New player - Q on Trenchers and list building

[Waaargh]

Greeting, Cygnarian officers and field commanders.

I have been interesting in starting up a Warmachine faction for playing, which is why I address you with this post. There are several reasons for this, I'd like to try the Warmachine mechanics, I am interested in seeing if this system is really more powerful than the Hordes, and amongst the factions Cygnar seems most interesting with it's Victorian aesthetics in form of Trenchers and warjacks. For a play style I'd like to field a force that concentrates on early skirmishes with the enemy, and vie for control of the flanks to make a mid to endgame pincher maneuver. My main opponent is Khador, so the force I field will have to be able to start interesting games with them (interesting opposed to run them over). What I'll call a good game, at this point, is a game where the forces are matched even, and take some lumbs out of each other.

In particular I think about a Great War-gone-steampunk or Victorian-england-with-steampunk army consisting of Trenchers with warjacks, supported by some Gun Mages in some form to oil the warmachine, so to speak (I so like to blow through the Wind Wall) and Rangers, and perhaps Sword Knights (a hopelessly romantic idea of war being won in heroic close combat, and Cygnar has some of those units - I once saw a movie about First World War where the French sent forward armoured troops, meant for bloody close combat in trenches, just to be murdered on the open field by machine guns). I'd like to lead with pStryker or Caine. My preferred playstyle would be to vie for control through light skirmishes and attacking the flanks. I want a moving army, and not a static army that just shoots. Do you think it would give interesting battles or is the idea silly when aiming for Good Games?

Furthermore I'd like to ask for advice on how to a make a 35 point army to buy, with the above type of force in mind. In other words getting as little superficial models as possible and thereby saving me from spending more than needed.

I am aware the FoW book is just around the corner, and the "puplic" won't be able to see it for another week or so. Still, there have been spoilers on the new trencher support (hurray) and tiered lists (hurray) and you guys know a lot about Cygnar already, so can probably tell me if bringing some of the new stuff would be good for what I seek, or not, and if the tiered lists is what I am looking for.

Thank you for reading, and I hope you will help me in my seach for information.

[Angelus]

Welcome to the fold Waaargh!

First of all, thanks for letting us know the type of game you'd like to play, it really makes recommendations easier!

For 35 points you probably won't be able to get all of the elements you referenced in your post, but perhaps we can get a few of the more important.

First off, the Cygnar battlebox might be a good investment for you. In it you get Stryker (who you mentioned specifically), an Ironclad, a Lancer, and a Charger. The Ironclad is a great cheap heavy (good for 35 pt games), the Lancer gives you the arc node that pStryker enjoys, and the Charger is a great shooty support jack.

Since you're interested in a trench warfare theme, Trenchers are a good buy. They can be used as a flanking force to give you a pincer manuever late game. A Journeyman Warcaster is also good for new players, and he can Arcane Shield a heavy jack or caster, and give his spare focus to a jack, preferably a ranged jack such as the Charger.

I'd also recommend the Black 13th, as they are a great unit for dealing with Stealth, picking off solos, and they also have a handy AOE for massed infantry.

After that it's all a matter of preference, and I definitely recommend playing the models that you want to play, rather than what anyone tells you is good. Of course if you want to play very competitively, we can tell you how to do that too ;).

One more note. I would check out the FoW: Cygnar book this week, as the spoilers for pStryker's tier list sound like the kind of build you're looking for.

Good luck!

[Angelus]

Commander Coleman Stryker
-Lancer
-Ironclad
-Squire
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team
Trencher Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts)
-Trencher Infantry Officer & Sniper
Captain Arlan Strangewayes
Journeyman Warcaster
-Charger

This isn't an ultra-conpetitive list or anything, just something I threw together thinking about your request. The Trenchers can get Snipe from Stryker and manuever around the flank. The Ironclad goes up the middle to deal with any heavy threats. Black 13th hunt solos and look for massed infantry. The Lancer is there for arcing EQ. Arlan can give the IC Evasive, or free up a focus for Stryker. The Squire does it's thing, and the Charger can hunt non-Stealth solos or harder targets with boosts.

You could conceivably swap in a merc like Harlan Versh, or Rupert instead of Arlan. But this way you'd get alot of mileage out of your initial purchases, as I use every model mentioned regularly, minus my Trenchers.

[knight_actual]

Before the nay sayers get to you, I'd like to put my 2 cents in on the topic of Trencher Chaingunners.

They look awesome.
3" aoe is good denial for anything that dies to pow 10.
if both of them are online, you get d3+3 shots at RAT7 out to range 10 - not bad.
durable as heck for an artillery piece.
thematic as hell for the covering fire.

but you need 2 of them - 1 isn't enough to deny sufficient frontage.

[brotherscott]

Trenchers are the reason I got into Cygnar, and pretty much what I run when I play Cygnar.

Just a quick 35 point list, much like PG_Rogue4525 above-

Stryker
-Ironclad
-Lancer
-Charger
Journeyman Warcaster
Maxwell Finn
Trencher infantry (10)
+Officer & Sniper
+Rifle Grenadiers (3)
Trencher Chain Gun

Merely suggestions and opinion. This is the battle box plus, and if you are looking at Trenchers, this can form a solid foundation to expand from.
The Journayman is capable of running 'jacks, so that is an option. He also is useful for casting spells, notably Arcane Shield, on anything that needs some extra armor (like Trenchers).

Some players like Chain Guns, others don't. They are one of the few Light Artillery units I take. Great for holding a flank, or daring your opponent to get close to them.

Finn makes the Trenchers better, but he needs some protection as he leads from the front, and can be a priority target for your opponent.

I believe the Forces of Warmachine: Cygnar is slated to release on Wednesday, so it shouldn't be too long before you can take a look through the pages and see how you want to build your army.

Go with the models that appeal to you, as it is much more fun to put the ones you like on the table and use them.

Welcome aboard! (Oh, yeah, and don't mind my merc shield, I play many factions and enjoy them all).

[Waaargh]

Wow, nice. That's some fast replies.

For a competitive version how would that look? And does the Trenchers still have a spot there (I'll hate to get my hopes up for something just to find out I aimed for the wrong target)?

[brotherscott]

When you decide to take on Trenchers, you dedicate to playing a certain way. I don't know that I can accurately describe that here, but I will try to be brief.

There is a point in the agem that you can switch gears from a mostly defensive to an aggressive play style. If you can catch your opponent off guard, you have an advantage.

I am a fan of 2 Chain Guns as well, keeping them about 20" apart covers the Infantry and your flanks.

I think the real beauty of the Trenchers (and Warmachine as a whole) is that you can change out warcasters and get a different game play. Stryker and Trenchers works different from Haley and Trenchers, who work differently with Seige or any of the other warcasters, all without changing the core of your army.

For AoE spam (since the Rifle Grenadier Weapon Attachment is already there for 3), add in Grenadier warjacks. Positioned well, two can produce 6 3" AoEs. With the Rifle Grenadiers, that makes 9 AoEs, capable of putting the hurt on enemy infantry.

Of course, learning the ropes of the game and the ins and outs of your own army will help make for competitive play. Not a lot of folks put a lot of stock in teh backbone of the army, until they underestimate the player on the other side.

[Waaargh]

Another one...

Can the above work with the Seige's "Big Guns" theme list? Well obviously there will be no Gun Mages in any form, but perhaps others can take their mobile role and deal with Wind Wall.

REQUIREMENTS:
Warjacks - Cyg non-char
Units - Field Mechs, Rangers, Trencher units
Solos - Junior, Trencher solos

T1 - Only models above
T2 - 3+ Trencher weapon crew units
T3 - 2+ Trencher commando and/or infantry units
T4 - 2+ Defender jacks

BENEFITS:
T1 - Trencher Infantry and Commando Unit cost -1. FA for Cannon and Chain Gun increases +1 for each Trencher and Commando Unit
T2 - Free Master Gunner, doesnt count towards FA
T3 - For each Trencher and or commando unit place a 3" smoke AOE anywhere within 20" of your table edge. They leave play after the first round.
T4 - Heavy warjacks gain advanced move.

[knight_actual]

Benefits are kinda meh- you're sacreficing alot in the form of gobber and squire for them. at tier 3, you are getting a benefit of 2 extra points, a free master gunner, and perhaps 2 smoke pies. Assuming that you dont have more than 2 units of trenchers/commandos that is.

I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it.

[leo_neil316]

Benefits are kinda meh- you're sacreficing alot in the form of gobber and squire for them. at tier 3, you are getting a benefit of 2 extra points, a free master gunner, and perhaps 2 smoke pies. Assuming that you dont have more than 2 units of trenchers/commandos that is.

I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it.

The decreased trencher costs and free gunner, coupled with the increased FA of the chainguns might be interesting though.

Two trencher units basically come with a free chaingun for the first teir benefit, and three chain guns lets you drop quite a field of denial.

That's 16 points so far, depending on what you need for the teirs (if anyones got them) you'll pick up your free +2 to hit with seige.... I mean master gunner, two defenders (18), that's 34 points.

Siege has 5 jack points, so that leaves you with six left, some rangers are probably a good choice, or j.r for ARM 20 seige or some commandos etc.

Trenchers are a decent enough hybrid unit, and the chainguns suppression will take care of most light infantry, leaving you to pick on heavier things (medium toughness targets for trencher CRA's, defenders for the big stuff).

I dunno, I'd be willing to give it a good hard try. And I usually hate going into a fight without atleast one dedicated melee warjack and unit (or stormblades and clad which are close enough.)

[snowydude]

if you want a more cinematic game because regular trenchers tend to be sit and wait for the enemy then charge you might want to take more trench commandos then regular trenchers since they can charge up and pop 1 wound shield walls that khador seems to love so much. their guys will promptly cut through the comandos the turn after but hey thats what you're going for right? 2 models left after both sides are finished.



anywhere here's a more heated battle then a strategic command list
Points: 31 or so
Lord Commander Stryker (*6pts)
* Lancer (6pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
Trencher Cannon (3pts)
Trencher Chaingun Crew (2pts)
Trencher Chaingun Crew (2pts)
Trencher Commandos (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
Trencher Commandos (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
Captain Maxwell Finn (3pts)
Trencher Master Gunner (?pts)

[conador2]

First of all, I'd just like to note, that a fully painted army of all the different trencher units looks spectacular. They are the only major chunk of my army I have gotten around to, which I am both glad about and proud of. Secondly, the fact that the information you dropped regarding the list you were looking for was a good 1/2 flavour. I like this.

My forcebook should arrive this afternoon with all the tiers and stats for new units (rahter than the jumbled mess of spoilers) and I'll see if theres anything in there that can help you.

Now as much as I love the chaingun model, and don't mind how it works, buying three might not be viable. You could alternatively drop some money/points into a Cyclone which would give you two more supression AoEs, totalling three. More points, but probably more versatility. Also, beautiful looking 'jack.

Not sure whether grenadiers are useful in MK II, but I know mine is painted in the trencher scheme and makes the squad look a little more complete. (Though this isn't useful when dice are rolling.)

I'll think on it, and drop some more when Sloan deliveres my Forces book.

[Gorbad]

To me it sounds like the Trencher Commandos would be more something for you rather than the normal trencher unit. The Commandos will be much more aggressive and going out there to turn a flank or something. The normal unit tend to more be a line holding/blocking shooting unit.

As for Sieges theme list. If you want an army of all Trenchers the first tier doesn't look bad, but I don't think I'd go for anything more than that. Not if we are doing a benefit vs. restriction decision at least. If you just like the theme go nuts, but it doesn't really seem all that impressive.

[bouncymischa]

Eh, the Trenchers with the UA can be perfectly mobile -- when I take my Trenchers, I'm using Cautious Advance nearly every turn. Sure, I don't get the aiming bonus, but with Rangers and/or Finn I rarely need to. Trenchers can also be a little more flexible, as they can CRA against armored targets, while Commandos are pretty purely anti-infantry.

Still, a combination of both would probably be a pretty good idea. If anything, I can envision using the Trenchers to hold a line while the Commandos roll up a flank, and then once the enemy is distracted with the Commandos, the Trenchers can go for a bayonet charge... :P

[Waaargh]

Excuse me for asking but what is the purpose of the Commandos?


Trencher Commandos:

Stats of Trenchers +1 MAT, 6/10 pts

POW 9 knives, POW 10, RNG 10 guns, POW 12, RNG 6 AOE 3 Grenades (Grenades have Cumbersome)

Anatomical Precision, Advanced Deploy, Stealth

They hit rather well, and exceptionally good when led by Finn, they are sure to damage targets with one box, and they have Stealth.

Compared to the the Trencher Infantry hit ok, and good when led by Finn. These guys haven't got Anatomical Strike but with assault they will take down most things they assault, targets that have one box of course. They can advance with Dig In, which makes most attacks miss them, but they only go forward 6" compared to the Commandos who can run.

with my untrained eye Trencher Infantry seems like the most useful unit, while some small group of Commandos can act as a flanking unit.


Addendum:

A Siege list with...

Siege (+5 WP)
Defender (9)
10 Trencher Infantry (9)
6 Commandos (5/6?)
6 Rangers (5)
Chaingun (2)
Chaingun (2)
Chaingun (2) OR Cannon (3)
Master Gunner (free)
Maxwell Finn (3)
A few points left

...seems like a quite decent list, right?

EDIT:


AD, Commander, Special Action Artillerist, Special Action Close Fire protects target friendly faction model from blast damage, Dig In
has a scatter gun and a knife
The Master Gunner seems like the perfect match for the Grenadier, adding his bonus to three shots since it's one model that fires them all. So should that go into the list too, or should I not strive to get him for free?

[brotherscott]

Commandos are pretty much a flanking force. With Stealth they can usually get up near the fight. They support the Trencher Infantry pretty well, and will allow them to get into position and control the middle of the table.

With FA:2 you could run two minimum units, one up each flank. Of course, you are dedicated to playing that way, and have financially invested in two full units of Commandos.

[conador2]

Also, Master gunner is better than a lot of people have been giving him credit for. His abilities aren't bad, but in addition he has a high power spray (Well, for Cygnar at least.) It doesn't look like he is a 'trencher solo' though so he won't benefit from Finn unless this is an oversite that is later fixed.

[Defenstrator]

You might also consider some options on the merc front. When it comes to trench action Gorman Di Wolf is about as thematic as you can get, and is a solid model to boot. Herne and Jonne can supply some solid AOE action, and the Piper can give some needed durability to your large trencher unit while staying safely behind the lines..

[thesavage]

Also, Master gunner is better than a lot of people have been giving him credit for. His abilities aren't bad, but in addition he has a high power spray (Well, for Cygnar at least.) It doesn't look like he is a 'trencher solo' though so he won't benefit from Finn unless this is an oversite that is later fixed.

Got the forces book today, and yes, the Master Gunner is a solo. In any case, Finn's wording on Veteran Leader [Trencher] is "Friendly Trencher trooper models gain +2 to attack rolls while this model is in their LOS." Master Gunner is a Trencher trooper, so he gets this ability as well.

I think he looks really nice for his ability to make the Trencher Cannon Crew particularly awesome. He can make it hit just about anything, and if he can't hit it (if they have stealth for example) he can reroll the direction AND distance of deviation. Imagine how nasty that would be against . . . oh I dunno, how about those pesky elves?

This is why I don't see what is so great about the Trencher Chaingun, besides it looking cooler than the cannon. The cannon has: better range, better power and has a chance to be very accurate with the Master Gunner. Sure, it may be more expensive than the chaingun, but you do get another grunt.

The only thing the chaingun seems to have going for it is that you can kill a lot of very closely packed together infantry (within 2 inches). But if someone is already doing that, why not just blast them from farther away with an AoE?

I'm sorry, I would really like to think that the chaingun is good . . . but I just don't see it. This is a shame since we just came out with new rules.

[bouncymischa]

You typically take the Chaingun for Covering Fire, to keep pesky light infantry away from your Trenchers. Although I've found since my TCGs are normally a bit behind the front line, once the front line collapses the Chaingun is in an excellent position to riddle the attackers with bullets as a counterattack.

[thesavage]

Just had an idea as to how to make the chaingun good. As someone said, take 2 of them, but also have a unit of longgunners in the back, using covering fire as well. That way, your opponent would really have to think about charging at you.

Hmm . . . I just might have to get longgunners after all.

[Waaargh]

Added some to my last post (added there for easy of reading).

[conador2]

Between chainguns, longunners and cyclones, that represents a lot of covering fire. Cyclone can drop two, in addition to the usefullness of 2d3 pow 12s if he decides not to.