What happened with the Ogryns?

[meleemadness]

I can't see the changes while at work but how did the Ogryns change? I like those models as well as eThagrosh....I know Medium based infantry are usually not so effective but I love the look, the warspears too!

[Falk]

Both Ogrun units got cheaper - 5/8 instead of 6/9. That's it.

While this is certainly a good change it doesn't make them viable, especially compared to the newly improved Swordsmen+UA.

[alchahest]

Ogryns are humans native to high gravity worlds that the imperium accepts as non-heretical mutants, because they are eager, trainable, and most importantly, not smart enough to rebel.

as for the Ogruns, they got cheaper, and warchief effects all of the blighted ogrun now.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

as for the Ogruns, they got cheaper, and warchief effects all of the blighted ogrun now.
namely all blighted ogruns' attack rolls so he helps warspears again. unless that was another change they flew in during between the initial FT and Final.

[leo_neil316]

Wow so nobody noticed the big change?

Blighted ogrun are all terror causing now. Not abominations.

And I'd rather have the ogrun than the swordsmen and U/A now that the swordsmen lost magical attacks myself.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

Blighted ogrun are all terror causing now. Not abominations.
thats awesome

[Havock]

Is it just me or are warspears 'better' than warmongers? Sure, they don't berserk, but they only hit at one S less, get a defensive bonus (useful because they are rather slow) and have a ranged attack.

[Falk]

Blighted ogrun are all terror causing now. Not abominations.
I did notice that but forgot it quickly because I don't think it's very helpful. Well, it's not bad, but it's irrelevant for my army lists. ;)

[Defenstrator]

I don't think they're better, just different. A RAT 5 shot at short range is nothing to write home about. You need the Warchief to actually have it do something. The Warmongers are definately better at chopping through enemy troops, the Warspears are just a little more versatile. The Swordsmen have the edge on damage output, but the warmongers don't die to AOEs and spells like Chain Lightning. They all seem like solid choices now.

[jonconcarne]

Basically, the cheaper price tag and the fact that they are no longer abominations sells it for me. I'll use them in certain lists, most likely pThagrosh lists just for their staying power over the Legionnaires/Swordsmen. Granted, I'll probably take both Legionnaires and Mongers with him anyways.

[leo_neil316]

My only real problem with min swordsmen/u.a over warmongers is cleave/overtake seems a bit weaker than reach/berserk on paper.

Maybe the higher numbers will off set that, but against single wound models the higher base pow and longer engage of warmongers seems more reliable, survivability aside.

Of course this is just from looking at the files, I'll worry about it more once I've got enough legion painted to play and find out for myself (because god knows 'yes but they hate me' is a reason I tended not to take on paper units no matter how good they were before.)

[Defenstrator]

It is for killing numbers, but you have to remember that Swordsmen also hit harder than Ogrun. Swordsmen are now POW 11 weaponmaster, so while a roll of a one or two does less damage, a roll of 3 does the same, and half the time they are hitting harder. Also, Swordsmen run best in full units. That way you can maximise the spells and UA effects that help them, and can really throw down a ton of hard hitting attacks.

[leo_neil316]

Ah missed the increased POW on swordsmen. Really does look like it ends up being one of those swings and roundabouts things. I can see swordsmen being more useful with, say, Rhyas, because tide of blood means you've got a unit that can really bounce around the place.

Where as warmongers with Pthagrosh (who, with a carnivean can give spiny growth to an entire unit while upkeeping fog o' war) really get the best out of the increased toughness.

Hmmmm.

[jonconcarne]

Where as warmongers with Pthagrosh (who, with a carnivean can give spiny growth to an entire unit while upkeeping fog o' war) really get the best out of the increased toughness.


Reread the Carni's animus. It's only target friendly faction model.

Spiny Growth
Target friendly Faction model gains +2 ARM. If a warjack or warbeast hits the affected model with a melee attack, the attacking
model suffers d3 damage points immediately after the attack has been resolved unless the affected model was destroyed or
removed from play by the attack.

[Gen_eV]

Reread the Carni's animus. It's only target friendly faction model.

Indeed it is. However:
Thagrosh casts it for free on one Monger, spends 6 Fury to cast it on another 3, and the Carny pops it on the fifth.

Sure, it leaves Thags a little exposed with no Fury of his own, but at DEF15 ARM17 with concealment and effective ARM19 in melee, he should be ok if he hangs back a wee bit from the unit.

[leo_neil316]

Reread the Carni's animus. It's only target friendly faction model.


Did you have some sort of point? I don't see a problem with casting a target: friendly faction model on friendly models from my faction.

[jonconcarne]

Did you have some sort of point? I don't see a problem with casting a target: friendly faction model on friendly models from my faction.

Based on how you stated it, I thought you meant that the Carni's animus was target model/unit, which it's not. Just wanted to clarify is all. Sure you can cast Spiny Growth 5 different times, but to me, that is a fairly inefficient use of fury. My only point was to clarify that it's target model, not model/unit.

[CloudFang]

just wish that in order to get the +2 to attack rolls ogrun just had to be in the chiefs command... its tough to get line of sight to all of your unit when they get into combat and with that guy up front he usually ends up being targeted.. oh well the fluff behind it is pretty cool.

[leo_neil316]

Based on how you stated it, I thought you meant that the Carni's animus was target model/unit, which it's not. Just wanted to clarify is all. Sure you can cast Spiny Growth 5 different times, but to me, that is a fairly inefficient use of fury. My only point was to clarify that it's target model, not model/unit.

Ah right. Well that's a fair point. But sometimes you just really don't want a unit to die and the main thing is it's an -option-.

Options are power.

[belotelov]

Is it just me or are warspears 'better' than warmongers?

Agreed :) Warspears are better. In rules and in models both.

[Havock]

Agreed :) Warspears are better. In rules and in models both.

Yeah, it's just a newbie-glance but ogruns are slow, so getting in combat (especially one you want) is not as easy. Both types have reach, but the warspears 'a bit more so', their RAT sucks but their ranged attack appears to be more of a case of "at least you can try".

And right now, they are fairly cheap.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

Bring back that over the top critical they once had!!!!

[Galitlan]

Ever since I got Warspears last week they have done nothing but preform for me. They can hunt infantry ok but I think Swordsman will be better for clearing out single wound bodies.

I find having them go after larger targets is the way to go. There are many times I have had them wreck those def 10 armor 19-ish jack/beast. Even against ARM 20 you break even on average damage rolls with the throw so any high rolls are just gravy. On the charge you are doing about three damage a hit on average with the charge hits. Couple good rolls and you can trash a jack/warbeast really fast.

Even if you don't kill it most jack/beast have 2 mabey three attacks at most without spending focus/fury. So they can tie up a heavy for a turn at the very least or finish heavies.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Blighted ogrun are all terror causing now. Not abominations.

.

This mad me cry... this was a horrible change and weakened warmongers use. I really never understand why so many had such big issues with abominiation it was a great offensive ability for the warmongers, and now its gone.

:mad:

[SteakAndSpirits]

Agreed :) Warspears are better. In rules and in models both.

I would concede the point that a single point of ARM added to the Warmongers, without adjustment to cost for either Ogrun units, would level the playing field entirely.

-s&s

[Petezilla]

I kinda like the warmongers, I'm fairly uninterested in the 'spears.
I used to use the 'mongs a lot in MK1 and they where pretty cool but it was always a struggle making them hit reliably so you needed breath stealer or chiller or lylyth's feat. These guys are sound, reach and bezerk lets them tear up enemy units more reliably than the swordsmen's covertake/cleave... i think.

[grottoknight]

I have 2 units of mongers and two chiefs......i am extremely happy with mongers at 8pts for a max unit. I am indifferent with terror vs abomination as i never had a problem playing with abomination (keep away or don't take wimpy troops :)) I would like to see the Mongers back to 17 ARM as they used to be. I have played the current Mongers and find them to be amazing hold out troops and can lay a beat down without buffs with the higher MAT and still benefitting from the Chief sometimes.

If they didn't give me the ARM 17 I would still take them equally with the warspears. It seems the Warspears are too good compared to Mongers?

Lower Warspears STR by 1 and raise the mongers ARM by 1

(I won't suggest this change just from a story aspect set defense is wierd for a blighted ogrun)

[Havock]

Its more a case of mongers needing a boost in melee hitting power or armor, both are fine as is but warmongers are a bit more jack-of-all-trades, which is a good thing. Ignoring them can be unwise, yes they'll hit once every so often with their throwing spears, but it can put a dent on lights.

I'd consider them now, I wouldn't at their old pts cost.

[JingizuPL]

"Blighted ogrun are all terror causing now. Not abominations."

This mad me cry... this was a horrible change and weakened warmongers use. I really never understand why so many had such big issues with abominiation it was a great offensive ability for the warmongers, and now its gone.

:mad:
What the hell are you talking about? They didn't just take Abomination away, they replaced it with Terror. So enemy models still have to pass a CMD check or flee, but your own models aren't afraid of Warmongers anymore. It's better not worse, so stop crying :P

[Neutralyze]

the warmongers now have done nothing but perform for me. IMO Berserk is far better than assault. each game i that one warmonger into a unit while having LOS to a chief and that unit is half dead

warspears are OK with Pthags since he can up their str and they can also do a pow 15 assault. the only issue is their rat 5 which goes up to 7 with the chief.

[Havock]

Ah, yeah, forgot berserk. Then again, berserk can cut both ways.

[Galitlan]

I don't find the low rat on the warspears to hurt them alot. Honestly I rarely ever take them against anything over DEF 12. Most of the time they are going against other heavy infantry or jack/beasts. I have had them assault menoth jacks and just murder them on the charge. With 5 pow13 attacks plus 5 boosted pow13 attacks against ARM19 can put alot of hurt down. Plus they are almost all DEF10 so even your ranged attacks have a good chance to hit. Just need a couple of really good rolls and they can even put a decent dent into Kahdor jacks.

I usally run mine out on their own since most caster give them little help if any. I charge these guys into my opponates line and let them cause havoc. In playing I have found warspears to be much more reliable for the fact I don't have to worry about them killing my own stuff.

[Neutralyze]

I don't find the low rat on the warspears to hurt them alot. Honestly I rarely ever take them against anything over DEF 12. Most of the time they are going against other heavy infantry or jack/beasts. I have had them assault menoth jacks and just murder them on the charge. With 5 pow13 attacks plus 5 boosted pow13 attacks against ARM19 can put alot of hurt down. Plus they are almost all DEF10 so even your ranged attacks have a good chance to hit. Just need a couple of really good rolls and they can even put a decent dent into Kahdor jacks.

I usally run mine out on their own since most caster give them little help if any. I charge these guys into my opponates line and let them cause havoc. In playing I have found warspears to be much more reliable for the fact I don't have to worry about them killing my own stuff.


warspears at rat 5 on defense 12 hit on average and hit defense 10 on below average. at pow 12 on 19 they squeeze one pt through on each throw and do4-5 damage per charge attack on average. with Pthags this is increased to pow 15 which is nice as well.

berserk is not a double edged sword with the warcheif Havock.

[Galitlan]

warspears at rat 5 on defense 12 hit on average and hit defense 10 on below average. at pow 12 on 19 they squeeze one pt through on each throw and do4-5 damage per charge attack on average. with Pthags this is increased to pow 15 which is nice as well.

berserk is not a double edged sword with the warcheif Havock.

I would asume you mean pow13 but thats my point. Warmongers are better for infantry kill with beserk.

pThags with his STR buff and pLylyth with Parasite can make warspears deadly to most low DEF high ARM targets. They are more of a nutcracker unit not a lawnmower.

[ColdYinTiger]

Don't forget, medium bases stop tramples.