The Wraith Engine. To be, or Not to be.

[usbprime]

<===This guy still doesn't own Biles..........

The arguement that you're "losing" something doesn't apply........at pretty much every point level you're not taking some model (unbound is probably the only exception). I'm not taking the wraith to replace other model/units, I'm taking it to try and see what combo's work good/better than others, so that anyone interested can see the other options that the model can provide. Once I finish with the wraith, I'm going to do the same with the animantarax (which is probably a larger losing battle)

[PG_moo]

This is the reason I ended up getting the WE. Options. Sure, some stuff is inherintely better than others, but you can still do well with "poor" models if you're good enough with them. There's already a heavy set- in meta of the Banes. While I like the Banes, I don't approve of them being a game breaker in that everyone forever in any game wants to run banes, just because they're better than everything else.

IMO the only real cost of a WE over a Seether is the -1 Mat and the lower amount of health boxes. Think of it this way: The WE has more support aspects, can get the same amount of attacks a Seether can at a cost of nothing to the Warcaster, and does more damage with those attacks, while causing other models attacking what it's engaging to do more damage as well. It also has a longer threat range than a Seether( not counting Morty, you would never take a WE with her)..

You also missed that the huge base is a double edged sword, in objective/scenario play it's great cos it can really hinder the movements of your opponent and the flip side is that in objective play it can be quite tricky to place in certain areas but because you're the one moving it, it's pretty good. I've used it many times to restrict the movements of my opponents. As for it's good movement it more than compensates for the pre-deployment issues imo. Stick it in the middle and move it to where you need it, especially since you can turn it incorporeal you don't need to worry about terrain too much if you play it well. Personally i'm a big fan of the WE and i find it very useful.

[Drzombieface]

You also missed that the huge base is a double edged sword, in objective/scenario play it's great cos it can really hinder the movements of your opponent and the flip side is that in objective play it can be quite tricky to place in certain areas but because you're the one moving it, it's pretty good. I've used it many times to restrict the movements of my opponents. As for it's good movement it more than compensates for the pre-deployment issues imo. Stick it in the middle and move it to where you need it, especially since you can turn it incorporeal you don't need to worry about terrain too much if you play it well. Personally i'm a big fan of the WE and i find it very useful.

I already touched "base" (hah get it?) on the base size in an earlier post in regards to an opponent counter- deploying against the WE, and the issues that would occur if the WE needs to relocate.

[PG_moo]

But i've never ever found the opponent deployment counter to match the WE for it's great movement + incorporeal. Especially when i'm sitting around with Scaverous and Darrage Wrathe.

[Drzombieface]

But i've never ever found the opponent deployment counter to match the WE for it's great movement + incorporeal. Especially when i'm sitting around with Scaverous and Darrage Wrathe.

Scaverous is good at relocating anything in general, but when you're not babysitting the WE with Scaverous, and are using another caster, it can be easily counter- deployed. Its personal mobility is fine, it's just that its huge base keeps it from swapping flanks easily, like you can do with solos or warjacks.

[dakem]

one nice thing of the WE is that it can not be moved - if you know your enemies speed, there is besides ranged attacks nearly no possibility for him to kill it.

I normally deploy it in the middle of the board, run first turn - but stay out of enemy charge range. Second turn i normally repair it if i got shooting damage, then turn incorp and relocate it to one flank.

First 2 game i overextended with the WE and it sucked, after game 3 it was the mvp and stayed it in the following games. Scaverus theme btw

[Sanctjud]

one nice thing of the WE is that it can not be moved - if you know your enemies speed, there is besides ranged attacks nearly no possibility for him to kill it.

I normally deploy it in the middle of the board, run first turn - but stay out of enemy charge range. Second turn i normally repair it if i got shooting damage, then turn incorp and relocate it to one flank.

First 2 game i overextended with the WE and it sucked, after game 3 it was the mvp and stayed it in the following games. Scaverus theme btw

The Engine can still be placed, just watch out for that.

[Drzombieface]

Yeah... BE's can still get yanked around by Druids and Battle Mages. I usually bring the Witches if I'm going up against something like that for Occultation.

[Sanctjud]

Yeah... BE's can still get yanked around by Druids and Battle Mages. I usually bring the Witches if I'm going up against something like that for Occultation.

No, battle mages and druids still PUSH/PULL. They do not PLACE.
Placement is in the form of Telekenisis or Dark banishment, or Apparation in the BE's case.

[usbprime]

No, battle mages and druids still PUSH/PULL. They do not PLACE.
Placement is in the form of Telekenisis or Dark banishment, or Apparation in the BE's case.

This is correct.......it's the one thing that all battle engines have going for them. They can't even be slammed which makes them great for holding objectives and hiding a squooshy caster behind.....not so much ours but the others are great for that. Also, with flags, keep in mind, that even if they're b2b with an engine, they aren't contesting a flag that the engine is b2b with, so it can be a serious roadblock for objectives.

[Drzombieface]

Yeah, they get in the way. But why would you pay 9 points for a walking placeholder.

[Drzombieface]

Just to keep this thread from dying (Cuz it's my baby), I'm gonna bring up a challenge. Play the WE with a caster you wouldn't normally under sane circumstances, build the list, post it here, and test it in a game whenever you can. And make it silly, but plausible.

I'll start it off.

eGoreshade
-Nightmare
-Skarlock

Bane Knights x10
Bane Thralls x10
-Bane Thralls UA

Wraith Engine
Wraith Engine

---50 pts---

readysetgo

[Sanctjud]

:-/

Meh.

3characters.

[PG_Tionas]

Does it count if You'd just stick it in an army anyway if you felt like it?

Though, I will say this: Everything they make these days has a proper Niche. trying to force things outside of that is very rough. Your always going to be looking for who supports what, and how, so putting it in a list that's he's just wedged into won't help a whole lot.

[Sanctjud]

Does it count if You'd just stick it in an army anyway if you felt like it?

Though, I will say this: Everything they make these days has a proper Niche. trying to force things outside of that is very rough. Your always going to be looking for who supports what, and how, so putting it in a list that's he's just wedged into won't help a whole lot.

I think Drzombieface could be trying to troll the people that are slightly interested in teh Wraith Engine into hating it with taking it with casters that don't support it...
Otherwise... meh to the suggestion.

[Warlordtheft]

I'll have to try that maneuver on the flanks at some point. It attaracts attention and even at ARM 20 with death ward up it is not that survivable. But on the flanks there'd be less that can focus on it. Also not needing any focus means that it could be self supporting.

[Sanctjud]

But then it ends up, lowering the maximum output of the Engine.
It's a hard balance between keeping it alive and "making back its points."

[Deo85]

With the stats of most of our models not many things survive after hitting the wall of the enemy so why would the wraith engine be any different? Putting it on a flank forces some one to have to divide there forces to deal with the threat if you put it in the center sure you will get more targets but at the same time you are predictable and going to have to deal with everything on there side when you hit the line.

[PG_moo]

Well i ran a 50pt game vs Khador with pSkarre and the wraith engine and managed to block the objective to my opponent and the unit of mcthralls forced him to provoke a freestrike from the WE with his scrapjack. MAT 7(+2) with effective P+S 15 (+2 dark shroud, +5 skarre feat turn) i wrecked his scrapjack and continued to eat through a large portion of his army. The WE really is quite situational but if you can get it into those situations it's really quite effective.

The list was:
pSkarre
-leviathan
-leviathan
-skarlock
-deathripper
-mcthralls
-necrosurgeon
-bloodgorgers
-gerlak
-pistol wraith
-WE

The pistol wraith also had some nice protection next to the WE, but i think all models have great synergy with pSkarre's feat, including little fluffy bunnies. I'm going to try running the WE with some of the other casters within the next couple months, but as i said i still like running it.

[Rhin0]

I took the wraith engine to a highlander and a hardcore event,
there was 9 games between the 2 tournaments, and i won 7 of them, i found the wraith Engine to either get the Caster kill (5)
Or be responsible for something else getting it (2)

[Sanctjud]

@Rhin0:

How many points highlander?
What was your list?
What were your opponents?

Just saying that is like me saying, I use Drudges and they are overpowered. :-/

Maybe with restrictions upon opponents like that, it severly cuts down on the number of ways the opponent can DEAL with the WE...which means their ability to do well is based off of an arbitrary ruling constricting everyone, making it better indirectly... not saying this is the case, without more information that is

[PG_Tionas]

you know man, you're can come across as a professional hater

I mean that in no disrespect. I think constructive dialogue about the pros and cons of different models in different situations is excellent But we're beyond the point of being capable of convincing you its worth anything. That's fine, everyone's allowed to think what they want, but MAN. you can be a negative Nancy.

[SpiderBite]

Not really. It feels more like he's sick of everyone saying its so awesome and bad*ss, when its not. Yes, you CAN make it work. I can build a list around it and make it shine. In restricted situations it can be phenominal.
It is an awesome model. It is a fun piece to have on the board. It CAN be very powerful.
For the most part its points could be spent alot more efficiently on other things.

*-edit: If it works well with you, congratulations. and I'd love to play against your Wratih Engine list sometime.

[Drzombieface]

I think Drzombieface could be trying to troll the people that are slightly interested in teh Wraith Engine into hating it with taking it with casters that don't support it...
Otherwise... meh to the suggestion.

No, not really. You're being too pessimistic about it. It was an attempt to achieve two things: 1. Get people to play the WE more 2. Do it with someone they wouldn't normally play it with, as in a caster that's not auto- include for the WE. The WE has grown on me, and I'm actually planning on running that list I posted once I get a 2nd one (Which should be as soon as I get paid for my last comission.)

It's not awesome, it's not bada**, but it's not terrible or obsolete either. People using it as a giant 120mm roadblock aren't getting out of it what they could be. Just trying to get people to play it more to form more educated opinions over its total behavior/strengths/weaknesses.

Gotta love a community when someone has an idea and it's automatically assumed the idea is either trolling or downplaying something/someone. Just dandy. And people wonder why I was a Forum Lurker for all those years and not a Forum Participator.

Edit: *sigh*

[Warlordtheft]

I really need to field this guy more. But in my last game he took on 2 Khador heavies and died. The Iron fangs had iron flesh and were DEF16....9 on 2D6 not good odds so I ignored them. Too bad the IFP were fearless (Had a UA). I ran him straight up the middle (Scavvy tier 4 list) and down the throat of my opponent. Sure he died, but that did let me maever the WSC to get one of the jacks (made a seether) and a ripjaw to kill the other. A turn later I killed P-Buter with spells. Did my WE make a difference? yes, even though he only damaged one of the jacks and nabbed a widow maker he still helped me win by giving me time to get other forces in position. Do I still wish I could have done more damage to Khadorian forces? Yeas, but in the end it performed well enough.

[Drzombieface]

I really need to field this guy more. But in my last game he took on 2 Khador heavies and died. The Iron fangs had iron flesh and were DEF16....9 on 2D6 not good odds so I ignored them. Too bad the IFP were fearless (Had a UA). I ran him straight up the middle (Scavvy tier 4 list) and down the throat of my opponent. Sure he died, but that did let me maever the WSC to get one of the jacks (made a seether) and a ripjaw to kill the other. A turn later I killed P-Buter with spells. Did my WE make a difference? yes, even though he only damaged one of the jacks and nabbed a widow maker he still helped me win by giving me time to get other forces in position. Do I still wish I could have done more damage to Khadorian forces? Yeas, but in the end it performed well enough.

Well, "Ther's yer problum" You threw one WE at two heavy armored Heavy Warjacks, when it's, as far as I can tell, designed more to combat infantry.

Iron Flesh tends to be a problem, yes, but once the WE's get into combat, support by your other models in the melee, it can start gathering souls, which it can use to boost - Odds of hitting back to "Decent"-. Only trouble is finding a way to keep the WE from getting focused down, which can also be done with Cryx's love of presenting multiple threat lanes. Make your opponent choose between eating a juicy WE, or getting smashed in the side by a flanking force, or letting the front line push through because what they were fighting suddenly focused on something else.

From what I've learned, there's times you need to be agressive with the WE, and other times when it just needs to chillax and eat people, until it can jump out and unleash its soul- powered fury upon the meat- bags.

[Sanctjud]

Sheesh people, you don't see the emo-cons... " "

Well, who cares about Negative Nancies... you defend your positions to strengthen the overall arguement. Asking these questions help support the claims of the posters here who ARE doing well with the Wraith Engine. ( I am not denying people are using it well ).
Help "me" see what those that use it well "see".

I am not wrong, "It did well for me" is not enough for a meaningful addition to the discussion, and the addition of arbitraty restrictions to the overall game changes the dynamic of the interactions of the WE with eveything else in the game...and so I question if that is a major factor to it doing well (in addition to normal usage).

I'm sorry if I seek to learn via questioning the contibutions of other posters.

Oh... and it's all friendly from me If you are vassal you will know how friendly I can be

[Drzombieface]

Sheesh people, you don't see the emo-cons... " "

Well, who cares about Negative Nancies... you defend your positions to strengthen the overall arguement. Asking these questions help support the claims of the posters here who ARE doing well with the Wraith Engine. ( I am not denying people are using it well ).
Help "me" see what those that use it well "see".

I am not wrong, "It did well for me" is not enough for a meaningful addition to the discussion, and the addition of arbitraty restrictions to the overall game changes the dynamic of the interactions of the WE with eveything else in the game...and so I question if that is a major factor to it doing well (in addition to normal usage).

I'm sorry if I seek to learn via questioning the contibutions of other posters.

Oh... and it's all friendly from me If you are vassal you will know how friendly I can be

Just came across as as quite condescending at first. No worries.

Inquiring into the nature of the intention of someone's actions is something I do often, but suggesting that I'm a troll for trying to bring the thread back to life/trying to bring the WE back to light was kinda... as best as I can put it, "Bleh".

But, whatever. Caring moment rant over. Back to lurking for threads I can contribute to while surfing Imgur for kittens and obscure references.

[Rhin0]

All good Sanct, Posted late and was cbf writing anything of substance, but still wanted to give the Engine props.

Highlander was 25pts, had 5 games.

pSkarre
- Deathjack

Wraith Engine

Max Mech thralls
- 2 Brute Thralls

Gerlak

First game was easy, It was agasint a newish Troll player, who vastly underestimated the Engine under Skarre's feat.
Gerlak destroy a small unit of 6 pigmy to soul up the engine, then the engine used apparition then charged and tagged 2 heavies,
(total threat is 13", and i guess this just shocked this particular newer player)
Then 6 attacks at practically PS 22 killed the 2 heavies. was game.

Game 2 was against another Cryx player also using pSkarre.
I didn't want to feat defensively but ended up doing it anyway.
During the cruntch turn, i wraith walked the Engine and basically run it into melee with Skarre.
In the mean time, tagged a jack with back lash and touched him up a bit.
Skarre feated for 5 but, at that stage he had to either take the free strike or lose the game anyway (hard to explain)
basically, the Engine's FS killed Skarre. (as she had taken a bit of damage from her feat + backlash

Game 3 Menoth.
This was just a combo of DJ and Engine.
Dj managed to run quite close turn 1 and on top of a hill 15/19 and it was much closer (and scary i guess)
So he targetted that instead of the Engine.
Next turn i ran at him agasint and was forced to feat defensively, but DJ did get to wreck a light.

During the feat turn though the engine was (just) within range of one of the reckoners, (behind a wall)
but with dark guidance up i was able to hit it, i also tagged him with 2 attacks which drop all his good stuff.

In his next turn he was unable to crack the 2 high arm models, and skarre was also Arm 22+ att the time.
I basically ran circles around him next turn, to assure a scenerio win.

Game 4 Mercs (mcbain + Kayazy)

This was going to be an annoying game, mc'bain's feat.... annoys me in general.

Although, yet agasin the Engine got the win, there was a large mosh pit in the centre (his assassins / my thralls)
During this time it meant i could sneak the engine into the caster for the win.
I went Incorp the turn before (for shooting reasons) so he ran a light into b2b with me, to avoid any charge etc.
So i apprition 2" to the side, then, feat + DG. Charge a mc thrall and a brute into this light (at maximum .5" range)
to wreck it on feat turn. The other mechs got a little luck, and rolled some 10+ to kill 3-4 assassinss (which fueled up the Engine)
Then the engine was free to charge along the side of his battle line, and just tag Drake in his maximum reach range.
3 souls + feat + DG = WIN.

Game 4 Khador eSorch.

This game was stupid, by this time, i had forgotten how to play, i made so many mistakes it wans't even funny.
Basically everything died bar Skarre, DJ Engine.
So i got complancent, feated with Skarre and thought i would see if she can kill a heavy.. (she can't)

FYI, i only done this as i thought i had lost anyway.

So went 4-1 and got 3rd.

I'll have to post the hardcore stuff laters.

[Sanctjud]

I suspected pSkarre had something to do with it.
Freestrike to win the game...ewww...don't forget you get a soul for killing her

[steelmaelstorm]

I was bored and bought 2 of the buggers. I painted them up for our Journeyman League and set them on the shelf. It would be fun to put them both on the table at least once!



They make poor Deathjack look tiny!

[Rhin0]

Sanct, I had only had 2-3 games with Cryx before that weekend, and the guys said pSkarre is a nice way to ease you into cryx
(seemingly, as I was playing them in hardcore as well :P )
So yeah, i took the easier route, and used pSkarre. (she is pretty boss)

[Sheer_Falacy]

This game was stupid, by this time, i had forgotten how to play, i made so many mistakes it wans't even funny.
Basically everything died bar Skarre, DJ Engine.
So i got complancent, feated with Skarre and thought i would see if she can kill a heavy.. (she can't)

PS 18 weapon master with 7+ focus and auto kd can't kill a heavy? o.O

[Sanctjud]

@Rhin0:
My comment about pSkarre is... 80% of all the good expereinces are with her.
10% with Dennys.
5% with eSkarre (before her FAQ)
5% everyone else.

Just making up numbers, but the majority of the good experiences shared have been pSkarre. (Which like Denny, makes anything better)

@steelmaelstorm:
Man, it's nice to have income T.T
Nice though, very striking on the board....but the base.....so much.... 'room'.

[Deo85]

nice paint job you are right that the DJ looks so little next to them Oo

[steelmaelstorm]

@steelmaelstorm:
Man, it's nice to have income T.T
Nice though, very striking on the board....but the base.....so much.... 'room'.

Ex-wife doesn't get a vote on how much I spend on my PP addiction. :-)

The bases are flippin' HUGE! I didn't have a plan for the bases going into the build, just wanted to get them finished-up for the Journeyman League points. I'll go back add a bunch of bling to the bases just before they hit the table for a game...

Now, I just need the gangs help to make a "fun" list at 50 points to run 2 Wraith Engines!

[Drzombieface]

....but the base.....so much.... 'room'.

I'm trying to plan out the best base I've ever done for my WE, just to take up the room that's left, and to give me a reason to field it more. I'm thinking something like either a battlefield or a dark road- ish type style. If I go for the battlefield type, I'll have puttied bodies strewn about with modified souls rising from them towards the WE, with green ooze and blood all over the place. Maybe a few trenchers in the running pose with scared faces. Don't know what I'd do for the dark road/alley type base, but there's some stuff floating around in my head.

As a side note, probably won't be posting in this thread as much as I have, I'll pop in every now and then, but I've got to finalize stuff for this college semester. Pretty tedious. Will probably cut into my painting time as well.

ugh...learning.


Edit #2: Possibility of playing my list tomorrow night, If I can manage to borrow someone's 120mm base to proxy a 2nd WE. Can't afford the 2nd right now.

Edit #3: More thoughts/experiences/lists/talk of the Wraith Engine welcome. Elaborate for anyone attempting to use this thread for info on the WE, which is what I'd like for it to be able to give to them.

[Drzombieface]

Ex-wife doesn't get a vote on how much I spend on my PP addiction. :-)

The bases are flippin' HUGE! I didn't have a plan for the bases going into the build, just wanted to get them finished-up for the Journeyman League points. I'll go back add a bunch of bling to the bases just before they hit the table for a game...

Now, I just need the gangs help to make a "fun" list at 50 points to run 2 Wraith Engines!

Fun, you say? WE'LL HAVE NONE OF THAT HERE! FUN POLICE ON PATROL.

In other news, anything with pSkarre/pGaspy makes them awesome and able to beat stuff into the ground (which is fun. For me, anyways)

[Sanctjud]

pGaspy really doesn't care about the WE, scything is cute, but more milage on a unit (cycling is an option).
He appreciates the Mat 7 I guess.

[Adurot]

For some reason I've decided I'm going to run my WE in my future pLich list. Just seems like he'd appreciate it. Not really that he super benefits it, just that it's likely to get used as a psudo Jack that he doesnt need to give Focus to.