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View Full Version : Let's Talk: Wolves of Orboros



Mutton
11-26-2009, 05:09 PM
This is a general discussion for everyone's favorite cheap infantry, the Wolves of Orboros. Now, I don't want to compare them to mk1, so let's look at what they have now, not what they had.

First, the base unit. A nice cheap 4/6 unit is great, as is their 11" threat with pathfinder. MAT6 with Powerful Charge is great, letting us hit even ATGM on the charge. The main issue comes from pow9, which means that on average rolls we will break a normal shieldwall, but any buffs on it or a warbeast/jack won't be very hurt. CMAs are nice, but really not the answer to anything but 10wound solos and cavalry.

Overall, they are decent for their points. They are but fodder really, light infantry clearers, who die like flies to pow7 blasts and are hit fairly easily.

Compare them to their Warmachine counterparts, TFG or Steelheads. TFG lack Powerful Charge and Pathfinder, but Gain Set Defense and Shieldwall. They also have 1POW over the WoO, leading for me to favor the TFG. Steelheads have 1 less MAT and lose Pathfinder, but gain 2POW and Set Defense. They hit about as often, but do it harder and are harder to kill on the charge. Again, point Steelheads.

With Hordes, right now the closest to our Wolves are probably Karax, Legionaries, and Fennblades. Karax lack Pathfinder, 1SPD, 1MAT, and 1DEF, but gain 1ARM, 1POW Girded, Shieldwall, and a base Ranked Attack. In the end, Karax are better defensively, while the Wolves are better offensively. When told to pick one it would come down to what I wanted. Equal units. Legionaries lack 1SPD, 1DEF, Pathfinder, and Powerful Charge, but gain Vengeance, Defensive Line, and 2POW. They are the easy winners here over the Wolves. Fennblades lose 1SPD, 1DEF, and Pathfinder for Tough, Hard, S&S, 3POW and 1ARM. I'd give this as well to Fennblades; the Trolls have the best infantry buffs around and Fennblades, while lacking something, still are slightly better.


So overall, my observations from running the WoO a few times and seeing them along with the other units is that they lack something. Does the UA bring this? Let's see.

The UA grants a Standard, Ranked Attack, and Mini-feat Gang/Overtake. Now Overtake is pretty useless; you can move in to tie up more units, but it's not that good. Gang is what you take them for, as we don't have enough ranged attacks to really abuse Ranked Attack. Gang is nice, but it really doesn't do much for the Wolves. MAT10 does rock, but already having mat8 on the charge means you don't really need it. Gang feels like you pop it after you've charged, as pow11 doesn't change their damage profile much, but it lets you kill without a charge. The problem then is that Wolves die after they charge; they die hard. The final nail in it's coffin is the lack of a cmd buff from the UA; cmd8 on a unit you want to spread out somewhat is just bad.


Overall, I feel that the Wolves need something more. What it is, I'm not sure. Please, bring your thoughts on the Wolves and what you think could fix them if you agree with me. If you disagree, that's awesome as well, just back up your arguments on both sides. Best of luck playing your games, and have fun!

MCPeePants
11-26-2009, 06:32 PM
Ehh, they're pretty vanilla, but at 6 points for a full unit I'd say them seem pretty excellent. With gang on the charge they can do some pretty serious damage to all but the hardest targets. With average rolls it's going to take a lot of them to hurt the heavier beasts/jacks, but anything under ARM 18 gets shredded pretty bad. They're also absurdly accurate on the charge, making them great for taking out the DEF14+ types.

Overall I'd say they're not amazing, but at their cost, definitely useful.

Ancient_of_MuMu
11-26-2009, 06:48 PM
I find it much harder to justify the UA. They gain a one off gang and the standard bearer (overtake is not worth much). I don't feel that is really worth the 2 points it costs. It is difficult to resist comparing to Mk1, but the UA went from a must take to a meh. It was overpowered but it feels way underpowered now.

ArchonXVI
11-26-2009, 06:53 PM
I think sprint would be a much better and fluffier option for the standard bearer than overtake.

Elias Macale
11-26-2009, 07:37 PM
Ranked attack from the UA lets you ignore them for LOS, so another unit (dare I say reeves?) could shoot through them. Casters can also cast spells through them and such as well. Not insane, but it's worth factoring in for the UA.

Overtake can be used to have a model help out another who wasn't benefiting from gang as well. I find that the Mini feat almost eliminates the need for the CMA when they charge though, which is not a bad thing.

MCPeePants
11-26-2009, 07:54 PM
I think sprint would be a much better and fluffier option for the standard bearer than overtake.

Now that's an idea I can really get behind. Sure fits the wolf theme, and I could see it being legitimately useful, rather than the sometimes kinda nice to have overtake. Still, that's good enough I could see it bumping the cost of the UA up to 3. Cutting down some light infantry then moving through to engage whatever was behind it? Yes please.

Ancient_of_MuMu
11-26-2009, 08:07 PM
Now that's an idea I can really get behind. Sure fits the wolf theme, and I could see it being legitimately useful, rather than the sometimes kinda nice to have overtake. Still, that's good enough I could see it bumping the cost of the UA up to 3. Cutting down some light infantry then moving through to engage whatever was behind it? Yes please.

I don't know. Its hard to imagine Wolves of Orbors charging 11", hitting something at Mat 10 with POW 9+4d6 and then moving a full 6" to engage something else. It just seems unrealistic.

DonJean
11-26-2009, 08:09 PM
Sadly I have to agree with your feeling that they now lack a certian something. I just see their change like the one made to Sword Knights.

I see them now in a more defined role of clearing out light infantry or hunting up a flank to tie up something nasty till you can send an important unit to safety or bring in somehting to deal with them. They are sadly not as much of a fodder unit as some of the 4/6 units are.

ArchonXVI
11-26-2009, 08:32 PM
I don't know. Its hard to imagine Wolves of Orbors charging 11", hitting something at Mat 10 with POW 9+4d6 and then moving a full 6" to engage something else. It just seems unrealistic.

They don't do that anymore though. It's only +2 to damage, not +1d6. Overtake also doesn't do anything for them; with one attack, it's only a minor adjustment.

And define unrealistic. Remember, they're only going to be pow 9 from that point on, and they aren't exactly hard to kill after they engage.

UnderWood
11-27-2009, 12:59 AM
I think there still a great unit accurate and good for engageing the only thing I can't figure out is overtake why overtake it seems pretty redundant.
Sprint would ahve been a good choice but overtake is just not very effective.

Menoth's Gambit
11-27-2009, 04:45 AM
Honestly, they seem the same to me. At least the base unit does. You take them as a skirmish unit. They go in, kill, die.

The UA was awesome in MKI. No bones about that. In MKII its as stated vanilla. But, I don't feel like they lack, I just see them as easy to use as cannon fodder.

The only game I tried them in so far was with Morvhana and Wolf Lord Morraig. My thought was to use revive to ensure I always got in my flank attacks. In my one game it ended up being a non factor, so I don't know.

The only thing the Wolves have going for them is they are cheap. Thats the selling point. However, they are going to hit what they charge. They might not kill it, but they are gonna hit it!

Mutton
11-27-2009, 03:03 PM
Problem is that without Camo they still die like flies to ranged attacks and blasts. We have trouble protecting them as is, and they aren't that much of a threat. Camo on the base unit would go a great deal toward helping them, a CMD buff on the UA, and overtake-> sprint. Also make it so that all models in a CRA get a sprint move.

BIG RICH
11-27-2009, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the discussion and the sharing of thoughts, Mutton. I have to boxes worth of WoO and I'm hoping that they still make a decent "fodder" choice for my higher level Kaya armies. With Kaya I need a lot of beasts, but having some WoO in theory helps to tie up charge lanes and offer some opportunities for back up to my battles.

I haven't really had a chance to do any investigating on the HORDES MKII stuff. Been too busy.

- Rich

Scyldemort
11-27-2009, 04:08 PM
I think Overtake might be there specifically in reference to War Wolves and Wolf Lord Morraig.

AndrewBarney
11-28-2009, 12:19 AM
Played with full WoO t + UA tonight and they did what I expected - tied up stuff while leaving everything else to do the real killing. I was a bit disappointed by the lack of damage output on the mini-feat though, as I took the UA thinking that with it the wolves could put a good dent in a heavy. I'm thinking a full unit without the UA would be fine for what I wanted.

I actually spammed the Argus' animus to get a charge through a forest with these guys which quite annoyed my opponent - too bad it isn't model/unit.

It's annoying that other similar-costed units seem to offer more, but really, we have a lot of ways to use terrain that others don't (except maybe Legion), so I don't really think we're getting all that zipped.

Would giving the UA "granted: hunter" be broken? I'm thinking yes, but man I'd have a lot of fun with it ...

YabaBaga
11-28-2009, 09:31 PM
I would really it if they could fit the 'Wolves of Orboros' title back on Morraig. It would give him a nice interaction with the War Wolves.

Griffin745
11-30-2009, 04:07 PM
Tonight I used a full unit + attachment, they walked through most of a unit of Protectorate Knights Exemplars, the other survived only because I couldn't reach them and I'd lost a chunk of the unit to magical flames and explosions. All very nice. Only problem is the 1" move did nothing, at all. I couldn't do anything after and it just served to get me closer to the counter attack, but not far enough to escape...whoop. Still not complaining, I can see it being helpful for granting more Gang bonuses.

otakud00d
12-01-2009, 01:35 PM
Like we discussed over Vassal, changing the UA to grant Gang and give Overtake/Cleave as a minifeat would help them out so much.

Base unit should have ranked attack.

Bakemono
12-01-2009, 01:44 PM
I'm kind of neutral on the Wolves of Orboros. I didn't ever find any use for them in MKI and I can't forsee any use for them at all in MKII where the ability to wipe infantry up with sponges is even more prevelant. I'm not anti-units. I take lots of specific purpose units, i.e. thing which bring utility to the table. Stones, Druids, and even Reeves (which need +2" of range) or have the War Wolves get Kneel back. The problem with the Wolves of Orboros is that our beasts do combat better. Why on earth would I want a unit with a melee focus when we have the most potent melee models on the board?

Mutton
12-01-2009, 01:46 PM
WoO are there to kill infantry and provide flank to Morraig right now; they can't murder stuff like they could in mk1 with their minifeat. I'm with otakud00d here; it makes them damn spiffy at their job and comparable to the other 4/6 hordes units, of which they are probably the worst right now.

Reemule
12-01-2009, 02:35 PM
I haven't had a problem with them doing as needed. In this case the needed is being cheap infantry killers with some viability on killing the hard stuff.