Journeyman Nerf

[AJ the Ronin]

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=8414


I can't believe no one has mentioned this. The Infernal are checking but it looks like Jr can't buy additional attacks or boost the attack and damage rolls.

Discuss.

[Dino-Czar]

It's been mentioned. I'm going to keep boosting/buying attacks until someone stops me, end of story.

[The.Rogue.Gunslinger]

if this is true, it goes the same for the minion warlocks because I believe that it is missing in their cards as well. I'm hoping JR. can boost, or else hes just a arcane shield upkeeping solo and once and awhile jack handler.

[Professor Lust]

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=8414


I can't believe no one has mentioned this. The Infernal are checking but it looks like Jr can't buy additional attacks or boost the attack and damage rolls.

Discuss.

This is one of those cases where RAW does not equal what PP intends.

Jr is a "mini-caster"

[AJ the Ronin]

This is one of those cases where RAW does not equal what PP intends.

Jr is a "mini-caster"
Do we know that for sure?

It wouldn't be the first time PP rule against "intention" to keep with RAW.

[whats82]

Still not worried.

[Professor Lust]

Still not worried.

Same.

12345

[mrhuettel]

meh.

tomorrow evening, jr. will take double-boosted potshots at anything that is within 12" - a jwc is just too expensive to run around camping two focus without ever hitting anything (neither his MAT, his RAT or his FOC are acceptable), this has to be fixed and clarified... come on, infernals!

[PBear]

Still not worried.
Ditto. This is a typo/oversight.

[Demeritus]

I cannot see them ruling against Jr. on this one. I think this is an oversight but we'll see. I'd be very surprised if he couldn't spend focus to boost rolls or buy extra attacks. The shakeoff thing could go either way imo.

[basicbob]

I don't think that the past seven years of gaming Jr. as a warcaster light will be overturned.

[knight_actual]

not being able to buy/boost would hurt Jr. a bit, but what it would really hurt are minion locs

[ZenBattleLust]

DOOOOM!

But seriously, the amount of time it's taking for an infernal to post something official is a very good sign as to which way this will go. It doesn't take very long to type in "play the rule as written." It takes much longer to come up with the proper errata / decide whether they want Jr. to have shake effects or not / etc.

[Sharp]

As far as I can tell, they introduced more rules for warcasters (expanded sections and put rules under their own heading), then essentially copied the special rules box for Jr. from the MkI card to the MkII card without him gaining the new rules. That's what it seemed like, but I'm in class right now, so I can't check it right now. I'll check it later.

[phreaker187]

Definite oversight on the rules department. I think pretty much every WM player will be very surprised if he can't boost. My PG told me to play it like MKI so I am happy to oblige. :)

[Mr.B]

"Still not bovered"

[Rasteel]

How did they rule on junior's boosting at templecon tournaments?

[Killionaire]

It's pretty obvious that Junior's always been intended to be able to do focus-y things with focus such as boosting and buying. Why else have it?

It's going to be fixed.

I mean, rules as written... Greylords don't have abilities. But yet give Eiryss three spells :P

[oninofro]

I don't think that the past seven years of gaming Jr. as a warcaster light will be overturned.

Recently at one of the local game stores two of my fellow gamers delighted in the idea that since shake off and boosting weren't listed as [Boldface] traits on the card the JWC therefore cannot do these things. This resulted in logic bombs being thrown around because "well it doesn't say..." so this issue of semantics hinges on intent of publication and potentially an error in terms of typesetting for a document and/or stat card and that NEVER happens... :rolleyes:

[jmsetzer]

No nerf, folks. Ruling in the rules forum says all the focus: something effects are sub-cats of Focus Manipulation ability and that the relationship isn't obvious in the text due to an editing error.

Jr. can boost, buy extra attacks, and shake.

[ColdYinTiger]

Yeah, I think its more of a thought that because it is a caster just like minion locks are locks, that they assume people would treat them as such. You don't have written on every caster card that they can boost to hit and buy attacks.

[AxeHappy]

Yeah the thread over in the rules got locked so just ignore this entire conversation there was nothing to see!

[snowydude]

I exhibit joy for those of you who actually use him. since i almost always do not

[Yaum]

I'm just glad this is over. It was pretty obvious and unimportant really, but you never know when this could sneak up on you.

I saw someone pulling this off to a fellow Blue at Templecon. And it was a friendly game...
"You know Junior can't boost right ? It's not on his card". Wow. Really ? Way to go Mr Rule Lawyer

[Cygnarite]

No nerf, folks. Ruling in the rules forum says all the focus: something effects are sub-cats of Focus Manipulation ability and that the relationship isn't obvious in the text due to an editing error.

Jr. can boost, buy extra attacks, and shake.
Of course he can! The only people who thought otherwise were rules lawyers who thought that PP would make monumental rules changes without making it blatantly obvious (like Putting in the Tactical tip : Note, junior cant do this this and this because he doesnt have these abilities).
The same goes for warlock transfers and alexia's damage reduction via sac'ing risen - PP did not completely overhaul rules that worked into abominations without making it perfectly clear on the card simply because the rules are a bit ambiguously worded.
(note this rudeness isn't aimed at you, it's aimed at the people who endlessly argue downright silly rules because "That's how it appears on the card")

[jmsetzer]

No offense taken, I just saw the ruling and was happy to help spread the word and put the issue to bed. I would have played with it either way, depending on the ruling of the local PG'er.

[Ysthrall]

Huzzah, finally... ANy chance of a link to the rules forum thread?

or, you know, I could go get it myself....

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=8414&page=3

[Sirit1337]

HALLELUJAH! Praise Morrow and pass the electro-imbued ammunition!
Or: Focus? She hardly knows us! (Couldn't help myself)

[AJ the Ronin]

Glad to know we still have that POW 12 boostable damage roll.

Bad for the editing guy that screw up there.

[oninofro]

Do we know that for sure?

It wouldn't be the first time PP rule against "intention" to keep with RAW.

True. It also means that I can include hammersmiths in my all ranged 'jack lists...

The salient issue being there is a (potential) discrepancy between the card and the main rulebook in terms of understanding, ability and function. No one should be surprised by this potentiality for two reasons:
1) This has happened before where cards do not match up with books.
2) The Privateer Press staff are human. Therefore their editing/type setting staff are human. As humans, they are not infallible.

If the issue were as straightforward as the JWC-naysayers believe, PP would likely have said, almost immediately, "You are correct".
If the issue were as straightforward as the Pro-JWC'ers believe, PP would have likely said, almost immediately, "That is a publishing error".

Apparently the company needs time to assess the situation to determine how the JWC is to line up when compared to in-faction alternatives and out of faction contemporaries.

I'm inclined to believe, bias acknowledged, by virtue of the model's ability to generate focus and allocate focus, the granted effects/uses of focus on a model with such a trait/indicator would hold as understood (I'll call this "being part of Privateer Press - Warmachine Social Conventions"). Otherwise it potentially creates a logic/rules inconsistency resulting in future examinations taking place on a similar "case by case" basis; counter to a central idea behind MKII.

My statements however can simply be trumped by the company saying "Nope. We're right and you have no idea what we are thinking nor the systems of logic involved in them" which would be fair because I'm not telepathic nor do I communicate with them on any meaningful level.

Regardless, until the issue is resolved, I'm working from the assumption the JWC functions as generally understood in the past. I will inform my opponents of this before the game begins and if they don't like it, they can say so politely. If they get snippy, I'll break out a "But I hate facing that!!!!" list and strip all joy from their gaming experience. :)

Edit: Opps... that's what I get for not reading through all threads and all forums!! Well silly me! Either way, the statements I made above would hold as such.

[Spooker]

Good news.
this is the way i have always played Junior. And he has finished off warcasters
with boosted hand cannon shots, so I would have hated to lose that ability.

Take care.

[PPS_DC]

I'm just glad this is over. It was pretty obvious and unimportant really, but you never know when this could sneak up on you.

I saw someone pulling this off to a fellow Blue at Templecon. And it was a friendly game...
"You know Junior can't boost right ? It's not on his card". Wow. Really ? Way to go Mr Rule Lawyer

Ugh. Sorry to hear that.

I ruled on it (and explained the Prime paragraph order mixup) on Thursday night so I believe all the judges were on the same page. So any official judging on the subject should have been accurate for Templecon.

[AJ the Ronin]

True. It also means that I can include hammersmiths in my all ranged 'jack lists...

The salient issue being there is a (potential) discrepancy between the card and the main rulebook in terms of understanding, ability and function. No one should be surprised by this potentiality for two reasons:
1) This has happened before where cards do not match up with books.
2) The Privateer Press staff are human. Therefore their editing/type setting staff are human. As humans, they are not infallible.

If the issue were as straightforward as the JWC-naysayers believe, PP would likely have said, almost immediately, "You are correct".
If the issue were as straightforward as the Pro-JWC'ers believe, PP would have likely said, almost immediately, "That is a publishing error".

Apparently the company needs time to assess the situation to determine how the JWC is to line up when compared to in-faction alternatives and out of faction contemporaries.

I'm inclined to believe, bias acknowledged, by virtue of the model's ability to generate focus and allocate focus, the granted effects/uses of focus on a model with such a trait/indicator would hold as understood (I'll call this "being part of Privateer Press - Warmachine Social Conventions"). Otherwise it potentially creates a logic/rules inconsistency resulting in future examinations taking place on a similar "case by case" basis; counter to a central idea behind MKII.

My statements however can simply be trumped by the company saying "Nope. We're right and you have no idea what we are thinking nor the systems of logic involved in them" which would be fair because I'm not telepathic nor do I communicate with them on any meaningful level.

Regardless, until the issue is resolved, I'm working from the assumption the JWC functions as generally understood in the past. I will inform my opponents of this before the game begins and if they don't like it, they can say so politely. If they get snippy, I'll break out a "But I hate facing that!!!!" list and strip all joy from their gaming experience. :)

Edit: Opps... that's what I get for not reading through all threads and all forums!! Well silly me! Either way, the statements I made above would hold as such.

tl;dr (joking :P)

Thing is with 7 years doing this, a "field test" to find this kind of mistakes and the guts to handle so many projects at the same time you would expect them to not make this kind of mistakes.

Human or not they pride themselves for making quality products. They screw up. Someone while doing the layout screw up. It is not the first time it happens, remember the sticker in Superiority? You will hope the errors wold be less but they are not. The range weapon on the Hammersmith. The Eirrys entry on the Khadoran card. The 2d6 charge for Cavalry. The journeyman.

For a company that pride itself on quality they keep screwing up the easy ones.

Typos, man my first language is not English, I hardly notice those but when the rules are not clear (or are clear but actually are meant to be played by the how they are "supposed" to be played not how they read) then they need to take a step back and ask themselves why these things are still happening.

Keep in mind that the Hammersmith mistake may be confusing to a player that don't visit the forum. After all a 'jack do not need to have a visible range weapon to make range attacks (case in point the Thunderhead).

Anyways I'm happy Jr can boost his POW 12 handcannon. This was an unhappy week for him. :)

[Peregrine]

Thank you, Oh Great Infernals that Be, for without this ruling, my Jr. would no longer be the second most feared model on my side of the table...right after my Charger. XD

-edit- typo

[phreaker187]

Good job on a ruling that we all know was wrong. I would hate to be the editor that caused that big fuss though.

[PBear]

I'm just glad this is over. It was pretty obvious and unimportant really, but you never know when this could sneak up on you.

I saw someone pulling this off to a fellow Blue at Templecon. And it was a friendly game...
"You know Junior can't boost right ? It's not on his card". Wow. Really ? Way to go Mr Rule Lawyer
That was my opponent. I didn't want to argue rules in an Eternal War game, so I just rolled with it and beat him anyway. :)

Glad to know it's been officially fixed.


Ugh. Sorry to hear that.

I ruled on it (and explained the Prime paragraph order mixup) on Thursday night so I believe all the judges were on the same page. So any official judging on the subject should have been accurate for Templecon.
Whoops, wish I'd known that. I didn't include JWC in any lists because I didn't want to deal with any rules issues.

[Yaum]

What ? You mean I was standing next to the one and only PBEAR and I didn't even had a clue !?! Damn ! Worst is, since I was standing next to you, I can't even recvall your face...all I can remember is that other guy.

Fail.