best tools vs legion

[PG_somnicide]

So, out of curiosity who do you like caster wise, what do you like in the list and why? On paper I think I like grim a lot, his feat helps counter some of the saeryn shenanigans and his debuffs (assuming he can hit) help deal with their high def. Calandra might be good, but I am worried that their awesome assassination game puts her in the dirt.

As for beasts/units/solos my thinking is:
bomber - is always good and the typical high def / low armor of their troops is somewhat mitigated
ebdt - fairly high pow on weapons that I can steal. plus pathfinder is a decent counter for pathfinder
fell caller - mat bonus and stand up are never bad
janissa - walls are great especially with their average to low mat/rat
runeshapers - (with janissa especially) because they can't count on high def/armor to protect them as they walk out of combat and aoes are good vs high def
kriel warriors - cheap and with medium base size can really take up a lot of table space and mitigate flyover shenanigans and cma and prayer can help hit high def reliably
pyre troll - damage buff and elylyth immunity
mulg for being mulg - although his animus is great at removing tenacity and spiny growth
fenn blades - speed and vengeance can help with their speed above average mat helps

and not so good:
burrowers - so many serpentine models can't be knocked down so their low mat really hurts them
scattergunners - high def again points out their low rat

Anyway, just some of my thoughts while on a lunch break. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Calandra is actually a poor choice against legion.

They will almost always be outside of starcrossed, and they will just attrition her army to death with ravagores and the occasional typhon/scythean, ignoring calandra till last.

Mulg also generally won't do well because Legion will have the alpha strike on him pretty much all the time, they will ranged attack your warlock from so far away prot fit will never be an issue, and he can't get up the board fast enough if they ignore him till they go for the kill.

Against Legion, as I learned yet again after having played Jake this weekend, you need to Jam and jam fast. You need to be in their business turn 1, or they will slide around the board attritioning off your army.
Pyre trolls are great (immunity from Ravagore and Typhon sprays), and pGrissel is great (Enaged and in their face turn 1).

eMadrak is always soild, and Borka is also a really good choice (Cold immunity, alpha strike, high def).

And of course eDoomy is probably one of if not the best counters. He's predictable, but with wild aggression and a pyre trolls animus to toss around he can beat them to the alpha strike and survive while moving up the board.

If you had to twist my arm and make a 50 point list to deal with legion, I'd probably go:

eDoomy
Pyre
Earthborn
Earthborn
Rok
Fennblades + ua
Janissa
Whelps x2
Feralgeist X2

Wild Aggression on a EBDT, refuge on Rok, so he can charge in, spray, wreck face, then scamper back to relative safety, pyre troll animi on beasts until they engage, and always keeping about 3 fury on eDoomy for transfers.

Even that is not fool proof against a good legion player, but it gives you a really good chance, which is all you can really ask for.

[PG_Steamworks]

I find my pDoomshaper list performs very well against Legion, even though I'm currently playing it without a pyre troll. I do find that Forsaken are a real pain and need to be dealt with early if at all possible, but other than that the list tends to roll straight over Legion these days. Saeryn is probably the best match up I can hope for against Legion, as her playstyle is well documented and pDoomy has the tools to deal with it: between Stranglehold, Rampager, and your own feat, you can nullify the feat turn fairly well and then do hideous amounts of damage in return. I haven't come across a Legion list that causes me a great deal of worry when I'm using this particular list (50 points btw):

pDoomshaper
Mulg, DTM
Axer x2
Bouncer
KSB+UA (min)
Janissa
Whelps
War Wagon
Feralgeist

If you're really worried about the lack of fireproofing, then swap out the DTM for an EBDT, and the Bouncer for a Pyre Troll. You'll end up losing the Feralgeist.
There are certain things you have to be very mindful of: Saeryn's deathspurs, Vayl using Rampager (put Banishing Ward on your non-character heavy on turn one), and... well that's about it really. You shouldn't end up playing against eLylyth as a Trollblood player unless the Legion player is gambling on a complete lack of pyre or slag trolls being present, and you have the tools to deal with just about any other list I can think of or have played against.

I'm experimenting with other casters at the moment, and I'd recommend Grim to other people, even if he just doesn't work for me (don't ask, he just doesn't) as lowering the DEF of Legion stuff is always good and they can't make special attacks during his feat turn (unless positioning is terrible). That pretty much removes the Angelius and Seraph as threats.

I find Legion players LOOOOOVE Raptors, and for some reason place them almost against the board edges. This means Bog Trogs LOOOOOOVE Raptors too.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

The Pyre's animus is so lulzy against Legion. Makes me feel good inside.

Also, I find that grabbing an extra one or two defense can be a lifesaver. Stick your earthborn by water, or any beast behind a wall, and all of a sudden those Mat 6 Legion beasts will have a lot harder time killing you.

[nosrek]

Won't do the depth of the other guys, but I wanted to advocate why Grim is good against legion.

Cross country....

Some of my local legion players like positioning the board in their favor (like giant forest center table and just a few inches closer to theory edge) and hide in a forest all game spraying and bombing my forces while denying my charges.

With Grim my bomber says hey **** you cheese **** take a pow 16 to the face. My earthborn says I was made for this **** and charges in stomping typhons super regenerating face. My whackers drop a pow 20 a turn on their sissy armor.


/rant

Beast heavy grim is a good counter for beast heavy legion. I can also agree on the doomies, they play legions game but with style.

Personally I think you should run beast heavy eGrissel with a Kriel stone and a wall of champs screening her. Maybe scouts on a flank because they are great at hurting legion beasts.

[zor]

I like pDoomy vs. Legion for a couple of reasons.
You can plant yourself in high DEF locations with the walls (if going tier) and hang out tossing AoEs (which chew up low armor).
You have purification to remove all that tenacity/spiny/etc.
You have fortune to help hit the higher Def.
BWard to keep from getting fiddled around by angelii.
Rampager to help the beast attrition game.
Feat can help to deny a big turn of forcing.

2nd to that is grim. He plays a little bit more alpha denial with his feat and can negate a lot of their bonuses.

[Ap0th]

Personally, my best luck against legion has been eMadrak. He's virtually assassination proof with the right setup and he can make his infantry hit ridiculously hard.

I run (although I may be forgetting something):

eMadrak
-Mulg (or Dire/Impaler depending on how I feel)

Full Fens + UA
Full Dygmies
KSB + UA
Full Tuffalo
Horthol
Fell Caller
Champ Hero

Jamming works incredibly well in this list and, frankly, I've found this to be the best way to handle beast heavy legion regardless of the faction I'm playing. Use the Fenns to jam up angels and Seraphs. Use the pygs to rip apart the ravagores. The tuffalo usually move on a flank and clean up.

[Arizona_Troll]

Personally, my best luck against legion has been eMadrak. He's virtually assassination proof with the right setup and he can make his infantry hit ridiculously hard.

I run (although I may be forgetting something):

eMadrak
-Mulg (or Dire/Impaler depending on how I feel)

Full Fens + UA
Full Dygmies
KSB + UA
Full Tuffalo
Horthol
Fell Caller
Champ Hero

Jamming works incredibly well in this list and, frankly, I've found this to be the best way to handle beast heavy legion regardless of the faction I'm playing. Use the Fenns to jam up angels and Seraphs. Use the pygs to rip apart the ravagores. The tuffalo usually move on a flank and clean up.

I second this. I like to bring eMadrak with Viktor Pendrake against Legion. He gives our infantry boosted melee attack rolls, and eMadrak gives them Blood Fury. Fennblades and Cabers under these circumstances just chew through the relatively fragile legion beasties.

I've also had good success recently with Jarl since he can bring lists that get the alpha strike against many legion opponents.

[crazypackage]

A key thing to remember is that a Ravagore will love seeing eMadrak surrounded by Grim Salvation targets. Unless they are skirting the 1 inch range, 1 direct hit on eMad will put a lot of trollkin on fire. Thank goodness for the KSB Elder. Always consider if no continuous effects is a better option than +1 Str or no Incorp/Stealth.

[sourclams]

pDoomy and Grim both love themselves some Legion. pDoomy brick can Ravager forward 1 beast/turn while being more or less immune to most reprisal due to wall and natural troll resilience. His only issue is against a fast flanking legion list that can get in his backfield to mess stuff up.

Grim is heinous against Saeryn. His feat will shut down her feat and he can both threaten Saeryn with shooting and also snipe a lot of the important solos and lessers in her lists like Hellions, Shredders, and Harriers.

[PG_joedj]

Pendrake. Extra attack dice for a whole unit makes the high DEF Angelius, Seraph, and Raek unhappy. Even messes with spammed-on Tenacity on Typhon, Shredders, etc.

For Warlock I like eDoomie and at least 2 EBDTs. Similar to PG_petegrrr's list above. EBDT's Pathfinder plus Feat often allows firststrike on the Legion heavies, with friendly Feralgeist inhabitance (forces wasted attacks Legion on Legion!)

Mobility of Legion is the trick and their route to assassination. If you can beat 'em to the punch, then protect with screening and Transfers, Trolls should win the attrition game.

[Ravir]

The Pyre has been mentioned, but just in case anybody doesn't fully realize WHY... His animus gives immunity to fire. Pretty much ALL of Legion's "assassination shooting" is fire based. Oh look, your caster is immune to Legion beast ranged attacks. That's also why I like Borka w/ Pyre vs Legion. With animus he's immune to their beast blasts, and by default he's immune to Hoarfrost. Really annoys them.

oh, and how can you guys not mention Lanyssa Ryssyl? Stripping eyeless sight and pathfinder, a boosted attack and damage magic blast at something ain't nothing to sneeze at. Just gotta keep from exposing her too soon, 'cause they hate her as much as she hates them.

[Goris]

oh, and how can you guys not mention Lanyssa Ryssyl? Stripping eyeless sight and pathfinder, a boosted attack and damage magic blast at something ain't nothing to sneeze at. Just gotta keep from exposing her too soon, 'cause they hate her as much as she hates them.

This comment bothers me because it's nothing more then trying to stick it to your legion player/buddy/whatever. She is so crappy in ANY other list for her points that you never see her on the table. Don't net deck your friends or people at your LGS. It's poor sportsmanship and will likely make you generally unliked. The pyre is so universaly useful that he finds his way into most lists. The immunity is just the icing.

[PG_somnicide]

Yeah we don't tend to make lists specifically to take out what our opponent is bringing, but we do like to look for ways of tweaking our competitive lists to make them better against obvious weaknesses. The exception to this is sometimes we want to test a worst case scenario where we take our balanced list against the worst possible match up, which is what I was looking for her to help prepare him for a divide and conquer tourney. We have found if you have at least one game that you are completely screwed in it takes off quite a bit of anxiety if you face it when it matters.

[TheHydrogenator]

Lanyssa is a trap, she is squishy and easily taken care of. All it does is force his order of activations the turn she uses her ability. The only reason to take her is to increase your threat ranges, not to "hose" Legion because she doesn't do that

[Goris]

Regardless of how effective she is the behavior of bringing things that counter specific factions or lists like that is pretty detestable IMO. Which was the message I was trying to convey. Lanyssa is junk in my opinion. She does nothing that we don't already do except die easier.

[crazypackage]

Anyone who actually uses Lanyssa will tell you she is weaker against Legion then against any other faction in the game. Except Cygnar....sometimes. She is very useful for the charge threat, however. If that 2pts is worth it to you, then by all means take her.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Lanyssa is much better against non-Legion factions. Legion players can take her off the table so trivially it is ludicrous.

That said, I think that beast bricks that can get very resilient can work, but you must have enough speed to hit back if they can fade. Also, watch out for eVayl who can purgate things off of you.

Also, eMadrak has worked well for me. Super jammy, and Dygmies are actually good against Legion. Yes, Dygmies suck against Angels, but I find that the Ravagores, Carniveans and Scytheans are generally the more important beasts in a Legion list than the Angels and definitely the Seraphs. They are all easily hit by Dygmies, even without knockdowns. Just have the Fenns/Kriels/Long Riders or Scouts go for the high defense beasties and/or casters.

[Gdead909]

LOL I bought lanissa just to get the hunters mark but even if she was in my list I would take her out of it when I play my buddy for legion. 1) It makes him feel better see rule page 5. 2) He would kill her with such extreme vengeance it would be worth the two points.

The only time I think she is worth anything is if you take her with grim. She is in desperate need of hunter to be able to do her job

[Murkhadh]

Last few times I played eDoomy using pVayl I shredded him, I could see him working against some of the others but avoid pVayl vs Edoomy beast heavy. Rampager messes Doomy up pretty bad. And she can send her beasts pretty far with leash and slipstream.

[Ravir]

I've snuck Lanyssa in for Hunter's Mark before vs arbitrary factions, just for fun. Playing Speedball with an Earthborn is good times for everyone, right? Even with pGrissel, hit him with Rift just to make him faster for a turn.