What do you think about the "flavour"

[Necra-Chi]

One of the big complaints about Mk2 field test for Warmachine was that a lot of "flavour" had gone. Many models had lost characterful abilities that defined them or made them special, and some had changed in nature. Then in the final mk2 a lot of that flavour returned.

Are there any spells/abilities etc that you are sad to see gone, or abilities we now have that in your opinion do not fit the model they are on. Please answer this purely from a fluff/flavour perspective and not form a power level perspective, unless it is to discuss the power implications of putting something back in or losing something.

The one that sprung to mind for me is snare on E-Lylyth. I mean she uses it against Baldur in the Metamorphosis fluff!

What, did she just forget how to snare?

Things like that.

[blitzmonkey]

E-Lylyth losing Elite Cadre Striders is a big *** on my end. Striders and E-Lyl seem made for each other.....seems odd she doesn't boost them at all. I realize the US gives hunter, but it'd still be nice to get something with Lyl.

[Necra-Chi]

There isn't a lot of elite cadre anymore I don't think and even then there usually isn't any stat boost, which frankly the striders, as much as love them, could do with in the RAT department. What would she give them now?

Not giving them an extra shot and her feat not being model/unit is what really hurts them, but those are all power issues so I won't break my own rule by carryon on about that. I like her a lot still, and I liek striders a lot still. I think she should have snare though, because it is "canon".

[blitzmonkey]

There isn't a lot of elite cadre anymore I don't think and even then there usually isn't any stat boost, which frankly the striders, as much as love them, could do with in the RAT department. What would she give them now?

Not giving them an extra shot and her feat not being model/unit is what really hurts them, but those are all power issues so I won't break my own rule by carryon on about that. I like her a lot still, and I liek striders a lot still. I think she should have snare though, because it is "canon".

Maybe Swift Hunter and +1 Rat? Or Snap Fire and +1 Rat?

[Necra-Chi]

No RAT bonus. Either swift hunter or snap fire might be fluffy, but I worry that snap fire is too good on them, and that they can already get swift hunter from deathstalkers.

[blitzmonkey]

No RAT bonus. Either swift hunter or snap fire might be fluffy, but I worry that snap fire is too good on them, and that they can already get swift hunter from deathstalkers.

What about Sniper?

[Necra-Chi]

LOL um.... no.

I like the idea of them getting something she has that isn't too good, like evasive. That would be cool.

Edit: oh wait that's also too good because of the no free strikes.

[Neutralyze]

it doesnt bother me att all really. im sad to see abilities go away but its all a game.

typhon losing 360 arc and minor things like that.

[Necra-Chi]

To be sure there is nothing like Testament not having the omegus in the field test ;)

[Killionaire]

Nobody's elite Cadre is very good anymore. All eStrykers does is let the Stormblades move 5 inches at the start of the game for example.

Only eGoreshade has a brutal one, and that 'cost' him all of his other abilities. If eLylyth gets a good elite cadre, she's going to lose something else big.

[blitzmonkey]

Yeah, after thinking about it for a while.....she doesn't need it. It was me trying to hold onto some fluff. Eh well.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Likely lost 'Elite Cadre Fluff' will be addressed with Theme Lists, when core book is released -- Losing snare, on the other hand, is a shame. Death Sentence traded in for Pin Cushion is unfortunate, as well.

Makes me wonder if Baldur had just been out drinking the night prior...

-s&s

[hairsolo]

Fluff wise its been a bit better then the WM field test. Thagrosh still has his athanc and Valy still has her Oraculus cough *poisoned apple* cough. For some reason Rhyas seems less ninja like to me. In the cheap 80s movies ninjas became invisible and disappeared in a cloud of smoke, they didn't become incorporeal. Plus they could chop through metal roofs, guns and doors which definitely seemed like a 3d6 damage roll to me. Fluff wise Rhyas cut the head of a freaking dragon if thats not weapon master....... what is?

The swordsmen seem a little blah to me. They're weapon masters they're spd 6 they're boring..... What did Cylena Raefyll get away from the blight because she ran away with all the other spd 7 nyss? They dont even have shirts on. That should make them more areodynamic or something... Look at the nyss hunters they're spd 7 and they're carrying all the furniture they fled with on their backs.....

Also why is Ashlynn, a human have 17 def and Rhyas a blighted elven ninja dragon killing hotty only have 16???? Shes a ninja!!!!

[Necra-Chi]

:D Only the fast ones got away before the blight!

[Soulblighter]

Hordes didnt lose nearly as much flavor as Warmachine. In fact I find it strange how sterile and gutted Warmachine MK2 feels compared to Hordes MK2.

[Shadowspite]

Typhon is no longer a blood creation :(

he formed out of Thagrosh's intestines/muscles/blood/flesh! how is he not a blood creation!?

[DevonV]

Typhon is no longer a blood creation :(

he formed out of Thagrosh's intestines/muscles/blood/flesh! how is he not a blood creation!?

Because Blood Creation includes "will not attack Legion warlocks."

Typhon is not dragonspawn. He is a dragon. He has a soul, his own athanc, and he'll eat whomever he pleases.

Half of his mind is Everblight, and this apparently makes him loyal, but the other half is a random Everblight-Pyromalfic blend that gives him his own personality.

Typhon is basically Everblights's offspring. I'm sure daddy will keep a close eye on him and try to keep him out of trouble, but I suppose Typhon still feels the lure of those athanc shards, and in moments of furious rage...

[SteakAndSpirits]

Rhyas Fluff.

While Swordmaster wasn't really that impressive on a model that could buy additional attacks, Weapon Master with Critical Decapitation went a long way towards reinforcing her Martial Prowess. I don't think her current incarnation will necessarily be more or less effective vs. Hordes, I do think that she's missing out on being the whirling blade of death that she used to be.

-s&s

[alchahest]

I really do like the legionnaires - they're excellent for the cost and for what they do.. but they hardly seem to match the elite bodyguard fluff - they're as likely to run away from their own boss as they are to run away from an enemy abomination. perhaps before field test is finished, give ethag elite cadre: legion that grants them fearless when within his command radius? that way you can't just spread them out all over, they have to be close to him to be fearless (and therefore actually guarding him)

dunno. seems like legionnaires are great troops for the cost, but don't align with the fluff enough for me

[SteakAndSpirits]

That'd be sweet. Elite Cadre (Legionnaires): Fearless.

Totally on board with that.

-s&s

[Primus]

Lack of Fearless has always been the Legionnaires' biggest weakness in my book.

[Necra-Chi]

Lack of fearless means virtually nothing in Mk2 if all you want the legionnaires to do is get in the way and spawn incubi, which is what you want them to do. Remember kids. You can run 0" when you flee now ;)

[SteakAndSpirits]

Right. But we're discussing flavor here, not mechanics. :)

-s&s

[Awefaw]

Were you up in arms before?

[alchahest]

I suppose there's nothing stopping your legionnaires from fleeing directly ahead of ethag, either, is there?

[DevonV]

Rhyas Fluff.

While Swordmaster wasn't really that impressive on a model that could buy additional attacks, Weapon Master with Critical Decapitation went a long way towards reinforcing her Martial Prowess. I don't think her current incarnation will necessarily be more or less effective vs. Hordes, I do think that she's missing out on being the whirling blade of death that she used to be.

-s&s

She still has Acrobatics, Perfect Balance, and Decapitation, all the time, and she can boost. She definately flips out, and any trooper or solo that she catches will die. Even light 'jacks will die. What it seems to me they've done is taken away is the whole "Measure control. If enemy caster is in control, win." She can still take out light and medium armor 'casters, but even ninjas have their limits. Unlike Garryth, she doesn't need a charge lane, just someplace to stop. She also still can become as invisible as anything in MK II can. She still says "ninja" to me.


I suppose there's nothing stopping your legionnaires from fleeing directly ahead of ethag, either, is there?

Only all the enemy models thataway. :)

You must flee away from all opposing models.

[SteakAndSpirits]

She still has Acrobatics, Perfect Balance, and Decapitation, all the time, and she can boost. She definately flips out, and any trooper or solo that she catches will die. Even light 'jacks will die. What it seems to me they've done is taken away is the whole "Measure control. If enemy caster is in control, win." She can still take out light and medium armor 'casters, but even ninjas have their limits. Unlike Garryth, she doesn't need a charge lane, just someplace to stop. She also still can become as invisible as anything in MK II can. She still says "ninja" to me.



Only all the enemy models thataway. :)

You must flee away from all opposing models.

Don't get me wrong. I think swapping out Invisibility for Incorporeal was a fantastic move. That has blight-ninja written all over it. But whereas Garryth and Mark I Rhyas are/were Whirling Blades of Death, Rhyas Mark II is, as you said, reserved for light/medium armor targets.

I will miss her ability to cut handily through dragonscales from a thematic standpoint. :)

-s&s

[Neutralyze]

Don't get me wrong. I think swapping out Invisibility for Incorporeal was a fantastic move. That has blight-ninja written all over it. But whereas Garryth and Mark I Rhyas are/were Whirling Blades of Death, Rhyas Mark II is, as you said, reserved for light/medium armor targets.

I will miss her ability to cut handily through dragonscales from a thematic standpoint. :)

-s&s

arcane assassin is the way to get around the hard to kill armor camping warcaster or spell humping warlocks.

rhyas gets AA and she would be golden. the feat should turn back to one placement only and not have to box the mdoel to do so.

[Martyr of the Cause]

I'm pretty straight with the flavor of the MKII Legion.

I do miss Rhyas's swordmaster, but am glad she has straight decapitation now, so I'll have to see if that plays out right or not.

It's a funky one, but I miss that Abyslonia has DEF 15 and ARM 16. Now she's DEF 16 and ARM 14, just like 4 other warlocks we have (counting Shadow Lylyth). I liked that she was just a little different, and had that better raw ARM kicking on her.

I also miss Pin Cushion. I don't see myself casting Death Sentence often, and only see Pursuit being cast once in a while. I find it ironic that Shadow Lylyth can use RAT in place of FURY for magic attacks, and yet has no magic attacks I care to make.

I also miss the crit poison on the Teraph. It didn't come into play often, but it was always fun when it did.

The Archers losing concentrated volley also seems mighty lame. I'm glad I sold my archers a while ago.


That's about it, though. Most everything else that we lost seems like things I can live without. I'm pretty happy about the flavor of the MKII Legion.

[Defenstrator]

One thing that confuses me is all the fire. I thought that Legion would be all about Corrosion to reflect the Blight.

[The Nightwalker]

Or even Ice, since we're north of Khador.

[Necra-Chi]

One thing that confuses me is all the fire. I thought that Legion would be all about Corrosion to reflect the Blight.

Dude we're a faction of dragons.

I just want the fire to STICK! ATM its only a disadvantage, with the exception of E-Thag and Angel.

I think they might be the testing ground for if it would be too heinous to give all the firebreathers crit fire or fire, so please feedback on that!

That little change might be what ends up making the seraph and carnivean really worth it.

Maybe the ones with some pyromalific in them (E-Thag and Typhon) get fire and the others get crit fire?

[ShockwaveIIC]

I think they might be the testing ground for if it would be too heinous to give all the firebreathers crit fire or fire, so please feedback on that!

That little change might be what ends up making the seraph and carnivean really worth it.

Maybe the ones with some pyromalific in them (E-Thag and Typhon) get fire and the others get crit fire?What like all my test opponents have been immune to the Seraphs and Angels range due to being a Jack-wall with safe passage or Khador heavies with Assault Commando back up?

I'll be dismissed as a crying child.

[Necra-Chi]

Please explain.

[Soulblighter]

Fire damage is just another reason to hate Seraphs in MK2. I already had the misfortune of playing vs eFeora.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Played against Raza and couldn't touch his 'jacks due safe passage from the Chior, which I couldn't touch without entering his threat range extensively. I won due to the Protector doing his job with some help from Dark Sentinel.

Today I played a game against Irusk, Just failed short of the Assassination though I didn't actually force him to roll his 4+ tough. the jacks (Kodiak and Destroyer) were typical Khador tough to get through and the Seraphs couldn't Blight Strike the Assault Commandos as they are immune to fire. Markov made short work of the Legionaires (Lucky dice) so most of my Melee was dead.

[Necra-Chi]

Oh I use striders, deathstalkers and incubi to flank and kill choir and vassals etc. Raptors would be good too. Until the protectorate warjacks support dies you have to stall, or get stuck in with heavy warbeasts (by heavy warnbeats I do NOT mean seraphs).

[ShockwaveIIC]

Oh I use striders, deathstalkers and incubi to flank and kill choir and vassals etc. Raptors would be good too. Until the protectorate warjacks support dies you have to stall, or get stuck in with heavy warbeasts (by heavy warnbeats I do NOT mean seraphs).Agreed, but i was just demonstrating how easily shut down Seraphs are due to being a ranged beast with damage type fire. Problem I've got now with Legion is that nothing they have grabs me. Back in the day 2 years ago I was in awe of Rhyas and Thagrosh (Though Thagrosh lost some sparkle was I played him, then their was Epic...) and now, for me, it's all meh all that sparkle is gone.

Though it might be something to do with what i said in the Raza game, "All this white paper on the table makes the game feel all micky mouse" in reference to the cards on the table.

[Jaster]

I'm sad to see a lot of the fluff get smushed down in favor of stream lining, since fluff interacting with game mechanics was a reason I started playing. I'm sure I could rant in a massive block about the various fluff related things I'd miss from MKI to MKII, but I'll focus on Legion for now;

Adelphology I'll miss, even with the more frenzy prone shredders, was just a lot of fun even when it bit me back (or rather, my shredders). Dual shot off Raptors, while I can get over it (Posion makes sense, just takes a bit to get it through my head), the loss of our ranged UA abilities in favor of lesser ones (Always liked the idea of the Strider Trumpet player blowing the horn loud enough to disrupt orders). In a more borad change, that Jaws may no longer preform locks (Liked the idea of a Raek dangling off a Troll arm). The change to Legionnaires Vengeance vs Bladeguard, one is more a counter attack or 'gang up on the enemy while he butchers one of ours', instead of a skillful parry and repose that bladeguard's feel lent to it. And lastly, the change to Fire damage type to all the Ranged attacks (Save Epic Thagroshes, which is Fire and Cold). I've always seen Blightfire more as a green poison / corrision type thing then burning flames, but that may just be me.

[Ravnak]

I think people worry too much about fluff.

Fluff is described as fluff for a reason. Its the padding. The packaging.

If you design your product, get it all nice and shiny, and working well, then you can go crowbar any damn story you like onto it.


If cheetos can tell you the epic story of how a cheetah makes delicious cheese flavoured corn based snacks, I think its quite possible to claim a shredder is a rabid pack animal, with only 50% of the statement made into literal rules.

[Necra-Chi]

There's absolutely no point in playing the game if you don't like the fluff or the models or both. You may as well play chess or something.

When it comes down to it, you play this game because you like the dudes in it.

[Loveless]

Fluff wise Rhyas cut the head of a freaking dragon if thats not weapon master....... what is?


I've gotta say...cutting the head off of anything sounds more like Decapitation than Weaponmaster - which is what Mk. II Rhyas has :p

[alchahest]

There's absolutely no point in playing the game if you don't like the fluff or the models or both. You may as well play chess or something.

When it comes down to it, you play this game because you like the dudes in it.


this right here is very important. I was drawn to legion for the great looking sculpts, and the fluff. warped creations of a seething dragon's heart, leading a nomadic existence in frozen wastelands, setting upon their foes using cunning and speed.

a couple of the bigger flavour things I disagree with are Rhyas and the Legionnaires

the legionnaires are a great unit now and well worth the (low) cost. doesn't feel very elite to me, though. doesn't match with the fluff. that said, they're more likely to be fielded now.

as for Rhyas, she's gained in some places, but lost in others. She's a ninja assassin with a big fancy sword and the skills to pay the bills. a silent hunter of her enemies, able to dash through enemy lines, risking all for a strike on another caster.

she's lost some of this. she's much less capable on her own, and relies way more on having beasts around her.

that said I love decapitation and would rather have it than weaponmaster. but it would be pretty awesome if she had more than one attack. maybe a second initial attack with antiphon, and an additional MAT would bring her a little more in line with her fluff.

[Jaster]

There's absolutely no point in playing the game if you don't like the fluff or the models or both. You may as well play chess or something.

When it comes down to it, you play this game because you like the dudes in it.

Seconding this, as a newer player to the game, and to war-gaming in general, if I didn't see massive steam driven robots marching around and slamming other giant robots into lines of their own men, I wouldn't have looked a second time long enough to see a faction that feels cool. I knew Warhammer was around, and that did nothing for me, and it would have been worse if they where all just "this model does this" and they all looked like big cubes, would be the most drab game ever and I'd go back to chess and root for the Knight like I always did.

A game (any game) can stand on so called fluff a great deal, yes to be great it needs the rules and enjoyable game play to back it, but a game with just solid rules and game play consiting of bricks moving around won't really cause any fan loyaty or connection from a player, and an observer won't bat an eye seeing two people duke it out like they often do when they first see Warmachine / Hordes going.

Too alchahest; Just think of her as a Ninja (who rarely really work alone), dashing through a forest with silent beasts (pull some Raeks along, perhaps some air support and it keeps a good feel).

[aterdaeus]

MK II was a chance to fix the MAT on Rhyas cause, well, she's a NINJA!

And it's still 7. And now not even a weaponmaster?!? FAIL

Fluff - Fail Rules - FAIL

I'll play her again when MK III comes out... maybe.

[blitzmonkey]

MK II was a chance to fix the MAT on Rhyas cause, well, she's a NINJA!

And it's still 7. And now not even a weaponmaster?!? FAIL

Fluff - Fail Rules - FAIL

I'll play her again when MK III comes out... maybe.


Or....you can playtest and submit feedback and try to get it changed.

[aterdaeus]

there's no playtesting in fluff judging :)

[Loveless]

MK II was a chance to fix the MAT on Rhyas cause, well, she's a NINJA!

And it's still 7. And now not even a weaponmaster?!? FAIL

Fluff - Fail Rules - FAIL

I'll play her again when MK III comes out... maybe.

This doesn't make a ton of sense...

If the fluff "fails" - that's a problem with you...and how the heck you can surmise that Rhyas is a ninja without getting as much from the fluff is beyond me. Here's another thing - Saeryn is a ninja, too, but one who's more into her crazy techniques than her face-beating.

If you don't like the rules - well, feedback it.

I'd rather see her with two attacks base than how she is now, just because she should be able to wreck face and I think that's lost a bit.

Weaponmaster I'm iffy on, as Decapitation is pretty solid. It's still a toss up between the options - Decap always, or the old WM+Crit. Decap.

*Shrugs* I dunno, man, the only one of our 'locks I take major issue with is Absylonia - Rhyas feels like a good start to a "Mk. II" Ninja, at least.

[aterdaeus]

Except that a lot of solos have higher MAT's, which doesn't make much since. She's a melee caster and now is subpar at melee. The title of the thread is "what do you think about the flavor" not "how do you feel about the new rules". And to that I say, having a ninja warcaster that is subpar at melee is not good fluff. At least give her anatomical percision or something.

[SteakAndSpirits]

MAT:7 doesn't appear to be 'subpar'. Some Melee WCs/WLs go as low at MAT:6.

-s&s

[Nargacuga]

My proposed fix for her was very fluff-based. Give her Guided Hand [grants an extra die on the effected model/unit's first melee attack roll]. Keep decapitation and give her Critical Brutal Damage.

With guided hand + boost she can roll 4d6 on the attack, and if she hits a critical (very likely) and boosts/charge she will get 4d6 + decap on the damage. Granted, it costs 3 or 4 fury to pull that one attack off, but if she gets it, she will be hitting with almost Butcher-level damage.


It's very fluffy for a ninja assassin caster.