Bonehammer- thoughts?

[foundfacedown]

I'm seriously considering picking up a unit of Champs and Bonehammer seems like a nice addition to that force. I just have a few concerns:

1. Are Champs worth the points? Obviously this largely depends on the list I'm putting them in, but I usually play 35pt. games and I'm concerned that the Champs are a little point-heavy to be worth it...especially with Bonehammer or a Hero.

2. Does Bonehammer matter that much, in-game? Having never played with Champs or this particular solo, I'm skeptical that he'll actually make a difference. His abilities seem really solid, but I was hoping you guys might be able to shed some objective light on how he actually plays.

Thanks in advance for you help!

[GermanJoe]

Of course, Champs don't "fit" in any list. But if you field them, you have a rock-solid 2nd line unit. I enjoyed playing them with Borka.

And if I field Champs, I always have Skaldi with them. Pathfinder, Countercharge and reach is worth the points in my opinion.

[Impostor]

Just recently i got myself a unit of Champions together with both Bonehammer and a Hero. Just to give them a test, I tried the extreme, and played them without any dedicated support in a 35 points list. First they wrecked a Myrmidon without even charging, then moved on and <almost> tied up enemy caster in combat after massacring her escorts. (the millimeters weren't on my side that day)
With support (Doomshaper can put Rage on almost all the unit, for example) they are the biggest fear of the enemy, being capable to kill Hordes' heaviest armor with ease and even threaten Khador jacks.
I am afraid of what they could do if i actually bothered to fully support them, making a Champions centered list. I just have to wait for few models to be delivered to me and i will definitely try it out.

To sum up, in every game i played with them, they killed at least their worth in points, and had an irreplaceable threat value.

PS Just to state the obvious - you do not put them as your alpha strike force.

[FakeProblems]

If supported right they do amazing. I like them with borka tons, in fact thats when i got to properly abuse them. Taking out two skorne heavies in one turn with full champs was rad. I'm gonna roll them out with pGrissel next as she is my newest caster. Anyways I think they are a solid tough as nails unit that skaldi makes better.

[Lawso42]

I play them every now and then with Grissel1, Madrak1, and Borka. They pull their weight and can do quite a bit of damage. But as has been said, they need a screen (Fennblades) in order to get to the fight.

Lawso

[Sardonic Artery]

I go min. Champs + hero + Skaldi before max champs (and I consider the Hero more important than Skaldi, although it's fun to counter-charge from the back through your own lines -- where both are involved).

[PG_Goldstep]

As a PG, sometimes I am asked to show people a "Basic Troll Brick" at 25 points. When I am doing the Brick, Champs are the basic core of making the army work and Bonehammer became part of that when he was released.

Chief Madrak Ironhide
* Pyre Troll
* Pyre Troll
* Trollkin Runebearer
Krielstone Bearer and 3 Stone Scribes
* Krielstone Stone Scribe Elder
Trollkin Champions (Leader and 4 Grunts)
* Skaldi Bonehammer
Stone Scribe Chronicler

So basically not lighting the world on fire if you'll forgive the pun, but what a person fighting this finds out is that (1) DEF 14/16 ARM 20 is tough to crack, (2) 6 MAT 7/9 P+S 12/14 Weapon Masters with 2 attacks each can crack open a can at will, and (3) even without a charge screen, at 25 points some armies with issues of pillow-fists or low accuracy can't deal.

[EvilFuzzyDoom]

I love him for pathfinder on the charge, mainly. Being able to ignore walls is made of love.

[Grim Wingus]

Skaldi's cool. If it comes down to only having 3 points to spare, though, Champ Hero is just as nifty and gives them stuff you can't get from other sources

[HellecticMojo]

Skaldi's cool. If it comes down to only having 3 points to spare, though, Champ Hero is just as nifty and gives them stuff you can't get from other sources

my thought on the hero vs skaldi now is based around what else I'm taking. if I'm playing a low model count army, I prefer the hero since it allows the champ to more easily react to threats coming from multiple vectors.
I prefer Skaldi when I have more/standard amount of body where I usually need to only worry about one or two threats at most, and having a charge opportunity is easier to come by.

[PG_Goldstep]

Nothing to do with "worth the points" or even feasibility. Just saying, it's neat.

Take Skaldi, cast Blood Fury on him and upkeep it. Then War Cry him. Then Charge of the Trolls him. Then use Stone Strength. Then cast Rage on him. Then get a beast into melee with a meaty target.
Charge that target with Skaldi.
Take the second attack.

He's MAT 12, P+S 17 and rolling 5 dice on the first attack and 4 on the second.
It only took a minimum of 22 points.

On completely average dice, Skaldi can paste a Def 19 Arm 20 target for 25 points of damage.


And we never used a feat. Next turn he can do it again.


Now... a normal champ can do this too at one less MAT. And a caber can do this with one less MAT, 4 more POW for 1 less die, and only one attack.
But the point is just this...


Isn't that cool?

[EvilFuzzyDoom]

Isn't that cool?

It's pretty cool.

But is it as good as a Reckoner?

[kneemus]

I'm seriously considering picking up a unit of Champs and Bonehammer seems like a nice addition to that force. I just have a few concerns:

1. Are Champs worth the points? Obviously this largely depends on the list I'm putting them in, but I usually play 35pt. games and I'm concerned that the Champs are a little point-heavy to be worth it...especially with Bonehammer or a Hero.

2. Does Bonehammer matter that much, in-game? Having never played with Champs or this particular solo, I'm skeptical that he'll actually make a difference. His abilities seem really solid, but I was hoping you guys might be able to shed some objective light on how he actually plays.

Thanks in advance for you help!

1. They are worth it and they are definitely an expensive unit. But keep in mind what they bring, an armor buff, two attacks, good MAT, weapon master, eight wounds and tough. Skaldi and the Hero make them better. You could base a 35pt army around them with layers to make them even better; more survivable, harder hitting, faster etc... But, I've also fielded them without much support and they do pretty well. Keep in mind that they are just a bit slow, but most heavy infantry is. If it feels expensive, go min unit with Skaldi and the Hero...

2. He does matter. He'll gives them pathfinder on the charge and granted Overtake. That's big because they don't have reach and that second attack can go to waste if there is no target for it, because they split the head open of whatever it was they were engaged with... as they are want to do. Countercharge will matter as well because there is a good chance that your Champs will get charged (unless you have a screening unit). Champs do not have a huge threat range. Other units/models do. Put a damage buff on Skaldi, keep him in the back row and he can put some serious damage on that beast, jack or dragoon that just got the charge on the front row. You'll need the Hero to pull that off by the way...

[Wulfenstein]

I personally prefer Skaldi over a Hero any day of the week. The only time I take the Hero is when I run multiple Champ units. Other than that, he is nifty, but I can think of other things I'd rather include. The fact that Skaldi grants Pathfinder to his unit and them already having a high wound / armor / damage output / MAT is ridiculous.

I'd say 9/10 my units more than earn their points back in games.

[bakaryu]

The most important thing about Skaldi is that he protects Champions against the thing mostly likely to come in and wreck them, an enemy heavy.

Remember that Rage lasts for one round, as does the +1 STR from the KSB Stone Strength aura. Without even taking a warlock into account that means you got a MAT8 POW15 weaponmaster waiting to counter charge whatever decides to come in to take down your champions. With eMadrak that means POW15+5d6, I have ripped arms and cortexes and spirits off heavies leaving them right in the middle of a pack of champions with marginal killing power remaining.

EDIT:

Also always always ALWAYS go for min Champs plus Skaldi plus Hero if you are thinking of taking max Champs and one out of two of their extras. Tactician is integral to the counter charge defense strategy and a Hero also does an amazing job of helping to clean out enemy infantry trying to tarpit your champions.

[PG_thegreatblah]

I think for me the biggest thing Skaldi brings to my Champs is overtake. Getting an adjustment move between attacks is downright fantastic for me. Pathfinder charge is also nice.

[PG_jbarket]

I think for me the biggest thing Skaldi brings to my Champs is overtake. Getting an adjustment move between attacks is downright fantastic for me. Pathfinder charge is also nice.

This, a thousand times over.

If you're bringing anything that buffs your Champs, this is a huge thing to keep in mind. I play Champs with eMadrak a lot, and when you're hitting 5D6 on the charge, even against multiwound, decent armor models there are a lot of times when your second attack has nowhere to go. Overtake can mean the difference between one dead enemy model and two.

[PG_Goldstep]

It's pretty cool.

But is it as good as a Reckoner?

Much cooler. The Reckoner isn't drunk.

[PG_frazerpenman]

1. Champions can do wonderful things if given the right support such as the Krielstone, damage buffs, Champion hero and fell caller (more for pathfinder though MAT 9 is nice to have). Do benefit from having a more expendable screen in front of them so can be quite expensive pointwise to field. Personally if i'm not bringing the support pieces to make them shine I will put gatorman posse on the board or Long Riders.

2. Skaldi is a good addition to the champs giving them access to pathfinder which is handy in some theme forces or to let the fell caller stay at home or use a different buff. Overtake is handy to either let you reach several enemy troops in a turn or get back into defensive line after spreading out on the charge. Skaldi himself is a higher MAT champion with reach and countercharge so easily worth the 1 point upgrade over a regular Champion.