Assassin Attritions: Can it be done?

[FeralJim]

Hey guys,

I'm begun training for my States September Championships and I have three 35 point lists that I'm testing:

Saeryn +5
Angelius 9
Angelius 9
Angelius 9
Seraph 8
Forsaken 2
Forsaken 2
Spell Martyr 1

eLylyth
Ravagore 10
Ravagore 10
Bolt Thrower 5
Bolt Thrower 5
Seraph 8
Shepherd 1
Shepherd 1

pVayl
Typhon 12
Ravagore 10
Scythean 9
Seraph 8
Shepherd 1

What do people think? This what I came up with on my own and I've been running them through on Vassal all week. I'm afraid they pretty much all do the exact same thing, only in slightly different ways. This seems like a real problem.

Saeryn secures assassinations with speed and denial while running Beasts.

eLylyth threatens kills from absurd ranges while using Beasts (but suffers from really horrible match ups).

pVayl jumps you with her 22" Typhon Spray and 16" Scythean threats while ... running all Beasts (she can have a hard time too, in particular Cryx debuffers, heavy attrition lists and anything thats fast with good shooting like Kraye).

I made and tested all three lists independent of each other and none of them seem strong at attrition, scoring (or even contesting) control points. So they often fall over completely in SR2012 Scenarios or if they can't get the kill.

I really want a strong Legion list that is fantastic at attrition and I'm struggling to find it.

What can I do to change this? Ideally I would like one army for assassinations, one for attrition and one sitting comfortably in the middle. Can I do this with my choice of Warlocks and still compete nationally?

How can I mix in some infantry while keeping each list rock solid?

Running so many Beasts in all three lists seems like a *huge* weakness just waiting to be exploited against me.

Thank you all for any insight you can hand out... I love each of you... In the Legionist possible way.

[SillySod]

You play on vassal?

Tell us what name you go by and I'll be sure to catch you for a game sometime. I've not been on this week but I'm usually around quite a bit. Ideal place to talk list strategy IMO.

Just as a note though - I don't think you want to split things between assassination and attrition. It doesnt really cover your bases. A better way forwards would be to split between melee and range - I l like to have one list thats hyper-melee or hyper-ranged and then a second list that is more balanced but leans gently in the opposite direction. Almost any list you build will have a reasonable asassination threat in any case. That's one of the key advantages of legion.

Also, you need some infantry to perform light tarpitting.

[SillySod]

Urgh, phone posting.

[Finnith]

Ill repost Neutralyze's excellent article on caster selection:

http://museonminis.com/mind-tricks-3/


I think all your lists will suffer from mass infantry spam. 2 Deathstalkers and/or striders is very important for general infantry clearance. Also having an infantry option in there just to tie up a unit, force a trample or block charge lanes is a great option to have.

On your eLylyth list be ready to drop a bolt thrower for the naga when he comes out, also boltthrowers are 6 points. Probably drop the seraph too for 2 death stalkers and Annyssa or full striders if you can find a point from somewhere.

I dont have enough experience with Saeryn to comment and Im probably the worlds worst pVayl player so I cant offer much help on her.

[Northern Ronin]

All of these look like very standard lists for their casters. I'd trade one Angelious for something in the Saeryn list just to have a greater spectrum of beasts, likely a Naga and some stuff when it is open.

[JosephKerr]

I'd trade one Angelious for something in the Saeryn list just to have a greater spectrum of beasts, likely a Naga and some stuff when it is open.

I'd concur and recommend a Scythean for the ability to RFP enemy models while also ignoring . This should give you a better attrition advantage than currently exists in the list against a lot of hard match ups (eGhaspy comes to mind, as do the Trollbloods).

[SageofLodoss]

I don't have time to post in depth right now, since still at work, but the lack of Tenacity in all three lists is mind boggling to me. Mileage may vary, but yeah.

At least one of your lists needs to limit itself to 2-3 heavies and work in some key solos and/or units in there to deal with tarpits, to tarpit themselves, or deal with infantry spam, and contest control areas off by themselves while your beasts are free to do their own thing.

Bolt Throwers cost 6. You're 2 points over in your eLylyth list.

About Attrition: pThagrosh and Kallus are our attrition casters, for the most part. Absylonia somewhat, but requires careful play for it to work. If what you are really gunning for is attrition, you probably need to bring one of them. We're a glass cannon faction. We combine mobility, speed, and movement shenanigans with brute strength and kill power in exchange for not being able to hold our ground very well. If you want attrition, you've got to create it from the certain casters and models that were designed to give us more in that regard. In this case: Spiny Growth + -2 Strength aura, all troops just refresh as Incubi, and Spiny Growth + you don't get focus/you can't be forced here.

[Episkopos]

I take it you are completely enamored with Slipstream, so I'm not going to pick on the Seraph.

First thing, Isn't Bolt Thrower 6 points?

In the Elylyth list, one of those Bolt Throwers could be Anyssa Ryvaal or two Death Stalkers to fix the points, for taking down important solos, drawing attention away from your main army, or harassing your opponent's back line if they don't try to deal with it.

The Saeryn list looks like kinda anemic. The third Angelius would probably serve you better as a Scythean or a Raek, Shredder, and three points of fun as you see fit.
The Scythean is just straight up solid, no specific synergies needed.
Tenacity making the Angels def 15 can make people cry, and Raek always finds the best placements to drop a Blight Bringer in.

[SageofLodoss]

IMO, Saeryn should be a Denial caster first, a Scenario caster second, and an assassin caster third. She can do a little bit of everything, so you should build an army that can help her do a bit of everything. I concur that one Angelius could be swapped for a Scythean. And a Shredder would be good so you can spam tenacity on the Angeli, and either a lesser or Raek makes for an ideal blight bringer target.

I don't think the Saeryn list needs the Seraph as much. If you switch out a Scythean in there, then Slipstream definitely has its golden moments with them, but I think you need blight bringer deliverers or strong support more importantly.

Seraphs are great with pLylyth, but with eLylyth, you might consider taking some stuff that can perform in melee or tarpit. That lessens the potential bad matchup of a hard to hit/target caster whose army just double runs in the first two turns to put Titan Bronzebacks or whatever engaged with your Ravagores before you feat. You could also try wedging in Raptors or Anyssa to make the eLylyth army better at Scenario/objective. As is, you'll find yourself woefully unable to keep up with enemy infantry that spreads out and controls objective zones while your guys are mostly staying back.

[FeralJim]

You play on vassal?

Tell us what name you go by and I'll be sure to catch you for a game sometime. I've not been on this week but I'm usually around quite a bit. Ideal place to talk list strategy IMO.

Just as a note though - I don't think you want to split things between assassination and attrition. It doesnt really cover your bases. A better way forwards would be to split between melee and range - I l like to have one list thats hyper-melee or hyper-ranged and then a second list that is more balanced but leans gently in the opposite direction. Almost any list you build will have a reasonable asassination threat in any case. That's one of the key advantages of legion.

Also, you need some infantry to perform light tarpitting.

Hey SillySod, I go by FeralJim on Vassal. My rooms aren't usually locked so feel free to hit me up for a chat. pVayl does a good job of being fairly in your face, so does Saeryn. eLylyth is I guess the only hyper-ranged option we have but she's a good one.

@ Finnith I think your totally right brother. After reading the community's advice on this I'm now thinking of dropping the Seraph and Shepherd from pVayl and adding in Annyssa and 3 Raptors.

This may leave me with Fury problems though so I could take Striders + UA and rock a Shepherd and a Martyr as my other choice.

@ Jaster/Joseph I haven't proxied the Naga yet so I'm not sure on whether I like him outside of eLylyth. I take 3 Angelius because 2 are usually needed for the caster kill and this gives me plenty of breathing room.

If I take a Scythean in Saeryns list I'm going to need some ranged anti infantry clearing as at the moment I have nothing to stop the screen blocking my Scytheans charge. The poor guy can do almost anything but he does need a little bit of support in this case.

What I'm really taking away from my other thread is that I need to be making better use of Raptors, Annyssa, Striders, Deathstalkers and Hex Hunters because all of these are great at what's giving me trouble: Infantry!

I feel like all of my lists could make use of at least one of these modules. Is there any reason why I would keep one of the three lists as Beasts only? If so which one? All three have big Battlegroup only abilities.

@Sage It's pretty rough trying to make room for Tenacity just because most good Legion Units/Beasts come in lots of 10. Every now and then you get a spare point or two but in those cases you often desperately need to buy Fury Management.

After using Thagrosh nonstop for 40+ games I now think his a pretty bad Warlock in comparison with our top three and other factions best. I am loathe to go anywhere near him again. It's like playing with your kneecaps kicked in.

Kallus does almost the exact same thing as Thags but better. Take a look at this:

Host of Angels > Dark Revival
Unyielding < Death Shroud
Ignite > Draconic Strength
Eruption > Obliteration
Flame Burst < Eruption of Ash
Flashing Blade > Mutagenesis
Dark Guidance > Fog of War & Bad Blood

Even with the extra oomph I'm not sure Kallus can compete with the likes of Saeryn, eLylyth or pVayl for a spot. Dark Guidance is pretty awesome but Kallus is too low on Fury to be A grade. He might be a low B.

If Kallus was Fury 7, Guidance worked on Gatormen and he had an extra point of armour he might be really competitive. As it is I feel he falls just short of the mark.

Do people think I'm wrong here?

[JosephKerr]

One thing I've noticed in my games with Saeryn is that her feat is pretty brutal if you use it to rush in, clear out the front ranks of the enemy army, then feat and leave them nothing to attack. I've used it to assassinate a grand total of one game and prefer to use it more to remove twice as many models as I normally would be able to without losing anything of my own in return. Mileage may vary, however, if you want to use her mainly for assassination. Honestly, the Seraph can often do what a second/third Angelius would do, i.e. fly over the enemy and hit the caster/lock with boosted 14's. It can even trigger the occasional Poison hit since it will normally needs to boost to hit anyway.
That's just my take though. If you're planning on using Saeryn to be an assassination lock I would recommend running her tier list. You'd only need to drop the Forsakens and add a Sorceress to get to level 3 which, at +1 on starting roll AND a 2" extension to your deployment zone, would help speed up to the enemies lines and make sure you get the Alpha Strike. I'm very curious to hear how you improve your army through further play. Please give us some updates as you get more games under your belt!
EDIT: The Sorceress does give you the ability to charge and get another fully boosted attack out of your Angelii on the Assassination Run.

[Thamarite Merc]

Maybe you could switch to B&B and some Hex Hunters, Striders and some Incubbi,

Beth is almost the only warlock in Legion actually supporting her infantry instead of buffing her battlegroup or smashing the opponent faster. Stealthed shooty guys can cause a lot more damage, than they take themselves, and the incubbi make sure, they always die with a revenge. They run faster and shoot more than the other side, and they have good command, so they can space out well against AoEs. Get some Seraphs and Angelius and avoid costly confrontation, while you whittle your opponents to death. Or a carnivean and a Scythian, to draw the aggro, while the units benefit.

Hard to stop bricks in their tracks with just the stealthy guys, but even if they can see through the stealth, you still outshoot them from concealment, and if they can negate cocealment, you are still stealthed.

Carnivore help the units rough up other light infantry, that might want to mess with them, Blood Thorn makes them dangerous against heavies, and Gallows helps with battlefield control.

[Neutralyze]

Kallua does not do what pthags does and better. Sorry to say.

[PG_vengence88]

You seem obsessed with Seraph, and bolt thrower is indeed 6 points and I'd drop one for Naga when hes out

[SageofLodoss]

@ Finnith I think your totally right brother. After reading the community's advice on this I'm now thinking of dropping the Seraph and Shepherd from pVayl and adding in Annyssa and 3 Raptors.

This may leave me with Fury problems though so I could take Striders + UA and rock a Shepherd and a Martyr as my other choice.

You already have a Shepherd in the pVayl list, and you'd have 3 heavies. Even if you maxed all three, 1 Shepherd could handle one of them (ideally the Ravagore), and pVayl has enough Fury to take the rest back. And you'll hardly be forcing 12 Fury every turn.

@ Jaster/Joseph I haven't proxied the Naga yet so I'm not sure on whether I like him outside of eLylyth. I take 3 Angelius because 2 are usually needed for the caster kill and this gives me plenty of breathing room.

Again, I think if you focus on caster kill with Saeryn, your opponent (if good and knows what she does), will keep their caster back, knowing that the immune to freestrikes turn is coming. 9/10 times her feat is better served either as a way to get 2 alpha strikes, or defensively to hold scenario or ensure alpha strike (when opponent is trying to lure you in for his own).

If I take a Scythean in Saeryns list I'm going to need some ranged anti infantry clearing as at the moment I have nothing to stop the screen blocking my Scytheans charge. The poor guy can do almost anything but he does need a little bit of support in this case.

This is why most people take a nimble blight bringer target, such as Harrier or Raek. It flies/jumps into ideal position. Blight bringer. Hey, no more enemy troops in that area. If they are heavy infantry, Scythean does well against those.

What I'm really taking away from my other thread is that I need to be making better use of Raptors, Annyssa, Striders, Deathstalkers and Hex Hunters because all of these are great at what's giving me trouble: Infantry!

Don't forget that you can also counter infantry just by tarpitting them or matching them with cheap infantry of your own to keep them from clogging the spaces you want. Legionnaires and Swordsmen aren't the best that Legion offers, but their MAT and POW is more than enough to deal with enemy infantry.

Keep in mind, for instance, that I've had opponents RUN Bane Thralls, Fennblades, and Praetorians into my heavies, getting no attacks, but just intending to distract them from heavier incoming targets.

@Sage It's pretty rough trying to make room for Tenacity just because most good Legion Units/Beasts come in lots of 10. Every now and then you get a spare point or two but in those cases you often desperately need to buy Fury Management.

You don't need to spam our expensive heavies. It seems nice, but then you run into infantry problems and some other matchups. 2-3 will work fine, and you should be able to fit both a Shredder and Fury management in there afterwards (I do it all the time). I don't believe I have EVER fielded a list without at least one Shredder. The one extra DEF makes Angeli stave off infantry attacks, the extra ARM has, in some cases, staved off an assassination run that would have killed me otherwise. I want to include one for Tenacity (and Warlock guardian missile) almost as much as I like to include Skarlock Thralls or Squires in my Cryx and Cygnar lists.

After using Thagrosh nonstop for 40+ games I now think his a pretty bad Warlock in comparison with our top three and other factions best. I am loathe to go anywhere near him again. It's like playing with your kneecaps kicked in.

Well, your experience baffles me, and I think "bad warlock" is a horrible stretch to arrive at when comparing him to our 'faction best.' Good casters are considered competitive because they give you options against many situations, and those options don't get shut down too often. That leads to you being able to respond well to many different enemy armies that you may encounter, and thus lower chances of a bad matchup. But mitigating bad matchups is only part of the process. pThagrosh may not rank as high as Saeryn, pVayl, and eLylyth, but by no means should playing with him ever feel like your kneecaps are kicked in. Did you ever try using Swordsmen or Raptors with him, which all perform well in his army builds? If you're too beast heavy with pThags at higher than 25 points, then IMO you're not giving him a good build.

Kallus does almost the exact same thing as Thags but better. Take a look at this:

Kallus plays very differently than pThags: more of an all out rush for the enemy/objective playstyle, and tendency to field a bit more infantry than pThags. His buffs are offensive in nature, while pThags helps escort our troops better with less losses.

Host of Angels > Dark Revival

They work too differently to make such a blanket statement IMO. Dark Revival has RFP counters, but you can watch for those and be wary. The beast may not be able to attack, but it can use its animus and move, so it can be a way to sneak an objective point, and ideally just get a big beast back in the game. Host of Angels is great for tarpitting and slowing the enemy down. If you are already in the control zone, you can attempt to hold it with this feat via Incubi. If your opponent has enough attacks though, the can freely kill the spawned Incubi. Both of them can work well, and returns for Host of Angels go up with point value while Revival goes down, but its effectiveness on the scenario depends on what that scenario is.

Unyielding < Death Shroud
Ignite > Draconic Strength

A bit yes. I'd say they were about even, since Draconic blessing also gives Terror, but coupling Ignite with Dark Guidance makes the crit more likely.

Eruption > Obliteration

It's a bigger decision though, for him to decide to spend his Fury on Eruption as opposed to Thagrosh deciding to throw out one Obliteration. Eruption is simply an awesome spell, though I've gotten a lot of use out of Oblit on low ARM infantry that are a little more spread out.

Flame Burst < Eruption of Ash
Flashing Blade > Mutagenesis

Flashing Blade is for clearing people away from the caster. Mutagenesis is a fun little distance spell. Forces your opponent to not keep infantry or solos next to important targets.

Dark Guidance > Fog of War & Bad Blood

Offensive vs. Defensive/Tactical. Fog of War makes most of our infantry DEF 16+ against shooting, and our own beasts don't care about the enemy having it.

Like with Eruption, Dark Guidance is a big choice for Kallus. You have to choose what you are doing with Kallus for one turn, and if its Dark Guidance, that's pretty much it. Thag can upkeep Fog of War and the occasional Bad Blood without it majorly effecting his turn.

Even with the extra oomph I'm not sure Kallus can compete with the likes of Saeryn, eLylyth or pVayl for a spot. Dark Guidance is pretty awesome but Kallus is too low on Fury to be A grade. He might be a low B.

If Kallus was Fury 7, Guidance worked on Gatormen and he had an extra point of armour he might be really competitive. As it is I feel he falls just short of the mark.

He's not super competitive. But I'm one of those people that doesn't think that matters too much. If I can have a close scenario match against a very good, champion Cryx player's eDenny list with Kallus, then that's good enough for me.

Do people think I'm wrong here?

I think you maybe sometimes underestimate things that shouldn't be underestimated, and sometimes overestimate one strength/role of something at the expense of other roles/strengths that you should also be considering. Not wrong, per se, but I don't think its healthy to say "This isn't high tier, therefore its crippling." I mean, part of the reason we have no Crutch 2012 is because people are trying to break out of the rut of just playing with the highest ranked stuff or the stuff they've grown too comfortable with.

[Northern Ronin]

Do people think I'm wrong here?

I think you're wrong about Kallus being a B, and Kallus being a better Thagrosh. To compare such laterally different spells as Mutagenesis and Flashing Blades is a good indicator of that. They don't even remotely do the same thing, their only similarity is they are corner case spells. The ability to afford to cast his spells, and a radically different feat, and how good Death Shroud is make for a very different caster.

[Beckman]

Saeryn +5
Angelius 9
Angelius 9
Angelius 9
Seraph 8
Forsaken 2
Forsaken 2
Spell Martyr 1

I want to comment on this list for a second. While it's true that this list has some great assassination potential, I think you will have some very difficult problem matchups.

Specifically, any caster who is small based and has good defense. I would play some games with it, but imagine that you are playing against... Say... pVlad. He's DEF: Unhittable, and your only option is to try to Breathstealer him (which, may not hit). Worse, if you DO hit him, he's a small base! So no halving armor for you! P+S16. Unimpressive, when he can be ~ARM22ish You're looking at dice-6 on the first attack (you're likely to miss), and dice-8 on the following ones. Your dice will have to be smoking to get that job done.

Since you DO have 3 of them, you may be able to Wing It (Har, Har.. Did you see what I did there?), but I think counting on getting the Angelous into the enemy caster every game is unrealistic.

Last, since you have no Tenacity in your list, your Angelous are going to suffer against shooting on feat turn with their ARM17. DEF15/ARM18 is worlds better than DEF14/17. Night and day, really. Since you have no tarpit or deathstalkers, infantryspam may also be an issue. Angelous are marginally better than Scythean against large numbers of infantry, but I think they're still weak against countercharges by second wave units. They're too expensive to send into a tarpit, really.

Better, would be to send a shredder into the enemy unit and Blight Shroud it - nuking guys and messing up charge lanes.

You've got nobody in your list that can slam in order to get around high DEF. I've played Saeryn lately... and using a Scythean to slam a shredder or other random friendly into the enemy and proceed to win via buying attacks is a good strategy against saaay... Ashlynn on feat turn, or some other unkillably high DEF warcaster. If it's not possible to get at the enemy like that, slamming a shredder or other friendly at the enemy and shooting it with Seraph strafes and Hellfires is rather effective as well, sometimes.

Angelous and Seraph cannot slam because of Serpentine.