Sanctjud's Bane Knight Spotlight.

[Sanctjud]

Sanctjud's Thoughts on Bane Knights.

?Accompanied by an icy wind and a charnel smell, bane knights glide across the battlefield sowing blood and death.?
-Forces of Warmachine, Cryx.

Bane Knights are the ?other? banes. One of the first things I would like to make clear is the following. Although they share many similarities in name and weapon master, the Bane Thralls and Bane Knights are different units and have different roles and uses. Neither is better than the other and BOTH are welcomed in any list.

If you want a versus thread, you are better off in these two threads:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...s-bane-thralls
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...v-Bane-Thralls

Bane Knights are deceptive in speed, although they are not Khador slow, the speed looks worse than it really is. Their MAT is a standard joe, able to hit def 13 on average. Their DEF is on the low side, equaling Bane Thralls, but the Knights get an additional point of ARM, to somewhat make up for losing out on stealth. Offensively, the Knights lose out on Dark Shroud, but they are still Weapon Masters and still do terrible damage given the chance.

One of the biggest factors to any hesitation to using Bane Knights is their points costs. Each Bane Knight is one point each. But their cost is justified.
Simply, Bane Thralls are Hammers, while you pay a premium for Bane Knights who are scalpels.

How are they scalpels? This is due to the unique combination of Vengeance and Ghostly. In built ghostly is a big deal. It saves 3 focus from a Ghost Walk caster or the activation of a Skarlock or Saxon. As you can read, Ghostly allows them nearly complete freedom of movement. In addition, Vengeance is a consolation prize for suffering casualties. These two rules combined makes for their deceptive ?slow? speed. Nothing gets in their way, and they get a few inches of movement after suffering casualties.

Reach?prob. one of the top 5 best rules in Warmachine and they have it. Reach can be used in so many ways both offensively and defensively. Offensively it allows you an extended threat range and allows for more models to gang up on a single model (say a warjack). Defensively, they OWN a lot of area of the board, preventing shooting when engaged and have an easier time forcing freestrikes.

Ghostly couples with Vengeance very well. You have the freedom to move almost anywhere with no fear of free-strikes during your normal activation and during vengeance moves. This means that pressing forward into the enemy army is a safe deal with Vengeance or repositioning for better charge targets.

Take note of all the casters who do not have access to Ghost Walk to help their army to mitigate terrain (if they can?t themselves):
pGaspy, eGaspy, pSkarre, eSkarre, pShade, eShade, Terminus, Morti (for units), Venny?all these casters benefit hugely from the inherent Ghostly the Bane Knights have. To be fair, these casters do have the option for paying for the services of Saxon.

Ghostly is quite straight forward, so we need to focus on Vengeance. First read will have to be here, totally have to give nosrek mad props for posting his: Opening Strategy: Parting the Red Sea:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...hlight=parting
What you want to take away from the read, is the usage of vengeance, reach, and positioning.

One of the first things you want to do with Bane Knights is bait the Vengeance. Here is the point where opponent reactions muddy up any simple explanation.

The counter to Vengeance comes in two forms:
A. They ignore the unit and wait for a better position to
B. Kill the whole unit in one go (at least 80%)

This can be seen as a win/win for the Cryx forces. To kill 8-10 Bane Knights takes resources, and with proper positioning you may draw forward elements to reach Knights further back. Or best case scenario, they don?t kill them and you get to run them again.

To bait, you need to present 2-3 Bane Knights as far forward as possible. You need to present a few that can run amuck if left alive, and few enough to not mind the casualties.
Keeping a few behind 3? the front rank is a good for Vengeance and AOE?s. You want to set up the unit in a few ?waves? depending on how wide of an area they are trying to threaten.

Now, Vengeance is nice, but how about in timed events? Vengeance eats the time of the player which is limited. This is true, but my suggestion (which echo?s others) is to make MEANINGFUL use of Vengeance. Just move and attack with the front rank of knights?only make Vengeance attacks against lower DEF infantry and not the impossible kind of DEF?s.

Target Preference for the Bane Knights is pretty free.
Due to Vengeance, they can have quite a few attacks to focus on infantry, and with charging weapon masters, they hurt jacks/beasts well enough. Obviously the preferred target is Low DEF and Middling ARM, generally medium types.
With quantity of attacks, they are allowed to go after all kinds of infantry/jacks?reach and vengeance allows for this.

Bane knights are a solid unit with or without Tartarus. Tartarus is not an auto-include, mainly due to not really changing what the Knights already do (and then there is the cost issue).

[Sanctjud]

-----------Interactions with other elements (non-caster):
*Tart: It must be obvious…he helps them hit and increases their threat range to a basic 12”, before we factor in Wrathe or Vengeance.
*Wrathe: Death Ride is another obvious thing.
*Bane Thralls: yes, their cousins have synergy with the Knights…mainly due to Dark Shroud, as it is a debuff that helps everyone…having both of them means, the Bane Thralls do not have to concentrate too closely packed when charging a heavy…and since the Thralls have a 0.5 melee range, the Knights can follow up charge and hit equally hard as the Bane Thralls.
*Gorman: For obvious Blind Bomb reasons to help the Knights hit.
*Desecrator: the new Crab Jack on the block…I have tried it out with Bane Knights and Terminus, while the Focus generated is nice, the sort range of the gun to help the Bane Knights deal with infantry has been disappointing…the best targets are the very very high def infantry with low armor (Daughters/Kayazy), so it has a role, but I don’t think it’s worth 9 points, because a:
*Bloat Thrall: can shoot into Bane Knights, and with their ARM 16, have a good chance of living while killing lower ARM/high DEF enemy infantry.

With respect to maximizing the Bane Knights, here are my simplified opinions of the casters who go well with them (I word this, this way, due to the placement of eGaspy) with a HEAVY bias towards DEF debuff casters:

-----------Primary Suggested Casters: (In short, these casters have a direct DEF debuff)
*pDenny-Debuff queen…there’s not much else to say. Feat+Scourge+Parasite for some auto hit and -5 ARM Bane Knight dog pile.
*eDenny-She offers huge DEF debuff, and can offer to move through enemy models. Marked for death allows them to maximize Ghostly and charge THROUGH obstructions..esp. the ones that block line of sight. Her feat allows the Bane knights to hit accurately, or to set them up for better charges next round.
*pSkarre-Flipside of the coin to pDenny, pSkarre is prob. the Buff Queen (3 Dice to hit with Guidance and PS 16 Weaponmasters at ARM 21 feat turn). In addition, Bane Knights are ARM16 Sacrificial Bombs for her.
*eSkarre: She sports Black Spot, helping Bane Knights hit better…and give them more attacks, which they are more likely to take advantage of due to their reach weapon.
*Scaverous: This guy can do it all… he can debuff both DEF and ARM. He can make more Bane knights with Excarnate and can increase the threat range by 2-4” with telekinesis.

-Deathward: (eSkarre/Scaverous) is a popular option on Bane Knights, bumping them to a more impressive ARM 18 (vs. Blast damage and common pow 10s).

-----------Secondary Suggested Casters: (In short, the DEF debuff is indirect)

*pShade-Offers more banes from his feat to pass out dark shroud for the Bane Knights to capitalize on. He can Hex Blast buffs/debuffs that may help the Bane Knights’ hitting/damage. More importantly, the Deathwalker offers a DEF debuff…the only reason why he’s secondary is because it’s such an indirect DEF debuff and quite fragile.
*Terminus-He offers them an indirect DEF/ARM debuff and a major ability: Tough. They are also a sac pawn option. Note, if you run 2-3 units of Bane Knights, I try to have 1 from each unit available as a sac pawn target…if the opponent does open fire on Terminus whether to shoot him or clear sac pawn, you can trigger vengeance on more units than normal. The only reason why Terminus is in the secondary pile is that Bane Knights are expensive, and Terminus’s tough aura only has a limited amount of space, and tough is more economical on cheaper bodies. (Note: Tough can actually get in the way of Vengeance moves if your formation is too dense and congested, you’ll need to watch out for this)
*Coven-They actually offer a lot to Bane Knights, they can help them actually move through enemy units, they provide a cloud and Occultation to protect them until they commit…but with the bias towards DEF debuff, the Coven have an indirect DEF debuff in the form of a critical hit Stygian Abyss.

-----------Tertiary Suggested Casters: (In short, these casters don’t provide a DEF debuff)

*pGaspy-he offers them superior damage output, but does not help them hitting.
*eGaspy-Yes, eGaspy’s here…and honestly I can only suggest Bane Knights with him…but it’s not so much he supports Bane Knights well, it’s actually the opposite, the Bane Knights support him and his feat well due to the extended threat range Knights have with reach. eGaspy offers more damage via parasite and has his rolling cloud to protect the Bane Knights and himself until they commit.
*eShade-provides stealth protection, Hex blasting upkeeps, and an attrition feat to benefit the Bane Knights (note: you can run the Bane Knight leader and feat to lock down a huge area to prevent shooting). But there’s not much else he does, other than getting into combat and affecting something worth killing with Stationary with his Ice Sword.
*Morti-Rerolls…now… Rerolls win games…but that’s all she’s doing for them.
*Venny-well, like eGaspy, they will do more for him than the other way around. He can set up a cloud wall to deliver them…but that’s about it.

Special Note: 30 Bane Knights??? Why YES!!!
I have had experience with 20 o 30 Bane knights without Tartarus and Wrathe support.
The idea is to maximize the ability of the Bane Knights to take on any kind of enemy through quantity and quality of attacks.
The inter-woven deployment and advance of the Bane knights can result in unavoidable vengeance moves given to you by the opponent.

I open the thread to more advice and opinions of the forum.

[Refyougee]

I don't understand. What does this have to do with ballroom dancing?

[Sanctjud]

Gliding across the floor all ghostly like, of course...wait, what are we talking about again?!

[PG_BloodRath]

Great write up. Very informative. Needs to make it into our stickies

[Cambrian]

Excellent write up. Definitely worth mentioning the eGaspy-cloud/deamortis combo as it is just so effective. I was able to use it against Kallus recently in response to his feat turn. (Given it was with a double bile thrall purge it made for quite a turn despite feat protection.)

Also worth mentioning against Legion of everblight and Cygnar the knights become significantly more effective than the bane alternatives. With vengeance, ghostly, and higher armor they can reach the opponents lines much quicker and don't rely on stealth and ghostwalk to get there.

[Vermithrax]

Bane Knights + Scaverous + Bloat Thralls. You just gave me a direction to go in. Pure amusement is what I've been after with bloats but I never took them due to my own infantry heavy lists being vulnerable to blasts.

Bane Knights and Death Ward get me where I want to be. I never even considered it. Thanks for writing this up!

[Cambrian]

Bane Knights + Scaverous + Bloat Thralls. You just gave me a direction to go in. Pure amusement is what I've been after with bloats but I never took them due to my own infantry heavy lists being vulnerable to blasts.

Bane Knights and Death Ward get me where I want to be. I never even considered it. Thanks for writing this up!

Satyxis raiders with force barrier do the same yet are completely immune so long as the UA lives. /offtopic

[PG_Wankel]

Nice Writeup. Bane knights is one of my next planned purchases.

[AshenFang]

Knights are typically my go-to unit when I look over my Banes and pick one, that extra mobility just goes so well with our army, getting things in where you want them, when you want them.

I had very much hoped we'd see a UA for them in Wrath.. ..well, not back to hoping for one in Colossals. Heh.

[Vermithrax]

One of my favorite ways to run Bane Knights is with a full unit closely followed by 6 Bile Thralls and Tartarus. It's a common setup in my Coven lists ( thanks for the nod to Bane Knights with The Coven ).

It makes for some interesting choices. If the opponent charges my front few banes then I can use Vengeance and move back, giving my Biles room to advance and purge. Or curse and charge with Tartarus. Or fall back on the traditional vengeance play.

I play this with The Coven because of occultation on the Biles and The Knights make it a complete package.

[AshenFang]

I play this with The Coven because of occultation on the Biles and The Knights make it a complete package.

I assume you don't mean at the same time, it being an Upkeep and all of that.

[Vermithrax]

Occultation on biles only. Knights are a great screen

[PG_BloodRath]

Oh man. I just got done playing a game with scaverous. "Arm 20" bane knights were the awesome- sauce.
one of my buddies says to me. " Cryx can't play attrition without a unit name ending with thrall..." ( summarized to skip his QQ session) I say to him "Challenge accepted"
We played a 35pt game and he played kallus and i played....

Lord Exhumator Scaverous +5 points
* Erebus 8 points
* Ripjaw 5 points
* Skarlock Thrall 2 points
10 Bane Knights 10 points
Bane Lord Tartarus 4 points
Darragh Wrathe 4 points
Warwitch Siren 2 points
Withershadow Combine 5 points
Crazy awesome bane knights was the highlight of my match. the math looked good on paper and really dominated the table at 35 pts.
* denotes with Tarterus
~ denotes with D. Wrathe
Armor :
16 ( base)
+ 2 death ward ( scaverous)
+ 2 (D. Wrathe)
---------
20!
Threat Range:
5 ( base)
+ 2 (Tarterus)
+ 1 (D. Wrathe)
+ 2 ( reach)
+ 2 ( TK)
+ 3 ( charge)
------------
15
+ 3 ( vengeance)
------------
18 ( oh yeah)
+2 ( Tk one knight?)
------------
20!
I don't think i need to mention
Ghostly, feast of worms, weapon master, undead, curse and so on.

when played agressivly it was able to control the board and wipe things off the table. the alpha strike fules souls for the feat turn following to further cripple my opponets army.

synopsis: destroyed large chunks of the oppnets army every turn. ended when he conceaded with nothing but kallus and a shredder looking at a very angery mob of Bane knights.

[Syfer22]

Yeah, ARM 20 Bane Knights are hella sweet... I hope you Excarnated the hell out of his army to keep bringing them back while you were at it.

I also ran ARM 20 Bane Knights against a troll player on Thursday. It worked out great; his light trolls were having to boost all over the place to kill them, and it even lured out his Dire Troll Mauler for the Deathjack to eat.

The only dampener was that the entire game he only failed 4 tough rolls. No exaggeration; we kept track.

[nosrek]

Ghostly is quite straight forward, so we need to focus on Vengeance. First read will have to be here, totally have to give nosrek mad props for posting his: Opening Strategy: Parting the Red Sea:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...hlight=parting

Thanks for the exposure. Though I must say red sea is an ever evolving strategy its neither perfect nor complete, however I feel the concepts in that post (especially deployment and spacing) are great tools for new players to begin using early on.

Just for you guys I put together something specific to the bane knights you have smaller bases and a smaller command range... but hey not everyone can be like trolls (just base size alone my 10 trolls take up ~4" more than your knights). Pay attention to the spacing its essential to stay in formation and make the most out of a 10 man unit. On the table top you get use to what 3",4" and 5" looks like, but while your learning remember to cheat and check your melee range (joys of reach) and abuse your command range measurement any way you can.

I didn't measure it but as Sanctjud said your second wave is 3" behind your first wave, this measurement is easy to get right. Moving your leader up is easy too because he moves right up the middle and you can measure his command range from his base to any model in the unit but as you can tell from the picture the leader sits ~4.5" behind the front row center knight.

I encourage you to set up the formation on a table if you have never tried it and look at how each member of the unit can charge past the front ranks, what I mean by this is every member of the unit has a charge lane available, keep this in mind when your opponent gets smart and stops triggering vengeance.

One word of caution is beware of large base models with reach if your second wave is only 3" behind the first, they will be able to get into the gap and hit your second rank without taking a free strike. But large base models with reach are usually cavalry and they will probably opt to just do impact attacks...so i guess just watch out for other cryx players.

[Tèarion]

perhaps this is a silly question, but that far spread out where and how do you position the rest of your list?

[various]

Excellent write up, informative and succinct. Keep 'em coming and i'll keep reading them. All i need to do is pick up a unit of them, they're one of the few units i don't yet have.

[Sanctjud]

perhaps this is a silly question, but that far spread out where and how do you position the rest of your list?

Behind them, to the side, or among them.
Depends on point level and how many units you have.
At some point, you'll just have another unit intertwined with them and just accept losses to AOEs.

Or you take options that are faster or AD so that they occupy a different portion of the board easy.