Which pButcher 35pts do you like best for General Play?

[Methoderik]

Just like the title says, which pButcher 35pts do you like best for General All Comers Play? I have played with the second list and done pretty well against a Menoth opponent. I love the idea of the WGRC and Butch's feat in the first though.

pButcher
Behemoth
War Dog
Gorman Di Wulfe
10 Kayazy Assassins
Kayazy Underboss
Kayazy Eliminators
Kovnik Joe
10 Winterguard Rifle Corps
Saxon Orrick

-or-

pButcher
Behemoth
War Dog
Greylord Ternion
10 Kayazy Assassins
Kayazy Underboss
Kayazy Eliminators
Kell Bailoch
Manhunter
Saxon Orrick
Widowmakers

[Krazy_Ivan]

Interesting. Different then how i run pButcher with the exception of the Kayazy. I usually leave the infantry spam to Irusk and try to take jacks with pButcher for Full Throttle abuse. Have you come up against lists with multiple heavy armored models though? I could see a lot of armor being difficult for these lists to deal with. Feat will defiantly help, but multiple menoth jacks belching fire with a choir singing no shooty could be not so fun.

[Methoderik]

Yeah played the Harbringer with Avatar and the Guardian, and barely lost to a super lucky high rolling assassination. Then I played Thyra, again with Avatar and Guardian, and controlled the whole game until I got her with Butch in the end.

Behemoth is good for a Jack at least all by himself, Butch is good for one, and feated/ganged/furied Assassins can get nasty if needed.

But the local meta is heavy infantry spam...

[Hadesboom]

Yes, kayazy with pButcher can be mean. I have fond memories of 3 of my kayazy grunts charging and backstabbing my friends bronzeback from full to death while on feat turn.

[scout's honor]

Yes, kayazy with pButcher can be mean. I have fond memories of 3 of my kayazy grunts charging and backstabbing my friends bronzeback from full to death while on feat turn.

Your friend was aware that your models needed to activate in his model's back arc to get those backstrikes and allowed it anyway? I can honestly say I have never gotten a backstrike out of a Kayazy, ever. Reinforcements might make that more plausible, but Kayazy are not a good choice for reinforcements so I don't think I'll be trying that any time soon.

[Hadesboom]

Yes, we were both aware how backstrikes and backstabs work. He knew it was coming, just under estimated how much damage theyd actually do.

[Major Shultz]

Howdy!
I am puzzled by the use of the WGRC with pButcher?
What does he bring to those 8 points that would not be better spent on a fury and full throttle buffed kodiak?
Lots of shooting with a caster that does not buff shooting except on feat turn.

[Karl Eller]

Of the two lists, I much prefer the first. WGRC + Joe and Behemoth gives you a strong shooting component, Kayazy can Tarpit with IF or kill **** dead with Fury, and Behemoth can deal with some heavy armour in melee. Dealing with a lot of high-ARM spam may give you issues, though.

Howdy!
I am puzzled by the use of the WGRC with pButcher?
What does he bring to those 8 points that would not be better spent on a fury and full throttle buffed kodiak?
Lots of shooting with a caster that does not buff shooting except on feat turn.

The only casters we have that buffs infantry shooting outside of Feat turns is the Vlads, with S&P/HoF. What the WGRC bring is accurate (with Joe boosting Attacks) RNG14 POW10 attacks that are capable of hitting DEF15-16 on average dice and a nice denial template for scenarios. They can't tarpit like WGI, but they have a much longer threat-range and are great for softening up infantry before the charge. Also, they can wreck face on the feat turn. If only they had CRA.

[Methoderik]

Yeah the Butcher really only ups the WGRC on the feat turn... But it seems like it could be ridiculous. My meta seems to be heavy on the infantry spam, especially at 35.

[Major Shultz]

Howdy!
PButcher has a great solution for small based infantry....
Fury
Full throttle
TRAMPLE
Repeat.
I love all of these people that crow about these massive infantry spam lists that a jack heavy pButcher or Karchev list shreds.
This list will get mauled by a jack or beast heavy list.

[Karl Eller]

Howdy!
PButcher has a great solution for small based infantry....
Fury
Full throttle
TRAMPLE
Repeat.
I love all of these people that crow about these massive infantry spam lists that a jack heavy pButcher or Karchev list shreds.
This list will get mauled by a jack or beast heavy list.

1) Position infantry competently so that you don't get good tramples off.
2) Laugh.
3) ???
4) Profit.

[scout's honor]

Indeed. Against properly played infantry spam, trampling is a non-issue most of the time.

[Methoderik]

Howdy!
PButcher has a great solution for small based infantry....
Fury
Full throttle
TRAMPLE
Repeat.
I love all of these people that crow about these massive infantry spam lists that a jack heavy pButcher or Karchev list shreds.
This list will get mauled by a jack or beast heavy list.

Yeah I have a Behemoth in the list, so I hear what you are saying with the trample. In my limited experience I have found pButch to be pretty focus inefficient, so your going to have a tough time Fury/Full throttle/Trampling with more than one jack a turn.
And again, I deal with a lot of infantry spam in my area so while I am sure the multiple jack lists works great for you, I have better luck with infantry. Maybe it's my play style.

[GlassJaw]

I love all of these people that crow about these massive infantry spam lists that a jack heavy pButcher or Karchev list shreds.

I love all these people that think simple telegraphed tactics will work against good players. I know you're having a great time with pButch but relying on 7" tramples that require half of his focus is a very poor strategy.

As others have said, it's very easy to position infantry so a Large base can't hit. If that happens, no trample for you. pButch also has zero speed buffs so it's going to take a while for your heavies to get in position to trample. Against lists with fast, weapon master infantry (Banes, Doom Reavers, etc) or heavies that out-threat you (Circle, Legion), your jacks most likely won't even get there.

Which brings me to the pButch ranged list. Having ranged options mitigates pButch's lack of speed and makes brutal use of his feat turn (especially if you also have A&H). Widowmakers, WGRC + Joe, Nyss + Valachev, even Greylords bring a ton of accurate attacks that can wear down your opponent early in the game, which allows your jacks (and pButch) to get up the field and in position for the late/end-game.

On paper, pButch looks like he's all about axe-to-face but in practice, that's not the best strategy to use in competitive environments.

[Major Shultz]

Howdy!
Mortars and trample. Please place your models in way that a large base can't fit and the mortars will make lots of holes for me to trample. What you have missed is at 35 points pButcher can have as many as 4 berserkers or 3 kodiaks that can all trample for 0 fury under full throttle with all of the attacks boosted to hit. Please show me how you can position your infantry spam to be immune to mortars and not allow them to make holes in your formation.

[Karl Eller]

I didn't say "no tramples", I said "no good tramples". Spreading out so that you can only hit 1-2 models with a trample is just as effective, or a few well-placed medium-based models (MoW Shocktroopers or Boomhowlers are good for this) will completely block trample lanes.

Trample is a nice power attack, but it is too situational to be relied on for anti-infantry work.