly the intent of the rules. If you read the section on automatic hits/automatic misses, you'll note that every reference to the word "rule" has the word "special" in front of it but the one quote above. The intent of the section is meant to compare the benefits of various effects - being out of range is not an effect. The Appendix, which is designed to clarify said rules, explicitly excludes range from all other effects, as I indicated in my earlier post.

There's no need to theorymachine this. The core rules are clear on what "automatically hit" applies to. If (and this is a big if), and only if, the rule states "further Storm Blade ranged attacks automatically hit regardless of range", then they do. Otherwise, they do not, because the definition of "automatically hit" is explicit in the core rules of the game.

[Professor Lust]

For me, the best way to think of the ranged attack order of operations is this:

1) Determine if potential target in line of sight.
2) Declare target.
3) Measure range to target. If out of range, the attack fails.


actually the wording on out of range is


If the target is beyond range, the attack automatically
misses.

missing and failing are two separate things.

[galonso]

Pg 245 Prime MK II Appendix A: Timing

Attack Main Sequence

4. If the attack is a ranged or magic attack, check the range to the target. If the target is out of range, the attack automatically misses; do not make any attack rolls, and go to step 7.

7. Resolve effects that cause the attack to hit a model other than the target automatically.

Automatically miss trumps automatically hit. (see Rule Priority pg 29)

[ar2]

What I can't believe is that this thread has merited 31 posts, including mine. :o

[draxius]

Pg 245 Prime MK II Appendix A: Timing

Attack Main Sequence

4. If the attack is a ranged or magic attack, check the range to the target. If the target is out of range, the attack automatically misses; do not make any attack rolls, and go to step 7.

7. Resolve effects that cause the attack to hit a model other than the target automatically.

Yes - I avoided quoting the rulebook directly as it's a print document that PP makes its money off of... Step 5 in the above sequence is the one where you resolve all automatic hit/miss effects.


Automatically miss trumps automatically hit. (see Rule Priority pg 29)

Incorrect. This is not a case of "cannot" versus "can/must", but what is automatic (i.e. does not require a roll). Pg. 61 explicitly deals with the interaction of effects that cause attacks to automatically hit and automatically miss, and the specificity of those rules trump the generality of the Rule Priority section.

[galonso]

Incorrect. This is not a case of "cannot" versus "can/must", but what is automatic (i.e. does not require a roll).

You're right about the above. Regardless, this trick doesn't work.

[Bladestorm]

It depends if the Appendix is ruled to over-ride the core rules, or is given merely as an aid to understanding (as the bits in the back of remix where ruled to be, for instance) though I think the intent in general is pretty clear and they will rule it doesn't work regardless of how they get there.

[Khador247]

So here's the potential tactic. Storm Gunner advances, shoots target warjack, hits. Does his damage, whatever that is. All other Storm Blades in that unit then auto hit the warjack regardless of their range! Could be 20" away, as long as they can see the target.

Can anyone prove me wrong?

You're joking right?

[Typhael]

You're joking right?

I even suggested that by trying to employ this tactic, the OP would suddenly suffer a lack of opponents. Fortunately, a number of staunch Swans came by and said that it was utter garbage.

[Icepick28]

I'm surprised that people think this seriously works. Just to let you all know, it DOESN'T work. You still need to have range to the target, or the attack fails. Such as being out of melee range after trying to make a charge on a target and coming up short.

[LemmingStampede]

I wasn't joking at all. It dawned on me that this was a potential loophole. Since the final rules aren't out, I can't assume I will get a perfect answer in the rules forum. So I asked it here. I wanted people to prove me wrong, and get this taken care of before it comes up later when it counts.

If you read my posts, I have said I never thought this would stand as being possible, and that it was nuts. But I didn't have my books available to look through, and once I did I didn't think of checking the Appendix for the breakdown of the attack sequence. Thankfully, draxius and galonso did, and found where the rulebook actually does cover this, and shoots it down. Thank god. Even if it gets argued to death, I have faith that PP will just say "It doesn't work because we said so" which is perfectly ok with me.

[Dyoria]

It's an abuse of the system and very cheesey, like the way waterfalling used to be.

If it was possible I wouldnt use it.

[GunMageinTraining]

I mean, I could justify a fluffy reason why it might work, namely that they negative/positive charge the enemy model and that just naturally draws the electrical charges from the rest of the unit, but yea... that's not a 'real' reason.

I would never even have thought to be able to hit from outside weapon range, so I'll wait and see the final rules on the model and go from there, completely ignoring the potential borkness of it.

[AJ the Ronin]

Page 245 people.

It explain the order you make attacks.

Step 4 says that if you are out of range you skip Steps 5 and 6 and go directly to step 7.

See how step 5 (that is skipped if you are out of range) deal with effects that hit or miss automatically.


That means, even if you auto-hit you need range with the RAW.

[brotherscott]

Pages 244 and 245 (Appendix A, Timing) have been the most useful tools in Prime MK II. Second being the rules index.

@ AJ- page 255 is the templates. Not sure how they help with timing... :D

[AJ the Ronin]

Fixed the page. :P