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Battle engines were disappointment stat wise to me, hopefully the colossal jacks have weapons that more reflect their size than the battle engines did. I don't want to waste money on something that I am not going to use like the battle engines. Why buy a good looking expensive sports car if it has a 150 hp 4 cylinder engine in it.
Since they cost twice the points I would assume better stats...
Battle engines were pretty well balanced though as they are useful but not auto includes by any stretch (and a few are below average), I dont want Colossals to be auto include at all. I want them to be good but not so good that they are the first thing I put in every army regardless of caster.
Im sceptically optimistic at this point :)
While i don't have experience with all the BE's. I do own the Khador Gun Carriage. I use it in *almost* every list I make, and I often find it's my MVP in my pSorscha and Strakhov lists. Do you really feel it's they're that disappointing ? I have the opposite experience.
For their points cost they sure need to be better than BE's. The problem with bringing something like the Colossals into the game, and making them huge, hulking monstrosities, is that they have to still be balanced. They costs as much as 2 warjacks and have the hitboxes of two warjacks, therfore they need to be able to perform as well as 2 seperate warjacks would, otherwise they're not even worth buying at all.
Of course it looks like they might just have twice as many weapons as a warjack, and potentially not any stronger. I noticed lots of open fists on the Colossals, which means they might just be hitting for a point or two over their STR, maybe just a P+S 19-20 or so on the melee weapons, and relatively conventional ranged attacks.
The Gun carriage just looks freaking amazing on the table, and people just underestimate how powerful the Cavalry rules are, i think.
I mean trampling around, firing 2 Pow 15 AOE4's which cause Rough Terrain, and then hitting and running, glorious!
I hope they are at least as survivable as two heavies. Two heavies can be in two different places, making the pair more survivable than a single model with the same stats and twice as much health. But we'll see.
Does this really need to be a new thread? There are like a zillionty discussions about this kind of topic in the other Colossals threads in here.
I always found that battle engines served a heap of different roles depending on your play style. For example my brother uses his stormstrider and mainly a block force and to hide his haley behind etc with the added extra of troop clearing.
I generally use my Legion engine for troop clearing and a threat by getting it up on the flank asap which generally makes people feel they need to deal with it (then again pThag does buff it to be P+S 17)
To be perfectly honest I was really happy how balanced they w ere and how they werent an auto include. I really really hope that the upcoming releases arent to powerful so people feel that they need to use them to compete (otherwise you get a GW syndrome where the next big thing is needed to stay on par). That said I doubt PiP would do that I think they worked to long to make the game how it is. On the brightside the release will make me up from 35 pts to 50 pts : )
Their damage grids seemed to indicate roughly two heavy's worth of boxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneblaise
I was actually pretty pleased with the BEs overall. Most seem to have a place in their faction without being autoinclude. The only one I am actually disappointed in is the Wraith Engine. Wish it had some kind of ranged weapon like all the rest. I am getting a Fulcrum for my Circle soon and while I was kind of meh on it at first, the more I think about it, I think I have the potential to find a place for it in certain lists. Not autoinclude, but well balanced and offering me something unusual to my faction.
i don't think any of us want to play a game where you are forced to buy a $150 or whatever model to remain even remotely competitive, it'll be better if colossal are well balanced/over balanced.
I'm interested to see how colossals are balanced so as not to invalidate any choices. In other words, how do you make a model that's effectively a warjack at twice the cost of one, with twice the damage grid of one, while making it different enough to make both colossals and warjacks "good"?
To put it in terms of Khador, How do you make something good enough to spend 5-7 points on top of the cost of the Behemoth, but still make the Behemoth worth taking? How is PP going to avoid the "for 7 points more I could have a Conquest" mindset?
I think the "Great Machine" rules indicate that they've found a good balance. Colossals are going to offer defenses against disruption and outside control that simple warjacks don't, but warjacks can get advance deployment, Stealth, etc.
This. The Gun Carriage is a great battle engine. Mobile, Table Control, and AOE's for anti Infantry. Plus still has a threat in melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Octavius_Maximus
True. I think it MIGHT be the best one. But it still isn't auto include.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsquid
Should it be? I mean auto includes are great but people act like if its not an auto include its bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alviaran
No. Something being good but not an auto-include is good. It means it's balanced. It has it's place in the faction and in some lists. But it doesn't just include into every one of your lists as the first thing after determining your caster (or in some cases, before you even choose your caster...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Draxos
I think the Gun Carriage is fantastic. It has its place and is a great piece. Any Khador player who has invested in one I think definitely gets their money worth. But it isn't so good that they just feel they need to add it to every single one of their lists to be competitive. If a Khador player is adding it to every list, I think it is because they just really like it.
This. Also, Battle Engines are pretty good investments. They are all pretty potent anti-infantry pieces, though they where not well received after the first few trials, people started to get the swing of it and they got pretty useful overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by absent
Maybe its just me but it seems like a good bit of complaints that I've heard have been that its NOT an auto include. (Im refering to all BEs)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alviaran
Wait. So, people are complaining that they're not game breaking and that they mandate the buying of battle engines to stay competitive in tourney's? I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draxos
The only Warmachine complaints I've heard is from Cryx players (even though I think the Wraith engines is ok). I've actually started collected Menoth solely on how cool the battle engine looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draxos
Hordes-wise it is a little trickier as beasts are SO important. On a side note, pp please make the Skorne Colossus decent as I have money set aside for the battle engine that I will not spend on it and it's burning a hole in my pocket.
I'm more worried about my ability to kill a colossal rather than my ability to field one. I already have trouble with high armor models with both of my factions. >.>
The Wraith Engine is pretty bad. The Menoth one is probably the best since it has an easy boost mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathnGlory
Skorne battle engine looks awful on paper and the model is hideous too.
That is the strangest complaint ever. Before they were released, the constant worry was that you were now going to HAVE to spend $85 to stay competitive. That people are unhappy that they don't have to do that is just...odd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draxos
The only way this makes any sense is that they spent $85 and now want their expensive toy to be broken. But I think almost all of them are great investments. Just not great EARLY investments for people new to the game and the faction (ie, fill out your other choices a bit before buying a BE)
I am a Cryx player. I have a painted Wraith Engine. He now comes out to play Scaverous theme lists since I can't Fate Weaver him anymore. Oh well. Still an excellent model and mine is fully painted (I think I could almost do fully painted Scaverous T3 if I wanted which makes me pretty happy)Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathnGlory
I think Gators are the only faction with almost no recourse against high ARM (and I see you are a Gator player). Mine can't crack it either. I'm hoping the next book brings some new toys. Cygnar though doesn't have a problem with it if they are smart about it. Loading up an army with POW10s doesn't get the job done. But Stormclads do. Even those forsaken Stormblades can put a real hurt on something like this on a charge (and they can all get in on it in melee with a base that big!). Might see the return of Sword Knights to the table with flank (Sword Knights, Stormblades, Stormclad = Armour busting IMO).Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfhoot
It is definitely gonna' take a lot of resources to put these things down though. My biggest fear is that if someone DOES manage to trash it in one good turn, how much of a swing that could potentially be. But I am optimistic. I'm not TOO excited about the Kraken (for the name alone if nothing else...I'm waiting for the first person to shout that at a con to get sockjacked) but I AM super excited for the Judicator. Don't care what anyone says. I like the flaming nipples. That thing is going to be a thing of beauty and I cannot wait to drop it on the table.
First, Complaining that Gators cannot crack armor is like complaining Magnus theme is crippled in tournaments due to lack of fearless. You have pacts, and Pigs deal with armor just fine.
Second, sockjacking is a thing of the past, Page 5 now requires sockcolossaled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alviaran
This is also less of a tournament discussion in that sense. If a gator player complains about having weaknesses in a tournament, I will point to the pigs. But to a casual gator player, not being able to crack armour means that he if he plays the local Karchev player for a random game, it's a roflstomp and plainly not fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaster
Minions are different from mercs in this because they are two discrete mini-factions. Mercs have a lot of overlap across the contracts.
I have big shoes, but my socks aren't THAT big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaster
I think a lot of this disappointment results from false expectations. People expected Battle Engines to be what Colossals are likely going to be, i.e. 20-point monstrosities dominating the table. What they got was stuff half as effective, and that alone disappointed them enough so as to completely forget that they're, in fact, also half as costly.
I love my Gun Carriages. They're great fun to play, and I've found them effective as well. But I still find leaving them out of my lists more often than not. Partly because of logistical restrictions - If I go to a two-list tournament, my Army Transport runs out of space. Not having my own car limits my list building... Partly because Khador still has so many other, equally awesome toys to bring.
I'm glad they errata'd Skarre2's feat. That means I don't have to buy two Wraith engines. I'll probably still buy one eventually.
As to the "why take Behemoth if I could pay 7 points more to get a Konquest?" It's because 7 points buys a Juggernaut, or minimum Kayazy Assassins with UA, or Yuri and two manhunters, etc. It'll equally be a question of "why take Konquest if I could have Behemoth and Kayazy assassins for the same price?"
Depending on what Konquest can actually do, it may be better for some casters (those who buff a single model effectively) and less effective for others (those that buff armies). One thing we already know it's better at - it looks like a freaking giant steam-powered robot with huge guns! That alone makes it worthwhile in my eyes.
The one and only thing that I'm seriously hoping for with the Colossals is them being interesting. I desperately don't want a statline with some weapons on it, however powerful - I want these things to be more of a playstyle choice than just a bigger, better jack. Thankfully the Stormwall's lightning pods look like exactly the sort of thing I'm hoping for, and I play the WM faction (Cryx) that looks likely to get the weirdest one anyway. The Conquest looks like it may be the most straightforward, which fits Khador's theme, but I really hope the others each have some novel mechanic going on.
With Conquest, im looking forward to put fire for effect on that gigantic turret.
BEs a general dissapointment? hmmm, i cant agree to that. the khador and menoth engines are awesome. ret looks interesting and cygnar aint that bad as well. concerning the cryx be, i m not sold on melee BEs. therefore i dont like cryx, legion and skorne BEs (have not seen t in play, but i would have no idea what to do with it). the shooty ones, especially those that can boost regularily are quite good choices. pp did a job with the BEs. new type of model, which did not turn the game around. they actually created more versatility, which is a good thing.
i hoipe they will do a comparable good job when it comes to the rules and stats of colossals.
agree with the paper part, but the looks are a thing of personal preference. to me it looks quite good. i liked the art work i like the model!Quote:
Skorne battle engine looks awful on paper and the model is hideous too.
The Tongue of Everblight :p battle engine has been shown to actually be pretty good with pThagrosh. With Spiny Growth and Death Shroud, they are an effective ARM23 vs melee attacks, and any jack/beast attacking them is going to ***** themselves to death. Plus, with draconic blessing they become P&S17.Quote:
Originally Posted by Circle noob
Eh...definitely personal preference. But I have a problem with most howdahs. Especially needlessly tall ones. But that is definitely a personal thing. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Circle noob
To be perfectly honest, my biggest fear is that they might go out of their way to make sure that they're not overpowered and, as a result, they'll end up being a bit underpowered. Completely unfounded, but it's my fear none the less.
I agree, but if it's to be the lesser of two evils I'd prefer slightly underpowered to slightly overpowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sobek
Well when BE's first came out, I'm pretty sure the reaction was "*** are these, they're poop, I'm just taking a 'jack/'beast for those points AND it makes fury/whatever warjacks do".
Now BE's are (for quite a few factions) being seen more and more, they're not auto includes (I hate autoincludes, esp. when the models are poopy), but people are finding niche's for them. And that's what a new unit type should do, fill a niche, you might not want that niche every game, but when you do need it you can stick a carriage/very suggestively shaped tower in your list and go banana's.
What niche a 20pt gun platform with focus could fill....no idea, we'll have to wait and see :D.
At 18-20 points, being even slightly underpowered is going to be incredibly important, because of the size of the point investment - heck, for a 15 point game, it's your *entire army*, and for a 35 point game, it's roughly half of it. All your opponent has to do is field nothing but reasonably balanced models, and the power gap will really show itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by scout's honor
PP *has* to walk a razor's edge with these things, simply due to the point cost. A slightly underpowered colossal is virtually instantaneously an autodrop, and a slightly overpowered one an autoinclude, which I think none of us want. Even with perfectly balanced ones, because different casters have different ways to affect their warjacks, you're virtually guaranteed to either hit autoinclude or autodrop status with some casters (the same as is true of any warjack in any faction - no warjack is universally a good idea among its faction's casters, possibly excepting Deathjack and I'm quite confident you can find at least one Cryx caster who has no use for him). For example, it is inescapably true that Konquest will be better under pVlad than pSorscha.
I am confident in PP's ability and willingness to ship an underpowered huge based model, as they've already done so with the Animantarax. I see no reason to doubt their claims that colossals will not be autoincludes. I just sincerely hope that they manage to nail perfect balance in every Colossal, because as I said, even slight imbalance will be magnified by the colossal (hah!) point cost.
I think quindraco nailed it. I also think that the interaction between Colossals and faction mechanics will be a big factor in how PP perceives whether a model is 'overpowered' or 'underpowered'; I can see its power rating being justified at something slightly less than '2 warjacks' if PP believes that a corps of mechanics dumping 10 boxes back into one every turn gives it unfounded longevity.
That said, I think that Colossals do need to be 'overpowered' (in the sense that the B13 is 'overpowered' for 4 points and the Titan Gladiator is 'overpowered' for an 8 point heavy beast) because in a game of assasssination, mobility, and game-changing debuffs, the amount of force concentration a Colossal represents is a liability.
I think I over stated it just a bit but a lot of people wanted their Battle Engines to be amazing and when they weren't they went to "auto crap" mode; which pisses me off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alviaran
Maybe the problem is that they don't compare well to all of the stuff that is an autoinclude?Quote:
Originally Posted by Draxos
Sockjacking lost a lot of its impact when jacks went plastic. The colossals are going to be resin mostly as well.Quote:
Second, sockjacking is a thing of the past, Page 5 now requires sockcolossaled
Just makem death jack good at their size I will be happy
I love my battle engines. My AFG and Storm Strider have both been valuable models in my stable of options.
I hope to say the same about any Colossals I purchase.
Is anything else relevant?