What to watch out for in other factions

[Necra-Chi]

To be honest I've only glanced at some of the other factions stuff (my most hated Mk1 offenders) but I see a general toning down of everything. Does this mean everything might generally be toned UP for the final Mk2 rules. We saw a lot of flavour and a bit of power come back inti Final Mk2 warmachine.

Has anyone seen anything particularly good in the other factions?

I checked out skorne, because they have all my most hated, still need to check out Circle.

E-morghoul got toned down.
As did Extoller. Totally normal now.
Rhadeim got toned down.
Molik Karn did too.
Venators did too, in cost at least.
the void spirit looks really nasty with abomination and eruption of ash. OUCH! an 2 pts.
The ancestral guardian can run now.


Anything you've noticed that looks hard?

I heard someone talking about circle still having lots of lightning spam.
I noticed their stupid stones can be shot now. Thank goodness. I always thought they were absurdly difficult to destroy for such cheap cost stopping scenario loss.

List the new enemies of legion, (or the old enemies that no longer concern us) here. :)

[Aries37]

From what I can see some of the new stuff that's getting a lot of table time:

Blood runner tormentor
molik karn
pkrueger
lord of the feasts
blackclads
pkaya
thumper
axer
swamp gobbers

[hairsolo]

Troll thumpers are crazy good. Especially now that you have to make a threshold check after forcing a beast to shake effects.

3 pts for a range 14 auto knock down mat 7 with no min distance on the slam. Thats insane!!! I would take 2 in every list and laugh when my opponents heavies got in range.

[blitzmonkey]

The Sentry Stone & Manikins seem to be pretty tight as well.

[Aries37]

Troll thumpers are crazy good. Especially now that you have to make a threshold check after forcing a beast to shake effects.

3 pts for a range 14 auto knock down mat 7 with no min distance on the slam. Thats insane!!! I would take 2 in every list and laugh when my opponents heavies got in range.
it's not even auto knockdown. It's auto slam.

[Necra-Chi]

Gobbers don't seem that good in the new rules. Its not that they have to be in the cloud its that speed you can move forward and still have a cloud in front is reduced.

I heard about the thumper. Nice.

PKreuger seems ok. I expect a lot of electricity bouncing all over the place but:
While the feat templates autohit now, they don't move. That's a massive change.
The woldwardens have to force to cast the spells, so that should mean less chainlightning theoretically.

Molik karn looks good, but fair. Nothing super badass.

Sentry stone is great with three manikins, but I'm happy I can shoot it and its easily killed now.

What's the story with axer, pKaya, LOTF and blackclads?

I looked at Champions and they still look great with weaponmaster and good ARM when bunched up, but you pay a lot for them. I can't help but think cinerators are going to end up being very similar.

[RuneGrey]

One thing to consider outside of Hordes is that our ability to deal with heavy armor is restricted to a few models. Things with armor 18+ generally mean that we have to be running either a few specific beasts, or a few specific casters - we don't have a lot that has the capacity to crack the armor on really heavy duty units.

Thankfully, the Carnivean, Angelus, and Typhon can do the job really well, and pLylyth and eThag can either debuff the enemy or have monstrous strength to cut through heavy armor. But our lack of armor debuffs overall and relatively low pow without boosting means that super heavy armored units will be something to plan for.

[Necra-Chi]

Are there hordes factions that can put a lot of ultra high ARM on the field? Woldwardens being ARM 18 and 35 hits points are a bit daunting to be honest, but they're more difficult to heal.

The problem with our heavy hitters is that they are expensive. How do you beat two 6 point heavy warjacks designed to take on enemy heavies with a 11 point carnivean or 12 point Typhon, even if you get first strike?

You might kill one but the other will get a buff and some focus and you've just gone down 11/12 pts for 6.

[blitzmonkey]

Gobbers don't seem that good in the new rules. Its not that they have to be in the cloud its that speed you can move forward and still have a cloud in front is reduced.

I heard about the thumper. Nice.

PKreuger seems ok. I expect a lot of electricity bouncing all over the place but:
While the feat templates autohit now, they don't move. That's a massive change.
The woldwardens have to force to cast the spells, so that should mean less chainlightning theoretically.

Molik karn looks good, but fair. Nothing super badass.

Sentry stone is great with three manikins, but I'm happy I can shoot it and its easily killed now.

What's the story with axer, pKaya, LOTF and blackclads?

I looked at Champions and they still look great with weaponmaster and good ARM when bunched up, but you pay a lot for them. I can't help but think cinerators are going to end up being very similar.

Keep your units away from the Axer.

pKaya is still the assassination caster and Soothing Song lets her run beast heavy and hot.

LOTF IS AMAZING!!!!!!!11!!!1!! I expect to see him a bit as well. He has Axer-syndrome as well.

Blackclads....dont know much yet.

[Necra-Chi]

Wait a minute. The axer with a short axe gets reach and thresher, and the vanquisher and mariner with a heavy object at the end of a long chain still don't have reach with their thresher? Wierd.

Yeah that looks really good. Any combos make it extra heinous?

The LOTF looks even more badass with its ability to teleport (with a really high RAT ***?), cheap cost comboed with stealth high ARM and hit points. You can't just eyeless sight snipe it with a flamejet and expect that to work.

[blitzmonkey]

Madrak's Carnage + Axer + Winter Troll's Animus. Ouch.


When an enemy model without Immunity: Cold ICON ends its activation within 2˝ of target friendly Faction model it becomes
stationary for one round. Freezer lasts for one round.

Friendly Faction models gain +2 to melee attack rolls against enemy models in this modelʼs control area. Carnage lasts for one
turn.

So the Axer is at mat 8 with reach and thresher and next turn if the models don't disengage and take free strikes, they are stationary instead.

[Necra-Chi]

What has the winter troll's animus to do with it?

[RuneGrey]

Are there hordes factions that can put a lot of ultra high ARM on the field? Woldwardens being ARM 18 and 35 hits points are a bit daunting to be honest, but they're more difficult to heal.

The problem with our heavy hitters is that they are expensive. How do you beat two 6 point heavy warjacks designed to take on enemy heavies with a 11 point carnivean or 12 point Typhon, even if you get first strike?

You might kill one but the other will get a buff and some focus and you've just gone down 11/12 pts for 6.

Well, Slayers are not exactly what we call 'durable'. They might cost 6 points, but they're also about as tough as other factions light jacks. And these are the cheapest you're going to come up against - and are as dependent as we are on getting the first strike. A single Angelus will probably do 25 damage on a charge to a Slayer - essentially wrecking it in one hit. We've thankfully got the best way of neutralizing armor in the game, even if the Angelus isn't quite the caster assassin he used to be.

What would be good to test is what we do when Karchev comes thundering down the field at you towing a pair of Juggernauts and Beast 09 behind him. Multiple ARM 20 heavies are probably going to be our hardest sticking point, and it's probably good to test and see how we can fare against that sort of setup. Our options for eliminating heavy jacks are pretty slim outside of two of our heavy beasts.

[Sabin]

To be honest I've only glanced at some of the other factions stuff (my most hated Mk1 offenders) but I see a general toning down of everything. Does this mean everything might generally be toned UP for the final Mk2 rules. We saw a lot of flavour and a bit of power come back inti Final Mk2 warmachine.

Has anyone seen anything particularly good in the other factions?

I checked out skorne, because they have all my most hated, still need to check out Circle.

E-morghoul got toned down.
As did Extoller. Totally normal now.
Rhadeim got toned down.
Molik Karn did too.
Venators did too, in cost at least.
the void spirit looks really nasty with abomination and eruption of ash. OUCH! an 2 pts.
The ancestral guardian can run now.


Anything you've noticed that looks hard?

I heard someone talking about circle still having lots of lightning spam.
I noticed their stupid stones can be shot now. Thank goodness. I always thought they were absurdly difficult to destroy for such cheap cost stopping scenario loss.

List the new enemies of legion, (or the old enemies that no longer concern us) here. :)

Purebloods are insanely good.... the circle beasts got a lot of love, even the Argus is worth fielding.

[Necra-Chi]

I was thinking about crusaders, drillers, freebooters and all those cheap heavies actually. Costs 6 points. Wrecks heavies with any amount of help at all.

The Karchev problem is a real one, as is the Mortenebra problem. I can't see us ever doing enough dmage with infantry, solos or lights, so we basically have to have heavies. We've got very limitted options for slamming too, and it doesn't really buy time anymore.

Hmm I can see I'm going to have fits playing against my buddy's puppy dog army soon... :)

[Sabin]

I was thinking about crusaders, drillers, freebooters and all those cheap heavies actually. Costs 6 points. Wrecks heavies with any amount of help at all.

The Karchev problem is a real one, as is the Mortenebra problem. I can't see us ever doing enough dmage with infantry, solos or lights, so we basically have to have heavies. We've got very limitted options for slamming too, and it doesn't really buy time anymore.

Angels are not that terrible mk2

[blitzmonkey]

What has the winter troll's animus to do with it?

Sorry, looked at wrong one. Mauler with +3 STR. Brings it to a MAT 8 POW 18 hits on everything in its reach melee range. That to me is pretty hefty.

[Mezzanine]

PKaya is basically the same as before but she lost Rager for Soothing Song and her Pack Hunter now reads that all of her warbeasts get +2 on all attack rolls in her CNTRL. Its a constant free ability. She also still has Spirit Door. Still has her feat. Comes with 6 beast points. Ugly.

EDoomie's Agiation is the same which means that he can put Fury on all of our warbeasts which is really bad with the new rules.

Wardens got hit with the nerf bat. Not a circle player but they might have been hit too hard.

[bochaba]

...The Karchev problem is a real one...

Ive been playing Karchev gunboat (kodiak, destroyer x2) a lot lately and I'm having a hard time coming up with a single Legion list that would trouble it. Something I'll definitely be playing around with.

[Neutralyze]

Are there hordes factions that can put a lot of ultra high ARM on the field? Woldwardens being ARM 18 and 35 hits points are a bit daunting to be honest, but they're more difficult to heal.

The problem with our heavy hitters is that they are expensive. How do you beat two 6 point heavy warjacks designed to take on enemy heavies with a 11 point carnivean or 12 point Typhon, even if you get first strike?

You might kill one but the other will get a buff and some focus and you've just gone down 11/12 pts for 6.

kill both warjacks in the same turn. we have that potential, you know that. if we dont kill both they can bes eriously gimped and rolling less on us.

[Necra-Chi]

kill both warjacks in the same turn. we have that potential, you know that. if we dont kill both they can bes eriously gimped and rolling less on us.

Sure, but then you're not comparing equal points expenditure.

[Necra-Chi]

Looking at some discussions about the LOTF, he can't raven and thresher in the same turn so that helps, but can just keep buying attacks. And with lightning tendrils, either option is a real beating for infantry. Ouch.

[Neutralyze]

Sure, but then you're not comparing equal points expenditure.

you have to factor in the difference between focus and fury. like i said in the other thread they ahve somew eird formula that calculates the difference between the two.

so a 8pt heavy jack can be compared to a 11 pt beast due to focus and fury.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I'd like to echo the OP here: It seems as if /everything/ got scaled back. This is one of the reasons that, despite losing things like multiple attacks out of our Raptors and Striders, I'm continuing to feel very positive after my initial glance over everything.

As my primary opponent fields Skorne, that's often the focus of my ire.

The ridiculous elements have consistently been toned down. Extollers only buff single models. Void Spirits don't teleport after a kill. Master Tormentors have lost Weapon-Master. Ferox have lost a collective 17 hit points and cost a small fortune to field.

That said, those Rapid-Shot Elite Cadre Striders will be missed.

-s&s

[Necra-Chi]

Gee there seems to be a hell of a lot of reach with thresher out there. The master tormentor has it too. With anatomical precision built in ! AND vanish. That's 2 skorne solos that do a number on infantry.

What is it with reach and thresher all of a sudden? Are there anymore I've missed?

[blitzmonkey]

Axer, Lord of Feast, Rhinodon, Tormentor. That is all I see atleast.

[Necra-Chi]

At least thresher doesn't hose incubi anymore. You thresher, you die next turn.

[Primus]

You should have seen Thresher in its first WM Field Test incarnation. Was individual attack rolls on each model in the area of effect. Stupid crazy powerful.

[Necra-Chi]

Grim's feat looks like it was made to screw legion or something. less def, less speed and no thrust or strafe. Ouch.

[Sevwall]

Molik Karn is broken good.

When he puts up fate ward, you do not get boosted damage on charge rolls (yes, charges boost now).

So niether your beasts nor your infantry can kill him.

Good luck.

Other things to watch out for: Thumper/Blitzer combo kills. eHoarluk with Mulg and Wild Aggression. 10" Befuddle.

[chrsjxn]

Some things to watch out for in circle that I've seen:

1) Their living heavies have pretty insane threat ranges if they stack on the buffs. Feral Warpwolves can charge 15". The Gnarlhorn can get an 11" slam, plus d6+2 from follow up.

2) Krueger's Lightning Tendrils spell, plus a fast moving heavy will mow through our low arm infantry.

3) Beast Form Kromac has 9 Fury, so he can suck just about all of your beasts completely dry with his feat. Plus, 18 Fury worth of Mat 9 P+S 14 axes is... well, you get the idea.

4) Woldwardens can charge and then cast spells now, for extra range.

5) eKaya's Dog Pile + Arcane Killer combo is still very strong.

[Necra-Chi]

What's his arm? massed POW 14's, POW 10 weaponmaster, CRA, CMA, manifest destiny and all that should still bring him down.

What does "unboostable" mean? Doe sit mean you can't boost them, or that they are always unboosted? Charging and rabid is boosted damage but you aren't actually boosting.

[Sevwall]

ARM 18 with 28 life. I can't think of a unit with CMA or CRA that will reliably bring him down. Incite would be a good counter, as would MD. Most units, even weaponsmasters, cannot hit his DEF 13 enough with high enough POW to kill him.

If he makes it through the turn, you have serious problems.

Besides, aren't you legion players all about not using Incite and MD in all discussions? I thought thats what half the Seraph thread was about ;)

[Primus]

(yes, charges boost now).


Um, Charges always got boosted damage even in MkI. That's why you couldn't drop Focus/Fury to add on a fourth die.

[SteakAndSpirits]

...If the charge attack hits, add an additional die to damage. This damage roll cannot be boosted.

Primal.

-s&s

[Primus]

Ah, ok. I pulled out my copy of Prime Remix and it says charges auto-boost. In any case, the result is the same.

[Necra-Chi]

ARM 18 with 28 life. I can't think of a unit with CMA or CRA that will reliably bring him down. Incite would be a good counter, as would MD. Most units, even weaponsmasters, cannot hit his DEF 13 enough with high enough POW to kill him.

If he makes it through the turn, you have serious problems.

Besides, aren't you legion players all about not using Incite and MD in all discussions? I thought thats what half the Seraph thread was about ;)

Guess we''l just have to slam and throw him.... oh wait.

[Sevwall]

It has been ruled. Charges and incited attacks get 2d6 on the roll. No boosting.

Now is it a problem?

[Neutralyze]

It has been ruled. Charges and incited attacks get 2d6 on the roll. No boosting.

Now is it a problem?

Typhon on average can kill him, angels can do a numer on him as well.

Am I worried? Not one bit.

Can he go through my army and kill me with his broken MKI rukes, not anymore, I'm good.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Is it a problem?

If it isn't a game balance problem, then it's certainly a tactical problem - With SPD:6 and access to additional movement effects, it's likely that Molik Karn will get the drop on you before you'd like. And once he's there, his fate warded DEF: 13, and ARM: 18 should wreak havoc.

He's all but immune to non-weapon master Infantry, since infantry typically require charges to address high armor targets.

If I played Skorne, and I was playing to win, there isn't a single list I'd field that didn't include Molik Karn. Add Xerxis and Armor of Karrak for a DEF: 13, ARM: 22 model that can't be boosted against. If an Angelius can hit that successfully, it's looking at a single 2d6 + 3 damage roll. Every other roll will be ineffectual. Even with Incite and Glory of Everblight.

So yes. It's a problem -- If not for game balance, then because you'll be facing him often and are ill-equipped to do so.

-s&s

[Sevwall]

I think its funny that you reference his MKI rules. He got combo strike instead of the low DEF smashing, and Fate Ward got better. Thats it. No other changes. His cost is even similar.

Typhon can kill him, I'll give you that. So can most things with incite. But if you get incite, why not give him Safeguard, or Defender's Ward, or Mordikaar's feat.

Play some games against him and get back to me.

[Neutralyze]

I think its funny that you reference his MKI rules. He got combo strike instead of the low DEF smashing, and Fate Ward got better. Thats it. No other changes. His cost is even similar.

Typhon can kill him, I'll give you that. So can most things with incite. But if you get incite, why not give him Safeguard, or Defender's Ward, or Mordikaar's feat.

Play some games against him and get back to me.

Without buffs typhon can kill him while everything else couldn't due to not boosting.

In the game I played I threw two angels at him and the 2nd one was able to kill him.

Both ap attacks hit unbuffed and both did around 12 damage a piece then follow up attacks at dice -4 were able to do the last few.

The carny has SG on him in a different game against him and did nothing but flail and get one hit it.

[greenlock]

I'll second the difficulty in killing Molik Karn. 2 Angels manage, at average, to deal just over 24 points of damage to him without buffs, provided they didn't need to spend fury to charge. Typhon is at just over 30 damage provided he didn't need to charge. Carnivean does just over 19 damage. With a buff like incite or a debuff like parasite he should go down provided he doesn't get the jump on you and kill/avoid everything that could kill him.