EHaley. short rant...

[Syfer22]

PSorscha makes you lose as much of your next turn as she can see, butcher makes you lose as much of your next turn as he can get hit with an attack, Reznick shuts down anything buffed or non infantry, eKaya skips your turn with her boomerang alpha strike, pDenny makes you miss half you turn from shortened movement missed attacks reduced focus et al. EHaleys feat isn't OP, it's just annoying, and her 8/9 focus gets chewed up pretty quick with no upkeep.

I think it's a combination of her feat and her enormous control area -- And that if she even clips one model in a unit, the entire unit is affected.

I personally see eHaley as a skill multiplier. The more skilled you are/the more knowledgeable about the game you are, the stronger she will be. The less skilled/experienced you are, the weaker she will be (referring to the player controlling her). At least, that has been my experience thus far; I have yet to run into an eHaley that really gives me trouble aside from the annoyance factor.

[OniBeowulf]

The thing to remember is she isn't going to kill you, her army has to. All her feat does is stall, for the most part defensive feats aren't all that great but I'll admit hers is probably the best. I mean you know the feat is going to come so the best way to counter it is to rip into that person's scariest pieces asap and you're golden.

[Sanctjud]

PSorscha makes you lose as much of your next turn as she can see, butcher makes you lose as much of your next turn as he can get hit with an attack, Reznick shuts down anything buffed or non infantry, eKaya skips your turn with her boomerang alpha strike, pDenny makes you miss half you turn from shortened movement missed attacks reduced focus et al. EHaleys feat isn't OP, it's just annoying, and her 8/9 focus gets chewed up pretty quick with no upkeep.

Well guspm, there are ways to mitigate pSorcha, Butcher, Reznik, and eKaya... IE Shake, threat range, staying away, chaff respectively.
eHaley's feat can not be shaken, can hardly be avoided.

Using jacks and beasts to contest/hold objectives is only good if you can sustain that through three turns, meaning you are likely to need multiple heavies, because her 1-2 Stormclads have an amazing threat ranges and alot of decent PS attacks.

Basically, you need some range to keep the pressure on and heavies... which is meh, because it means you need to somewhat counter list in that situation (which is not something I like to do).
I personally like to change my game plan/style/who you use your regular list, but you just can't really do that vs. eHaley most of the time.

But oh well. I've killed her before with a bokur round 2....kill box was a funny thing for her in 2011. XD But that's about it... only way I've won is the opponent making a mistake...sadly, can't count on that ever. :-(

[correlation2]

It's not too bad if you aren't playing scenario.

[leo_neil316]

Cool! I'll remember that one as a Cryx player Magnus! oh wait.

Use leviathans to shoot up her heavy jacks. Those are her kill. Everything else she does is trying to distract you from her heavy jacks.

[brotherscott]

One way I have countered eHaley's feat is to play a little more aggressively, push a little more board control, and force the eHaley player's hand. Making them pop the feat early is one instance. Also, a little damage control helps as does having a well rounded combined arms force.

I played against a decent Cygnar player when he was discovering the joys of eHaley- and I took Searforge with Gorten. The feat was popped, I didn't have to do a lot because I was in a good position on the board. High Shields were already B2B and easily Shield Walled, those that could make attacks did (some melee, some ranged), and I got a Basher within striking distance of eHaley (much thanks to Thor). I ended up losing Gorten to a hopped up Hammersmith that trampled through the following turn, but he barely pulled it off. Overall I was able to put a lot of hurt on the Cygnar army and, had Gorten survived, he had left eHaley exposed to a lot of threats.

[MadJack]

Use leviathans to shoot up her heavy jacks. Those are her kill. Everything else she does is trying to distract you from her heavy jacks.

Except that she also does ranged assassination well (Time Bomb, followed by a bunch of shooting at the now easier to hit caster), so you also have to make sure to take out any arc nodes. Unless your caster is a focus-camping Butcher, or Gorten, or Karchev, etc...

[leo_neil316]

so you also have to make sure to take out any arc nodes.

I was talking to the cryx guy saying cryx can't do shooting.

And hey! Guess what kills lancers real good? Still Leviathans!

[Syfer22]

I was talking to the cryx guy saying cryx can't do shooting.

And hey! Guess what kills lancers real good? Still Leviathans!

Well, if you do consider ARM 18, +2 DEF and ARM against ranged due to Deceleration and +3 ARM for Arcane Shield... I'd say the RAT 5 POW 14 Leviathan is looking at a DEF 15 ARM 23 Lancer.

Strangewayes/Mechanics to taste.

[MadJack]

I was talking to the cryx guy saying cryx can't do shooting.

And hey! Guess what kills lancers real good? Still Leviathans!

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just pointing out another target for the Leviathans to pay attention to. Also, what's the POW on a Bloat Thrall? That might be a good model for Cryx to use to mitigate eHaley somewhat.

[Trygle]

i wasn't disagreeing with you, i was just pointing out another target for the leviathans to pay attention to. Also, what's the pow on a bloat thrall? That might be a good model for cryx to use to mitigate ehaley somewhat.

pow 14 iirc.

[MadJack]

pow 14 iirc.

Hmm, without the ability to boost damage that's probably not going to do a whole heck of a lot against a heavy or a Lancer then. I thought it might be POW 16. OK, Leviathans it is!

[Syfer22]

Hmm, without the ability to boost damage that's probably not going to do a whole heck of a lot against a heavy or a Lancer then. I thought it might be POW 16. OK, Leviathans it is!

Combine that with a low RAT, and there's no way it's hitting a Lancer, especially with Deceleration up.

[Maou_Mint]

As a Cryx Player, I've had reasonable success and fun with the Revenant Cannon Crew for ranged support. I just have to hide them behind a building/Helljack/Terminus and they tend to give me good returns all game by inflicting the initial damage I need to get the most out of my scavengers. That being said, the Leviathan and Harrower are good. The much maligned Corrupter isn't the worst thing I've ever seen, though I get more mileage out of it against Hordes, and the upcoming Desecrator pleases me. So Cryx does have range options.

And Minions are frikkin awesome. Smoked bacon is also awesome. I personally cannot wait until the Roadhog hits stores.

To the OP: eHaley is very insane and is complained about very often. This is nothing new. That being said if PP hasn't put out errata for her yet, they probably aren't going to. The upside is that Cygnar gets expensive grunt troops (Trenchers and Longgunners) and low pow weapons to compensate for eHaley's pure awesomeness. At least that's my theory. ;P If you want the balanced version of Cygnar, encourage your opponent to field Retribution instead.

[Trygle]

Personally my thoughts for mitigating eHaley is simply bringing a lot of tough units and abilities that help control the board and LOS.

Now this rules out the majority of my warcasters, and makes it so I am infinitely more predictable, but let's face facts here. eHaley is a big enough PITA that you HAVE to plan for.

[PG_Alviaran]

From a Cryx player whining about Cygnar, that is rich

Cygnar players are kind of known for this.

Also, I'm not whining about her. If you read my posts, I'm saying she's fine. She's powerful and she can certainly be a negative play experience, but I'm not here crying for her to be nerfed. I beat her. A lot. I've lost to her rarely actually. And yes, every victory is hard fought, but I'm not here whining about her. What I am tired of is Cygnar players who whine that she is all they have.

Personally this made me lose my breakfast over my keyboard in laughter....



.... ahahahahaha[/COLOR]

Prove to me that he is or was broken. Show me where Cryx, under eGaspy, won EVERY single major event.

They didn't. Was he on the high end of the power curve? Certainly. Did he need to be nerfed? Probably. But what he straight up broken? Nope.

(And for the record, I was never a fan of eGaspy. I got into Cryx because of his model but he just doesn't fit me. I much prefer the Skarres, eDenny, but not pDenny, Scaverous, Venethrax and even pGaspy)

[VOLK]

Spread out, forcing her to get up there to catch your army, which makes it easier to kill her. Play offensively, to make her use the feat defensively.

[Melfuaru]

Cygnar players are kind of known for this.

Also, I'm not whining about her. If you read my posts, I'm saying she's fine. She's powerful and she can certainly be a negative play experience, but I'm not here crying for her to be nerfed. I beat her. A lot. I've lost to her rarely actually. And yes, every victory is hard fought, but I'm not here whining about her. What I am tired of is Cygnar players who whine that she is all they have.



Prove to me that he is or was broken. Show me where Cryx, under eGaspy, won EVERY single major event.

They didn't. Was he on the high end of the power curve? Certainly. Did he need to be nerfed? Probably. But what he straight up broken? Nope.

(And for the record, I was never a fan of eGaspy. I got into Cryx because of his model but he just doesn't fit me. I much prefer the Skarres, eDenny, but not pDenny, Scaverous, Venethrax and even pGaspy)

I'm not going to get this topic locked, but the fact a PG is trying to defend eGaspy is hilarious. It's almost as bad as Legion claiming they are a finesse faction and balanced as well.

[PG_Alviaran]

I'm not going to get this topic locked, but the fact a PG is trying to defend eGaspy is hilarious. It's almost as bad as Legion claiming they are a finesse faction and balanced as well.

How is it wrong for a PG to defend eGaspy? Am I supposed to just join the forum bandwagon? PGs are allowed to have our opinions as well.

I'm just saying, he has never been as absolutely broken as people claimed. Outside of really bad matchups, (hi, Rahn theme list with eGoreshade on the table!) I don't think anything is really broken. And those are just matchups, so get the second list or try not to build something with such a hard counter for a single list event. Nothing is breaking this game in half and ruining any aspect of it, from the competitive to the casual scene. If there was, every single major event would end up going to the same faction. But they don't. More often, they are going to the same group of top tier players, some of whom take different factions to every event and then do extremely well with them.

And AGAIN, I'm not saying eGaspy was trash. Far from it. He was certainly EXTREMELY powerful, probably the best in Cryx. Nerfing him to make him just really good was a good move. His feat had no counter to it aside from staying ludicrous distances away. eDenny and eHaley both have feats that can be countered in some way via list creation or careful play. eGaspy really didn't. It was the same as the Skarre Bomb of MK1, which really made you just stay the hell away because there was no hiding from it and no mitigating it other than camping. So they tweaked the one aspect of him that was way too good (you'll notice they left everything else alone and he is fine for it. In fact, he plays more to his spell list than his feat alone now)

So, not broken. Just really good. And yes, there is a very noticeable difference.

[scout's honor]

And AGAIN, I'm not saying eGaspy was trash. Far from it. He was certainly EXTREMELY powerful, probably the best in Cryx. Nerfing him to make him just really good was a good move. His feat had no counter to it aside from staying ludicrous distances away. eDenny and eHaley both have feats that can be countered in some way via list creation or careful play. eGaspy really didn't. It was the same as the Skarre Bomb of MK1, which really made you just stay the hell away because there was no hiding from it and no mitigating it other than camping. So they tweaked the one aspect of him that was way too good (you'll notice they left everything else alone and he is fine for it. In fact, he plays more to his spell list than his feat alone now)

So, not broken. Just really good. And yes, there is a very noticeable difference.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I can't reconcile admitting something has no counter and is "way too good" in one sentence and and claiming it's "not broken, just really good" in the next. If there really is a difference, it's certainly not very noticeable to me.

[jonconcarne]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I can't reconcile admitting something has no counter and is "way too good" in one sentence and and claiming it's "not broken, just really good" in the next. If there really is a difference, it's certainly not very noticeable to me.

I think you missed his point. There is a counter, but it's not a good one

...His feat had no counter to it aside from staying ludicrous distances away. eDenny and eHaley both have feats that can be countered in some way via list creation or careful play. eGaspy really didn't. It was the same as the Skarre Bomb of MK1, which really made you just stay the hell away because there was no hiding from it and no mitigating it other than camping...

That said, I think there were listbuilding and playstyle things that you could do to deal with his feat as it used to be, but it was ludicrously strong regardless.

[scout's honor]

I think you missed his point. There is a counter, but it's not a good one

I'd argue that in scenario games - in other words, any competitive game - that's not a counter. Not even a bad one.

[Syfer22]

Well, there are other counters as well, though they are specific -- Anything that keeps you from being charged like Polarity Field, Temporal Barrier, or anything that blocked LoS (like a lot of clouds). Even little things like making sure there is no room (or not a lot of room) for bases to fit around the warcaster, standing behind a wall and removing Tartarus from play helped.

The most powerful aspect was the Incorporeal rule of the feat. Toning that down really upped my faith in PP's balancing team, showing they are able to nerf something without knee-jerking it into uselessness.

[PG_Alviaran]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I can't reconcile admitting something has no counter and is "way too good" in one sentence and and claiming it's "not broken, just really good" in the next. If there really is a difference, it's certainly not very noticeable to me.

Broken means that it warps the entire game around it. The entire game becomes "Play this or play to beat it". See some of the bannings that have happened in Magic. A couple years back, you played Jund or you played to beat Jund. If you had a Jund counter and hit nothing but Jund at a major event (not unlikely) you could ride that to the top even though you were weak to EVERYTHING else. But it was SO prevalent, that you either had to be playing Jund (and have plans for the mirror match or just get lucky) or you had to build your deck expecting Jund and be ready to kill it. That is NOT a healthy meta.

eGaspy did not warp the meta that bad. He didn't break it. You didn't see eGaspy taking all the major events or the winners packing nothing but anti-Gaspy tech to ride him to the top.

Muse on Minis calls Terminus a meta bender. You need to make sure at least one of your lists can counter high ARM. (I actually just retired my plans for my initial Circle Hardcore list because I topped out at a PS17 with no way to go beyond that) But that kind of bending of the meta is very different from straight up breaking it. You also tend to have the option of two lists, which can mitigate the chances of anyone destroying the meta as well. And being ready for something like high ARM isn't exactly an uncommon occurence. Ok, so I didn't hit a Terminus player all day. What about anyone else playing a bunch of ARM19+ heavies? Is my anti-armour stuff wasted? I might hit nothing but infantry swarms all day but the chances of seeing jack heavy Menoth, Khador or beast heavy Legion, Skorne are still pretty decent. Did I have to build lists that were near useless against everything but that one ideal and scary matchup out there?

WM/H is remarkably well balanced in this arena. There are always readily available counters, even to the things I hate. What do I despise? Tough. Tough, tough and more tough. Troll army with tough even on the bloody pygs! Gives me fits. Is it broken? Not in the slightest.

And as Syfer noted, they nerfed his feat in pieces to draw him down. Which is how I feel all nerfs should be. I think Haley's feat could use a little tweaking myself because it is a touch over the top (Personally, I think it should effect models, not model/units. Less of that catch one member of the unit, catch all of them silliness). But I don't want them to just take the nerf bat to Haley willy nilly. That isn't healthy for the game or its balance.

[ArneB]

Quite a difference between countering high ARM in general and countering stealthed high ARM that usually stays a bit behind.

[PG_Alviaran]

Quite a difference between countering high ARM in general and countering stealthed high ARM that usually stays a bit behind.

Not really. Do you have pieces that can deal with heavy armour? Do you have ways of delivering them to their intended targets?

That is all it really comes down to. There are varying ways of doing both. Can you debuff the armour until it doesn't matter? Or do you just bring in something that hits like a truck on its own? Or do you buff something so it can hit hard? Do you extend your threat range? Do you protect it with other pieces? Do you use other pieces to carve your way through? Do you just find ways to spam enough anti-armour on the table that they can't get all of them?

Terminus is on the high end of the curve, but if you have something that reliably deals with Khador jacks at ARM20, you can deal with Terminus. A Wold Guardian does not reliably deal with a Khador jack (on average, killing less than half of it unassisted). If Terminus shows up, I'm in trouble if that is my heaviest hitter. So I need to account for that, because if I can reliably deal with ARM20 jacks, then with some boosts and a little help, Terminus is now in threat range on the average turn. I have a way of dealing with him, now I have to find a way to deliver to him. Given that I need to be able to get that first strike in on the Avatar, I likely have ways of delivering my heavy hitters where I need them. Warpath, Perdition, Hunter's Mark, Slipstream, etc.

So once again, not a meta breaker. Bender, maybe, because he is a concern. But he is does not break it all in half. Neither did Gaspy. Neither does Haley, despite how much I hate her. Nothing has broken the game in MK2 yet.

You want someone who breaks the game though? Look at eVlad in MK1. How many major events did Khador take on his back? eGaspy has never done that in MK2. No one has.

[guspm]

I wonder if the nerf bat hitting what,eh will catch the deathjack and avatar in the same swing?

[Lanz]

I'm not going to get this topic locked, but the fact a PG is trying to defend eGaspy is hilarious. It's almost as bad as Legion claiming they are a finesse faction and balanced as well.

But not quite as bad as a blatant troll.

edit: On a side-note. Pride is totally broken-OP. It messes up players so badly that they can't even figure out why they lost.

[Lawso42]

Pride is totally broken-OP. It messes up players so badly that they can't even figure out why they lost.

This x1000. And sig'd.

Lawso