Damn point gaps in our beast selection.

[PG_Captain Smash]

So I was working on some list for the Speedmachine event at L&L, 25 pt MM/TC. And I kept hitting the short 2 point not a legal list.

First list I wanted to play with was my beloved caster eDoomy. Once you write down eDoomy you have to have Mulg and then I thought it would be fun to team him up with Rok. So thats 23 points leaving me with the dreaded troll 8 points. NO, I DO NOT consider 2 swamp trolls a option since I refuse to buy even 1(I hate the model that much, only beast I dont own). There is no 7 or 8 point beast, and while I would be fine with throwing in an Axer and calling it good, cant legally play 2 points down anymore.

I decided to come back to that list dilemma and try making a Gunnbjorn list(my favorite caster model sculpt wise, really wish they give him some rules help). So I started with Bomber, Blitzer, Implaler and I am back to 8 pts left because of tier 1 bonus. This time I can use a 2nd Blitzer if I owned one, just found it funny that I ended up with 8 points again purely by accident.

Anyway, just thought I would share so I could bring up the fact that we are the only Hordes Faction that has this problem. Every other faction has a good 8 pt beast, multiple 4 point beast and Legion has lessers which are great filler. Rant over, stepping off the soapbox. After some practice games I actually like Gunny in this format, Rockwall FTW (oh you dont have reach, no attacking my caster for you) and Def 19 from shooting is okay, when there isnt a ton of infantry that just ignores cover.

[R.J.]

Does qualifying for a tier bonus obligate you to take it? Wish they would give us a Lesser Warbeast, it could be like a super-whelp or something.

[Charistoph]

Yeah, I brought up a similar point not so long ago, in fact it's still on the first page down below. Most agreed that an 8 point Heavy would be about as useless as a Swamp Troll, and so would a 2nd 4 pointer. But a Character Light...

I know, Gunnbjorn teaches an Impaler how to use a Razorback's launcher! What? Too much?

[Flindo]

I cant help but noticed you didnt deduct the points off for your casters, is that a special rule of speed machine?

sorry nevermind I didnt notice you had stated its for a 25 point list.

[PG_machine007]

Its something I run into to, and the exact reason to why I didn't run Trolls in my local area's most recent MM/TC. Its one of two things we really need, a 7-8pt non-character beast and a 1 pt troll filler.

[Beest]

mulg earthborn mauler.

or just don't take gunnbjorns tier

[PG_LunarSol]

eDoomie doesn't get Warbeast Points. He just has an Axer as a permanent attachement that makes him WBP+0.

I've been on a kick lately where I refuse to compromise to add support. Normally with eDoomie, I run Mulg, Mauler, Bomber, Whelps, Runebearer, but when Rok comes out, I'm thinking I'll drop the Mauler and Runebearer and see how that goes.

[whitekong]

mulg earthborn mauler.

or just don't take gunnbjorns tier

I agree with this^.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Do you have a second earthborn?

I'd Go Rok, Earthborn, earthborn. The EBDT is going to be an absolute monster in such a heavy hitting environment.

[PG_LunarSol]

And.... totally missed the T&C bit. Ignore me.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

mulg earthborn mauler.

This was my plan to take with Grim. But I do like Pete's Rök and two earthborn idea...

[PG_Captain Smash]

I have a few list I have been playing with. I was just pointing out with how all our lights are 5-6 and heavies 9-10 it makes point filling in MM/TC a problem sometimes. As for an 8 point heavy being useless I couldn't disagree more. While it is possible for PP to make a 8 point heavy that sucks so much no one will ever take it, it could be very useful. Look at the 8 pt heavies that currently exist Circle-Gnarlhorn, Legion-Seraph, Skorne-Gladiator, all good beasts imo. Heck, skorne got the Archidon a 7 point heavy that is definitely worth taking in some list. And while the swamp troll is bad, a Gorax is amazing so it is possible to have a 4 pt light worth taking. I also like the idea of Whelplike lesser beast, maybe they spawn from the Mountain King.

[Charistoph]

The challenge with an 8 point heavy beast is that you either have to include snacking and regeneration, or have it not be a Dire Troll at all. If the former, it has to be weaker in melee than Mauler and either have weak or no range. The animus also has to be limited in order to be balanced, too, so weaker than other trolls. If the latter, than there has to be a REALLY good story behind it or the creator should turn in the ir Troll card.

[PG_Captain Smash]

Actually as far as I am concerned they already made a decent 8 point beast for trolls, it's called the Blitzer and is marked as a 9 point beast by mistake. Seriously he is not worth 9 points and at 8 points he absolutely DOES NOT become an auto include. A Gladiator is a much better beast and it does cost 8 points. So they can just make another beast with the same power level as the Blitzer and charge 8 points instead of 9. Or errata the Blitzer and make it 8, maybe some non-troll players will actually learn that the Blitzer model exist.

[PG_petegrrrr]

We are the only faction that only has one "type" of beast. If we need a non dire troll heavy to get an 8 point heavy, I cannot sign on the dotted line fast enough.

[PG_joedj]

How about a half-Trollblood, half-Ogrun warbeast. Bigger than a light Warbeast, smaller than a full Dire.
Opens up a new type...

[Charistoph]

Or maybe an "ancient" Lesser? One that has grown big enough to be a Heavy, but not quite a Dire? Leaves off the Snacking part of the Dire and gives a reason for his size and improved stats.

[Lawso42]

I don't see how snacking and regeneration means something can't be 8 points. I mean, the Seraph has Eyeless sight, flight, AND a ranged weapon. I highly doubt that means we can't get an 8 point beast at some point.

Lawso

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I don't see how snacking and regeneration means something can't be 8 points. I mean, the Seraph has Eyeless sight, flight, AND a ranged weapon. I highly doubt that means we can't get an 8 point beast at some point.

Lawso

Not to mention a fantastic animus and Serpentine. But, the gun is pretty bad and it has terrible melee output. I wouldn't want an 8 point beast if it was like the seraph.

[SOUPlex]

Not to mention a fantastic animus and Serpentine. But, the gun is pretty bad and it has terrible melee output. I wouldn't want an 8 point beast if it was like the seraph.

Oh yeah, because NO legion player EVER takes the seraph...

[JosephKerr]

Oh yeah, because NO legion player EVER takes the seraph...

They DON'T, if you read the forums that is...

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Oh yeah, because NO legion player EVER takes the seraph...

The legion players i've associates with dont use it, and neither did i. I used to be a legion player and, yes, the seraph isn't very good and only works in specific lists.

[Sardonic Artery]

Funny, I hit the same issue in creating a 25-point Tooth and Claw list. First thought was eDoomie + Mulg + Axer, then heeeeeeeeeey, wait, 13 points is really hard to work with.

[JosephKerr]

So is the Swamp Troll universally despised? It sounds like you really need a good four point light...

[nosrek]

So dire trolls have an insatiable hunger, hence the snacking.

Our full blood trolls are able to control their hunger and are more "tame", hence no snacking.

Give me a tame Dire troll that can control his hunger. Yea as expected he will be smaller and weaker but he would have a fluff backed reason to lose snacking.


Go one step further and make his bond with a warlock the reason why he can control his hunger. Bam 8 pt character heavy, Warmachine has two 8 pt character jacks, so its not totally unreasonable. Two initials attacks, 4 fury, and a crappy animi and I will be super happy.

I of course still stand by my initial idea of a character Axer which is still a light beast but 7-8 pts.

Let the light beasts reign supreme once Rok officially hits the table.

[Tough Guy]

Trolls are the faction of ****-hot but expesive heavy beasts. I've never found myself wishing for an 8 point beast because that's just not how we roll.

Dunno why the swamp troll is getting hated on. I think it's pretty cool.

[JosephKerr]

Let the light beasts reign supreme once Rok officially hits the table.

That sounds like a wild, and maybe surprisingly effective, way to build.

[PG_Valkine]

Funny, I hit the same issue in creating a 25-point Tooth and Claw list. First thought was eDoomie + Mulg + Axer, then heeeeeeeeeey, wait, 13 points is really hard to work with.

25 points Doomshaper2: Mulg + Earthborn + Mauler. Why run anything else?

[JosephKerr]

25 points Doomshaper2: Mulg + Earthborn + Mauler. Why run anything else?

Many leagues run that a list may not include more that a -1 on total list points. Your proposed list is -2. Not saying it's fair or anything....
EDIT: IF they allow Rok proxied this is obviously not a problem at all!

[PG_machine007]

Many leagues run that a list may not include more that a -1 on total list points. Your proposed list is -2. Not saying it's fair or anything....
EDIT: IF they allow Rok proxied this is obviously not a problem at all!

Rok will be out by L&L so I doubt they'd have an issue with it

[JosephKerr]

EDIT: Unnecessary post. My apologies.

[Kamahin]

Many leagues run that a list may not include more that a -1 on total list points. Your proposed list is -2. Not saying it's fair or anything....
EDIT: IF they allow Rok proxied this is obviously not a problem at all!

eDoom+6
Mulg-12
Mauler-9
EB-10

How is that NOT 25?

[Sardonic Artery]

25 points Doomshaper2: Mulg + Earthborn + Mauler. Why run anything else?

Axer for easier access to pathfinder, but yeah.

[PG_Sputniek]

^ That was the list I was going to play if my other one doesn't work. (Still need to play the list though...)

[PG_Captain Smash]

The legion players i've associates with dont use it, and neither did i. I used to be a legion player and, yes, the seraph isn't very good and only works in specific lists.

I disagree, I think the Seraph is amazing and would take it in most lists if err.. when I start playing Legion(I probably wont be able to resist forever). Alpha strike is so important in the game especially when dealing with heavy beast. It makes slipstream one of the most useful animus in the game.

Anyway, one of my biggest issues which I guess I should have stated to begin with is that a 8 point heavy will undoubtly be better then a 5-6 point light for survivability and damage output. So, I am building a list and everything I currently have in the list I absolutely want and am left 8 points. At this point I wish I could just take a 6 point light and play 2 points down legally, because I dont want to change what is already in the list, an 8 point heavy would be absolutely great. PERIOD. Saying that having to pay snack and regen tax at this point is meaningless. The arguement that it wont be very good on its own is meaningless also in this scenario. I have 8 points left I need to fill because MM/TC is a standard tournament format for the game. To be able to play in this format having variety in the cost of the beast creates significantly more options which I think would be a great thing for trolls.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I disagree, I think the Seraph is amazing and would take it in most lists if err.. when I start playing Legion(I probably wont be able to resist forever). Alpha strike is so important in the game especially when dealing with heavy beast. It makes slipstream one of the most useful animus in the game.

I thought the same when I started. I thought I'd have a seraph in every single list. Slipstream is probably the best animus in the game, but the seraph has so many other bad abilitied for it's 8 points.

I'm interested to see if you feel the same if and when you start legion. Drop me a PM if you do

[PG_petegrrrr]

I'll take an Archidon for 7 any day of the week though

[JosephKerr]

I'll take an Archidon for 7 any day of the week though

Concur's Bad Fur Day

[PG_Captain Smash]

Since no one commented on my idea of an errata to make the Blitzer a 8 pt beast, I am curious if it was an 8 point beast instead of 9 would that make it see anymore table time for you?
Also if it was 8 points and you had the option of taking a DT Blitzer or a Titan Gladiator for 8 points which would you take?

First, I would play the Blitzer more if it were 8 points and second I would without hesitation take a Titan Gladiator for 8 pts over a Blitzer.

[Jota]

^this

(10c)