elPlagues Iron Lich Overseer Thoughts

[elplagUe]

So, the ILO. The dreaded, useless, completely and utterly pointless Wrath Jack Marshall we have recieved. It's gotten blasted all over these forums, for being as useless as the Cephalyx, or worse.

Well, I say *&^% that. I've used him recently, and here are my thoughts.

Stats: Solid. Good enough arm to make him a nuisance, speedy to keep up with our jacks, has a decent POW spear with reach. Magic Ability 7. 8 Boxes. He's a medium base, but his abilities help that.

Attacks:

Fell Staff - solid P+S, reach. Great to net a soul. Also has magical weapon, so situational but never a bad thing.

Special rules:

Commander - Eh, not overall useful in a dead faction, but great with our living units. He's got a decent CMD score to help those Satyxis stick around.

Jack Marshal - No drive, but you get a boosted melee/ranged attack or damage roll, or extra attack.

Undead

Circular Vision - 360 LOS with Reach is area denial. Boosted POW 13 damage rolls are solid and can ding stuff up. Don't forget the free strike triggers while the model is still in melee range so you'll get a soul if you kill a trooper.

Soul Matrix - Yes, he collects souls. But this ability is sheer money. Against some stuff it's useless, BUT if you can get the ILO and his pet/s into enemy troops you can stack some souls to help your jack take out heavies. Can be used for boosting attack/damage or buying additional attacks.

Spells:

Cloak of Darkness - gives himself and jacks he marshals in b2b stealth. Added survival utility.

Dark Fire - RNG 10 POW 12. Nets a soul regardless of proximity to other models. Feeds his soul matrix ability once you get close.

The model is also fantastic. Assembly generally sucks, because of the way PP designed the figure, but it's an awesome sculpt.

Jack Marshal Options:

Remember you cannot marshal a character jack!

Reaper - This is my go-to. If I am taking an ILO, it's with a Reaper. Sustained attack + Soul Matrix can really push this thing to the limit. Secondly, it benefits from stealth for a short while til it is comitted. The driver with soul matrix and boost from jack marshal can definately kill casters. Just make sure you boost the to hit roll for the first driver attack.

Scavengers - I've run a pair with the ILO and they work well. Finisher and sprint is really useful. They benefit also from the stealth and free boost to either damage or to hit, but I generally boost damage as it has above average MAT.

Leviathan - The stealth option greatly increases the survival of our ranged jack. Marshalling keeps the burden off our caster, as the levi likes to take multiple shots at enemy heavies. Secondly, you can really put the pain in from range if the ILO can net a few souls.

Desecrator - I've used this as a ranged option with p/e Goreshade. It works well as it essentially gets 2 free boosts not counting soul matrix per turn. Crit Shred is likely with the auto boost from the ILO, giving you another free attack with the affinity. It also gets really nasty with the scather, as it only effects enemy models. Shoot the scather, drop the aoe, and run the ILO in to tie stuff up. If they stay, they die, and the ILO gets souls. If they leave they take a free strike, giving souls (hopefully) and more attacks for the Desecrator. Good synergy here!

So, in conclusion, this is the stuff I've used him with. I think he's actually very good. In the games I've played him, he's done exceptionally well with a reach jack and does decently enough with the rest. I haven't tried him with our melee heavies yet, but that is forthcoming.

Questions and comments welcome!

[gunslingerpro]

Enough for me to consider one again.

[SageofLodoss]

We might be of similar mind, because I went ahead and bought an Overseer and my first test run was with a Reaper. I found it to be rather effective, and I was even facing Khador.

My rather odd, but effective, tactic involved shooting a sacrificial mechanithrall or Necrosurgeon grunt in the back with Scaverous' Feast of Worms spell. Have the Reaper drag a target jack/beast into the AOE, get the free attack, buy a sustained attack with the pseudo-focus, then buy attacks with Soul Matrix. Plus the Overseer got boosted Dark Fire on feat turn. I plan to try it out with some other jacks later.

It's not super good or anything. But I think it is worthy trying out. My Cryx lists were starting to become very "samey" and boring to me. And when that happens when you play 7 factions, it means it is time to shake things up.

And yeah assembly sucks. Had to bend the crap out of mine.

[Decade]

I love my ILO with a seether. He's got a lot going for him with an ILO: Naturally high mat, chain attack, free charging and running, and a free focus each turn. He's marvelous with my Terminus list, because he's got a slightly improved survivability with Shadow of Death from Papa T, and with the new league version of Mady, I've got a jack with 4-5 effective focus each turn (1 from soul drive, 1 from Mady, 1 from JM, 1 from his ability to charge for free, and 1 from his Chain attack). I may try him with a couple other casters eventually, but as of the moment, he's attached to Terminus.

[lastspartacus]

Seether and ILO > DJ?

[Sanctjud]

Only thing I will say is: look at the opportunity cost of the 10 to 12 points packages.
In addition, the opportunity cost of a jack benefiting from cloak of shadows.
It's kind of why pShade is so meh, the feeling of contradiction.

The existence of the Siren also steals his thunder.

I don't mean this with a "rain on parade" purpose, but a "this will be a more balanced approach if you look at the ILO holistically."

Seether and ILO > DJ?

Pretty much, DJ may be restricted in a tourney format...but ILO+Seether could be something else more meaningful...like...10 Raiders with UA and a Captain :3

[IAN LACEY]

I suspect on Sunday I shall get some Cryx versus Cryx action, and if not I shall be paying particular attention to t'other player who will be bringing one. I suppose it behoves me to delay judgement till I see the critter in action. If all else fails, (and usually does in my case), an additional Dark Fire roaming the table would help.

[lastspartacus]

Pretty much, DJ may be restricted in a tourney format...but ILO+Seether could be something else more meaningful...like...10 Raiders with UA and a Captain :3

Which coincidentally could pwn any helljack or ILO+helljack combo, yay infantry machine

[Vex]

I may try him with a couple other casters eventually, but as of the moment, he's attached to Terminus.

What other jack(s) do you take with Terminus? I was under the impression that Terminus wasn't really a jack caster, and since marshaled jacks don't use up warcaster points...

A few other points:
1) There is really no reason to ever take the ILO unless you are already running 2 Warwitch Sirens, and are still looking for a way to run more jacks.
2) Note that, if you marshal a Seether, the Seether will stop getting its free focus should the ILO die.

[Kuwanger23]

Which coincidentally could pwn any helljack or ILO+helljack combo, yay infantry machine

I lost a tournament once in MKII because I brought two lists that were filled with infantry because technically point for point they are better. But then I fought the old witch in a scenario where I had to grab two objectives in the middle of the board. I knew I had lost even before we set up.

[AshenFang]

I lost a tournament once in MKII because I brought two lists that were filled with infantry because technically point for point they are better. But then I fought the old witch in a scenario where I had to grab two objectives in the middle of the board. I knew I had lost even before we set up.

Bad match ups happen, but it's no reason to run away from our factional strengths.

As far as model.. performance, one needs to take into consideration why the model did well, was it because of the model, or several other factors like having really good rolls, opponent ignoring a JM, opponent being not very good in general, etc. Just because yeah, the piece didn't lose you the game, doesn't mean that it as a piece did well. What did he do that made him stand out, in the same way, could your Warcaster have spared whatever focus the ILO provided on that turn to make it stand out, etc.

I know in my meta, Jack Marshalls are targeted, as once they are gone, you have an expensive piece or two, walking around drooling on the battlefield, no more power attacks, no more running or charging, nothing beyond their movement and initial attacks, that when it matters, have a good chance of missing.

[Kuwanger23]

If you can target the stealth guy. He certainly isn't the best option but he can be fun I think.

As for running away from my factions strengths. I would hardly say I am doing that. But you are going to see harbingers and old witches in tournaments so maybe it's a good idea bot to being two infantry heavy lists? That was the lesson I was trying to get across there.

Honestly I have yet to use him. He is 3 points which is tough for me to get around considering no drive. But in 50 points he might be nice to take out for a spin.

[various]

Personally i think that the ILO is being unfairly dismissed by many people: it really hasn't been around long enough for all the potential options/matchups to have been properly explored. Like anything it'll work better with some 'Casters than others and be better against some Factions than others. As far as i can see it is way more durable than the Warwitch Syren and can potentially through more focus to a 'Jack under its control thanks to it's Soul Matrix. Agree that the figure looks good but is a nightmare to put together: that tiny tail piece took a fair while to get to sit right (even after it'd been pinned to both the body and the base.) and the fact that the model is rather top heavy only added to the problems of getting it to stay put.

[dakem]

One addition to the first Post, running an ILO with a harrower in the Scavy theme force is quite fun, as they both start with an additional soul - the harrower nets 3 for when he hits his first melee.

[Decade]

What other jack(s) do you take with Terminus? I was under the impression that Terminus wasn't really a jack caster, and since marshaled jacks don't use up warcaster points...

A few other points:
1) There is really no reason to ever take the ILO unless you are already running 2 Warwitch Sirens, and are still looking for a way to run more jacks.
2) Note that, if you marshal a Seether, the Seether will stop getting its free focus should the ILO die.

First, the full list is Terminus w/ Erebus in his battlegroup, WE&S, Terminus's usual cronies (Wrathe, Mady, Skarlock, WSC), a full unit of McThralls w/ 3 brutes, two surgeon units, and the ILO+Seether. This more than covers my needs for regenerating body shields to protect Terminus, and gives me the hitting power of 3 heavies, only one of which requires any input from Papa T.

The reason I take the ILO+Seether with Terminus is a mater of logistics. The vast majority of the games we play at my FLGS are timed in SR2012 format. Lowering my model count improves my ability to activate everything I have in a single turn. Sure, I could swap out for another unit or two, but that would significantly increase my turn times. I'm not the fastest player, despite having been at this game for a while, and being aware of that, I look for ways to improve my speed. This is one of them. Instead of activating 12+ models, I'm activating two.

I am aware that I don't get to spend points on JM'd jacks. I've already covered that base with Erebus.

To address your points:
1 - True, a pair of sirens is indeed more flexible than an ILO in terms of who they can give focus to. And I do like the sirens. But in my case, it again falls to the realm of logistics. Dropping the ILO for a siren or two means that I'm adding another unit in his place, which makes for a higher model count, which makes for longer turns. As I stated before, I know I have a hard time activating lots of models in the SR2012 format.
2 - Yes, if the ILO dies, the seether loses out on his soul drive focus. But, he's still a MAT 8, charges for free, chain attacking, terror inducing beast of a jack. I chose a seether over, say, a reaper, because even without the ILO, a seether is still a significant threat. And Terminus's SoD improves the ILO's survivability by at least 1/3 by giving him tough.

[Sanctjud]

@Decade, so I assume Deathjack is in the second list?

[Decade]

@Decade, so I assume Deathjack is in the second list?

Aye. Mortenebra T4 is my other list.

[elplagUe]

I dismiss any misgivings the community has about the ILO. Honestly, saying he is useless is rather misguiding. I've posted a batrep in our army list section where the ILO + Reaper gets me a caster kill on eButcher.

To be frank, I believe the ILO is quite valuable. Sure, the siren nets 1, and only ever 1 focus a turn, and she can get rid of disruption - but the ILO is a different beast entirely. He CAN and will push a warjack to a higher level simply because of soul matrix. He's quite survivable, and offers area denial with P+S 13 Reach Fell staff.

Sure, the Siren offers utility, but so does the ILO, and when we're talking sheer killing power, our jack marshal offers the highest rate of attack when comparing investment to other marshals. A Marshalled reaper gets a boosted hit/dam roll, free driver attack, and up to 3 additional attacks if the ILO has souls on it. That's more then our regular casters can achieve, and we're not even touching the focus pool.

[PG_Sobek]

He is 3 points which is tough for me to get around considering no drive.

This is my main issue with him. If he were only 2 points, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with him that I do.

[Vex]

This is my main issue with him. If he were only 2 points, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with him that I do.

Well, at two points he would be an option for some casters at higher point levels, I guess. He's never going to be any good with about half of our casters though, since taking models out of the battle group, and/or failing to spend warcaster points is kind of a deal breaker. What the guy really needs to make him good are a couple of decent light ranged jacks. But, good luck with that in this faction.

[Sanctjud]

I've posted a batrep in our army list section where the ILO + Reaper gets me a caster kill on eButcher.

I've won with Drudges and Corruptors too, and I still think they are crap.
Just because you can do 'something' with them, doesn't mean their opportunity cost is in their favor.

Seriously... alot of things can kill a KD caster with -5 to -7 armor...
(a la pDenny if you have to ask.)
_________________________________

Personally, I think you are oversimplifying. I don't think the 'community' thinks he is useless. He's more of an option that Cryx just doesn't 'need', as there are inherent contraditions with his usage.

Obviously there are players who can look past the surface of the issue and do well with the "crap" options....so with that.
Why have you not expanded upon the ILO usage with all the casters? Maybe you need to focus on explaining why you use him with certain casters and not others.

From the way you present your findings, it's far too... open and general to take more seriously, maybe. /shrug.

[Skorpius47]

This is why I've slowly drifted away from the Cryx Community Forum; there isn't any good constructive discussion. Everything is the same and suggestions about things that are good outside of the standards is always met with a brick-wall mentality. ILO is an awesome and fun model with a lot of options available. It plays many roles and can fill the shoes other models cannot. By refusing to discuss the options and always saying "Deathjack is better every time because I say so" or "I'd rather take these other models because the list with ILO is obviously not using them at all", we're prevented from exploring new things and the game risks stagnation. I suppose it's an unfortunate fate of the game itself, as I've seen this type of discussion in almost every other faction general area on the PiP forums.

[Sanctjud]

This is why I've slowly drifted away from the Cryx Community Forum; there isn't any good constructive discussion. Everything is the same and suggestions about things that are good outside of the standards is always met with a brick-wall mentality. ILO is an awesome and fun model with a lot of options available. It plays many roles and can fill the shoes other models cannot. By refusing to discuss the options and always saying "Deathjack is better every time because I say so" or "I'd rather take these other models because the list with ILO is obviously not using them at all", we're prevented from exploring new things and the game risks stagnation. I suppose it's an unfortunate fate of the game itself, as I've seen this type of discussion in almost every other faction general area on the PiP forums.

The issue is, the explanations of why he can be good, are corner case or oversimplified.

Now, Decade's post:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1366722
Now, THAT IS A GEM.

He lists the rationale and explains the reasons why he has the ILO, with which caster, with what role, and how he wants to use it.
The OP, does not do the same.
He has quantity in that post, but not the same quality. IMO.

[elplagUe]

The issue is, the explanations of why he can be good, are corner case or oversimplified.

Now, Decade's post:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1366722
Now, THAT IS A GEM.

He lists the rationale and explains the reasons why he has the ILO, with which caster, with what role, and how he wants to use it.
The OP, does not do the same.
He has quantity in that post, but not the same quality. IMO.

Oversimplified?

Sanct, I am simply putting out there my experiences with it; it's up to the rest of the community to decide wether or not they wish to try the model. I don't like netdecking so I am not going to breastfeed the community information they can easily go out and obtain if they would simply stop listening to the "wisdom" shared about how awful everything that does't have the adjective Bane in front of it is.

This forum HAS become diluted. There is minimalist discussion about strategy, and meaning no disrespect to you, but you and I are the only two posting any type of strategy or spotlight discussions.

Everyone here is enamored by the tartarus/bane spam, etc. It's tiring, and it keeps the game from growing.

As to your point about Drudges, I don't use the ILO with Denny1. I use him with the Goreshades, Venethrax and Scaverous. In all cases, I think that the ILO offers utility and remains a solid option. I always include 1 siren anyway, but just saying that the siren is better "because" isn't good enough.

The ILO compared to the Siren does essentially the same thing, with the exception of shake effects. Be comparison, however, the Siren cannot run a Helljack to maximum input as an ILO can, and thus the point cost. To me, disruption in my meta is so rare that the Siren is almost redundant. The ILO allows me to get essentially 4 free focus when he's got souls. Math wise that's a pretty solid amount of attacks, and is more then a normal caster could give to any jack that is NOT DJ.

What troubles me about this discussion is exactly what was posted above; People don't frequent the Cryx forums, and even a guy (Ret) in my gaming club comments on how bad they are because of the lack of updated information, and the lack of information beyond "Moar Banez." Hell, he even recalls a post where someone asked for Big T advice and the answer given was "Run at caster. Win game."

[Undead Saboteur]

Listen guys: THE GAME IS STILL YOUNG!!

It's still in the growth stage. I wouldn't take the ILO's current state of being a "subpar option" to include in a list as such a big deal. He may become a more optimal choice in the future. (Near future especially since "Colossals" is coming out here very soon.) Who knows right now. It's not anything certain.

Since the game has some elements and comparisons to MTG, I can't count how many "Magic The Gathering" cards were viewed as crap by both the local and national meta upon it's initial release only to come back a couple of sets later as one to include in every deck. With that said there are just as many cards that have never found their place (like "One With Nothing" for those who know what I am talking about).

There are plenty of miniature models that have never found their place in other tabletop mini games as well. Ever laugh at somebody who played Eldar Swooping Hawks in 40k? That was me. Put them down from deep strike or whatever, roll 30+ dice, kill one model, pick them up on opponents turn. Those minis have been around 20+ yrs and are really only fun to paint. But let's not go there.

I am not a big fan of the ILO because I don't see a purpose for him right now. I might run him with a unit of Banes and the Desecrator but he'll be proxied for a few games before I decide to purchase him. IMO that is the only purpose I see for him.

I remember the first question that came to my mind when the official news/rules came out about the ILO: "I thought the WWS was our version of jack marshal?" IMO the WWS has way more utility with Stealth, Powerboost and Venom.

Right now there are options out there that trump including the ILO in certain builds. If you are running a jack heavy list then by all means throw him in there. I don't see anything wrong with running him in a list that is more than 50pts. If you are playing a casual game or enjoy experimenting with different builds then enjoy! Don't let other peoples opinions bog you down or upset you. Use a batrep to show them results if you need to voice something. Oh yeah, don't forget to HAVE FUN!! It can complicate your life if you take the game too serious!

[Vex]

Oversimplified?

Sanct, I am simply putting out there my experiences with it; it's up to the rest of the community to decide wether or not they wish to try the model. I don't like netdecking so I am not going to breastfeed the community information they can easily go out and obtain if they would simply stop listening to the "wisdom" shared about how awful everything that does't have the adjective Bane in front of it is.

This forum HAS become diluted. There is minimalist discussion about strategy, and meaning no disrespect to you, but you and I are the only two posting any type of strategy or spotlight discussions.

Wow. So, you're upset that the forum doesn't discuss strategy to the depth that you would like, while at the same time you refuse to discuss strategy in any depth because it would be "breastfeeding" people. Of course, the fact that you think "netdecking" is something to worry about, and that your list can be the primary reason for success is also pretty telling.

[elplagUe]

Wow. So, you're upset that the forum doesn't discuss strategy to the depth that you would like, while at the same time you refuse to discuss strategy in any depth because it would be "breastfeeding" people. Of course, the fact that you think "netdecking" is something to worry about, and that your list can be the primary reason for success is also pretty telling.

Telling of what, exactly, Vex? I don't expect any list I post to be a primary source of success. I posted a batrep which the ILO worked, and worked well, and instead of thoughtful input of "Well, in comparison, do you think xxx could have achieved the same?" I get "I've won with drudges. Doesn't make them good."

There is a major difference between discussing strategy and breastfeeding/netdecking and assumptions that seem to be made on a large scale throughout the community.

I digress; I will not continue to contribute "spotlights" or caster overviews. Let's see how far you get in providing thoughtful feedback to the community at large on our forces, as I have yet to see a spotlight or contribution of sorts from you.

[Haeleos]

I think it would be cool with a non-character jack that has overtake, anything sheild-walled or in close formation would just get eaten up if you run the ILO into reach range before charging an end of the chain. Shame there's no way of even giving a jack that ability

Edit: ...oh we already have Slaughterborn for that don't we...

[Sanctjud]

Edit: ...oh we already have Slaughterborn for that don't we...

Gudrun the Wanderer kinda does that too :-/

[Lamoron]

What troubles me about this discussion is exactly what was posted above; People don't frequent the Cryx forums, and even a guy (Ret) in my gaming club comments on how bad they are because of the lack of updated information.

I don't think there's a Faction Forum with more organized and updated information than this one. 70-80% of our tactical articles are less than a year old, and most of them are made after the release of Wrath. Can I ask how long ago this opinion was formed?

, and the lack of information beyond "Moar Banez."

Are you seeing the same Forum I am? The current topics on the front page are about: Colossals, Blackbane's Ghost Raiders, Withershadow Combine, Desecrator, Wraith Engine, model identification (does include some talk about Banes), Recruiting players, Reaper, Chain Lightning spam, Revenants, Epic Skarre, New players, Venethrax, Reinforcements, Steamroller advice, non-character Helljacks, Asphyxious3, Scaverous, Theme lists, transporting Terminus, and the list goes on.

Hell, he even recalls a post where someone asked for Big T advice and the answer given was "Run at caster. Win game."

Solid advice and a great breakdown of Terminus on a deep tactical level.

Honestly I think every topic you've started so far has been showing a severe lack of understanding, and the only reason I've added any of them to the tactica is because I made a deal with myself to add things even when I disagree (to avoid dictator issues).

[Sanctjud]

Lulz, PM me what you want rewrites of, oh Overseer of non-dictatorship...

[elplagUe]

I don't think there's a Faction Forum with more organized and updated information than this one. 70-80% of our tactical articles are less than a year old, and most of them are made after the release of Wrath. Can I ask how long ago this opinion was formed?

Are you seeing the same Forum I am? The current topics on the front page are about: Colossals, Blackbane's Ghost Raiders, Withershadow Combine, Desecrator, Wraith Engine, model identification (does include some talk about Banes), Recruiting players, Reaper, Chain Lightning spam, Revenants, Epic Skarre, New players, Venethrax, Reinforcements, Steamroller advice, non-character Helljacks, Asphyxious3, Scaverous, Theme lists, transporting Terminus, and the list goes on.

Solid advice and a great breakdown of Terminus on a deep tactical level.

Honestly I think every topic you've started so far has been showing a severe lack of understanding, and the only reason I've added any of them to the tactica is because I made a deal with myself to add things even when I disagree (to avoid dictator issues).

I post my spotlights/tactica based on my own experiences. My club games 1-2 nights aweek, we attend at least 2 SR a month... Lack of understanding? Perhaps this is more of a difference in experiences.

70-80%? Every forum has their own tactics/spotlight section. The majority of the posts here any more are not as organized or well thought out when compared to legion, specifically. Thundergod has made absolutely excellent breakdowns of everything from range to math to unit selection, etc, and that's just one example.

I digress, however. Since my severe lack of understanding has clearly hampered our forums, diluted the tactical discussion and forced you to update anything with my bland spotlights and tactics (Nothing I asked for in particular) I simply won't post them anymore; feel free to remove any said tactics/spotlights from the forums if you feel I've mislead anyone.

[Lamoron]

You're entitled to your opinion, just know that you're wrong. You've got three crummy threads with little to no real content, and most of what actually is there is from 2010. I wanted to play Legion but the utter lack of anything useful in that tactica persuaded me otherwise.

[elplagUe]

You're entitled to your opinion, just know that you're wrong. You've got three crummy threads with little to no real content, and most of what actually is there is from 2010. I wanted to play Legion but the utter lack of anything useful in that tactica persuaded me otherwise.

Sure, it may be from 2010, and yes, some of those guys are rather useless... BUT it's a pretty standard opinion in my meta that our forums are useless as well. Some of our stuff is very useful, don't get me wrong; that's not entirely my opinion. I just feel that we need to (as a faction) explore our other options as compared to sticking with what we all know works extremely well. Whenever I mention list advice at the club, I always get the forum generated response "MOAR BANEZ" from the guys we game with, so that thought process does filter out into the community.

My ILO write up may not be to your standards, however, I found that in the games I've played with him, he's helped alot. I wouldn't personally use him with Terminus, because I want those souls on bigT, not on the ILO. That's my thought process there.

[PG_Sobek]

My ILO write up may not be to your standards, however, I found that in the games I've played with him, he's helped alot.

See, it basically comes down to personal play experiences with the model in question. What works for one person, may not work for another person. In your experience he's worth the cost. In my own play experience, I simply have never felt that he's been worth the 3 points. 2 points, sure, I think he'd be on par with many of our other 2 point solos. But at 3 I always find myself thinking that other models available to me would have been more cost effective in game situations. That's my own personal experience with it. And while I haven't posted a huge series of paragraphs supported by differential equations, it doesn't make my opinions any less valid than anyone else's.

[Lamoron]

That's my thought process there.

I'm sorry but you keep telling me what your group says and if they're not here they don't matter the least bit. You will never find the holy grail on an internet forum, but if you do an honest comparison with the other forums here you'll find this one at the top end of the spectrum.

[Phury239]

You're entitled to your opinion, just know that you're wrong. You've got three crummy threads with little to no real content, and most of what actually is there is from 2010. I wanted to play Legion but the utter lack of anything useful in that tactica persuaded me otherwise.

I don't mean for this to be facetious but knowing you Lamoron, I am surprised you didn't take that as a challenge to make some...

[Skorpius47]

Welp, this thread turned to ****. Telling some guy that his threads suck because he sucks at the game instead of disproving his point about the lack of constructive discussion is not a way to counter his claim.

Iron Lich Overseer fits this role:
A model that can make a Warjack self-suffecient while also being defensively solid and offensively viable.
Warwitch Sirens don't really fit this role as well as ILO.

[Sanctjud]

Iron Lich Overseer fits this role:
A model that can make a Warjack self-suffecient while also being defensively solid and offensively viable.
Warwitch Sirens don't really fit this role as well as ILO.

A jack made self-sufficient would by definition mean it would not need an ILO...?
The ILO is not defensive AND offensive. It's defensive OR Offensive.

Siren are BOTH defensive and offensive with permanent stealth and able to still use magic.
While self sufficiency...at least the Siren is cheaper
__________________________________________________ ___

My issue with the original post is the lack of expansion on Caster synergies from the OP's experiences...that is all.

[elplagUe]

Welp, this thread turned to ****. Telling some guy that his threads suck because he sucks at the game instead of disproving his point about the lack of constructive discussion is not a way to counter his claim.

Iron Lich Overseer fits this role:
A model that can make a Warjack self-suffecient while also being defensively solid and offensively viable.
Warwitch Sirens don't really fit this role as well as ILO.

As do most, when considering that you're posting experiences with figures that are not internet popular, and hence why I'll discontinue writing any more reviews, since they're not up to par.

With that being said, a caster breakdown would have been a nice addition, but it wasn't mentioned specifically, or I missed it, prior to this turning into a sh*t show.

I'd ask that moderators please remove this, as I have no interest in updating it with further information, or defending myself from inflammatory nonsense at this stage.

kthx.