Shredderspam

[Necra-Chi]

There's a bit of talk about shredder cost, spamming it, and the power of the beast casters. I thought I'd post up a list to get people's thoughts going about what we are actually potentially dealing with. How would you deal with this? How would you change anything about the models involved to make it better worse etc?

E-Thagrosh
Typhon
Carnivean
2 Forsaken
2 Shepherds
12 Shredders

[Mezzanine]

Like how would we deal with that list? I'd imagine most Saeryn lists would just own it for free due to the turn of melee immunity and the likelihood of Angels. Striders with UA bushwacking, Deathstalkers and Incubi placements should give the list troubles.

And I'm not sure if it would be better, but having 8 Shredders and 4 Harriers might be more fun.

[Necra-Chi]

Saeryn's feat is for battlegroup only now and the list can dish out 7 sprays, 3 of which are SP 10, with manifest destiny running.

Most of your other solutions die to the combination of manifest destiny, rabid and dragonstorm. Rabid adds to speed now so I think it works on the feat, as does manifest destiny. Shredder missiles with this combo were badass in Mk1, now they're even better. The point of the shredder portion of this army (the rest being already enough to kill a hell fo a lot of stuff and do assassinations) is that the above combo will destroy the opponent's ability to fight back and maybe even get an assassination, and so it doesn't really matter if the whole thing implodes under the weight of its fury load after that. You might still even get some frenzies against enemy, and you still have a bunch of hard to shake models in your face.

There isn't much a harrier can do that shredders can't do better with this combo. Its worthy of consideration for me though because I already have 4 harriers and only 4 shredders, not that I want to actually run this list though.

[Mezzanine]

The problem with EThag is that PP is under the assumption that specialization should equate to reduced cost (Manifest Destiny compared to Signs and Portents) and increased performance (Dragon Storm compared to eStryker's feat). The only way that appears to be justified is if you have warbeast hosers in play. Otherwise, he's like eStryker on steroids if he just plays with all warbeasts.

[blitzmonkey]

The problem with EThag is that PP is under the assumption that specialization should equate to reduced cost (Manifest Destiny compared to Signs and Portents) and increased performance (Dragon Storm compared to eStryker's feat). The only way that appears to be justified is if you have warbeast hosers in play. Otherwise, he's like eStryker on steroids if he just plays with all warbeasts.


Yes, but thus far, I am finding that playing all warbeasts is not actually the better idea. Having a death stalker or two with a unit is actually more tactically sound imo.

[dorsai2008]

I want the shredder spam to work. The effectiveness of the shredder under rabid and Feat has been well noted.

I feel Ethag offers a lot of defence on the first turn what with Tenacity, spiny growth, Excessive healing and dragon blood. I think the protector would add to that to ensure relative safety before the army becomes completely engaged.

The mass of shredders should be used to best effect, full fury to get them engaged. blocking enemy charge lanes, and weakening foes. Relying on forsaken and dead shredders to manage the excess fury.

Perhaps a Angelius in there would be beneficial for the second wave - flying over shredder lines.

Typhon would then be reserved to clear the debris of enemy and hopefully set up a run for Ethag.

[Karam]

I'm trying to prove the effectiveness of this on a 50pt list with vayl. And I find its even more effective as you go up in points. Never changing the beasts of the list. And adding more solo/troops who don't require additional fury management. And you loose very little when you have to let a shredder frenzy into enemy lines. IMHO a few shredders should be frenzying every turn after you engage as the alpha strike hurts and then on all you loose is 2 fully boosted attacks for 1 fully boosted attack. With the large choice of shredders to choose from I have been able to sic frenzied shredders at the enemy never getting hit myself.

We are in the unique position of having both the models(lesser warbeasts) and the fury management to pull this kind of list off. And seeing your shredder machine frantically grinding through the enemy is worth it. Ill have to do more testing though before I'm really comfortable with it though.

The greatest defence Against it I faced was moshar with sunhammer. And I realized I had to keep the shredders moving or I let him dictate my game and I lose. So the poor shredders marched in and strangely I only lost two in this game. Again will need more testing but I haven't found a better counter to the list.

[amphoterik]

I think shredderspam is still viable to an extent, but without pack mentality, you lose the really good numbers. I miss it, but I can see why it was taken out. My 8th shredder had an effective mat of 12 with a P+S of 17...

[Angelust]

How do you deal with jack heavy armies that can focus-kill your carni or typhon? Specifically things like Karchev or Vlad, who will almost surely get the charge off.


Also, is there any incarnation of this in 35 pts?

[JaggedToothGrin]

yeah, the biggest problem with shredderswarms is they cant hurt high armour stuff much anymore. for instance, MoW shocktroopers or Cetrati laugh at them. (it was contemplating shredderspam vs MoW when i decided to try raekspam)
but atleast the new frenzy rules mean i can run it again. i'll probably try shredders out later this week

[Necra-Chi]

Good point. Raek > 2 shredders?

JTG can you post up your proposed raek list? Combining them with Manifest destiny and hopping over the enemy army before MD fueled dragonstorm attacks seems nasty.

[JaggedToothGrin]

my current absurdlist at 50 points is:
eThaggy
Typhon
Seraph
7 Raeks
Shredder
2 Shepards
Swamp Gobbers

the theory behind the list is that typhon goes off and does his level best to kill everything in sight, but on the deathturn, you have eThaggy who MDs, feats, and scourges caster if possible. then raeks advance at caster, if need be, leap past everything, and just start making attacks. i did the maths, assuming two raeks can make it into melee without leaping, and assuming you keep everything at reach range (so no biting) the list can, without sprays or strafe, drop up to 30 autohitting pow12's onto a caster.
add in everything else, and you can be dishing out 5 sprays and d6+1 seraph shots in the turn in the process
you can also, if you really need to, have a combined threat range of 23" per raek (or, i they're hiding from the front, 21" including a leap midway) although obviously you lose out some large number of attacks for this, on a furyless warlock who thinks they're safe 20" away, however, it may well be worth it.

combine that with stealth, reach, and shadowstalk (which i have decided, is basically like the old Cat And Mouse Games, all the time) and the list seems pretty horrifying

plus of course, typhon is entirely capable of killing whatever he feels like on his own. (so far, the raeks havent actually needed to do their thing to kill, its just been there as a secondary mega-hammer. in one game, typhon killed BoK+focus vlad in two hits, in the other, kaya tried to kill eThaggy and failed, but i ran the raek numbers anyway, and even typhonless, or with thaggy not taking a swing, the raeks killed incredible face)

in the kaya game, typhon bullied kaya a bit (two sprays on one turn, next turn, two more sprays and then tossed a warpwolf onto her) and so she transfered a bunch of hits here and there onto her beasts, gnarlhorn took a minorish transfer, and was charged by 2 raeks, which killed him before the second raek had to start buying attacks.

raeks are entirely willing to lay down some serious beatings. (i am currently thinking they should lose a point of mat, probably a point of speed, gain prey, and cost a point more. 4 points is scary-cheap)

[Necra-Chi]

Shouldn't you have bone grinders for 10" scourge?

[JaggedToothGrin]

initially i went with a shredder for tenacity, but then i never used it, went with excessive healing each time. so yeah, i really would want the grinders in there. although, grinders are really easy to snipe out now that they cant protect the officer, and obviously they're afraid of thaggy.
you could also drop the seraph for two more raeks, but i figure 7 is enough (it will either do the job, or not, and its hard to get 2 more into melee range. plus, i can name them after the dwarves) and the combination of strafe and slipstream where too valuable to pass up

it really does seem to handle pretty much all things. loads of infantry poses at most, a setback (because throw away a raek and it can clog up some pretty serious tablespace, with or without shadowstalk) and obviously typhon and the seraph can wail on infantry pretty well even without all those reach attacks.
obviously any kind of jack-wall list is liable to get laughed at. it suffers against really high armour, but you can trade 5 attacks for 2 boosted 12's and an unboosted, which isnt too shabby either

[Necra-Chi]

Bone grinders don't have an officer. They have a leader and you have to kill the whole unit.

[JaggedToothGrin]

oh cool. i totally missed that! guess i'd maybe drop the gobbers for the extra men aswell. though the smoke was nice for added protection

the list does run pretty fury-hot on any pre-megadeath-but-still-wailing-on-stuff turn, in the turn before the kaya-run i had 8 more fury on the table than i was going to be able to leech. that being said, shadowstalk is an excellent method of directing frenzy where you want it, as well as a method of potentially adding another 7" to the absurd threatrange. (in the game in question, i transfered two of kayas puny hits, and lost a raek, one of a total of two casualties all game. i lost only a raek and a shepard, this left me with 4 fury over, all on typhon, cause my other shep was out by a puny margin, so i let him frenzy (was KDed and unengaged anyway) and let the raeks do their business)

[Necra-Chi]

Talisman slipstream charge = 20" scourge threat. And you can put a LOW def model with backstrike in the face of the enemy caster first, preferable medium or large base. Raeks would be great for this if they didn't have stealth.

[JaggedToothGrin]

actually, wouldnt you really want a small base, that way you can stay out of melee range and still clip the caster with the scourge 3" AOE
small base is also more "Stab-over-able" for the following Raeking.
so a harrier would be ideal (harrier appeared in my first list, for this and animus, but that was a 40pt list and thus, completely nutty.)
maybe drop one raek and the gobbers for a harrier and a full grinders

[Necra-Chi]

I meant that with a medium base and low enough DEF that the in melee bonus didn't matter, you could scourge through screening troops. Maybe a carnivean trample?

Harrier is bloody hard to hit, but Thag should always have a harrier anyway.

[JaggedToothGrin]

well, 14 becomes 12, getting a 5 with manifest destiny shouldnt be too hard i'd think. and a carnivean in melee is gonna be def 13 anyway.

trampling only helps against small bases screening a small based caster. its harder to place a trampling carnivean (plus the only way to fit one in the list is to drop typhon, which is a bad idea) and with a 10" jump, thaggy should be able to draw a bead past most screens, or get a charge in onto that screen itself.

i think taking a harrier has the least impact on the list, and solves the majority of problems. plus, you can make a second if things go badly.
so, the revised list would probably look something like this

eThaggy
Typhon
seraph
2 harriers
6 raeks
2 sheps
min grinders
swamp gobbers (or max grinders, no gobbers)

that way you have two harriers, 1 to scourge onto post-charge, and one to position to allow thaggy his charge
you also have 2 sheps, which allows early game fury control, and endgame forcing for raeks no longer in thaggys massively shifted control area.

functionally, i'd like an extra raek or two, to allow for tying up enemy forces and bait/frenzy-redundancy but otherwise, the list seems pretty much perfect

vayl could conceivably do it ok, with chiller and incite, and a boosted hoarfrost, but thaggy is more reliable, and has his feat.

[Necra-Chi]

Doesn't the combo of chiller on your first raek and incite negate the need for knockdown. All the raeks leaping over the army to get the caster have effective MAT10. Leash also looks like you can get absolutely absurd threat range with Typhon, coming out of nowhere to go for crit slams or just massive screening infantry removal.

[JaggedToothGrin]

mat 10 means you will get a lot of hits against def 15 or less, and a bit over half hits on def 17+
which to me, is pretty abysmal stats compared to all hits against any target

she also drops out the number of attacks significantly because her feat doesnt grant attacks. this means she hits much less hard than eThaggys, because she is working a a baseline of 8 less attacks, and it drops further due to the fact that she has to roll to hit, which means some will miss. she trades this for increased potential damage but reduced average boosted damage. increased potential.

she can probably handle the list ok, and win plenty of games with it, but as in all things, eThaggy is basically better.

leash+typhon is nice indeed (although unnatural aggression can give you plenty of range on typhon, and people are scared enough of him they may still shoot him) and rampager is very good too but i dont think it makes up for the reduced attacks dished out. plus, people will be looking out for a "feat slips army past yours, wins" playstyle with vayl, they are less likely to see it coming with eThaggy, and may well still expect you to actually fight their army.

[Necra-Chi]

Why would they expect that from Thag? its always either a hit and run or insurance for an assassination run.

Vayl's hoarfrost is nowhere near as reliable a stationary effect as scourge, but she can do it from very far away, and I think it should be considered that if all goes badly, her feat can extract a lot of the army without free strikes.

BTW, so you think Unnatural Aggro on Typhon? If I had a carnivean and Typhon, would I put Aggro on Typhon and Dragon Blood on carnivean?

[JaggedToothGrin]

in the kaya game (i list it simply because the vlad game was over on turn 2 and in no real way stretched me tactically, typhon just monstered him) i had aggro* on typhon for the first two turns, daring my opponent to try to deal with him, and then when he had sufficient stuff in place to attempt it, went with dragons blood and healing.

and i've run thaggy games where he's just used GoE/MD+feat to simply chew through so much of an army that any counterattack will be to pitiful to be concerned about

but yeah, if i had both up, i'd go dragons blood on the carnivean, plus animus. warmachine/hordes has never been about shoring up weaknesses, it is about overboosting strengths, and then dictating the terms of the game to force your opponent to try to match you on your strengths and not his. (this is the mechanical quarter (as opposed to the aesthetic/psychological other three quarters) of why i do not like vayls feat. yes, if you screw up the run, her feat can help you recover. but, if you screw up the run, its probably because you are running with 10 or so less attacks!)

[Necra-Chi]

We're straying way off topic now (that ship has sailed) but I noticed one other massive difference between Vayl and The Messiah's games in testing. When it all goes to hell, Vayl just capitulates, while E-Thag takes matter into his own hands and at the every least scares the bejeezus out of the opponnet, if not just outright winning it himself. Make no mistake, if your first few turns are spent eliminating threats to E-Thag, he's an absurdly powerful late game piece. Athanc helps and if he can hold onto one harrier and a few beasts for fury supply and transfers, he's very difficult to deal with. I've had a few games where h'es gone solo and won or almost won an otherwise losing game, and I've had the most fun with him then.

I wish I could find a viable strat for Unnatural Aggro on E-thag himself that won't get him killed.

I like the idea of stacking ARM on Carnivean and healing on Typhon with a major payback for even trying to deal with him from range. The opponent looks across the field and sees an ARM 22 carnivean and an ARM 17 Typhon and teh choice seems simple, but Typhon heals with each damaging hit, and then gets a massive speed boost next turn.

[JaggedToothGrin]

i dunno, i think this is a perfect example of legion thoughtprocesses
"Shredders, mmmm shredders" rapidly becomes "how about Raeks?" and then "Raek is used here as a verb (or 'doing word')" which inevitably follows into "man eThagrosh is a horrifying beast" which loops back onto itself.

and i totally agree with that point. vayl and thaggy are both our top end casters, but the difference is that vayl needs a chunk of army (or typhon, who is a chunk of army on his own) to do the killing, while eThaggy is just as (if not more) supportive of his army, but is a complete monster on his own. and yes, he's most fun when its just him, because then he gets to be a badass without having his whole army also be badass in the process (plus, there is risk of losing, which releases adrenalin, plus not actually losing, which releases endorphins)

i ran a test game in mk1, with vayl, legionnaires and 4 teraphs, to see if my theory of "vayl can make any beasts winable" worked. it did, even though the incubi and archers i also had did the killing, the teraphs and legionnaires cleared out pathways and engagements to allow this. but the point was, incite+chiller+reach beasts was not bad. eThaggy is better at this than vayl is. he can make any beast good. but, as always, why make a teraph passable, when you can make a seraph godlike, or typhon pantheonlike?

[Necra-Chi]

Well I hope he doesn't get nerfed TOO much. I haven't even had the chance to explore the depths of depravity Typhon and The Messiah offer together. The rest just seems like window dressing. Critical pitch and a knockdown AOE spell in legion?

I have simple tastes, I just love it when my stuff hits and damages all the time.

[JaggedToothGrin]

well, you're right. as i found out, eThaggy+typhon is literally all you need to win games sometimes.
my current experimentation thinks that eThaggy would be fixed if they change manifest destiny to a single target non-upkeep offensive spell (probably 2 fury range 10) that either gives the current mechanic to the model in thaggys battlegroup if targetting them, or gives the mechanic to models in thaggys battlegroup attacking the target, if targetting an enemy. they also need to make scourge less reliable, maybe change it to not be an AOE, or go back to the old way, where it atleast needed to damage (or just give him hoarfrost)

typhon, i dont know what he needs, but all the character beasts are pretty absurd at the moment (megalith being the least so it seems, and i have yet to see a single skorne list without karn, its like a really bollocks version of where's wally)

[Necra-Chi]

Yeah it doesn't appear to bother PP if every competitive list has an available character warbeast/jack in it.

[JaggedToothGrin]

yeah, and eThaggy is a very expensive model, so i bet they're really cut up about how 'popular' he is.

[Necra-Chi]

I really like him though. I'd play him all the time if he didn't fall into a manifest destiny rut all the time. In terms of using all abilities and keeping it interesting, its actually Saeryn that I've been having most fun with. But then I have some turns or games with her where I can't hit anything and then fun factor goes down.

With E-Thag beast heavy, everything hits, everything damages.

[JaggedToothGrin]

yeah. in mk1, my favourite was vayl, and i didnt play eThaggy much because i was withdrawing somewhat from the game, and he was a giant walking easy win button for my playstyle. i liked eLylyth, but she was also a bit too potent for my tastes. i had some fun with rhyas and saeryn, and never really got a handle on aby (mostly cause i really dislike the model)

in mk2, i am struggling to have fun with vayl, rhyas is an excercise is bizarre futility, but saeryn and eLylyth are both quite good fun. aby looks good now, same with pLylyth, and eThaggy is too good, but he's closer to mk1 vayl than mk2 vayl is.

[Necra-Chi]

Do you think ist is possible that Vayl and E-Thag are balanced by the fact that they are so supportive of warbeasts that they are hamstringing themselves taking a lot of them? I have found that infantry heavy or a half half mix of beasts and infantry have outperformed beast heavy lists, even with these two. The hypothesis being that one can either go beast heavy with them and be fundamentally flawed (you should have taken more infantry and incubi) or they do take some infantry and incubi and they are not getting as much value out of their beast spells.

Its just a hypothesis at the moment but I have had some success forgetting for example that saeryn's feta is for battlegroup and still only takinga few beasts with her. the theory being that the smaller beast contingent uses the beast specific buffs a warlock can give them, to be the hole punchers and assassins of the army, while the rest of the army is infantry and incubi for the "bulk" admage output.

I'm constantly reminded that our excellent fury management solos nevertheless cost points, effectively raising the cost of any beasts that you take over and above what you thought you could manage without forsaken and shepherds, further exascerbating the relative difference in volume of damage output between infantry/solos and warbeasts.

[JaggedToothGrin]

its possible, i guess
but i think legion beasts are excellent, and throughout mk1 (and most of my mk2 tests so far) dont take infantry at all, and it has not adversely affected my win/loss record. fury can get out of hand, but usually not until the fighting is thick enough that it doesnt matter as much (and a frenzy is devastating if you have 2 beasts, it is virtually inconsequential when you have 15 or more)
it is entirely possible that the idea is that they would be balanced by this, but i am not convinced it was successful.
aside from a squad of legionnaires (who have been solid disappointments on the killing things front) and maybe incubi, i've not felt the need. and even that bundle is the same as another carnivean, who has not yet failed me even once (and now has even more mat)
incubi add more to the cost of our infantry than shepards and forsaken do to our beasts. every time i've run a beast caster, infantry are a waste, every time i've run a mixed caster, the beasts are the ones doing the killing. and if i want to tie up a unit or two worth of infantry, i'm rapidly coming to the opinion that two raeks are much more capable than a squad of legionnaires, and more liable to feature in my endgame plans.
likewise, in mk1 i always viewed our best infantry unit as a group of shredders. mk2, i feel much the same really, which makes me quite resistant to the infantry pressure that the game in general seems to be feeling.
a squad of legionnaires seems like a good choice with vayl, for running to engage on feat turn while everything else slips past, but again i come back to the raek...
(and we seem to have come back full circle, because i'm talking about massed shredders as infantry again)

[Necra-Chi]

I've never liked massive fury load and losing control of my army. That is even more the case in Mk2 with lower thresholds, crap frenzy and baying of chaos.

I think you underestimate incubi. They definitely arenn't an add on cost. They're the most efficient damage output that doesn't produce fury that ALWAYs makes it to combat, carried inside their hosts that were going to die anyway. Sure you have the crap game when they just can't hit a 7 or 8 ever, but usually they do more damage than any beast list will. I'm considering a list with pLylyth and infantry and incubi because she can simultaneously solve their only weakness (can't hit stuff) and also even increase damage output against singular target (parasite). Vayl and saeryn can theoretically improve their ability to hit with breathstealer (doesn't really work in practice) and chiller (haven't tried it yet) but do nothing for incubus damage output.

I think its a worthy avenue of research, if I didn't much prefer E-Lylyth to P-Lylyth.

I also don't know what to build around the list.

[JaggedToothGrin]

you talk about not liking to lose control of your army, but in some ways i see incubi as a potent threat that my enemy gets greater control of when and where they have to face them than i do.

so until they kill my infantry (which is almost always a bad idea, given incubi are better than they are) i am playing down in points. meanwhile, they dont benefit from the things my beasts benefit from, and now that i cannot kill my own troops to release incubi, i have no real say in their appearance beyond thrusting infantry in their face and saying "kill me"

if incubi do not benefit from the spells my beasts do, and beasts do not benefit from the spells my incubi do, and i have to take beasts, i am better served taking just beasts, and maximising the potential benefit from the spells i do cast, rather than doubling the amount i need to do.

incubi may hide inside models that were "going to die anyway" but if you had instead spent those points on beasts, they may well have survived. either incubi are an add on cost to our infantry, or infantry are an add on cost to our incubi. if you cannot have both on the table at the same time, then you are paying more points for one or the other.

i had some thoughts on incubi and their uses, certainly you recall i was well and truly behind their abuse in mk1, but i'm not feeling much love for them in mk2, yes, they are virtually a requirement if you take infantry, but beasts are an actual requirement regardless, and they seem to do just fine on their own. maybe if i played more 50 point games i'd use infantry, but at the moment i'm mostly playing 35 pointers, and i can easily fill that with beasts and not overburden myself furywise

i've never much cared for legion infantry, aesthetically, so my list and play-experience have grown to reflect that. i own a unit of our early infantry units (no legionnaires though they are the ones i like the look of most, or raptors, because they just plain do not fit with my colourscheme) and they have either never been painted, or been painted and largely abandoned.

infantry are on my list of playtest stuff, especially when i get back to working with rhyas, but for now, raeks and shredders are the go XD

[Necra-Chi]

I've been testing whether it is possible to just ignore the legion infantry so that the legion player is playing down by 5/10 pts of incubi. Its not practical. Their hosts are still doing their job. legionnaires are being cannonfodder, striders are flanking and going after support, archers are egtting up close and shooting because they have to. there is no additional cost. Incubi just cost what you pay in pts for them, and you play without those points, in much the same way that you play without swordsmen pts before they start connecting with their swords. The only thing that makes incubi not totally unfair is MAT6 and even then they can often get backstrikes due to the new host rule.

Its hard for beasts to compare with infantry at the moment because we're paying a premium for something on our beasts, whether it be thos beast buffing spells or the power of concentration of force. You should only pay that premium afew times though, not on everything.

Consider the seraph and obligatory forsaken/shepherd to manage its fury (if you're talking about beast heavy). At a similar cost can it really compare with Full archers and UA. 12 models that are only less resilient to AOEs compared with Seraph. That can get 6 rerollable RAT 7+ POW 12 shots with re-rolls per turn till casualties start, and can tailormake other CRA combinations too, and whose firepower increases even further on any turn they can stand still (rare I know) and have better range, and a defensive ability for turns where they have to move up into danger zone.

[bochaba]

Shredder spam has a great advantage that frenzied shredders are often as good as normal shredders, you can choose which shredders will roll to frenzy and thier low threshold means they are likely to frenzy. As frenzied beasts now dump fury, this is a viable fury management mechanism. Run super hot and frenzy off the excess.

Harriers are perhaps even better as sprint allows them to return if they kill something.

Vayl has some advantages in this approach over eThag. Her greater fury allows for a bigger front, easier flanking and more leaching. eThags is still more offensive. Shepherds and forsaken are still good, but you dont necessarily need them with this approach.

[JaggedToothGrin]

but who cannot slipstream, cannot be transfered to, and do not benefit from incite?
and i would argue that they are more vulnerable to not just aoes, but any ranged attacks short of incoming pow16/boosted 14's because each hit will kill one, reducing its effectiveness, while a seraph only ever loses minimal effectiveness until it dies (especially with a shepard to heal it up again)

unless you're standing still, archers dont seem like a better option to me. especially not when i'm buying stuff/spells to boost the beasts i have to have already

edit: and bo, eThaggys control range is only marginally smaller due to his larger base, 1 point more leeching isnt a lot
and while i will accept that incite and manifest destiny are roughly comparable on non-boosted attacks, on boosted attacks (ie: rabid shredders) manifest destiny is markedly better.

[bochaba]

1 point more leeching isnt a lot
and while i will accept that incite and manifest destiny are roughly comparable on non-boosted attacks, on boosted attacks (ie: rabid shredders) manifest destiny is markedly better.In the games Ive been testing, 1 extra fury is 1 extra shredder I can run. Isnt a big deal but its something.

The average roll for a boosted attack under manifest destiny is 12.24 by my calcs. The average under incite is 12.5. What numbers are you arriving at?

[JaggedToothGrin]

oh my. no, you're quite right. i appear to have miscalculated somewhere along the way, way back when. i wish i'd kept my old test sheets so i could figure out where the maths went bad (but not enough to actually go searching on the off chance i did keep them) stupid maths.
MD is better at avoiding double 1's and getting double 6's though, although those benefits are fairly minor, otherwise they are pretty similar. (which i guess lends further weight to my call to have incite dropped back in range again)

still think eThaggy is much better than vayl though and as to the 1 extra fury being 1 extra shredder, i would consider that benefit negligible compared to the feat benefits of an extra attack each.

[bochaba]

Yeah I wasnt really arguing that Vayl was better, just that she had some advantages.

Its a bit academic in my experience so far. Shredderspam has a few serious flaws. Shedders are fast but they dont screen Thag. Keeping them within range of incite or manifest destiny can put the Warcaster in harms way. If the aim is to get shedders in the enemies face asap, swamp gobbers have a hard time keeping up.

At 2 points each they arent as durable as the cheaper warmongers or even as threatening. They are awesome solo hunters and terrain lurkers but out in the open they are pretty easy to kill. Almost as vulnerable to AOE as Striders and a few points of damage can pop an aspect.

If you are buying lots of shredders, your ranged offensive suffers. Without a ranged threat it's very hard to dictate terms and you often have to offer your opponent a charge as you try to close. Shredders aren't able to take a charge and even def 15 under tenacity is vulnerable to 2 man cma's

I briefly entertained the idea of a shredderswarm under shadowpack but they then lack combat bonuses and are still vulnerable in melee and to AOEs.

I own 17 of the landsharks and would really like to make them work but its just a fun idea atm, not a real threat. My typical Khador lists chew them up.

[JaggedToothGrin]

without pack mentality, certainly they suffer against high armour, and that to me is their biggest weakness.
but i made something of a reputation with shredders in mk1, and have an as yet undefeated 500pt list which includes 16 of them.

you could dictate the terms of the battle via scenario, or by simply rushing a few shredders ahead of the pack to engage things while the rest of the army follows up. generally though, i found that most armies do not bring the firepower needed to take them all on, it was more a game of keeping vayl safe. unless they can run and gun at the same time, a ranged force will find themselves eating shredder sooner or later, and while they may cause some casualties on the way in, there's little they can do about it once they do make it there.
i actually found it was a slower force than most, rather than the lightning fast jabs of a winged legion list, a shredder swarm was more like a rolling sea of teeth that devoured everything it touched

in mk2 they lost a little survivability, their ability to take on high armour targets, and a lot of stability, but at 2 points, they're still comparable to warmongers (it takes a single 24 damage hit to take out a warmonger, or a 25 damage hit to take out a shredder, you get 4 shredders for the price of 5 warmongers) although certainly the comparison has dropped to comparable levels now
but i'd still rather take my shredders than warmongers i think. (plus, warmongers don't benefit from incite XD)

overall though, i think the days of shredderspam are over, atleast at high end play, eDoomy and baying of chaos screw them too easily, though the new frenzy rules have helped address that. still, the way of the future appears to be raekspam, although i quite like my 3 carniveans...

[bochaba]

it takes a single 24 damage hit to take out a warmonger, or a 25 damage hit to take out a shredder, you get 4 shredders for the price of 5 warmongersA shredder looses a lot of value with even just 1 aspect removed which takes a lot less damage. Blast damage is a minor threat to warmongers but a serious one to shedders. This is not to say warmongers are a great choice, Im having a hard time keeping my warmongers alive to meet the enemy. At least shredders have access to speed, pathfinding and an excellent animus.


you could dictate the terms of the battle via scenario, or by simply rushing a few shredders ahead of the pack to engage things while the rest of the army follows up.

I know this worked well in Mk1 but in Mkii Im often seeing infantry units where only a few models charge and the rest hang back, this makes baiting units harder.


3 carniveans...I admit, this aroused me.