Gobbers

[BunniRabbi]

I've never gotten to see the rulebook, or any supplement, for Iron Kingdoms, but I'm looking to create a faction book for Warmachine based around gobber mercenaries. Is there much info on Gobbers' in any of the IK books? I wasn't sure if they were an important part of the setting or not, but if they've detailed their history or culture, I should probably read up on that for this project.

[HerrDeux]

The most comprehensive info on gobbers is in the IK Character Guide, which would be easiest to get on PDF through a site that I think is called DriveThruRPG or something like that.

If you go to the Forums Privateer Press Discussion, you'll see a Sticky for No Quarter issues and what's in them. There have been a few supplementary articles related to gobbers in No Quarter. Five Fingers Port of Deceit also has some info on gobbers, though it's more particular to the somewhat unique gobber culture in Five Fingers itself, as I don't think that gobbers have commonly built rickety Rigs above districts in other cities.

For the back issues of No Quarter, I think PP is still have a sale of $1/issue on most of their back issues. Pretty screaming deal, though some of the first ones are out of print.

[Iron_Peanut]

Getting hyped for the upcoming IKRPG, I've been looking through the old minis range, and was thinking about Gulgrenvogulugken for a while. All of the gobber models currently in Warmahordes have abysmal statlines, and it would be really interesting to see a combat-oriented gobber model. Maybe an assassin type of guy like Gul, or maybe an aggressive anti-jack bodger with the 3.5 Jackwrench ability (like Sneak Attack, but for constructs).
I've just now thought of it! New character Merc unit: Gobber Scrappers: they got giant two-handed wrenches with Erosion, Gang Fighter and crit Scramble. They charge a warjack and tear it apart piece by piece! They're CMD 3 and flee in terror when not under the watchful eyes of a Commander! Hilarious! Six-man unit, use the designs from the Bodgers line. Tremendous crossover potential! PP, synergize your revenue streams!

[pgmason]

I'd absolutely buy that unit!

[Whimper]

Here's what you need to know about gobbers, in a nutshell.

1. There are two breeds of goblin: Gobbers, smaller and smarter; and Bogrin, larger and more war-like.
2. They do not all share the same degree of 'civilization': both gobbers and bogrin have nomadic variants that live in the wild and scavenge, hunt, and raid for their livelihood. And both have considerably more advanced social groupings who either reside in towns and cities, or in their vicinity as traders and workers alongside humans.
3. Their skin changes colour, like a chameleon's.
4. They have a knack for alchemy, and bodging together useful creations from other races' cast off refuse and old scrap.

[Sosthenes]

5. Bogrin are mammals.
6. Bogrin fight all the time.
7. The purpose of a Bogrin is to flip out and kill people.

[captainspud]

8. Gobbers have nipples.

[PPS_Simon]

Who's the leak? Where did you guys get the early draft of Iron Kingdoms Roleplaying Game - Gobbers: Real Ultimate Power?

[novakidx]

I was always interested in gobbers, and when you think about it...they DO have their own game series!
sure they could be on the tabletop more, and i'm sure it'll come in time.

[Sosthenes]

To be honest, I'm a bit fed up with mechanically-inclined greenskins. It was fun when Warhammer did it, already was a bit of a cliche when Warcraft copied it, and while the IK gobbers aren't quite that bad, it *is* getting a bit old. Which is why I'm glad when gobbers remain in the "Igor" role, i.e. as servants or co-workers of human mechanics/mechaniks. A bit of an underclass, but thematically not far removed from a human taking that role. Not just self-immolating comic relief.

Which is why all-goblin factions/units would probably make things turn out for the worse. I don't really want to see bodged together gobber artillery (again).

All bets are off for proper Bogrin, of course. As we learned from Dark Sun, any pint-sized race can instantly be improved by making them vigorously carnivorous. Or in other words: They're totally sweet.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Psst, Sosthenes... IK Gobbers pre-date WoW Goblins by several years

-Rick

[Ogrob]

Psst, Sosthenes... IK Gobbers pre-date WoW Goblins by several years

-Rick

But Warcraft goblins have been running around with dynamite and flying zeppelins since at least Warcraft II. Which is from 1995.

[Sosthenes]

Do I need to feel old now?

[BunniRabbi]

Iron Peanut > Hey, if you wan to create an entry for the book, I'd welcome the help.


Whimper> "3. Their skin changes colour, like a chameleon's."
Do they control that and how drastic a change is it? Is it something that could or should effect game stats? Does the ability vary between individuals?


Sosthenes> "7. The purpose of a Bogrin is to flip out and kill people."
Is that a social construct or a narrative one?

Also, would you be more inclined to a darker take on Gobbers or a more in-depth one? I was wondering if I should write up some sort of surprising theology or philosophy that inclines the Gobbers to their place in the world. Perhaps a secret agenda? All non-canon of course, but should anyone want to use it for IK then it might give interesting possibilities.

I'm noticing there seems to be a naming convention for the Gobbers related to having long and difficult names that have a short-hand version which is easy to pronounce.

An important issue: Can Gobbers be warcasters?

[Sosthenes]

Gobbers can have arcane talent, and while they're not very common, gobber gunmages and arcane mechaniks do exist, so there's nothing about their inherent connection to magic itself ("unlocked" by Dhunia) that seems to preempt bonding with machinery. So them having warcaster talent seems possible. Now, that talent only seems to be the very first step and a lot of training has to be done, so I'm not sure whether they can actually end up as proper Warcasters. Maybe we need some kind of prestige class that is similar to Warcasters but is more suited for a bodger/(sorcerer|gunmage) approach.

Regarding a darker take on gobbers, I don't think that's really needed. The bogrin take care of that a bit, but generally "wild" goblins can be more cruel and "dark" than people would recognize from their civilized brethren. But that's basically true for any tribal societies. What I would find interesting is where the distinction lies between gobbers and boggers. Is it really that much a thing of lineages, or could it be some kind of genetic versatility? So if the terrain is more suited to hunters and generally a bit more dangerous, tribes will turn into what we call bogrin within only a few generations? And maybe the gobber/bogger dichotomy is only the tip of the iceberg here, where we have a surprisingly high genetic malleability and adaptability. We do know that the goblins of Five Finger are better climbers, and even your normal gobber shows a surprising capability with rather modern technology and alchemy. Sure, that's mostly due to a good sense of smell, nimble fingers and a high curiosity, but who's saying that those traits aren't showing up faster than just by normal natural selection. I'm definitely *not* proposing "mutants", third arms etc., but subgroups with different skill or even attribute bonuses might happen. Goblins as Immoren's poster children for evolution would fit in nicely with Dhunian reincarnation beliefs.

Whether one is going that route or not, I see the goblins as on the brink of a "new age", by moving in with the humans, adapting technology, etc. Which is why I'd find it easier to imagine an almost messianic belief in civilization and technology, than something darker. But all tintend in a Dhunian light, apart from the few Cyrissists, or the splinter group who think that they're one and the same, mother and daughter or some kind of co-equal divine beings (whatever the two-God version of a trinity is called). I'm picturing a weird mixture of tribal gatherings and masonic lodges, all set in scrapyards and abandoned buildings…

[BunniRabbi]

I'd be interested in creating some sort of 'wild talent' version of a warcaster. The equivalent of a self-taught warcaster, perhaps only getting part of the rules. Maybe basing them on the journeyman warcaster in the Cygnar range.

It seems I need to read up on the setting a lot. I've never heard of Dhunia. It'll be hard to get any funds together to actually buy the books though, and hard to justify it with the fact that I'll only be using a small portion of them.

Are there any images of bogrin out there?

[Sosthenes]

There's a bit about Dhunia on the official web site. Your basic earth mother…

Not very picture-heavy, but Buccaneer Bass has one bogrin image…

As I've said before, official reporting and imagery is severely biased towards their lame brothers…

*fnordandthebogrinsservingmightylordtorukwillmakeu spayforthisfnord*

[FrankJaeger]

(whatever the two-God version of a trinity is called)

Duality?

tenchars

[novakidx]

can someone answer this question for me?
I dunno if I'm reading the book wrong, but I don't see any race specification for a bodger (class).
I always assumed gobbers were the only bodgers [repairmen].
or am I correct. I mean I know there are repairmen in WM, and i'm pretty sure the only repair class is bodger. I just can't imagine a human digging through garbage and repairing junk (I mean that literally).

[Sosthenes]

Duality?

Probably, although the more common dualistic principles imply some opposition or even antagonism. And often quite separate entities. Which we already have with the Devourer and Dhunia.

I could imagine someone believing that both Cyriss and Dhunia are just two ways of looking at the same divine experience, especially if you're a bit beyond the anthropomorphic view.

I always assumed gobbers were the only bodgers [repairmen]

Don't know where you got this from. Bodgers from the different countries are explicitely mentioned in the class the and there's no reason to believe that we're talking about gobbers of e.g. Khadoran extraction here.

The IKWG lists 3 bodgers in its appendix, two Thurian, one gobber.

[Iron_Peanut]

I always assumed gobbers were the only bodgers [repairmen].
or am I correct. I mean I know there are repairmen in WM, and i'm pretty sure the only repair class is bodger.

In the 3.5 IKRPG, "Bodger" is the name for the non-magical (as opposed to the Arcane Mechanik) mechanical specialist class. I think that what makes a bodger from that game standpoint is different from what people in the Iron Kingdoms think of when they talk about a bodger. When someone is referring to a person with levels in the Bodger class, they might call that person a bodger, or they might call them an engineer, a mechanik, a repairman, a railman, or a steamo depending on what those people do professionally and how they do it. A PC who has the Bodger class might also use any these words to describe themselves.
I think that there is a specific context for the phrase "bodger" in-universe, though. A bodger is a mechanical specialist who lacks a formal or institutional training and instead performed maintenance through intuition, improvisation, and a holistic "duct tape and spit" approach. Bodgers specialize in jury-rigged and improvised short-term repairs, scavenging and refurbishing discarded equipment.

I think that the pervasive undercurrent of gobber discrimination would have most humans assume that any gobber with his hands inside of an engine is a bodger, when in fact that gobber may have been formally trained.
A pragmatist wouldn't care either way - a bodger might not have an orthodox approach, he might not know what a given tool is even named, but his results are as good or better than a union-certified Steamo.

Of couse, if that Steamo saw the perfectly functional laborjack with its pneumatic hosing tear secured with sailboat canvas saturated in fish paste (learned this trick from my cousin, works great), with a hose running from the main boiler to the wrist to compensate for a underperforming piston (too busy with work orders to requisition new piston), with a sack full of rocks tied to one leg to offset a cortex issue with balancing (way cheaper than hiring a cortex repair consultant), and with a small box latched onto the side of the smokestack to permit the bodger to use the waste heat from the engine to reheat his lunchtime favorite eel pies (don't knock the eel pies until you've tried them), he would likely get real upset.

[Whimper]

can someone answer this question for me?
I dunno if I'm reading the book wrong, but I don't see any race specification for a bodger (class).
I always assumed gobbers were the only bodgers [repairmen].
or am I correct. I mean I know there are repairmen in WM, and i'm pretty sure the only repair class is bodger. I just can't imagine a human digging through garbage and repairing junk (I mean that literally).

Shorter answer: You need to broaden your imagination to be able to include humans digging through scrap to repair junk. My own (assuredly human) father does that as a hobby, for example.

There is no race specification for bodgers in the IK.

[BunniRabbi]

Thanks for pointing out the deitys' page.

A pair of divinities is a Dichotomy. The clergy-to-be over here should have caught that one earlier. With deities, they don't have to be opposites or antagonistic, but typically either are or become so over time. Humans have a tendency to place things in opposition when there are pairs.

Four deities is a quadrant. After that they usually just say pantheon.

[novakidx]

Ah. Well thanks for that clarification!

[StJason]

Thanks for pointing out the deitys' page.

A pair of divinities is a Dichotomy. The clergy-to-be over here should have caught that one earlier. With deities, they don't have to be opposites or antagonistic, but typically either are or become so over time. Humans have a tendency to place things in opposition when there are pairs.

Four deities is a quadrant. After that they usually just say pantheon.

Problem is, that almost all the IK deities represent the same religion. Menites don't say that Morrow doesn't exist, that Dhunia isn't there. Just that it's proper for humans to focus on His Fireyness.

[Sosthenes]

I'd say there's a very vague concept of a common mythological background, one often not known to the majority of believers. I definitely wouldn't call it the same religion…

[StJason]

Sure it is.

What does St. Peter do with Vishnu? Absolutely nothing. They aren't the same religion.

What does The Wurm do with Menoth? Battle. What does the Wurm do with Dhunia? Rape. What does Menoth do with Morrow? Admonish. What does Morrow do with Tharmar? Debate. The human gods (+ Dhunia) are very interactive. Just as the Egyptians don't have a story about when Osirus met Grandfather Coyote, so too with the human pantheon.

Now, it's pretty unclear how the Dwarven/Elven gods interact with humanities. From all appearances, they are a completely different religion.

Also unclear is where the human god Cyriss fits in. I have a pet theory that Morrow-Tharmar is one axis, Menoth-Wurm is a second, and the third is Dhunia (nature) - Cyriss (technology). But that is pure conjecture on my part.

[Sosthenes]

Sure it is.

What does St. Peter do with Vishnu? Absolutely nothing. They aren't the same religion.

So you'd say all the Abrahamic religions plus their infinite sects are one religion?

I'm not saying that you couldn't fit all the divine beings into one framework and call that the true history of the world. But that would be a player-side background thing, there's little to no indication that even a single group of people in the IK believes that (and then probably scholars and not actual priests).

Dhunia serves as an anthropomorphic view of Caen itself. She's definitely not required for a Menite belief system. The Wurm as antagonist itself suffices. And then, you don't really need to grant him the right of being called a "god" – the devil of christianity isn't one, Ahriman isn't, Surtr isn't. And let's better not talk about Morrow and Thamar. I'd have no trouble describing the Menite faith as monotheistic (especially its Protectorate variant).

Morrow and Thamar are basically the christianity/buddhism to Menoth's judaism/hinduism. Sure, Menoth is still a god there, but that (and he) hardly matters.


Personally, I wouldn't even want to analyze the background too much. Sure, some common history of Wurm-raping-Dhunia, Menoth-hunting-Wurm, Morrow/Thamar emancipating, Cyriss reappearing when she's needed etc. can make sense, but we get little from such a Unified Divine Theory. I'd rather leave it open, and ascribe most of the interaction of the gods to the interpretation of some believers. Thus also leaving a small backdoor for proper science

[novakidx]

Upon re watching a video on the myths of warmachine. Doug said that the rumor is that the eleven gods looked at humans and basically said "we can do better" and made elves.
They also noticed the whole soul war going on and wanted their own stake.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHD_w_gVJA] around 19 minutes in.

[Sosthenes]

Ooh, didn't know that video, thanks. There goes my next hour…

[StJason]

So you'd say all the Abrahamic religions plus their infinite sects are one religion?

False equivilancy. Do all three religions have the story of Noah and the Arc? Do the Morrowians believe that Menoth created man, fought the Wurm?
Actually, thinking it through, the comparison to the Abrahamic faiths is actually quite apt. Just as Christianity is a later variant on Judiam, so Morrowism is a later variant of Menothism.

But that would be a player-side background thing, there's little to no indication that even a single group of people in the IK believes that (and then probably scholars and not actual priests).

...save for all the fluff bits where learned scholars in-world debate whether Tharmar tricked Menoth into letting humanity have The Gift. Or the priest in Ternon Crag who preaches a hybrid religion. As far as I can tell from everything I've read, the people of Western Immoren don't deny that Menoth created man. They just may attend Morrowan services, and believe that by achieving the utmost, you can ascend to Ascendanthood.

Personally, I wouldn't even want to analyze the background too much. Sure, some common history of Wurm-raping-Dhunia, Menoth-hunting-Wurm, Morrow/Thamar emancipating, Cyriss reappearing when she's needed etc. can make sense, but we get little from such a Unified Divine Theory. I'd rather leave it open, and ascribe most of the interaction of the gods to the interpretation of some believers. Thus also leaving a small backdoor for proper science

Problem is that gods aren't some abstract unknown save for true believers in the IK. They physically exist. When Menoth came back and found humanity worshiping ancestors and the Wurm and whatnot, he didn't send a storm or bad luck to cast them down. He physically took His hands and physically tore open the walls. The Ascendants were real, live people. The Elven and Dwarven gods physically lived with their people (and now one physically exists hidden away in Khador). Then, there is the very physical presence of Toruk.
One thing to make sure you don't bring from this world/setting: The science/faith devide. With the possible exception of the Protectorate sect of Meninsm, Gods don't have an issue with you exploring the world. Nor does scientific study deny the very real, very physical existance of the very real Gods who might just tap you on the shoulder and point out that you misspelled 'ridiculous' in your treatise on the non-existence of deities.

[Sosthenes]

Actually, thinking it through, the comparison to the Abrahamic faiths is actually quite apt. Just as Christianity is a later variant on Judiam, so Morrowism is a later variant of Menothism.

They're still separate belief systems (religions) with some non-reconcilable differences.
We have to draw a line between what people believe and what's actually "out there".

...save for all the fluff bits where learned scholars in-world debate whether Tharmar tricked Menoth into letting humanity have The Gift. Or the priest in Ternon Crag who preaches a hybrid religion. As far as I can tell from everything I've read, the people of Western Immoren don't deny that Menoth created man. They just may attend Morrowan services, and believe that by achieving the utmost, you can ascend to Ascendanthood.

Morrowism and Menitism (?) are probably the closest, but we started this debate about Dhunia. Now, we do have the Devourer Wurm as connective "tissue" between those two systems, but what about the actual believers? Is Dhunia mentioned in the Enkheiridion or the writings of Menoth himself?

Problem is that gods aren't some abstract unknown save for true believers in the IK. They physically exist.

And Warcasters sling around lightning. Powerful beings exist, no doubt. We might as well call some of them gods (which one is a matter of faith and various inquisitions). And people saw some things what they did. That doesn't mean that everything set in the very distant past has to be right, not every legend and myth can be true, as some of them contradict each other. Especially when it gets very abstract (Dhunia == Caen etc.).

Most of the stuff written in the game supplements is from the point of view of mortal worshipers, about what they believe. There's a lot of stuff kept intentionally vague. Heck, we don't even know which Twin ascended first (or the true role of Ascendants), never mind stuff that goes back to the creation of all things. It wouldn't be hard to come up with some Däniken-like "Ancient Astronaut" crapola and still be able to explain the fact that the elves saw their gods and Scrutators can immolate non-believers.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

Some people are getting religion mixed up with cosmology. While our setting has many religions, it also has a cohesive all-embracing cosmology within which all of our gods, the realm of the afterlife, the realm of the living, and the souls that cross between exist. But making things interesting and contentious, we have a variety of gods and almost-gods, not all of whom appear to interact with Caen and Urcaen the same way. Added to this, our cosmology is not fully understood by the actual inhabitants of our setting. Some individuals (theologians) spend their lives attempting to make sense of this cosmology, but it seems unlikely they will ever fully succeed. Hard enough to gain a perfect understanding of how the world itself operates, let alone trying to make sense of the afterlife and the affairs of the gods (particularly when you can't actively observe either one). Our religions and creation myths contain intentional contradictions and apparent paradoxes. In other words, our religions do not necessarily agree on how a broader cosmology should be defined, and have a number of sometimes contentious specific points of disagreement.

Despite these difficulties, certain theories seem to have gained ground and points of commonality exist between these faiths. For example, theologians have come to accept the notion that Urcaen is large enough to encompass all the domains of the gods on Caen, even those of pantheons like the elves and the dwarves. The theory is these exist at some distance from one another and may have very little interaction with one another, while others (like those of Menoth, Morrow, and Thamar) are in closer proximity and have greater interaction.

Also worth considering is that even when religions disagree, it is not always a matter of one side being "right" and the other being "wrong. Take the topic of the afterlife. The fact that Dhunians reincarnate does not invalidate the spiritual afterlife of Morrowans. These appear to be different systems, both existing simultaneously. It seems that what happens after death is complicated and variable. It also seems evident the realm of the gods is not unalterable and unchanging and how things used to be is not always the same as how they are now. (Just ask the elves! Or rather, don't. Conversations with the elves about their afterlife prospects are generally depressing, dangerous, or both.)

Regarding the concept of elves having been possibly created as a reaction to humanity, this has been a part of our background for some time. It was most recently included in the Forces of WARMACHINE: Retribution of Scyrah book on p. 22. Before this it was mentioned in the IKCG on p. 245-246 (a bit more vaguely).

Either way it is true our world appears to be inhabited by different pantheons of gods that are accepted to coexist and inhabit the same reality, even if not always comfortably. A better mythological comparison is the relationship between the Aesir, Vanir, and various giants among the Norse myths. (These forces variously being friendly with one another or at war and having an actual sense of an evolving history rather than existing stagnantly.)

[novakidx]

Regarding the concept of elves having been possibly created as a reaction to humanity, this has been a part of our background for some time. It was most recently included in the Forces of WARMACHINE: Retribution of Scyrah book on p. 22. Before this it was mentioned in the IKCG on p. 245-246 (a bit more vaguely).

Thanks for the source. I've been thinking of getting the Scyrah Forces book just for the fluff for a while.
I also love how this topic went from Gobbers to Religion in the IK.

[Sosthenes]

(Just ask the elves! Or rather, don't. Conversations with the elves about their afterlife prospects are generally depressing, dangerous, or both.)

Sigh, there goes another one of my Elvish pickup lines?

[The Happy Anarchist]

They are definitely different religions. The primary reason that different religions in our world don't exist within the same cosmology is that no one has actual proof of the existence of their various deities. There is a level of plausable deniability within our world that allows various people to disbelieve everyone else's god(s).

That doesn't exist in the IK and thus they really do have different ways of looking at it.

That said, sharing a cosmology does not make two religions part of the same religion. You could believe and worship the Satan of Christianity, but that certainly wouldn't make you a Christian. Sharing a cosmology is not even a prerequisite of the same religion, for example there are a wide variety of Christian religions that have remarkably different cosmologies from each other, same thing goes for a lot of the varieties of Judaic religion, particularly in the Middle Ages.

So, in summary - Sharing cosmology =/= same religion. Different cosmology =/= different religion. They are two separate ideas with some overlap.

[BunniRabbi]

So, in summary - Sharing cosmology =/= same religion. Different cosmology =/= different religion. They are two separate ideas with some overlap.

Very true. In my faith, we explicitly accept *any* cosmology, including weather or not a person believes in god. Our shared religious community, rituals and practices is actually what makes us a specific religion.

For Gobber purposes, this means there could be a Gobber religion that focuses on Dhunia, but is distinct from other followers of Dhunia. Some sort of interesting philosophical take on Dhunia, and their own practices, would make for a good background for both the wargame and the rpg.