Killing Jacks. Anyone else struggling?

[mercury]

I'm having real troubles dealing with Warjacks, especially Khador ones. I know this has always been something of an issue for this faction, but MKI infantrymachine ensured that it was never too big an issue. I've always thought that the reason why the Circle has been a strong Hordes faction at the Gencon tournies was its ability to deal with infantry spam and ensure win by scenario (hello, Krueger and Baldur), but now we are seeing a proliferation of Jacks. Where a Primal'd Warpwolf would suffice to deal with the low number of heavies fielded against us, we are instead seeing 3 or more on the table at a time. I think we need some punch to compensate.

Our 'heavy hitting' infantry options (Ravagers and Gatormen) are quite clearly tooled up to take out living models, as are the Bloodweavers. Though the Ravagers and Gatormen can perform reasonably well against Jacks they are definitely lacking something to give them an edge. The Bloodweavers don't stand a chance. The Nyss Hunters are again OK-ish, but their low P+S isn't gonna do much more than tickle a Khador heavy, even with Weapon Master. I have not yet tried the Wolves of Orboros but I can see that they aren't going to be setting the world alight.

For the record I am currently using Krueger, but would like to playtest all of the Locks at some point.

I have got to thinking that maybe if PP does not want to give us brute strength, maybe they should provide other anti-jack options. What if Krueger and Druids had lightning options which caused Disruption for example? e.g. as much as I love Electro-Leap, I can already hose infantry. If Lightning Tendrils granted Reach and Disruption then I would be a happier bunny!

Anyone else feel like this?

[Cantor]

At first glance, it seems that adding Gang to the Ravagers and Wolves was a pretty good indicator that we're supposed to use them to gang up on warjacks. Also, the Wolves have Reach and Ranked Attack making them even more potent at this job. I haven't playtested this (yet) but on paper, I think we should be doing okay.

[Bone(idle)jack]

you could try:

(35pts)
Kromac (+4)
Satyr 8
Satyr 8
Satyr 8
Satyr 8
Argus 4
Whitemane 3

Kromac sits in beast forms and spams Animi, satrys slam everything out of the way clearing a path for kromac to eat the caster. Whitemane is there to deal with some infantry as needed.

[Talking Head]

In MK I, when I played a list with a lot of heavies, I found the solution that worked (after a lot of failing to kill jacks with our low POW attacks), was to use power attacks like throws and slams to control them instead of trying to kill them.

In MK II, with KD being shakeable, Circle got nerfed HARD as a thrown or slammed warjack will just stand up and charge them, and Circle falls over dead once they start getting hit.

Heavy warjacks were hard to kill in MK I for Circle, and warjacks are even harder to kill in MK II by a huge margin and Circle's hard hitters like the Gorax, the Warpwolf and even the Warwolves got their ability to hit hard dialed back.

I've got no idea how PP is expecting Circle to deal with something like a Cent under arcane shield (god help you if you don't have a Woldwyrd in your list too).

[fildrigar]

It is true that we've lost our best ways of dealing with 'jacks, with knockdown not being as much of a handicap as it once was. Perhaps focus starvation by knocking down all hia jacks? Hmmm, I suppose we're going to have to focus on assassination now more than ever.

If you can get 8 or 10 wolves in on a charge, ( with the ua ) you're looking at POW 19 to 21 with three dice, enough to severly tickle a jack.

I had been looking forward to using better Argii to complement the knockdown, but with the warbeast only restriction on doppler bark, that's out the window.

I guess we're back to Von Clauswitz application of force. Focus as much as you can on one jack at a time, perhaps with slams to the others to slow them down.

I'm really going to have to focus on anti jack operations during the test, 'cause it seems like that's going to be where we struggle now more than ever.

I do wish we had some access to disruption, that would fit our style quite well.

[Rosicrucian]

Thinking about this issue one idea that comes to mind is finding a way to get the ability Erosion (As seen on Mohsar) in the army somehow. This would help address the specific issue of opponents with many naturally high arm warjacks without adding any damage output for areas that we have fewer problems in. Keeping with the the mk2 philosophy that it should take heavies to deal with heavies I think the best place to do this would be an animus to assist constructs, perhaps replacing the Woldwatcher's animus. A mirror for the Gorax if you will.

Make the watcher something like 5 points with an animus something like: "Target friendly Faction Construct warbeast gains Erosion. A model with Erosion rolls an additional die on its melee damage rolls against non-living models. ANIMUSNAME lasts for one round."

This would open up Wolds as an option for dealing with Warjacks too without adding anything else to stack onto the Feral Warpwolf. This is pure theorymachine however. I have yet to try out Circle against a Karchev style list.

[Rosicrucian]

I do wish we had some access to disruption, that would fit our style quite well.

Agreed. Circle seems like the most natural place in hordes for it to appear and it would allow the reemergence of the power attack methodology of dealing with warjacks.

[wvieira422]

I have always had a problem with killing jacks. I run an all construct army with either baldur or krueger as my caster. Jacks have been the worst against my force and all i could really do against them was Throw them or slam them. With "shake off" this may not work as well anymore. However it forces your opponent to use one focus on that jack just for the pupose of standing up which lowers available focus for spells and camping for ARM. You knock several jacks down in a turn only one or two might be standing up, depending on available focus. i also find using rough terrain to my advantage throwing models into a forest will keep it out of the battle for a turn or two, however many factions have ways to assist getting their jacks out. finaly throwing their jacks back towards your other units can get you the charge off with several models and units allowing for a lot of free hits causing a boat load of damage. however if you fail to destroy the jack it's now sitting behind your lines. Another possibility is to throw the enemy jacks outside of the enemy control area therefor they cannot allocate focus to it for it to stand up. throwing/slamming a heavy into a light can cause both to be knocked down forcing the enemy to chose which one he wants to stand up.

In the end we are just going to need to force the enemy where we want them to go and try for the assasin run. Going toe to toe with jacks is very bad for warbeasts in most areas. Lets try some tactics and see what works best.

Also remember that these are two separate Games. Hordes is meant to be played against hordes and Warmachine against Warmachine. it just works out that both game systems can be played together.

[DeeCius DeadCloud]

Just like any faction, weaponmaster infantry are a threat to any heavy - even Khador ones - even with mark 2 changes I still fear Bane Thralls melee'ing Beast 09. We have a unit that although not weaponmasters are sort of close due to an attack option, and that would be Bloodweavers (not to mention one of them could remove any armour boosting upkeeps), Ravagers also hit pretty hard.

Loading up a warbeast with a decent array of strength and damage boosts should also work rather well, against all but the most durable Khador/Menite heavy. Simply make sure you're able to line up a decent damage output threat on those heavies, Circle have them just like any other faction, they're just a bit more thin on the ground.

[fildrigar]

Unfortunatly, all of the Bloodweavers abilities except stopping upkeep spells require living targets. And other than Morraig, all our weaponmasters are POW 9. Yes, they can get slightly higher, but outside of very lucky rolls Bloodtrackers aren't taking down a heavy with their javelins. ( I have seen it happen in mk1, but with jacks sticking around longer, it seems far less likely in mk2 )

Our best bet remains focused attention, but that will be tougher than ever to pull off. A FWW with primal is POW 19 warped for STR? ( let's leave caster buffs out for now ) Against an Ironclad, that's straight dice, ( assuming a charge ) 3d6 + 3*2d6 + 2 @ dice - one, so 42 points of damage. Unfortunatly, the FWW is pretty much the only beast we can regularly count on getting that high.

As this is the field test, more testing will be required. It might be good to focus on testing vs warjacks.

[DudeOfOrboros]

Hordes has to be competitive against Warmachine.
Don't forget they took away the Manikins' Root too.
I like the idea of Erosion and Disruption.
Too many of our effects are living models only.
Our only hope is board control and focusing on taking out heavies one at a time but your opponent will likely not cooperate. We cannot win a warjack attrition game.
We need something.

[Corpazious]

Thinking about this issue one idea that comes to mind is finding a way to get the ability Erosion (As seen on Mohsar) in the army somehow. This would help address the specific issue of opponents with many naturally high arm warjacks without adding any damage output for areas that we have fewer problems in. Keeping with the the mk2 philosophy that it should take heavies to deal with heavies I think the best place to do this would be an animus to assist constructs, perhaps replacing the Woldwatcher's animus. A mirror for the Gorax if you will.

Make the watcher something like 5 points with an animus something like: "Target friendly Faction Construct warbeast gains Erosion. A model with Erosion rolls an additional die on its melee damage rolls against non-living models. ANIMUSNAME lasts for one round."

This would open up Wolds as an option for dealing with Warjacks too without adding anything else to stack onto the Feral Warpwolf. This is pure theorymachine however. I have yet to try out Circle against a Karchev style list.

Yes!!! TOTALLY!!!
Erosion would be a "thing" that Circle does, it's flavorful and useful, and makes sense. Good call.
Let's see how many Circle players (and other Factions) agree, and maybe we can get Privateer to consider it through the Official Feedback Forms when they open on Monday, Nov 30.

[ChainGun]

I've got no idea how PP is expecting Circle to deal with something like a Cent under arcane shield (god help you if you don't have a Woldwyrd in your list too).

Centurion with Arcane Shield is as likely to be in the same list as a Feral Warpwolf with a Woldwyrd.

Warpwolf warps to Warp Strength so it is now P+S 17 on the claws, P+S 16 on the bite. With 4 Fury you're looking at 7 boosted damage rolls. With MAT 7 Vs DEF 11 I assume all attacks hit.

6 Claw attacks at 27.5 damage Vs ARM 24 will give you an average of 21 total damage inflicted on the Centurion. Bite will pop it to (average) 23. The Centurion got a total of 24 damage boxes.

However, let's look at a Feral Warpwolf attacking a Juggetnaut (usually there's no upkeep spells on Khadoran warjacks). 6 Claw attacks at average 24 Vs ARM 20 are 24 damage. After we add charge bonus (3.5) and the bite (3 more) the Juggernaut is now messed up (4/34 damage boxes) but very much alive.

As a (Khadoran) outsider, my feeling is that the circle could use a little more help in cracking up heavies, but the situation is not as grim as some of the messages in this thread indicate.

[MCPeePants]

I really quite like the Erosion idea. That said, it would make Woldwardens, and Megalith especially, do obnoxiously huge damage to a warjack. Under Baldur, you're looking at a free charge, then 4 additional attacks. With MAT6 and weight of stone, Megalith would have no problem hitting with all 6. That's and average of 16+14=30 damage from the charge attack, and 16+10.5 from each subsequent. In total that's an average of 42.5 damage to an ARM20 model, costing only the theoretical erosion animus for support. And that's without even factoring in Stone Skin.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea, but it would make the constructs hit harder than the Warpwolf against jacks, which is probably not something PP wants. Maybe some kind of downside to it? Can't charge, maybe?

As for the bloodtrackers, they're doing an average of 21.5 damage to their prey with javelins. Throw on stone skin (yeah, I play Baldur a lot), and suddenly they're each hitting a Khador heavy for 3.5. That means even a min unit is doing significant damage to that jack. And they're really quite cheap.

Really though, the way I'd like to see Circle deal with high ARM is with ARM debuffs. If we could drop that ARM down so much as two points, all of our threat vectors are suddenly way more viable. I'd vote to have it on an animus so it's available to every caster. Maybe a ranged attack that inflicts an ARM penalty? A buff that makes melee attacks reduce ARM? I like the idea of that combined arms approach.

[Dantes]

I think if you want to give Erosion put it on the new Warpwolf Warriors weapon. He could be a desert warpwolf that hangs out with mohsar if you need fluffy reasons.

I don't think any of our existing models need to be modified to get it. If warmachine is any indicator we should be seeing a new unit, warlock, heavy and light in August. Long time to go without but I would like to think that they are coming.

[UnderWood]

With our hit boxes being reduced on all our beasts and the low ARM we have on most of our beasts any warjack with its weapon functional and a cortex will kill them handily.

Even in MKI I had opponents give a jack 3 focus charge a STR warped warpwolf then announce they wasted focus when they killed it without spending 3 focus. Warpwolves has less hitboxes now.

In the last game I played I hit a behemonth with 4 PS18 attacks and 5 PS 17 attacks it was left with its cortex and one hand with that one hand a 3 focus it killed a gnarlhorn and half killed my pureblood in one hit.

From now on I'm going to have to take a gorax in almost every list as its the only way we are going to be able to take out a heavy and even then against some heavys that isn't going to be enough.

A warjack can give a beatdown and take a beatdown we can give a beatdown but we CANNOT take one.

[Sevwall]

I'm afraid to say that I think the solution is to bypass the jacks. Thats probably what Soles would say if he came in here.

That said, a Warpwolf isn't a bad start, especially with a STR buff. The warpwolf has a prayer, due to his high DEF, or surviving the retaliation.

[Bone(idle)jack]

I'm afraid to say that I think the solution is to bypass the jacks. Thats probably what Soles would say if he came in here.

Satyr are good for that, dont forget you dont have to follow up after your slam, a gnarlhorn slamming a jack D6+2 (D6+4 with virility) is going to put jacks quite a way out of position even if they do shake off the knockdown. Plus a counter slamming model right in the middle of his force will mean he has to think about activation orders carefully.

[Norton]

I do think that weapon/headlocks are going to be more our game style. The Feral on its own becomes a str13 model, 1 point lead means that on a roll of 5-6 auto hold on a str12 model.

[Mutton]

In a land of easy shakeoff and no disruption from Circle, bypassing 'jacks is really hard. The problem becomes even worse when you face 'casters capable of running 3 cheap heavies that can laugh at anything but a fully loaded up Feral missile. The Kaya yo-yo works, but even then if you are hitting pow19 with pKaya you have a frenzying Feral next turn. Overall, we just need a solid beatstick infantry unit; Ravagers are good but you pay out the rear for them and there's only 7 in a full unit. If we could get Parasite (a VERY fluffy spell for us) or some sort of damage buff outside of Primal we would have gone a long way toward fixing this issue. Right now you have FE on eKaya, and that's it. Give the Slag Troll a new animus and let us have it's current one; we just need to be able to hurt something.

[LEJKaya]

We should get erosion as a theme. I also think we should get some disruption on krueger or maybe the druids.

Disruption would help with our old tactic of controlling heavies where we cannot destroy them with power attacks or spells.

[Scyldemort]

I have had no trouble taking down light warjacks with Bloodweavers. Heavies have proven more of an issue, however.

[Rosicrucian]

I really quite like the Erosion idea. That said, it would make Woldwardens, and Megalith especially, do obnoxiously huge damage to a warjack. Under Baldur, you're looking at a free charge, then 4 additional attacks. With MAT6 and weight of stone, Megalith would have no problem hitting with all 6. That's and average of 16+14=30 damage from the charge attack, and 16+10.5 from each subsequent. In total that's an average of 42.5 damage to an ARM20 model, costing only the theoretical erosion animus for support. And that's without even factoring in Stone Skin.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea, but it would make the constructs hit harder than the Warpwolf against jacks, which is probably not something PP wants. Maybe some kind of downside to it? Can't charge, maybe?

True, I wasn't really factoring in Baldur. Without him you get the initial attack and three others which would do 36 via Megalith in our back of the napkin calculation or 31 from the Warden. In comparison a Warpwolf warping strength and with Gorax support is doing 44.5. If you were to include eKaya for a similar comparison in terms of buffs, Alpha can easily up that to 50.5 with a free charge and forced evolution pushes it to a rather silly 62.5. Warpwolves eat things good. Currently an unbuffed Woldwarden does about 18.5 damage to a Juggernaut, who turns around and does 12 + 8x(Focus Spent). (Disclaimer: all damage calculations are very rough)

If Erosion shows up somehow there probably would need to be some other balance or maybe a different implementation, but I don't think it's completely crazy. If nothing else this reminds me how brutal warpwolves are offensively. I just wish a more construct heavy army had some options. And I didn't need to reserve 13 or more points for a FWW(s) and Gorax in every army I make.

Alternatively I wouldn't mind getting some disruption so that avoidance actually works. It would be reasonably fluffy for druids.

[NecroticDischarge]

Even in MKI I had opponents give a jack 3 focus charge a STR warped warpwolf then announce they wasted focus when they killed it without spending 3 focus. Warpwolves has less hitboxes now.

Oh so that's how you make Kromacs feat work against war machine
seriously though I have played a few FT games and average rolls are not often average. I say a PS 17/19 warpy wrecks just about anything. And as Sev said bypassing with speed is the key. our heavies just soooooo much faster than the other heavies in the game if not the fastest out of all of them. Make a hole And blast a warpy through it. Stop beating your head on the same old rock.

[fildrigar]

I have had no trouble taking down light warjacks with Bloodweavers. Heavies have proven more of an issue, however.

With POW 11s? Any buff besides Gang? Or just really lucky dice?

[Menoth's Gambit]

Killing Jacks was hard in MKI. However, in MKI, all we had to do was use throws/slams and terrain to by time for our wussy army. Now, those tools are not available, and we still are wussy. Cool looking, fast and all that, but we can't take a beating.

I think caster killin is the only way to play now.

I keep looking at the tools and thats what I see.

We have stackable spd buffs, ghostly, hunter and such things. Using those tools seems to be the direction MKII has for Circle.

[Dark Fledgling]

It's been said, Warpy +Gorax is probably our best bet. Against something with upkeeps, throw in Arcane Killer you sitting at MAT 9 P+S 19/18 and rolling 3d6 to hit and damage. That will kill anything you will ever need to attack. Granted, it took you 18 points points of beasts to take out one un-supported heavy, but if you really need that Jack gone, thats your answer.

Another Idea would be to use Morraig and some wolves. Charge and use wolf pack to throw out a nice POW 20ish (22 max, give or take loosing a few) with 3d6 and then follow it up with morraigs charge dishing out a POW 13 + 5d6 will help you take our a sizeable chunk. This is only 13 points worth of stuff you've dedicated and unlike your warpwolf, you wont cry and watch your battle plan fall apart around you if your wolves die.

-DF

[Talking Head]

One of the major problems with the "use a Warp Wolf with a bunch of buffs" arguments is that they are going to kill your warp wolf VERY dead in exchange for you killing a Warjack that likely cost 2-3 fewer points. While models shouldn't be judged strictly on their ability to "earn their points back", it is also a fact that you will get rope-a-doped if you keep attacking your way into lopsided exchanges.

I know how unreliable circle was in MK I at taking down a heavy warjack. I know how much greater of a storm my MK II warjacks can weather. I know how badly I needed KDs to stay alive against multiple heavy warjacks in MK I. Logically, it doesn't add up.

[PUFNSTUF]

We don't have any armor piercing in the army either do we? What I'd give for a pow 12/13 ap attack on a beast...

[NecroticDischarge]

Have any of you ladies/gentlemen player against mortenebra and a helljack just comes out of no where and wrecks your caster/lock? In my feild test games I feel we have that type of assassination potential in justs our beast selection alone. This is before you bolt your warlock onto your list.

Stop worrying about heavy armor/jacks we can mostly ignore them with better speed/manuverabliy. Make your assassin run the same turn you do your power attacks. Our satyrs make giant gaping holes in enemy defense lines. Capitalize on this by flinging something else into those gaps our awesome power attacks generate. there is a reason we have so many fantastic heavies to choose from.

[tonychaotic]

It's been said, Warpy +Gorax is probably our best bet. Against something with upkeeps, throw in Arcane Killer you sitting at MAT 9 P+S 19/18 and rolling 3d6 to hit and damage.

you can't have more than one animus on a model at a time, right?

[Talking Head]

Have any of you ladies/gentlemen player against mortenebra and a helljack just comes out of no where and wrecks your caster/lock? In my feild test games I feel we have that type of assassination potential in justs our beast selection alone. This is before you bolt your warlock onto your list.

Stop worrying about heavy armor/jacks we can mostly ignore them with better speed/manuverabliy. Make your assassin run the same turn you do your power attacks. Our satyrs make giant gaping holes in enemy defense lines. Capitalize on this by flinging something else into those gaps our awesome power attacks generate. there is a reason we have so many fantastic heavies to choose from.

I've been playing Cryx for years and more or less own the entire faction. I've got a pretty good idea what Mort is capable of, and its a LOT more than mere assassination. Her helljacks also don't come out of nowhere, they come from where they were and they only get to you if your warcaster is obliviously sitting in the outfield picking dandylions instead of paying attention to the game.

Playing a purely assassination based game is exceptionally ineffective. It is ineffective because their warlock/warcaster can simply not stand where they are under any threat of assassination.

Unless you have a 'plan B' that does not involve assassination to force a warcaster/warlock to commit enough to endanger themselves to stop it, you'll never get a chance to assassinate, or at least you shouldn't. Relying on unforced errors shouldn't count as a plan.

[PUFNSTUF]

Have any of you ladies/gentlemen player against mortenebra and a helljack just comes out of no where and wrecks your caster/lock? In my feild test games I feel we have that type of assassination potential in justs our beast selection alone. This is before you bolt your warlock onto your list.

Stop worrying about heavy armor/jacks we can mostly ignore them with better speed/manuverabliy. Make your assassin run the same turn you do your power attacks. Our satyrs make giant gaping holes in enemy defense lines. Capitalize on this by flinging something else into those gaps our awesome power attacks generate. there is a reason we have so many fantastic heavies to choose from.

perhaps because us players would like to have lists and play games where we can do something OTHER than just try for an assassination run... or for those good players who do not allow for assassination runs, we need other stategies, which usually involves taking out heavies / high armor things.

[DemonCalibre]

Avoiding High arm isn't always possible.

Why? Most games end with Warcaster death, if your opponent knows how to play and knows about circles terrible hitting power, he is going to shield his caster with his high armor models, to set up situations where to get to the caster you must punch through the high armored models.

I mean think about it, If Supreme Kommandant Irusk is sitting behind a Pyramid of Shock Troopers, and your opponent is savvy enough to use the table edges to keep you from doing an end around(anchor one side of the Shock Trooper formation with a table edge). Your going to have to get through those arm 21 8 pip Shocks to win.

So far in the field test I have been having serious problem with Troll Kin Champions, nothing in the faction is long ranged enough to seriously wear them down at range(most of our shooting is RNG 10, which is a half in window to shoot at them without retalation, unless they are smart and have an Axer for rush), and only our Warbeasts can consistantly break them in hand to hand, except without reach, our warbeast can't kill them all and can't take the hits.

In the first game against champs, They bulldozed 4+ of my Ravagers, and I only ever managed to kill one, and Only because he was trying to make things happen with Calandra, rather then playing it safe did I ever really have a chance to win(if he had backed Calandra off behind the shield of the champs, I wouldn't have had a chance)

Second game, Champs barrelled strait at my lines, at the end of the game, finally killed them off, but not before they killed a Wayfayer, 4ish Wold stalkers, and my Gnarlhorn.

Again this was another situation, where if my opponent had bunkered behind the champs I would have been in serious trouble, I got the win in the second game, because he moved his caster slightly to the side of the champs(He was trying to shore up the flank I was breaking apart with my Ravagers), and I was able to Revive a couple of ravagers into his caster, but quite frankly the champs nearly turned it around because of my inability to put them down.(Though my Gorax earned a gold start by wiping the unit out after it had nearly broken my armies back)

[Rosicrucian]

I agree with Talking Head and PUFNSTUF. That is exactly my concern, I do not want Circle to be pigeonholed into being a pure assassination faction.

[Bone(idle)jack]

Avoiding High arm isn't always possible.

Quite true.

I fully expect to be facing the following regularly:

Kreoss / Harbinger / Reznik
Avatar
Reckoner
Full Exemplar Errant
Full Exemplar Bastions
Choir
Hierophant

Generaly walking forward in "brick formation" (caster at the back, jacks in front, units forming a crescent in front of that)

Cutting through all that high armour is going to be nigh impossible, outmanouvering is also unlikley, due to the compactness of the "brick". It's all capable of tearing beasts apart and generally charging the fron rank of infantry will lead to a counter charge by the jacks.

The best bet seems to be to break it apart with slams to get to the caster, have to be careful where the avatar ends up thouh due to gaze of menoth.

[Bakemono]

So far, at least, all my wins against Warmachine have been assassinations. That was pretty much the only option. I build "all comers" lists and as a result I'm not particularly well-prepared for these lists of nothing but all high ARM Warjacks. The pricing Privateer has done is way off. We do not have any Heavy Warbeasts going for (6). My most recent game was against Magnus the Traitor who fieled nothing but Warjacks against me. It was abundantly clear that I could fight him on anywhere near equal ground and assassination was my single hope of victory.

It was (35) point game and I was playing P-Kaya. Granted, if I had put nothing into the field but:

3x Feral Warpwolf
1x Pureblood
1x Gorax

I could probably of have mixed it up with him a little more on equal terms. Even so he would still have had more Warjacks out than me. As it happened I was facing him with:

1x Feral Warpwolf
1x Pureblood
1x Gorax
1x Woldwyrd
1x Druids of Orboros w/Overseer
1x Shifting Stones

[DeeCius DeadCloud]

Quite true.

I fully expect to be facing the following regularly:

Kreoss / Harbinger / Reznik
Avatar
Reckoner
Full Exemplar Errant
Full Exemplar Bastions
Choir
Hierophant

I'd actually worry about some Khador jack heavy lists a lot more, especially with eButcher or Karchev behind them, theres a lot of things there, able to reliably hit a Warpwolf or Ravagers and take out the only ways a Circle player could mitigate a list full of huge armour values. Assassination versus those warcasters is pretty damn difficult compared to most Menite warcasters when you consider Karchev and eButcher's armour and damage boxes.

Lets also face it, a high armour list facing a list with few ways to handle high armour will probably look to remove your ways to hurt their stuff first. If I was playing Karchev, I'd look to destroy Warpwolves first, even using Tow and feat to ensure that any high damage output is eliminated ASAP, and using a warp to eliminate one 'jack in a Karchev list won't make much difference when he's probably got about 3-4 'jacks, each of which is likely cheaper than a Warp in the first place.

[whatyoutalkinboutwillis]

Yes!!! TOTALLY!!!
Erosion would be a "thing" that Circle does, it's flavorful and useful, and makes sense. Good call.
Let's see how many Circle players (and other Factions) agree, and maybe we can get Privateer to consider it through the Official Feedback Forms when they open on Monday, Nov 30.

Thats a thing trolls do already with the slag.

[Rosicrucian]

Thats a thing trolls do already with the slag.

I'm generous, I'll share with them.