About Rök

[jailajaila]

It´s Just me the only one that thinks Rök is a 11-point big piece of S**t?

11 Points, seriously? Eleven? With no Reach?

For 1 more point I field Mulg, and for 1 less point i field an EBDT.

Maybe its a matter of perspective, and i just can´t see its value.

Comments? Please?


Thanks a lot. Give me sight beyond sight!

[bakaryu]

I wholeheartedly disagree about Rok, he has numerous qualities that make him stand out, even over Mulg.

First of all on the charge he has three initial attacks (one of which is RAT5 SP6 POW14 with crit Freeze) which is better than any of our other warbeasts outright.
Secondly Berserk is great for helping him clean out large amounts of infantry at minimal fury cost.
Thirdly Primal is just crazy good, we never struggle for POW but more and more models out there these days are packing DEF14 or higher and Primal just pushes that MAT to the point where you happily buy more swings instead of boosting attack rolls.
Fourthly (and finally) the synergies he has with some warlocks just make him worth that 1pt over taking an Earthborn (or a second one). Goad in combination with Berserk for example is completely and utterly ridiculous.

[Invaderzahn]

I see no reason not to take him in every Madrak1 list ever. berzerk+primal+overtake= dead enemy infantry.

[Bob of Doom]

You make some excellent points, but as I see it is that if I charge that def 14 model, I'm boosting the spray and hoping for a crit. If I've learned one thing from this game, you will never get what you need when you need it. Need 1 champ to make a tough roll? Sorry, that worthless KW is going to make 7 instead. You need a crit? Nope, you get crits when you need 3's on the dice whether you boosted or not.

So a spray 6 isn't that impressive. Rat 5 is even worse. Average infantry defense is 13 so you need 8's and with a spray 6 you can fit max 4 models under it if they were nice a lined up for it. But its ranged so gunny can help that. For infantry clearing duties, since I'm trolls, I leave to anything other than my melee heavies. Berserk is helpful if a bunch of guys charge me and I survive, but in my meta that doesn't happen. Otherwise I'm trampling or slamming into other lights and heavies.

I look at Rok as a heavy I take for 2 reason. If I need a beat stick or if I want Primal. For a beat stick, he's not that impressive and primal isn't worth 11 points.

[FrknGiganticTroll]

I think rok is pretty good actually,
He has some nice abilities such as assualt a nice animus and a frost breath attack which come in handy some times = ]
I really can't wait to see some pics of the model if he look awsome it's an instant bu for me!!

[Bob of Doom]

I see no reason not to take him in every Madrak1 list ever. berzerk+primal+overtake= dead enemy infantry.

Not really. Berserk happens immediately after the attack is resolved and overtake happens after the attack is resolved. From the wording it sounds like you clear out infantry near you, move an inch and hope you are near someone for your next attack. Otherwise you're screwed.

[jailajaila]

I look at Rok as a heavy I take for 2 reason. If I need a beat stick or if I want Primal. For a beat stick, he's not that impressive and primal isn't worth 11 points.

Indeed. I´m not paying 11 points to kill worthless infantry models. I want it to Kill Heavies. Yes, Primal is awesome, but not for 11 points.

[Walter]

Berserk + overtake is a pretty time honored trick. I think it works. Don't effects that cause an attack go last?

[somnicide]

Indeed. I´m not paying 11 points to kill worthless infantry models. I want it to Kill Heavies. Yes, Primal is awesome, but not for 11 points.

Up to 6 attacks at ps 20 that hit def 16 on average will wreck any heavy in the game other than maybe a closed devastator and that is still ~18 points to them - average rolls box a behemoth.

[Warsmith]

The more I look at Rok and proxy him, I like him. He offers much more than just another heavy. With some casters he is downright awesome. Madrak1 with overtake as some have pointed out. Doomy1 with Goad and his scroll to point his frenzy at an enemy. Doomy2 just loves any heavy. Even lowly Gunnbjorn likes him. Gunnbjorn does nothing for heavies in Trolls. He boosts their ranged attacks. Well with Rok you get a ranged attack that is worthwhile for Guided Fire, and then Rok can support himself with Primal if need be because Gunnbjorn can't. Ranged casters love heavies with a decent shot and a beat stick mentality.

Primal also makes our lights pretty awesome. Primal on an Axer is ridiculous. Charge in, thresher, max out fury, then next turn frenzy and drop all the fury. Fantastic. It even makes lights like the Bouncer hit hard and accurately.

Overall, I think Rok is a lot better than some are giving him credit for. Just have to look beyond the most obvious and see what is possible.

[bakaryu]

More pertinent will be perhaps to look at him against for example Ghetorix who has a very formidable unbuffed statline of DEF14 ARM19 in melee combat, if you sent an Earthborn after him with Rage (typical heavy busting animus) and assuming you got the charge off:

Charge attack (1st fury) and boost charge attack (2nd fury) = 8's to hit on 3d6 and POW21 = 12 damage on average.
Second open fist and boost attack (3rd fury) = 8's to hit and POW21 = 9 damage on average
Buy attack (4th fury) and boost attack (5th fury) = 8's to hit and POW21 = 9 damage on average

You just maxed your Earthborn and killed him on averages with 2 damage points to spare. However 8's on 3d6 with 3 attacks you will miss one on average, and 21 damage will NOT kill Ghetorix.

Now we take that same Earthborn and give him Primal instead.

Charge (1st fury) with 6's to hit at POW20 = 11 damage on average
2nd initial with 6's to hit at POW20 = 8 damage on average
Buy (2nd fury) with 6's to hit at POW20 = 8 damage on average
Buy (3rd fury) with 6's to hit at POW20 = 8 damage on average

6's to hit on 2d6 is a little over 30% miss rate, so you would typically have to buy into a 4th fury point to kill Ghetorix, however this still leaves you one fury point better off than you would have otherwise been.

Admittedly the downside is you lose your EBDT for the next turn, but if you ABSOLUTELY must kill him this turn then thats a price you gladly pay.

[N0rdicNinja]

I don't mind him and definitely would use him... I'm just a little miffed that the last caster I would actually use him with is Borka... 9.99 times out of 10 I would go with a Mauler over this guy in a Borka list. Wish the whole "best friends" bit carried over a bit better in the rules.

To clarify:
- With Mosh Pit up Rage is far superior to Primal, boost the first attack, auto hit with the rest. Or even better still charge in with something else first to knock it down.
- Grab and Smash is stupid good under Borka's feat
- 2 points less for the same amount of fury.

[Goldstep]

Um... let's step one step back with Madrak's overtake. Right after the word overtake within his feat it says "Additionally, when a friendly Faction model destroys one or more enemy models with a melee attack while it is in Ironhideʼs control area, the friendly model can make an additional melee attack. " So Berzerk is redundant.
In other words... against models with a low DEF and ARM, and who are packed in tightly, you get a similar effect from Rok as you do a Kriel Warrior. Add buffs (Carnage, Stone Strength, Fervor, etc) and you start working your way to the following:

A Champion Hero with Stone Strength and Rage as well as a Fell Call and Carnage for accuracy can reliably kill every model with DEF 15 or less and ARM 18 or less without wounds who can be within 3 inches of where he was standing to kill another model.


That said, just because the feat you thought would be neat with him does the same thing for him as it does for EVERYTHING in the army, doesn't mean Rok is bad.
Just that you might have to dig a little deeper.

[jailajaila]

Up to 6 attacks at ps 20 that hit def 16 on average will wreck any heavy in the game other than maybe a closed devastator and that is still ~18 points to them - average rolls box a behemoth.

You forget something: Next turn, Rok frenzies. 11 points on the table, doing nothing but smashing something nearby. No contest, no control...Nothing. It´s not that easy. Primal is a double edged blade.

[Soda Breeze]

Rok is a reliable way for eDoomshaper to handle multiple medium-based infantry models. He hits hard and consistently enough under Primal to blow away Iron Flesh Gators with Barnabas or crack non-feat turn Maelock gators, although he does waaay better against the former than the latter, and Refuge allows him to haul himself convenient for the frenzy turn. Rok can also be used as a scalpel for small-based infantry under eDoom, Goading towards unit UAs and Refuging out of the path he made for himself afterward.

[chrisBatson]

I guess I suck. I like him becuase he different than what I have now. He gives me a few options that I don't have. I don't always need to play the best. Sometimes, I want to play something different.

[jailajaila]

I guess I suck. I like him becuase he different than what I have now. He gives me a few options that I don't have. I don't always need to play the best. Sometimes, I want to play something different.

You´re totally right. I´m just saying it´s not worthy for 11 points.

[underwaterviuw]

I think that Rok works pretty well with Borka. It's not that what Borka has helps him, but that Borka doesn't really need to worry about him. No worries about generating too much fury when you Primal, no worries about Mosh Pit for accuracy. Borka can somewhat control his Hyper Aggressive (he has that, right?) with Windwall. Rok just does what he does (kill), and Borka's fine with that.

[petegrrrr]

You forget something: Next turn, Rok frenzies. 11 points on the table, doing nothing but smashing something nearby. No contest, no control...Nothing. It´s not that easy. Primal is a double edged blade.

You forget something. If I killed the last heavy on the board or a caster, I don't care and it doesn't matter.

[joedj]

11 points that allows my light warbeasts to be more accurate and damaging, therefore less supporting and more FIGHTING! Go Swampie go, just kidding ;)
11 points that shores up Gunny's main weakness: He wants more ranged, but needs a heavy killer(s). Bombers now have a fighting chance after being engaged.
11 points that Tramples at +2 MAT and STR. Tramples are often used for positioning, but they're also great for Snacking/Healing, when the trampler can actually hit the fools in the path!
11 points to combat no-knockdown spam/higher DEF. [Roots of the Earth on Warpwolves is evil (I know I tried it :D).] No-knockdowns go directly against our main DEF mitigating abilities (mainly Slams). Primal gives an 'any of our armies' approach to dealing with higher DEFs, in a beer-bellied package that can also generate high damage.

Yeah, he can't fully replace my EBDT, nor Mulg, nor even my DTM, but he'll probably get equal playing time! If PP put out a Troll Warbeast, even a character, that outshone all those three, I'd be thrilled, and then disappointed because I'd always, always, always feel like I was fielding the WRONG competitive choice if I fielded the old favs.

[Just wait, we'll be getting a Pyg Warcaster in 2013 that has 'Playing God' and Rok's value will skyrocket! :D]

[Warsmith]

You´re totally right. I´m just saying it´s not worthy for 11 points.

If you're not going to be convinced otherwise, then why even start this thread?

[FranzGrenstein]

More pertinent will be perhaps to look at him against for example Ghetorix who has a very formidable unbuffed statline of DEF14 ARM19 in melee combat, if you sent an Earthborn after him with Rage (typical heavy busting animus) and assuming you got the charge off:

Charge attack (1st fury) and boost charge attack (2nd fury) = 8's to hit on 3d6 and POW21 = 12 damage on average.
Second open fist and boost attack (3rd fury) = 8's to hit and POW21 = 9 damage on average
Buy attack (4th fury) and boost attack (5th fury) = 8's to hit and POW21 = 9 damage on average

You just maxed your Earthborn and killed him on averages with 2 damage points to spare. However 8's on 3d6 with 3 attacks you will miss one on average, and 21 damage will NOT kill Ghetorix.

Now we take that same Earthborn and give him Primal instead.

Charge (1st fury) with 6's to hit at POW20 = 11 damage on average
2nd initial with 6's to hit at POW20 = 8 damage on average
Buy (2nd fury) with 6's to hit at POW20 = 8 damage on average
Buy (3rd fury) with 6's to hit at POW20 = 8 damage on average

6's to hit on 2d6 is a little over 30% miss rate, so you would typically have to buy into a 4th fury point to kill Ghetorix, however this still leaves you one fury point better off than you would have otherwise been.

Admittedly the downside is you lose your EBDT for the next turn, but if you ABSOLUTELY must kill him this turn then thats a price you gladly pay.

You are kind of doing it the hard way, EBDT+Rage= Str15, advance, headbutt 2 focus, 1 for the power attack, 1 for the boost, EBDT P+S is now 21, trex is kd (if he is not being run with eBaulder) you hit automaticly and are D+4 on damage since trex does not benefit from unyielding. So if everything hits you have 1: D-2 hit from the headbutt (5 damage), and 3: D+4 bought hits(11 damage per hit for 3 hits 33 damage.)

When it comes to Rok I don't know if he is crap or not (won't know till he hits the board), I do know he does not have reach (every main factions named heavy has reach except for trolls) I also think his threashold stat is not good, he is speed 5 w/o reach, berzerk on a nonreach model, and he cost 11 points....

If you can't give him reach at least give him stumbling drunk so it fits with the fluff, or at least when he is in a battle group with Borka.

[Soda Breeze]

You are kind of doing it the hard way, EBDT+Rage= Str15, advance, headbutt 2 focus, 1 for the power attack, 1 for the boost, EBDT P+S is now 21, trex is kd (if he is not being run with eBaulder) you hit automaticly and are D+4 on damage since trex does not benefit from unyielding. So if everything hits you have 1: D-2 hit from the headbutt (5 damage), and 3: D+4 bought hits(11 damage per hit for 3 hits 33 damage.)

When it comes to Rok I don't know if he is crap or not (won't know till he hits the board), I do know he does not have reach (every main factions named heavy has reach except for trolls) I also think his threashold stat is not good, he is speed 5 w/o reach, berzerk on a nonreach model, and he cost 11 points....

If you can't give him reach at least give him stumbling drunk so it fits with the fluff.

Except Reach with Goad would be broken beyond belief. The Warpwolf Stalker, who has Reach and Berserk, can effectively decimate entire squads of infantry, and it gets -1- 3" Warpath move with Kromac, and Kromac needs to take a Gorax for Primal. With eDoomshaper, on feat turn, you can theoretically get Rok 10" through infantry on Goads alone, then Refuge him back the same distance. Reach with that could get him anywhere on the board.

[somnicide]

You forget something: Next turn, Rok frenzies. 11 points on the table, doing nothing but smashing something nearby. No contest, no control...Nothing. It´s not that easy. Primal is a double edged blade.

I don't forget that and maybe it is just my meta but typically my heavy is dead anyway. Unless I am using it against something lighter or flanking in which case I won't use primal because I don't need it

[subgenius]

When it comes to Rok I don't know if he is crap or not (won't know till he hits the board), I do know he does not have reach (every main factions named heavy has reach except for trolls)

The Deathjack would like a word with you about his missing reach.

[FranzGrenstein]

Except Reach with Goad would be broken beyond belief. The Warpwolf Stalker, who has Reach and Berserk, can effectively decimate entire squads of infantry, and it gets -1- 3" Warpath move with Kromac, and Kromac needs to take a Gorax for Primal. With eDoomshaper, on feat turn, you can theoretically get Rok 10" through infantry on Goads alone, then Refuge him back the same distance. Reach with that could get him anywhere on the board.

Let me get this straight you are agruing that with specific caster it would be broken using an example of an other caster that the designers of the game don't think is broke. Goad trick is cute, problem is you could only do that twice, once to goad and buy an attack to initiate the berzerk, so with a charge on feat turn with reach total 13" threat- 2 goads makes it a 17 inch (19 with rush) threat, and then you refuge back 8"(10" with rush.) That is a lot of threat, but that is one caster on their feat turn. Those goads are also subject to freestrikes.


The Deathjack would like a word with you about his missing reach.

Appologies, I meant in this book. All named character beasts are 11 pts and have reach, except for Rok who does not have reach.

[Gavriel]

Here's how I see it. Rok is a Mauler with a better animus, more killing power due to the one pow 18 attack, and some decent infantry killing tricks. Mulg and the EBDT are both really good at killing heavies, and Rok is too, but unlike the other two Rok can pretty reliably handle a unit of infantry without having to rely on trampling. Boostable sprays with fury 5 are golden, and thanks to berzerk he shoudn't need to buy attacks with fury once he gets into melee, so you can spend that fury on boosting the spray attacks. He's a good all rounder beast where Mulg and the EBDT are hard target eliminators. I'm definitely down with him.

[Bob of Doom]

@PG_Warsmith: If your bringing Rok to place Primal on your Axer, than its an 11 point animus

@Soda Breeze: A Gorax is 4 points and a Stalker is 10. That's 14 points to get the combo off. It takes 17 points to get anything similar in trolls.

I'm not saying Rok is bad. I don't think that jailajaila is saying he's bad either. I just think compared to our other heavies, he's just another heavy. He does synergize well with certain casters, as all our heavies do. He makes Gunbjorn better which I'm ambivalent about. He's Borka's heavy and he excels under another caster. I never like that just based off fluff.

Finally, forced frenzing sucks. Good under pDoomy, a pain under everyone else. So with Rok you have to pay attention to placement every turn. I play Dr. A for Farrow and with his feat, you pay attention to positioning. I really view it as a beast I'm losing control over for 1 turn. He might kill something, he might charge something, or he might just walk forward and snarl. All of the options are the same, I just lost control of my 11 point heavy for 1 turn. And that hurts.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Here's how I see it. Rok is a Mauler with a better animus, more killing power due to the one pow 18 attack, and some decent infantry killing tricks. Mulg and the EBDT are both really good at killing heavies, and Rok is too, but unlike the other two Rok can pretty reliably handle a unit of infantry without having to rely on trampling. Boostable sprays with fury 5 are golden, and thanks to berzerk he shoudn't need to buy attacks with fury once he gets into melee, so you can spend that fury on boosting the spray attacks. He's a good all rounder beast where Mulg and the EBDT are hard target eliminators. I'm definitely down with him.

Better animus than a Mauler? Situationally. For Gunnbjorn, definitely. For pDoomy who can at least mitigate the weakness of autofrenzy by making sure the beast isn't faced in some random direction and out of position on the frenzy? Sure. For Borka, eDoomy or pMadrak who all have good ways of boosting hit chances without having to lose a beast for a turn? Not better. Restricted to beasts only, rather than being used on any model in the army including caster? Not better in the slightest. Rage is so much better of an animus than Primal it is silly.

That said, Mat 7 Pow 18 to start is certainly much better than Mat 6 Pow 16, and the spray is sweet. Berserk without reach is a nice little benny, but certainly nothing to write home about. With Goad it is a little better, but still a super fury intensive way to kill infantry. He certainly won't reliably kill a unit, unless your opponent plays a lot of Defense 10 infantry that they line up in shield walls in the old mk1 style. The spray is a nice side benny, but expecting it to reliably kill more than 2-3 models at most is expecting way more than you will get out of it. 2 points for Mat 7 Pow 18, mostly worse but situationally better animus, nice little spray and I suppose Immunity: Cold which does occasionally come up - and makes Rok giggle by denying eSorscha a feat. It is a decent price to pay, but I think it will replace Earthborn's in lists, not Maulers, Pyres or Slags. You bring the damage buff not just for beasts generally, you also want that versatility. And those that do bring it just for beasts, which is pretty much eDoomy - already can boost hits reliably anyways, so the extra Mat is not nearly as key.

That said, I am strongly considering him with Calandra at 50 as well, due to the Bomber, Slag and Impaler benefiting greatly from Primal and the list lacking a really strong heavy hitter. It is hard choices to decide what to remove. Other than that, pDoomy and Gunnbjorn are solid. It should be noted that the Mauler only reliably makes it into two lists, so it is already getting some decent consideration. That is not even considering what could happen with new warlocks. Has some interesting synergy with Grim, but I have an even harder time fitting him in with Grim, he would have to replace the Earthborn and that is a really, really, really difficult trade to make. Losing the extra point would also shake the list up a bit. Having the extra accuracy and hitting power after the engagement turn would be nice though.

[Digestive]

You forget something: Next turn, Rok frenzies. 11 points on the table, doing nothing but smashing something nearby. No contest, no control...Nothing. It´s not that easy. Primal is a double edged blade.

Is this new in SR 2012? In SR2011 only wild warbeasts do not contest or control.

[Goris]

Frenzied =/= Wild

Wild happens when a beast is outside of a warlocks control or the warlocks dies.

[bakaryu]

Let me get this straight you are agruing that with specific caster it would be broken using an example of an other caster that the designers of the game don't think is broke. Goad trick is cute, problem is you could only do that twice, once to goad and buy an attack to initiate the berzerk, so with a charge on feat turn with reach total 13" threat- 2 goads makes it a 17 inch (19 with rush) threat, and then you refuge back 8"(10" with rush.) That is a lot of threat, but that is one caster on their feat turn. Those goads are also subject to freestrikes.

You are wrong with how the Goad trick works.

If effects trigger that give both a free advance and an additional attack then the free advance must take precidence. So what you end up with on eDoomie's feat turn:

Rok charges 10" for free and (presumably) kills the stuff he is engaging.
Rok goads (1 fury) advancing two inches.
Rok berserks against whatever is in his melee range (presumably) killing the stuff he is engaging.
Rok goads (2 fury) advancing two inches.
Repeat until full of fury or you have chained your way to the dead warcaster.

[Greggle]

Huh: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/r%C3%B6k

[Enazel]

Primal + trample towards caster one very dead caster a lot of infantry left for dead. :)

[jailajaila]

If you're not going to be convinced otherwise, then why even start this thread?

Where did I say i´m not going to be convinced? I´m just trying to look deeper at my new Trollbloods models.

Yes, Rök is a Killing machine. But i was expecting :Reach: XD

[bakaryu]

Rok with reach would have been utterly broken, especially as he comes with Berserk.

With reach he would have just completely invalidated Mulg being faster, cheaper, more fury efficient and with a better animus.

[Arrik]

Anyone remember the end of the field test, and endless debate over Mulg? Just sayin' :D

[Enazel]

Reach + Berzerk would have broken him, or made him so many points for him not to be worth it.

[thegreatblah]

@jailajaila, I think you are missing a few things about Rok that makes him a pretty solid heavy. FIrst of all, his animus is quite good, giving us a hard buff to MAT for the beasts is pretty golden even without the +2 STR. The Frenzy issue of primal isn't bad in my meta since typically sending a beast in = it's death so it had better be effective. Secondly, he hits hard... very hard, meaning he is killing things more effective than the Earthborn untill the EBDT is by a POW 6 weapon. His MAT is as good as it gets for heavies, and for kicks and giggles he has a very strong spray that you can use when you assault, its essentially a free POW 14 attack when you charge in and if it happens to Crit then stuff is guaranteed to die.

[Knights_of_Nee]

I think what he is trying to say is, that he would like his cake and be able to eat it too. So he doesn't have reach, I think the rest of his abilities more then make up for that.

[FrknGiganticTroll]

I think rök will turn out pretty well on the table. I think is animus and his ice breath are really awsome!

[Dark Angel]

I think he's solid. We have an awesome beast selection and Rok is another awesome beast. It will come down to preference and playstyle I think but Rok can certainly do the job.

[somnicide]

Something else to consider is that yeah, everyone else's character beast got reach, but only el presidente Karn and Mulg had reach before this. Neither Typhon nor Megalith have it.

[FranzGrenstein]

You are wrong with how the Goad trick works.

If effects trigger that give both a free advance and an additional attack then the free advance must take precidence. So what you end up with on eDoomie's feat turn:

Rok charges 10" for free and (presumably) kills the stuff he is engaging.
Rok goads (1 fury) advancing two inches.
Rok berserks against whatever is in his melee range (presumably) killing the stuff he is engaging.
Rok goads (2 fury) advancing two inches.
Repeat until full of fury or you have chained your way to the dead warcaster.

I think you, kind of got that wrong. (I am at work, no access to books.) The way I understand berserking, you keep swinging until something breaks the chain of killing, like toughing out, snacking, ect. If it works the way you are thinking you would keep swinging on the toughed out models.
So you keep swinging until you kill everything or fail to kill something, the chain is then broken. I suppose you could goad after the first kill, but by my estimation the goad would break the chain and you would have to buy a swing to start the chain again.
My point still remains the goad only happens with 2 casters, the only other move/swing shenanigans, I can think of, is trolls have is Maddys overtake feat.

Here is a question, do you use up your initials when berzerking?

[bakaryu]

No, bonus attacks are not purchased attacks, and so any remaining initials are "saved" until the bonus attacks stop.

And no I am saying you keep swinging even if something makes a tough check, as it wasn't destroyed :p
Also berserking isn't "keep swinging until theres nothing left or you fail to kill", it is a free attack that must be made against a model in melee range if you destroy a model with a melee attack.

Even though they are effectively the same, the semantics are vitally different.

[Davian2K5]

Actually, he has the Goad trick right; Goad does NOT break the chain of attacks from Berserk. So if you charge a model with Rok and have 2 more base to base, you one shot all 3 of them. You have used ONE initial attack, and you are still technically in Berserk state. At this point, you Goad, bringing yourself base to base with 2 more. The Berserk attack from number 3 triggers still - AFTER the Goad (and yes, this has been ruled on in the rules forum, I believe, in the same effect as Overtake + Attack from pMadrak, so it's the correct sequence), which means you get numbers 4 and 5.

At this point, if you hit all of them with the Berserks that chained off the INITIAL charge attack, you still have your initial attack, plus however much fury (3 if you paid for the charge, 4 if you didnt) left to spend.

THIS is why Reach on Rok would be completely, utterly, ridiculously, and stupidly broken. You could wipe an entire army on 5 fury from Goads only with decent positioning. And that might not even be Feat turn. At least pMaddy takes a Feat to do it.

[Antigonus]

I wholeheartedly disagree about Rok, he has numerous qualities that make him stand out, even over Mulg.

First of all on the charge he has three initial attacks (one of which is RAT5 SP6 POW14 with crit Freeze) which is better than any of our other warbeasts outright.

*cough* The Blitzer would like to disagree with you here, with between three and five initial attacks...

[bakaryu]

*cough* The Blitzer would like to disagree with you here, with between three and five initial attacks...

You mean a heavy with 1d3 RAT5 POW13s and two MAT5 POW15s and 4 fury?

I would much rather 1 RAT5 POW14 assaulting spray, 1 MAT7 POW16 and 1 MAT7 POW18 with 5 fury :)

[jailajaila]

Maybe i don´t like Rök since i was hoping our first 7-8 point heavy Warbeast in Domination...so Kind of dissapointed XD

[The Happy Anarchist]

I think it is definitely a matter of expectations way too high.

[bakaryu]

Honestly expectations must have been for MkI Deathjack if Rok let you down, he is an excellent beast and I look forward to adding him to my collection

[RevolverAdamska]

Our heavy crush like a truck on face, now whit Rok they hit better, harder and after welcome you whit loads of soft average pow 17+ caress they frenzy , cause love as been too much and it is time to feast on the Meat/metal burrito left on the bloodstained ground, primal assure that even the light beast can face heavyer target now.
11 pt no pathfinder and reach true but we are not the Legion, we need to spend some point in the axer and it is done =)
For fun match i was think about Rok and Gunnbjorn =)

[Greggle]

Has anyone thought of fielding Rok with a winter troll and shooting him in the back with the cold spray to hit other models after he wrecks their infantry? Not as useful as a cold AOE would be, but still pretty useful to change angles and maybe get a caster with it.

[RevolverAdamska]

Has anyone thought of fielding Rok with a winter troll and shooting him in the back with the cold spray to hit other models after he wrecks their infantry? Not as useful as a cold AOE would be, but still pretty useful to change angles and maybe get a caster with it.

I don't get the point mate you can hit rok easy but about all the others model you still need to hit rat 4, if i'm not missing something in the rules ofc =)

[The Happy Anarchist]

Honestly expectations must have been for MkI Deathjack if Rok let you down, he is an excellent beast and I look forward to adding him to my collection

He is a decent beast and will make it into some of my lists. That said, I don't know if it was so much high expectations as very specific ones. People really desperately wanted the reach or cheap heavies.

[petegrrrr]

I've been clamoring for both those things since...well, probably the day the fieldtests began, and I still am very impressed with Rok.

I'd love a cheap heavy.

I would kill for a model with reach not named mulg.

But I will happily take another mat 7 heavy with a hard mat buff and a free spray on charges any day of the week.

[machine007]

He and an axer are great friends. I plan on taking them both together very very frequently, most particularly with PMadrak and Doomy. Although I may not take them in every list as I try to stay away from characters in generally to the best of my ability, I can see him making appearence over Mulg in some of my lists.

I'll take him for the frost breath he breathes after he downs a few kegs of beer.

[FranzGrenstein]

Ok, so I have gotten home, and read the books. Let me put this out so I am sure I have it right how the berzerk interaction works.

A model with berzerk swings and destroys one or more models with a melee attack. It then gets an immediate free swing that it must make against a model in it's melee range. Which can start a chain. The chain stops when a model toughs out (not destroyed), or is snacked on (RFP.)

After looking over Goad I think the whole confusion is when does immediately happen? Since goad happens on immediately would that interupt the berzerk? Sorry, if you think I am belaboring the point I just want to get it set in my mind. No offence, I am still going to check with my PG, if I do this in the middle of a game I want to be able to explain it to my opponent.

I can see were that could be very nasty.

Love Rok or hate Rok, he what we got to work with, and no amount of grumbling is going to change the minds of the developers.


Something else to consider is that yeah, everyone else's character beast got reach, but only el presidente Karn and Mulg had reach before this. Neither Typhon nor Megalith have it.

I think you should apply heavies to that as well, so the trolls have Mulg and *crickets*..... and everyone else has.

[RevolverAdamska]

Something else to consider is that yeah, everyone else's character beast got reach, but only el presidente Karn and Mulg had reach before this. Neither Typhon nor Megalith have it.

Yeah Typhon haven't reach, 3/4 of all the other legion beast does and are even pathfinder , so may be at least they can stand whitout it mate ... Megalith lack of reach like every beast whit open fist only as weapon mate.
Still i like Rok a lot =)

[machine007]

Eh, Reach can be a double edged sword anyway and I don't really mind him not having reach so long as he has the average speed. We have plenty of other ways to slingshot him over to where he needs to be, and never had a problem before doing it with some of our other heavies, so I am not really so worried about it.

[thegreatblah]

Ok, so I have gotten home, and read the books. Let me put this out so I am sure I have it right how the berzerk interaction works.

A model with berzerk swings and destroys one or more models with a melee attack. It then gets an immediate free swing that it must make against a model in it's melee range. Which can start a chain. The chain stops when a model toughs out (not destroyed), or is snacked on (RFP.)

After looking over Goad I think the whole confusion is when does immediately happen? Since goad happens on immediately would that interupt the bererk? Sorry, if you think I am belaboring the point I just want to get it set in my mind. No offence, I am still going to check with my PG, if I do this in the middle of a game I want to be able to explain it to my opponent.

I can see were that could be very nasty.

Love Rok or hate Rok, he what we got to work with, and no amount of grumbling is going to change the minds of the developers.



I think you should apply heavies to that as well, so the trolls have Mulg and *crickets*..... and everyone else has.

If both abilities happen on immediately from the same trigger the active player chooses the order in which they resolve unless the abilities contradict each other.

Goad and Berserk can work together in the order chosen by the active player because once you resolve goad the conditions for berserk are still present (unless the beast ends up out of melee range).
Snacking and Berserk run counter to each other because once you resolve one of the conditions for the other to resolve are no longer present. If you resolve Berserk the model has been destroyed and is no longer there to snack on, if you snack the model is no longer destroyed (it is RFP) so berserk can no longer trigger.

So long a Rok is damaged Snacking can allow you to prevent berserking into a friendly model. Choosing to resolve goad first can have the same affect by moving away from friendly models (should you find that necessary to prevent Rok eating them)

[jdripley]

No reach - cuts both ways. Harder to get your berserker attacks off on enemies, but harder to get your berserker attacks off on ALLIES as well. Lacking reach makes it easier to position your own models near Rok without worrying about him eating them.

Primal and it's auto-frenzy - I'm not a top tier player so somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but Whelps cure Frenzies and give you your activation back, right? So put Primal on Rok, let him crush things, and run a pair of Whelps up nearby. So long as that's not the only thing threatening your opponent, you'll probably have at least one of the whelps left alive to feed to Rok. Or else, that's two attacks the enemy didn't make on something else, and Rok still gets to make a fully boosted POW 18 attack on something, which isn't all that bad. And maybe he gets his assault off during a frenzy charge? Is that how it works? Never played a warbeast with assault before, so I'm not sure.

I too was hoping for a 7 or 8 point beast, so I'm bummed that Rok is 11 points. If Rok were a beefed up Axer that did similar things on a smaller scale, or even a character Winter Troll that was 7 or 8 points, I would buy him for sure. As he's an 11 point Dire version of a very angry Winter Troll... well if all of this stuff about Dire Troll plastic kits comes to pass, there won't be much reason not to pay to get the bits to make a Rok out of the kit too I suppose.

[machine007]

A whelp can be eaten to remove all the fury off a warbeast after leeching within a certain distance, and does not have any effect on stopping a frenzy if the beast was supposed to frenzy.

[Edwars]

Having read the tactical tip for Berserk and Snacking, Rok should almost never attack an allied model.

Simply snack the last enemy model in melee range and berserk will not trigger.

Personally I love the big guy, the sheer amount of damage potential is amazing

[FranzGrenstein]

Having read the tactical tip for Berserk and Snacking, Rok should almost never attack an allied model.

Simply snack the last enemy model in melee range and berserk will not trigger.

Personally I love the big guy, the sheer amount of damage potential is amazing


If Rok is a full health, Rok can not snack. "If this model heals, the boxed model is removed from play." It is the RFP effect that breaks the chain on the berzerk.

Ripley@ Whelps only remove fury, they do nothing for the frenzy. Primal states the beast automatically frenzies, if it has fury on it or not, even if primal is replaced by another animus, the beast frenzies.

[Edwars]

@FranzGrenstein (http://privateerpressforums.com/member.php?54580-FranzGrenstein) Actually, this begs the question, "can an undamaged model be healed"

while this would serve no practical purpose, it would still allow snacking to interrupt berserk.


i understand that this is nit picking, and may be an infernal question, but i think it may work.


ie: RoK uses snacking and is healed 0 point of health.

this would fall under the same category as heal or repair as a special action. ie a model with the repair ability succeeds its skill check upon an undamaged model. thus the model is repaired D6 which is applied, resulting in 0 gain of damage points.

[wargrim]

No, this question was already answered by an infernal. You can't snack if you're at full health, sadly.

But what does berserk without Doomy? Your're able to kill the 2-3 dudes without needing your second initial?

[Davian2K5]

No, this question was already answered by an infernal. You can't snack if you're at full health, sadly.

But what does berserk without Doomy? Your're able to kill the 2-3 dudes without needing your second initial?

Not necessarily just that - it can also help with fury management. Was proxying Rok recently, and he got charged, took a bit of damage but the guy was mostly wanting to tie up my heavies for the moment. I cleared the guys off the sides (with Krielstone grunts, hilariously), trampled over the ones in front (mmm, tasty snacking - I rolled to heal 3 on all of them, too. That was fun, ended up in the middle of another 3-4 guys because of positioning, and bought one attack to wipe out the rest through Berserk. For 2 fury and 2 Krielstone grunt attacks, I wiped out something like 7-8 guys, as well as healing about 13-14 points of damage.

Are there other ways to manage fury? Of course. But I wasn't running any whelps that game, and that gave me some flexibility, as I really wanted Rok to not run hot so I'd have a transfer monkey if need be. I would have had to invest significantly more into killing what I did without Berserk, but instead I got a pretty sweet deal. It would've been nice to have Reach - would've probably knocked off 3-4 more grunts (Stormblades, I believe) if I'd had it, but it was hardly necessary. It just took some careful positioning to make sure I got what benefit I could from Rok.

[bakaryu]

The one thing that does work to mitigate Primal somewhat is Dahlia Hallyr who can have a frenzied warbeast forfeit its activation instead.

[Bunny de Guerre]

If both abilities happen on immediately from the same trigger the active player chooses the order in which they resolve unless the abilities contradict each other.


12. The attack is now resolved. After the attack is resolved:
a. Resolve effects that automatically damage, destroy or remove models from play.
b. Resolve active player effects that do not involve making an attack.
c. Resolve inactive player effects.
d. Resolve active player effects that involve making an attack.

While both Berserk and Goad are "after an attack is resolved", there is an order they have to be done in - it looks like you would always Goad first, and then go Berserk second. The active player gets to choose the order abilities are played at steps B and D, so if you had two movement shenanigans based on resolving an attack, you'd get to pick the order they happen in, but extra attacks generated from attacks being resolved always seem to come last.

[mikasa]

Asking for reach on Rok is madness. He would instantly make Mulg Outdated and worthless. As a Circle Orboros player, I can tell you that Primal is very, very worth casting, regardless of frenzy. It replaces the need for another Damage buffing animus, lets your lights threaten heavier targets and makes for great assassination runs on the kill turn.

Rok is a great heavy toolbox. With a few threat avenues as opposed to the linear modes . What they effectively gave us is the Field Test Overtake Mulg, without reach. Which is a good way to balance him for Doomshaper's goading antics. He allows you to take him and not have to bring a Mauler or a light to provide a beast buff.

And more importantly, he is not an auto-include. This is a huge point, as it does not make anything else obsolete. Balance and stopping power creep is very important for the integrity of the game. But he is certainly good enough to take out for a ride.

[thegreatblah]

While both Berserk and Goad are "after an attack is resolved", there is an order they have to be done in - it looks like you would always Goad first, and then go Berserk second. The active player gets to choose the order abilities are played at steps B and D, so if you had two movement shenanigans based on resolving an attack, you'd get to pick the order they happen in, but extra attacks generated from attacks being resolved always seem to come last.


Goad -
When a warbeast in this model!s battlegroup destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved this model can force the warbeast to advance up to 2˝.

Berserk -
When a model with Berserk destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attack against another model in its melee range.)



The active player may choose to either Berserk or Goad when they destroy a living model. Problem is if they choose Berserk first and move on to another attack the conditions for Goad have already passed... unless they kill another model with berserk. If they choose Goad first, the conditions for Berserk are still present since another attack has not yet been made.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Fun trick is to charge a beast or jack that has an infantry model next to it, you take the charge on the hard target and then slap the warrior model and presumably kill it. You kill a model and then get a free attack, but it doesn't have to be the same weapon. Take the pow 18/20 axe on the original hard target!

[petegrrrr]

Goad -
When a warbeast in this model!s battlegroup destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved this model can force the warbeast to advance up to 2˝.

Berserk -
When a model with Berserk destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attack against another model in its melee range.)




The active player may choose to either Berserk or Goad when they destroy a living model. Problem is if they choose Berserk first and move on to another attack the conditions for Goad have already passed... unless they kill another model with berserk. If they choose Goad first, the conditions for Berserk are still present since another attack has not yet been made.

That's actually not correct. The poster had it right.

Abilities that do not generate attacks ALWAYS trigger first. It's right in the timing table.

You do not get to choose. If you berserk, you have already moved past the step where you could have goaded. You must always goad first or not at all.

The active player gets to choose when abilities resolve at the same time, but goad and berserk do not resolve at the same step.

[thegreatblah]

I thought that is what I said.

[petegrrrr]

Yeah, I replied to the wrong post, lol.

[microdave]

Yes, rok is overpriced - its true of all troll heavies because PP way over-values snacking and regeneration. Mulg is a piece of crap for 12 points - so is Rok at 11. Compare them to 12 and 11 pt counterparts in other factions and its not hard to see.

The question you should be asking is whether rok is worth his points in trolls. i haven't proxied him enough yet to decide, but first indications say no.

Berserk may as well not even be printed on a SPD 5 heavy without reach - especially one with high pow and low mat/rat which is obviously designed for killing other heavies.

It basically means the only thing he has going for him is assault - a feature i'm not sure is worth the price given a mauler can tackle just as effectively and there is no effective range difference (aside from the spray).

[The Happy Anarchist]

Wow. What is with it these days with people trying to claim that Earthborns and Bombers are undercosted? There has been some argument on Mulg, though I disagree strongly and think he is easily worth the 12 points because of the level of armor and power we can get him, as well as the speed and accuracy. Maulers are also decent, and don't bring up Gladiators as pretty much everyone agrees that Gladiators are 9 point beasts. Blitzers are meh, and Rok seems to be getting embraced more and more.

If you can't think of the uses of heavies without reach that have berserk, when they are pointed out to you several times in a thread, I don't know what to say. It is situational, but not nearly as situational as you think, especially given our ability to brick and take charges from infantry successfully, as well as the ability to trample in and berserk. As much as I don't think Primal is as good as some have said, clearly it is a factor and a solid one. The spray is decent and the Mat 7 Pow 18 base is a very nice place to be.

It isn't Molik Karn or Deathjack good - but those are models that are better than their points level. You can't judge everything by the top tier in the game.

[bakaryu]

I must say that I am boggled at the statement that he has a low MAT/RAT, MAT7 RAT5 is the best combination of those two stats amongst all of our warbeasts, especially one who comes with his own buff for +2MAT and +2STR putting him up to a potential MAT9 anytime he wants to be (admittedly at the cost of frenzying next turn).

Berserk without reach is still perfectly usable, though it will rarely ever see its full potential unless you are using a warlock like the Doomshapers who can help him move between attacks.

[HellecticMojo]

question: Does Rok berserk if he kills something after frenzying?

The rulebook said that the frenzied warbeast couldn't activate on the activation phase, because it activates during the control phase (or was it maintanance? eh, before activation phase and after leaching) So is it correct to assume that the frenzy attack counts as using a combat action, and thus eligible for berserk?

[bakaryu]

It is an activation so theoretically yes.

Otherwise the text on Dahlia's charmer ability makes no sense when she can choose for a frenzying warbeast in her control to forfeits its activation instead.

[petegrrrr]

No, Rok will never berserk on a frenzy attack, because the rules for frenzy state you make 1 attack that cannot generate any other attacks.

[monkeyking68]

question: Does Rok berserk if he kills something after frenzying?

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?87477-Frenzy-and-Berserk&highlight=frenzy+berserk (http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?87477-Frenzy-and-Berserk&highlight=frenzy+berserk)

I think the answer is no since a ``frenzied warbeast cannot make addition attacks'' and since it is not its ``normal activation.''

[FranzGrenstein]

Mulg is a piece of crap for 12 points -.

http://troll.me/images/futurama-fry/cant-tell-if-sincere-or-just-being-sarcastic-thumb.jpg

[Goris]

While I enjoy a good discussion, I am truly baffled by all the negativity about our releases. It's almost as if people truly want a Warhammer 40k level of power creep in order to be happy with their army.

[The Happy Anarchist]

It is a common thing for people to say actually, because he is not Molik Karn or the Deathjack, he is more T-head/Behemoth/Typhon/Megalith level. Good in some lists, not incredible in others. And the idea that if we get a 9 or more realistically 10 point reach heavy with Mat 6 Pow 16 or 17 it would replace him in all lists ever - because Mat 9, crit smite, ARM 19 and Protective Fit/Relentless and his animus are all not worthwhile.

[Warsmith]

Mulg is a piece of crap for 12 points

7261

I don't think I can even respond to this comment with a straight face. :confused:

[TheHydrogenator]

Mulg is a piece of crap for 12 points - so is Rok at 11. Compare them to 12 and 11 pt counterparts in other factions and its not hard to see.

The question you should be asking is whether rok is worth his points in trolls. i haven't proxied him enough yet to decide, but first indications say no.

Berserk may as well not even be printed on a SPD 5 heavy without reach - especially one with high pow and low mat/rat which is obviously designed for killing other heavies.

Aren't you just a bucket full of wisdom today

[bakaryu]

I better say this before some mod comes in to start laying down the warning or just outright locking this thread, theres a lot of personal sniping going on now and very little actual constructive discussion.

People better play nice or the mods will start wielding the lock hammers!

[Digestive]

While I enjoy a good discussion, I am truly baffled by all the negativity about our releases.

This is also more and more my impression. Somethings changed around here (not only in this thread but the whole tb-forum). Sad

[thegreatblah]

This is also more and more my impression. Somethings changed around here (not only in this thread but the whole tb-forum). Sad

This tends to happen with the influx on players coinciding with releases. Typically it only takes a few weeks to return back to a normal constructive place to come find out about Trolls.

[TheHydrogenator]

While I enjoy a good discussion, I am truly baffled by all the negativity about our releases

I think the root of it is expectations. People have been wanting cheap heavies, non character heavies with reach and some kind of RAT buff. We got none of them. When Domination first came out I will not lie as a whole I was kind of disappointed with our releases as a whole, I felt like we really didn't get anything that altered our play style like some other factions got.

Jarl was the only thing that made me giddy and the more I play him the more I love the guy, he is an incredible 'lock with a freaking awesome toolbox of spells and abilities. IMO he is one of our top tier casters for sure, he presents so many bad match ups for a lot of armies and besides Legion there are very few models that can get around his feat. Magic Bullet lets us deal with support pieces that we had no chance of dealing with before and is easily capable of ending games vs. squishy casters

After the dust settled a bit and I got some hands on time with our releases for the most part it was a decent release, I got some new toys and for that I'm always happy. Sure we didn't get a AAA release but it was still a decent haul, Rok is solid, the SoB's are very good, the Lightning Troll is pretty bonkers in the right list. It wasn't amazing, we didn't get what we wanted but the crazy negativity is totally unwarranted. We got some good stuff, and after a lot of games post domination the only model I still don't think will see a lot of play time is eGrissel, she continues to disappoint which is a shame because her prime version is so good.

[Bob of Doom]

I realize that there is some negativity with the releases, but I think that will happen when we got such a balanced and a little different releases that what the forum was expecting. I actually thought the thread was not going "Rok sucks hard core" but more to that "Rok does not impress me." This was reading responses about our releases that boiled down to "ZOMG Rok is the Tell all end all ROFL LOL!!!!!" Not exactly but hopefully you get the idea.

Did we get anything broken? No, and that's a good thing. Were some of us shocked by what we got? I know I was with a character unit who functions amazingly well solo in a faction that functions amazing well at buffing. I was hoping for something like the great bears where each character granted the others something than the melee version of the black 13th. Also with Grissel moving from a very fury efficient caster, where I would toss fury away because I had no use for it, to a very fury intensive caster. But the important thing is that nothing we got is broken or outright replaces anything we had. Except the Scattergunner UA.

[TheHydrogenator]

But the important thing is that nothing we got is broken or outright replaces anything we had. Except the Scattergunner UA.

Scattergunner UA is awesome, makes a nigh unplayable unit before hand a very good one now in the right style of list

[machine007]

Yes, rok is overpriced - its true of all troll heavies because PP way over-values snacking and regeneration. Mulg is a piece of crap for 12 points - so is Rok at 11. Compare them to 12 and 11 pt counterparts in other factions and its not hard to see.

The question you should be asking is whether rok is worth his points in trolls. i haven't proxied him enough yet to decide, but first indications say no.

Berserk may as well not even be printed on a SPD 5 heavy without reach - especially one with high pow and low mat/rat which is obviously designed for killing other heavies.

It basically means the only thing he has going for him is assault - a feature i'm not sure is worth the price given a mauler can tackle just as effectively and there is no effective range difference (aside from the spray).

Man between the SOBs and everything else you seem to dislike, what do you actually field when you play trolls?

[Goldstep]

I think the root of it is expectations. People have been wanting cheap heavies, non character heavies with reach and some kind of RAT buff. We got none of them.
It's this all the way.

I say this because people in my area know that I was suggesting about a week before that the storm Troll was likely to be closer to the pyre than the slag and would likely be a gun with electro-leap and crit-distrupt on the fist. I even had the idea that crit-disrupt would be an animus and I feared the backlash.
And then it had e-generator which is much better than e-leap right next to electrostatic which makes sense next to vitriol and it burns and so forth.
And it's nice. I kinda like the stormy.

Of course there are other people who were expecting an auto-disrupt, electro leap on his fists, ROF 2+ and so forth.
They were really sad about this model.
Expectations.:DmgType-Electric:

I expected eGrissel to be different fell calls and to really want to be in the thick but not as good at it as our plethora of warlocks who already do that....


And back to Rok. Rok is just... he's good at what he does. He takes all comers. He has something to handle everything but a incorporeal.
And I wasn't expecting to get cheap, reach, high arm (20+), or high speed (6+). I want these things, but I'm not expecting them. So I was happy.

Berzerk will likely be only a deterrent ("Gosh gee golly! I better not try to soften him up with a unit of Pretorian swordsmen! Sure they will each do 2 points or more but he'll eat them all!") but on some occasions you can eat infantry while pounding the big guy on the cheap.

Expect MKi trolls and your MKii trolls wil please you every time.

[machine007]

Expect MKi trolls and your MKii trolls wil please you every time.

Couldn't agree more. Every time a book comes out I just hope for something cool and Trolls never fail to deliver. If all we got the was the BE and every other faction got a 1 point model with a RAT 10 20" spray and assault, and POW over 9000, I would be still happy because I got something that looks sweet and the concept alone is pretty amazing.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Of course there are other people who were expecting an auto-disrupt, electro leap on his fists, ROF 2+ and so forth.
They were really sad about this model.
Expectations.:DmgType-Electric:


Well said sir, well said. Though all I would change on the Storm would be 2 fury on the animus and +2 melee damage rolls. Or if you want to be really super crazy and potentially awesome, +2 on ranged damage rolls - or if that would be too good because of the blasts, +2 on ranged damage rolls that directly hit, or the first damage roll of a turn or something like that. The first would be enough that he would occasionally bump into lists over the Pyre or Slag when I needed more anti-infantry. The second would be incredibly awesome and would see him pop into all sorts of lists.

That said, he is not terrible, just not likely to show up in a lot of my lists. If the model is sweet that will definitely put him over the edge into at least one or two of my lists. *Crosses fingers* please no opera singing, please no opera singing!

[machine007]

That said, he is not terrible, just not likely to show up in a lot of my lists. If the model is sweet that will definitely put him over the edge into at least one or two of my lists. *Crosses fingers* please no opera singing, please no opera singing!

The Model is in the back of Domination, and it looks really sweet.

[thegreatblah]

The Model is in the back of Domination, and it looks really sweet.

Not only does he look super sweet. It looks like a large based model on a medium base. Dude is huge