About them Burrowers and Venethrax

[Impostor]

Our local Cryx player likes to use Venethrax and his infamous Caustic Presence + Warwitch Siren. That equals big piles of unstoppable corrosion within his control area.
Then, there come the burrowers, who get to remove all the effects on them when they burrow, and get removed from the table.
If they got hit by some corrosion effect within that control area (it didn't actually happen, but we were speculating) and burrowed, what happens to them? The rules say that "cannot" trumps "does", no doubt here. But they get off the table. Does this still apply?
And if so, do i roll the toughs and stuff while they are still underground?

[Kris Tannahill]

They would still most likely die before they get to burrow as the checks come way before they activate to give the order, but not sure on the removing it thing. Also i couldnt but say Krielstone bearer uses combat warding immune to continous effects GO!

[bakaryu]

All effects on them expire when they leave the table.

When they leave the table they are not in anyone's control area, only the marker is on the table (which is not the unit).

[PG_Goldstep]

To make the example possible -- Madrak has sure foot on the leader and the entire unit is within 3 inches of him. They are all corroded from a bile thrall explosion.

They all tough it.
Hardcore.

They all take 1 point from corrosion the next turn.
They all tough it.
Hardcore.

Then they burrow.
The effect expires when they are removed from the table because all effects do.
When they come back no rule re-applies this effect, so they are all fine.

[Crate123]

As bakaryu says, they are not on the table anymore and thus not in his control area so it would expire. If they were still on the table it would not go away since Venetrax's rule says correosion never expires in his control area.

[Impostor]

To make the example possible -- Madrak has sure foot on the leader and the entire unit is within 3 inches of him. They are all corroded from a bile thrall explosion.

They all tough it.
Hardcore.

They all take 1 point from corrosion the next turn.
They all tough it.
Hardcore.

Then they burrow.
The effect expires when they are removed from the table because all effects do.
When they come back no rule re-applies this effect, so they are all fine.

So you say they can't burrow if they are knocked down?

Anyways, good example

To all others: i will have to keep this thread bookmarked or something, for the time this will actually happen. Sometimes it's good to have a big group of screaming forum users to back up your arguments ;P

[PG_joedj]

Burrowing gets rid of all that acid. Especially if you're tunneling through limestone

[Goris]

Simple solution to this is just bring the stone and laugh all the way to the bank.

[PG_Goldstep]

The KD stuff is because you can't give orders while KD.

Here's some language not exactly quoted from Prime but kept as close as possible between looking in KD and orders sections of the book:

A unit can be given an order by its unit commander at the beginning of its activation. While knocked down a model cannot move, make actions, make attacks, cast spells, use animi, use feats, be used to channel a spell, or give orders and does not have a melee range. A knocked down model can stand up at the start of its next activation unless it was knocked down during its controller?s turn; in that case it cannot stand up until its controller?s next turn even if it has not yet activated this turn. A model cannot become knocked down while it is knocked down.



So if a non-KD unit leader is corroded and is KD by a tough roll in the maintenance phase, that means no burrow order for the unit. Since he's going to need to make a tough roll for his to have corrosion to get rid of by burrowing, it seemed easier to make sure he never fell down.

And while I could continue to make this whole topic about how much of the troll playbook deals with the words "Knocked" and "Down", both in offense and defense, when all is said and done, Goris has the proper answer -- never let it happen.
Personally I like using the Slag Troll to kill Vene's stuff.

[Ravir]

forfeiting movement/action to stand is also at beginnig of activation. forfeit to stand, then give order.

[elkap]

Per P.236 of Primal you:
2. Resolve effects that occur at the beginning of activation. (You tough corrosion and get knocked down...)
3. Resolve all required forfeiture of movement and action. (You give up your movement to stand up...)
4. If activating a unit, the unit commander can issue an order. (Leader gives an order, they burrow!)

^ Wouldn't it work like this?

[Impostor]

Per P.236 of Primal you:
2. Resolve effects that occur at the beginning of activation. (You tough corrosion and get knocked down...)
3. Resolve all required forfeiture of movement and action. (You give up your movement to stand up...)
4. If activating a unit, the unit commander can issue an order. (Leader gives an order, they burrow!)

^ Wouldn't it work like this?

That's what i thought. Leaders being knocked down was never an issue when we were playing.
But then, it would give a whole new level of tactical usefulness for only-knockdown weapons!

[PG_Goldstep]

It's the "in that case it cannot stand up until its controller’s next turn even if it has not yet activated this turn."

If they take corrosion damage at the start of your turn, unless they are already KD, they become KD.
And they may not stand normally until next turn.

Then because they can't stand, they can't give orders.

So you understand correctly that you can give up your movement and stand and give an order, but not if you fell down that turn.

[elkap]

Ah, got it--so in this case it would actually be better to tough on your opponent's turn and then tough again from corrosion? Although unlikely.

[Largi]

Is tough optional?
Could you choose not to tough it and promote to a model who isn't at risk of being KD then give the order?

[wargrim]

Unfortunately you have to roll for tough. How many times I wished that my models would just die but they kept on

[YabaBaga]

It's the "in that case it cannot stand up until its controller’s next turn even if it has not yet activated this turn."

If they take corrosion damage at the start of your turn, unless they are already KD, they become KD.
And they may not stand normally until next turn.

Then because they can't stand, they can't give orders.

But if they survived the purge that means that they made their tough roll and were knocked down. So they'd be knocked down when they took the damage from the corrosion. So they wouldn't be knocked down again after they made their second tough roll (A knocked down model cannot be knocked down). So they wouldn't have been 'knocked down' on their own turn. So they could stand up and give the order.

[Jestor]

Can't a Fell Caller stand up the Burrowers making the point moot?

[Cromusz]

Very interesting. I wonder what would happen if my ravagore set a couple on fire (via animus) and knocked them down on the aoe attack. Would it play out the same assuming they take fire dmg?