Kromac spellcasting, feating, jumping

[Ruan]

A thread came up in the Circle forum - fairly sure we're correctly interpreting things, but I wanted to double-check other's thoughts:

Can Kromac advance his normal movement, cast a spell, feat into Beast form, Jump, and continue his attacks?

Jump - After using its normal movement to make a full advance but before performing an action, you can place this model anywhere completely within 5˝ of its current location. Any effects that prevent it from charging also prevent it from using Jump.

Don't have the card/book in front of me, but that's the rule for it from the end of the field test - fairly sure it hasn't changed any.

The only thing preventing me from definitely saying 'yes, that's correct' is the fact that Kromac doesn't have Jump when he's making his full advance. That said, I think it's still legal... Casting a spell does not constitute as an action in this case (or so I'm relatively certain), so that doesn't prevent it.

Thoughts?

[vintersbastard]

Should work just fine. (Spellcasting is not an action for warlocks, so that's not an issue.)

[solkan]

I remember there being tremendous arguments in Mk I about gaining "After destroying an enemy model ..." abilities after an attack and claiming that the condition was satisfied retroactively, and rulings against satisfying a rule retroactively, so I'm not sure.

[Ruan]

That's the main thing that was keeping me from saying definitively that 'yes, this works'. I'm not sure if the advance->feat->Beast->Jump works out correctly due to the advance being before the Jump rule is in play.

[PG_petegrrrr]

The ruling on sprint was that if a model was destroyed and then the model gained sprint after, say from an animus, it would still sprint, so by that principle yes it works.

[ragnor2004]

I thought it was the opposite ruling on sprint where you had to have it when you killed something, I could be wrong though and most likely am. Off to go find it.

[Rynth]

The ruling on sprint was that if a model was destroyed and then the model gained sprint after, say from an animus, it would still sprint, so by that principle yes it works.

Rulings that say Sprint has to be present at the kill and won't retroactively be triggered by a kill made before the model had Sprint:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ghtning-Strike
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ghtning+Strike

[PG_petegrrrr]

Ah, then it would not work. Apparently infernals had stepped in after I stopped following the thread! Apologies!

[Bishop84]

I don't think the ruling on Sprint necessarily dictates that this won't work. Sprint has a required trigger, and if something doesn't have Sprint when the trigger happens Sprint doesn't trigger.

Jump looks more like a timing stipulation than a triggered ability.

[Crate123]

I don't think the ruling on Sprint necessarily dictates that this won't work. Sprint has a required trigger, and if something doesn't have Sprint when the trigger happens Sprint doesn't trigger.

Jump looks more like a timing stipulation than a triggered ability.

Well you could say that Leap has a trigger too, making a Full Advance while having the ability to Leap. Kromac doesnt do this in the OP's scenario.
Im not quite sure how this will go down, its tricky.

[PG_petegrrrr]

That would be my conclusion as well. For leap to happen, you must have made an advance with no spd penalties or other charge impediments.

And as infernals have ruled, a rule/ability cannot be triggered retroactively, so it looks like it won't work.

[Circle noob]

the movement part is in my opinion only there to show the limits of the ability (i.e. when he can use it and when he cant jump), the actual condition for using is the beast form, which is surly met after feating.
therefore all the conditions for the jump are clearly met when he wants to jump.

[SageofLodoss]

the movement part is in my opinion only there to show the limits of the ability (i.e. when he can use it and when he cant jump), the actual condition for using is the beast form, which is surly met after feating.
therefore all the conditions for the jump are clearly met when he wants to jump.

It could be read that way, but at this point I think a ruling is warranted. Lightning Strike, for instance, grammatically infers that it would work retroactively, so the previous ruling that Lightning Strike does NOT work that way gives precedence to the idea that you may need to have the Jump rule in effect when performing the requirement, even though making an advance is so much simpler than destroying an enemy model.

[Circle noob]

hmmm, what does a ruling about an animus has to do with an ability that a model naturally has? i mean without spells or animi. i see the point that you want a clear ruling but for me those two abilities are nothing alike. one is an ability the other granted by an animus. i really dont see the correlation between said ruling and the jump ability, however this is just my point of view and i dont intend to troll or offend with this post.

[FrostBlade]

the movement part is in my opinion only there to show the limits of the ability (i.e. when he can use it and when he cant jump), the actual condition for using is the beast form, which is surly met after feating.
therefore all the conditions for the jump are clearly met when he wants to jump.

Yah, I'm thinking the same... although I do have a bias

Wouldn't the fact that the "may make a full advance but before preforming an action" still apply? Although you can't retroactively go back and make a full advance to satisfy the may, you still have not preformed an action, thus satisfying the stipulated parameters.

If not, I'd like to know if it's legal to: cast spells -> Feat -> Beast Form -> Advance -> Jump. Basically whether you have to have Jump as a rule on the model at the beginning of it's activation to take advantage of it.

[SageofLodoss]

hmmm, what does a ruling about an animus has to do with an ability that a model naturally has? i mean without spells or animi. i see the point that you want a clear ruling but for me those two abilities are nothing alike. one is an ability the other granted by an animus. i really dont see the correlation between said ruling and the jump ability, however this is just my point of view and i dont intend to troll or offend with this post.

The similarity is that a model gains Spring from Lightning Strike, and IIRC, Kromac gains Jump after he turns into beast form. The question is, if you beast form after advancing, can you retroactively say you advanced, and so may jump now.

Because Lightning Strike says "destroyed one or more," past tense, and during "activation," but we are not allowed to retroactively fulfill that.

If not, I'd like to know if it's legal to: cast spells -> Feat -> Beast Form -> Advance -> Jump.

Yes, this is unquestionably so. You've got jump as a rule when you advanced.

Basically whether you have to have Jump as a rule on the model at the beginning of it's activation to take advantage of it.

This is the heart of the issue. Or at least, whether you need to have it before you move. Casting spells, then feating and then moving is fine.

[Bishop84]

If not, I'd like to know if it's legal to: cast spells -> Feat -> Beast Form -> Advance -> Jump. Basically whether you have to have Jump as a rule on the model at the beginning of it's activation to take advantage of it.

I don't think there's any question whether or not that is legal. There he has Jump when he makes his advance, no question about it.

[FrostBlade]

I don't think there's any question whether or not that is legal. There he has Jump when he makes his advance, no question about it.

The question is, if you beast form after advancing, can you retroactively say you advanced, and so may jump now.

I guess as I see it, you needn't say you've advanced. To me it's merely that the activation hasn't included an action up to that point, and the stipulation on full advance is meant to avoid interactions with shifting stone teleportation/charge/slams/a SPD debuff with the Jump rule.

I guess we'll have to wait on a ruling...

+++EDIT+++

Checking...

Sweet

[Valander]

Checking...

[Geekly]

Jump - After using its normal movement to make a full advance but before performing an action, you can place this model anywhere completely within 5˝ of its current location. Any effects that prevent it from charging also prevent it from using Jump.

- emphasis mine, or course.
The first statement seems like a condition instead of a trigger. In other words, if the condition is met, you can use the ability. The condition can be tested regardless of when the model acquired Jump. If it stated "During its activation but before performing action, blah blah" instead, would that change the interpretation?

[Valander]

Answer is that it works the same way as Sprint. That is, the model must have Jump at the time it makes the full advance in order to use the ability. The full advance is both the "trigger" or requirement, as well as the timing. Triggers are not "retroactive".

So, to the original question:

Can Kromac advance his normal movement, cast a spell, feat into Beast form, Jump, and continue his attacks?

The answer is "no, he would not be able to use Jump at that point."

[Nirvanawn]

But could he be in beast form move cast animi then jump? I would imagine so based on that ruling? Beast form Kromac being able to cast animi.

[Valander]

But could he be in beast form move cast animi then jump? I would imagine so based on that ruling? Beast form Kromac being able to cast animi.

This clarification has no impact on already being in beast form. If he's in beast form, then he has Jump, so if he makes a full advance while in beast form, he can Jump.

New questions should get new threads.