Curious about Circle Crutches

[fee_nix]

Hey was reading through some posts the other day about different factions crutch units.

And for the life of me I couldnt think what Circle consider to be there crutch units, do we actually have any?

Not that Im going to run out and buy them if I dont already have them, this is honestly just curiosity .

[The Golden Arrow]

Shifting Stones... and I think that's the only thing actually. Some warbeasts are very good as well, but we still see many different options.

[jdeckert]

Definitely the shifting stones and the gorax. Maybe the stalker. I tend to run Megalith a LOT, but that might just be my personal crutch.

[fee_nix]

Weird, I have shifting stones just never used them. Just cant quite seem to fit them into lists.

[Ironmoose]

Shifting stones for me, have yet to field a circle list without them.



Ironmoose

[VagrantPoet]

I guess Stalkers were a crutch for some, but Ghetorix is great competition and alot of people and some lists favor the feral. I don't know that shifting stones are a crutch. Their like the squire for cygnar, built into the faction as a part of how it works. We also don't have as strictly stratified 'lock tiers as some. We have better and worse locks, but people can play most of them effectively. See the Wurmwood revival for example.

[PG_Jack Tesla]

I would have to say the Stalker, It can do anything and then live to fight another day. It really is the best beast we have, hands down.

[akroma1979]

+1 to shifting stones AND stone keeper

[txiab]

Shifting Stones make it into all my lists, but I don't feel like they are a crutch per se (just like I wouldn't call the Choir a crutch). Just handy. I know many Circle players always take the Druids, so maybe they are a crutch. I tend to reach for my WoO or Bloodtrackers.

[Menoth's Gambit]

The only thing that I consistently put in lists are shifting stones.

[Blaque]

I say Shifting Stones are for a lot of people. I do think you can have viable lists without htem, but they are easy to put in and utilize, so they are seen a lot anyhow.

I think Megalith and the Warpwolf Stalker are the two other big ones. Megalith you'll see as the first Geomancer for most lists if they want it. The Warpwolf Stalker is the huge toolbox that it is. This is despite Megalith being actually pretty pillow-fisted and the Stalker being inaccurate, but we take thema nyhow.

I actually don't think the Gorax is one. He's more a math-fix that costs points a lot of the time, as there are a lot of things Circle outright cannot kill if he's not htere and these tend to be critical things you need to be able to take down when the time calls for it.

And stuff.

[santospr]

I think really it comes down to what you consider a crutch. In my opinion, circle does not really have a crutch like say other armies (biggest one is presence of bane thralls and tartarus in most cryx lists).

My definition of a crutch is that you almost always put it in the lists and once it is gone, you almost always never win. That is why I believe that circle does not really have one. Shifting stones are great, but if I don't include them or lose them quickly, my plan does not drastically change that I lose automatically. Options change but that happens with any lossof a model.

Maybe a crutch would be stalker with kromac?

[Warcaster Feiss]

Shifting Stones make it into most of my lists, but they're not absolutely critical to my game plan most of the time, they just open up more options.

The Gorax however, makes it into most lists with furry 'beasts present and he most definitely can be critical if there's a lot of heavy targets on the table, and if he gets taken out before the heavy targets are eliminated then the game often does go down the chute!

[Walter]

Bloodtrackers and Druids go into 50% of my lists, Stalker/Gorax into all non-Baldur lists.

[Asdrubael]

I am surprised I haven't seen this yet, but druids strike me as a crutch. They're an amazing toolbox, but at 9 points, if they die incredibly early, your gameplan is likely drastically impacted. I tend to overuse these guys, relying on their chain pulls to set up a lot of my tactics. They're just so freaking good.

I like what was said about the stones and the squire. It seems like the stones are more an aspect of our faction that's already written into the equation moreso than a crutch. They show up in damn near every list, but if they die, you're typically only marginally affected.

[null_sheen]

Again ill echo Shifting Stones they are the only thing that i appear to use in every list. Gorax would be a close second with it going into ever list with living warbeasts.

Druids may appear in all my lists at 50 points bar Kromac, before that i just find them to expensive and can get another beast for the points.
I think the only caster i always put them with is eKrueger.

But then i could say the same with Kromac with Warpwolf Stalker, Baulder's with Megalith and pKrueger with Bloodweavers and Feral Warpwolf.

[Jables]

Stalker. It feels wrong playing without him. I'm going to start weening myself off Stalker use and see what other beasts Circle has, but it will be tough. Feral looks okay I guess. Has no Pathfinder though. Or Reach. Or Berserk... I'm going to take a Stalker I think.

Also, I'll echo some of the other comments here by saying that Stones aren't a crutch; they are just part of how the faction works. You wouldn't call the Choir a crutch.

[Vicomte Athos]

In general I thinks it's the Shifting Stones and the Stalker.

Me personally it's the Gnarlhorn. He might be slightly pillow fisted but he makes up for it in versatility and control. Now if we get a beast with a range 6 Trash animus, whoa boy.

[PG_Draxos]

I don't know about the Gorax being a crutch. I mean he isn't needed with mohsar and cassius since they have Cos but alot of others want him.

The stones are a crutch if and ONLY if the choir is a crutch.

[VOLK]

Weird, I have shifting stones just never used them. Just cant quite seem to fit them into lists.

You are a crazy person. At least one unit of Shifting stones should go in a Circle list before the warlock.

They aren't a crutch, either, they are just part of what makes Circle work. Skorne has paingivers, Menoth has choir, Circle has shifting stones, etc.

[VOLK]

I don't know about the Gorax being a crutch. I mean he isn't needed with mohsar and cassius since they have Cos but alot of others want him.

The stones are a crutch if and ONLY if the choir is a crutch.

Primal is about more than just the +2 STR. Sometimes that +2 MAT is far more important.

[skillt]

I think people are missing the point of what a "crutch" is. A crutch would be a non-essential unit/model that you rely strategies on. Things like shifting stones are essential, much like choir and pain givers. Its not the same thing as a crutch. Druids/Megalth can be a crutch. They are units that people rely on to make strategies work that may not A) be optimal or B) be used as a way to beat a faction without really learning the match-up. A WWStalker is simply another thing some circle lists require to function, there fore not a crutch (In the same way a gladiator makes it into most Skorne lists).

Will

[Ruan]

I can't say I consider the Stalker a crutch, mainly because I started playing Circle well before he came out. While the Stalker's a great warbeast, there are times and places where something is better. Plus, it has a weakness - it's low MAT. I've lost track of how many times I've sent an unbuffed Stalker at something and had it survive because it missed.

The Gorax acts like a crutch - that is to say, it's a warbeast that supports the weakness of other warbeasts. Warbeast can't hit something? Give it Primal. Warbeast can't kill something? Give it Primal. What really prevents the Gorax from actually being a crutch is that little part of Primal that forces the warbeast to frenzy afterward. That makes it enough of a double-edged sword that players are forced to at least attempt to find alternatives. Ghetorix helps here, as he has that magic MAT 7 and can get to a high enough P+S between himself and a warlock buffing him that putting Primal on him is going to be overkill.

Megalith, while a great all around warbeast, is precisely that - an all around warbeast. He doesn't have a high enough potential damage output by himself to be a heavy killer, and doesn't have the means (aside from Geomancy) to really be an infantry killer.

Druids, while a good all around unit, are a toolbox that can be countered. Once opponents wise up, smart opponents kill your leader to pop Counter Magic, stick things in front/behind their heavies to prevent pushmepullyou shenanigans, and can have Hunter to often get around Vortex.

Shifting Stones are also, of course, a great unit -undoubtably my favorite unit in Circle because they're so useful - but they're no crutch to the point of 'if you don't take these, you're a stupid Circle player'. I've run multiple lists without Shifting Stones, and while I missed their utility, I still won the game. You never go 'if I had Shifting Stones, I would have won that game!' because while it's great if you can pull it off, generally you're only ever going to Teleport a warbeast into killing range of a warlock is if they make a mistake or have yet to get a feeling for how the Stones work. Most of the time my opponents make the mistake of killing just one stone and leaving it at that, only to swear later when he sees them sitting quite happily in his charge lane. Heh.... I once enclosed Molik Karn in no less than 5 Shifting Stones. However, another infantry model would do just as well. A Wilder is as good (or better) fury management, being able to move faster and remove more fury from a single warbeast. We have means of stacking movement buffs that can exceed a Teleporting warbeast's threat range.

Really, all in all I think Circle in particular is good about -not- having anything that's a crutch. There are a few things that approach it - the Shifting Stones especially for pure utility - but there's nothing that exists in Circle to the point of 'if you don't have this, you suck at playing Circle'.

[brokennecron]

Totally agree with Ruan and Skillt the stalker is too easy to kill and doesn't have a high enough MAT to be a crutch. Reasons for other, previously mentioned, models have already been explained already.

[Phatheadaf]

@OP...

I really don't think we have any. Maybe i'm crazy, but stones don't auto make my lists, not all lists have Stalkers, ditto for Druids. Mega is good, but I can live w/ a Warden in most cases, or a GG in others. I disagree w/ skillt on his definition of a "crutch". To me it's the things that other factions take almost w/o regard to the caster or warlock they are playing. To my mind Choir and Beast Handlers are the first to mind. Close second are Squire and Jr. Things that supplement every list to me are "crutches". I think it's a player by player thing. For me, the closest thing is the Gorax. I really don't like to play w/o him, as the on demand Primal is just a big part of how I play. So to me that is a crutch. However, I weed him out at lower point levels (<50), and have started to test it out in list combos at 50 as well. The only other thing that I usually give consideration to in a lot of my lists is Druids. While I will leave them home in about half the lists I play, I do consider them almost all the time, whether I take them or not. So, not the definition of a crutch IMHO. So to me, a crutch is a personal reference point. To a guy in my META he refers to the use of all Merc solos in any non Merc list as a crutch. So to me it's the definition that defines what it is...

However, I do understand what Will is saying about "needing" a particular piece or unit to make a particular list work. So since the 'crutch' or 'no-crutch' thing is something that the national Meta came up with, then I guess those players can define it as they wish.

A.

[casang]

I think if you ask this question in a few month you would see alot of GG in the answers. I have been using them for past few weeks and for 1point the scope they open up or trick your opponent into dealing with them hence masking your real plan as for crutch tho i dont know maybe for our casting breed of lock..

Carl..

[Mattho2k3]

I consider Shifting Stones as a faction defining unit the same way that Choir are to Menoth and Paingivers are to Skorne. The factions are built around having them in the majority of lists and models base stats can even be effected by their presence in the faction.

[Ruan]

I can't say that I agree. While yes, Shifting Stones are a great unit, they by no means have the game-changing ability that Menoth Choir or Paingivers have.

Compare here:

Choir can give the equivalent to Primal to a warjack (sans frenzy), ward them from non-magic ranged attacks, or protect them from spells. Menoth jacks are very much balanced around having Choir on the field, thus they become a crutch.

Paingiver Beast Handlers work as fantastic fury management both by Condition and allowing something to charge ect. for free (with a strength buff, no less). Skorne beasts are less so balanced toward having Beast Handlers compared to Menoth Choir, but they're so very handy at fury management and making your beasts stronger that most Skorne players playing with a decent amount of beasts is going to take them.

Shifting Stones extend the range a model can move and provide a means of possible assassination. Sure, this is great - probably the most useful aspect of them! But most opponents are going to kill off a stone as soon as possible to prevent this, even with the UA providing stealth. They provide a Healing Field that personally I find highly situational, as usually they're either out of position or my warbeast dies in one turn (the more common instance). They can shift themselves to block charge lanes. They provide a decent amount of fury management, but it's nowhere near the same category as Beast Handlers due to the fact that that Beast Handlers have more flexible movement as well as being able to choose individual per grunt actions.

I would argue that Circle is not balanced around Shifting Stones - at least, not to the same point that Menoth jacks are around Choir, for example. Menoth jacks operating without Choir are operable, but... lacking. Circle warbeasts operating without Shifting Stones... are perfectly fine. It took me some time playing without Shifting Stones to come to this conclusion, but you don't -need- Shifting Stones to win as Circle. Not the same way that Menoth jacks need Choir, or Skorne playing with anywhere near a decent amount of warbeasts need Beast Handlers.

What makes the Shifting Stones so very attractive is the fact that they're cheap and versatile. They're so very handy and cheap that it is hard to justify not taking them. That's the reason why they make lists. I know they're one of the first things I end up putting into most lists, unless points are exceedingly tight. However, not having Shifting Stones in a Circle list is not the 'You Lose' it is if a Menoth player doesn't take Choir or a Skorne player doesn't take Beast Handlers.

...

Heck, here: I have a challenge to other Circle players. Try playing a few games without Shifting Stones. If nothing less, you learn if anything more respect for them by them -not- being there, because now that they're not there, you'll be looking at all the ways that you could've possibly used them if you had them - ironically, playing without Shifting Stones can be good practice for learning how to use them for precisely that reason. You may also find (as I did) that, at least in certain lists, Shifting Stones just aren't as absolutely necessary as people think.

[stupidmonkey]

When I hear crutch, I think about what models you always take, for around the same points as a model that you don't take. You may think- why take a feral when I can take a stalker, or why take a Satyr when I can take a... I don't know, a stalker? (I like the stalker )
Not counting stones (as many have stated), for me I would say... Gallows Groves, Stalker, Megalith, and Kromac (I am including casters in this as well) . I find myself thinking, why take a war wolf for 1 point. GG is better in most lists. Why take a Wold when Megalith is only a little more? and so on.

I understand that every thing has it's own battle field role, but when you get down to it, some models make the cut in WAY more list than their counterparts (looking at you ATGM/Avatar/Stalker). These are our crutches and perhaps we can all learn a little by getting away from them for a few games.

[VOLK]

Choir can give the equivalent to Primal to a warjack (sans frenzy), ward them from non-magic ranged attacks, or protect them from spells. Menoth jacks are very much balanced around having Choir on the field, thus they become a crutch.

This doesn't make a lick of sense. If the army is balanced around the unit being there and it's an integral part of the army, then that unit cannot be a crutch. It's part of the design.

Stones are a large part of our fury management, provide additional healing to make up for our relatively squishy stats, and are at the core of some of our trademark movement shenanigans. They are an integral part of the faction, and I must disagree with the sentiment put forth a few posts ago... if you don't use shifting stones, you ARE a stupid Circle player.

[stupidmonkey]

Stupid is a strong word IMO. I see people every day in the forums that have not gotten the hang of the stones. When I first picked up a circle army (I was used to Menoth) I struggled with the stones. It was the placement. They were never in a position to do what I wanted them to do. After forcing myself to play with them and studying online, "oOoOo" I was able to get the hang of them. Just looking out for the new guys.

[Ruan]

I think we just have a different idea as what is a crutch, Volk.

And yes, stupidmonkey, I'd say that Shifting Stones certainly take some practice to get used to.

I'd say that I am pretty good with placement with my stones most of the time, getting them where I want them to be for what I want them to being done (I'm especially good at using them with eKaya in particular, for some reason), but even then there's only so much that they can do. My personal opinion is that some people on these forums overstate how necessary the Shifting Stones are for a Circle list. I have found, at least with my play style, that I do not need the Shifting Stones in certain lists. They do not add enough to the list to make it worth taking them. Granted, those lists are few, but I cannot say Shifting Stones are necessary to the same point that Choir for Menoth are necessary - define that as 'essential' or 'crutch' all that you want.

Put it this way:

One of the complaints that I have heard from Menoth players is that they feel like they have to take Choir in order to have good jacks. I cannot say I have ever said 'oh no, I have to take Shifting Stones in this list or else I lose!'

Do they add versatility and utility to a list? Certainly. But they are not 'essential', or a 'crutch'. That's just my personal opinion, and folks on these boards can agree or disagree with it as they will.

I've said enough on this topic, I think - at this point I'm just going to start repeating myself if I continue further.

[Mattho2k3]

Shifting Stones are a faction defining unit just like the Choir are. They just aren't as essential as the Choir.

[Kyuss]

Not sure if anyone agrees to me, but I always make my Circle lists 'top down', while my Troll lists are 'bottom up'.

For example, I know I am going to take 3/4 of the following Troll units when list creating, whatever the caster. Fennblades, Pygmies, Krielstone Bearer, Tuffalos. I know I'm going to take 2/3 of Fell Caller, Stone Scribe Chronicler and Troll Moses. Hence, my lists vary only a little bit, but still function perfectly well in my semi-competative meta. This could be because I pretty much use Skill'drak, Cally, and Grim exclusively but..... Most Troll players I've met think along similar lines.

Circle however have a wide selection of 'good', but not 'great' units. Its how they fit into their 'Casters abilities and spells which make them 'awesome' choices. Kromac fixing the Stalker's lack of MAT. eKaya giving the 'Horns surivability and strength boost so their control comes to the fore. Druids with UA's immunity to electrical damage with pKruger. I don't think everyone is going to agree with those exact examples, but I hope you get my general point.

In short, we don't really have crutch pieces, but we do have crutch combo's. Wether that is strictly within the definition of Crutches I'm not sure but....

[PG_relasine]

Stones for me as well.

[fee_nix]

Ok I appear to have opened a can of worms here, I must say Im now more tempted to try out shifting stones in army lists.

The reason I never used them was I started with pKaya and went for 'beasts over constructs, and I didnt fancy spending money on three small metal models that were essentially magic stones....during a boring month I ended up raiding the garden and gluing some stones too bases and getting a spare card off my friend. I then ended up in a 15point tourny and decided the 2points where better spent elsewhere.

But I digress.

My definition of crutch was I think similar to someone elses, its a unit/model that players tend to rely on. I tend to face Bane lord Tartarus and co in every list my opponent brings to the table. But it works for him so he doesnt change the formula.

If I had to state my "crutch" for Circle it would be Grayle or the Gnarlhorn both tend to show up in most of my recent lists as I do well out of them and they've been known to win me games but I rarely here them mentioned elsewhere so I guess thats a personal crutch.

Thanks to all for posting its been real interesting reading.

[PG_Draxos]

Stones for me as well.

I think Moraig for you. I see him in almost all of your lists.

[blackbeardfreelance]

I guess I need to get some more tournament play in or something. I just don't see the faction the same way some of you do.
I have 2 units of stones and the obligatory stone keeper, but never use them. I did in mkI when pBaldur was the only circle caster I had, but they see 0 table time now and to be honest, I don't miss them. I don't even own a stalker.
I run Morvahna and Kromac mostly. I'm getting some experience with eKaya and eBaldur now (gotta remember to assemble that Megalith).
I primarily run Watchers/Wardens/Wyrds, or one each of the Satyrs for my living beasts with Kromac and eKaya. The only beast that's almost an auto-include in all of my lists is the Gorax. You can't beat a 4 fury beast for 4 points.
I'm not the best player, but I do win more games than I lose and 90% of those are by assassination. Maybe that says something about my meta, but we've got a lot of sharp guys here that play, so...
If anything, I'd consider Kromac to be my personal crutch, but that could just be my Tharn showing.

[SteamLich]

I guess I need to get some more tournament play in or something. I just don't see the faction the same way some of you do.
I have 2 units of stones and the obligatory stone keeper, but never use them. I did in mkI when pBaldur was the only circle caster I had, but they see 0 table time now and to be honest, I don't miss them. I don't even own a stalker.
I run Morvahna and Kromac mostly. I'm getting some experience with eKaya and eBaldur now (gotta remember to assemble that Megalith).
I primarily run Watchers/Wardens/Wyrds, or one each of the Satyrs for my living beasts with Kromac and eKaya. The only beast that's almost an auto-include in all of my lists is the Gorax. You can't beat a 4 fury beast for 4 points.
I'm not the best player, but I do win more games than I lose and 90% of those are by assassination. Maybe that says something about my meta, but we've got a lot of sharp guys here that play, so...
If anything, I'd consider Kromac to be my personal crutch, but that could just be my Tharn showing.

Not running at least one stalker with Kromac, feels to me like playing with a hand tied behind my back.
From my experience Kromac allows you to force favorable trades (ie Warpath+Stalker+Wild Aggression or Primal or Lightning Strike=A dead heavy for your opponent).

Now imagine the ideal Kromac turn, the aforementioned stalker number 1 activates and kills a heavy.
Next Kromac activates shifts wild aggression to stalker number 2 (here is where kromac can either feat and kill something that over committed or save it).
Stalker number 2 activates kills another heavy.
Sprinkle in a variety of warpath movements for added utility.

Not many opponents can lose 2 heavies and s till be in an overly threatening position.
This is where Kromac excels, the cat and mouse type game.
Especially if your playing a scenario or kill box.

[blackbeardfreelance]

Now imagine the ideal Kromac turn

For me, the ideal turn (and it happens 90% of the time) is:
Replace human form Kromac with Beast form during maintenance.
Activate Gnarlhorn and slam something out of the way.
Activate Shadowhorn, advance, jump, throw something out of the way, or into their caster for the knockdown.
Activate Kromac, advance, jump, spend 7 fury attacking warcaster.
If not dead, pop feat for more fury, apply liberally.

Gorax is there to throw Primal on the Gnarlhorn if he needs the extra mat/strength, or the shadowhorn to give him extra strength for the throw distance, although I usually just have the Shadowhorn force for his own animus to get the extra 2".
I can't say enough good things about the Shadowhorn and his move/jump/powerattack ability. And he's 7 points!