Titan Seige-Layer is amazing!

[Darque]

so in preparation for a tourney later this month, I was using the Seige-Layer tonight.

Oh god this thing is amazing!

Same stats as the Cannoneer
Cannon Pow: -1 (to the Cannoneer)
Normal tusks & mace
and Snipe
For 8 points!!!!!

My shooting was finally effective and worth it! I took out Rocinante in one round (flayer cannons and Seige-Layer at work).

God I wish this was the standard model instead of the derpy Cannoneer. Who can I bribe to make this happen??

[jettzypher]

what is this siege layer and where is he from?

[Darque]

it's from the Thundercliff Peaks league. It replaces the standard Cannoneer with a "ZOMG! AWESOME!" (tm) 8 point model. I think you may have to google for the cards as they dont seem to be on the pp website any longer.

As for stats I pretty much gave it all away the not the cost of Snipe (2 fury, single model target).

[Talamare]

I dont even think our Canooneer needs Snipe

Lower his pt by 1 and he will be used a lot

PDF - http://privateerpress.com/files/Thun...ks%20Cards.pdf

They increased the size of the aoe to 4

[Triumph Of Man]

Yeah that siegelayer looks a ****load more useful.

Hell, I'd take the current Cannoneer if her animus wasn't so ****ty. If they'd just give it a cast range rather than self I'd be sold.

[Earthcrosser599]

They can't do that because Skorne has Defender's Ward.

[Triumph Of Man]

They can't do that because Skorne has Defender's Ward.

I find that argument to be false considering I can already do it with an agoniser effectively.

Not to mention if I'm blowing DWard on a beast it's not going a unit that really benefits from it, like Nihilators or Cetrati.

The issue is as it stands the Cannoneer's role is as a support beast, standing mid ranks knocking off annoying solos and supporting the front ranks. But her animus is ****e, counterproductive and doesn't work properly. Even if it was changed so it worked more like a Krea, where she could sit behind say a wall of Cetrati and help them out, the Cannoneer would be loads more useful.

As it stands Diminish functions barely more than a selfish animus. Who wants to pay 9pts for a selfish elephant that still wants another 5 pt beast (raider) and a 2pt solo (extoller) just so she can do her job of sniping thestupidelf***** and Tataresauce? It's not like she does a good job of anti infantry with a 3" blast, and she sucks up close for more points than our other beasts cost. The least she could do is provide some actual support at the same time.

[theHman]

Personally I like the cannoneer, or rather, I really, really want to like and use the cannoneer a lot.
I even try to take it more than I should b/c i want it to work.
But at 9pts, he's just to overcosted for what he does and his stats. imo.
Not only does he need a pts (or two) reduction, his rat needs to go up 1 and his Animus needs some lovin'.
I'd also love to see a bigger AOE, but hey, wishlisting is wishlisting. but I'd definitely settle for the above.

Let's be honest, for a point or two more we can get a full unit of Venators + UA and get much more tactical use with them.
It's even sicker when you compare the ol' cannoneer to the ravagore for legion or the turtle for gators.

Sigh, poor, poor cannoneer. he really is more like a 7 pts hvy the way he is at the moment.

[PG_Blitzer]

I find that argument to be false considering I can already do it with an agoniser effectively.

Not to mention if I'm blowing DWard on a beast it's not going a unit that really benefits from it, like Nihilators or Cetrati.

The issue is as it stands the Cannoneer's role is as a support beast, standing mid ranks knocking off annoying solos and supporting the front ranks. But her animus is ****e, counterproductive and doesn't work properly. Even if it was changed so it worked more like a Krea, where she could sit behind say a wall of Cetrati and help them out, the Cannoneer would be loads more useful.

As it stands Diminish functions barely more than a selfish animus. Who wants to pay 9pts for a selfish elephant that still wants another 5 pt beast (raider) and a 2pt solo (extoller) just so she can do her job of sniping thestupidelf***** and Tataresauce? It's not like she does a good job of anti infantry with a 3" blast, and she sucks up close for more points than our other beasts cost. The least she could do is provide some actual support at the same time.

eloquently put +1

[Triumph Of Man]

It's why the Siegelayer feels so much better, it's found a job and it's good at it. A nice fat 4" boostable blast for infantry clearing and sniping solos with, plus it brings some useful support in the form of Snipe so you can cut out the 5pt middlemancyclops. Being 1pt cheaper is just icing, I'd pay 9 for it.

The regular cannoneer on the other hand doesn't have a clue what it's doing. It's trying to threaten heavy targets, infantry, and support and be a brickblock all at the same time. And doesn't do any of the above with any decent value.

But I don't blame the Titan, as a Tyrant the first head I'm smacking is the paingiver's. It's their fault for training the beast to be crappy in the first place.

[GaspysInhaler]

I'm glad I got my cannoneer for only 10 bucks in the bargain bin at the local store here. Fully painted, rather well I might add. Too bad I haven't fielded it in over a year.


I just never get enough mileage out of it to justify its cost. It's so slow, can't hit anything with one of the lowest RAT's in the game for a "ranged beast", extremely situational animus. Not to mention 3" AOE's are really tame in MK2. To top it off, it is egregiously overcosted. I did not field the "Siege-Layer" because it only reminded me of how bad they dropped the ball on the regular cannoneer.

[alexandyr]

Really the 4" AOE is the big selling point of the siege layer in my opinion. Having that infantry-clearing power is something that is sorely missing from the faction. The current Cannoneer would almost be worth it with a larger AOE.

The animus is a really unfortunate match - it would be great on a beast that actually wanted to be up front, or if it could target others (even warbeast-only like Rush.) The trade of two transfers for an effective +2 armor in melee is not worth it on most of our casters (except Xerxis in certain situations.)

[Solarhaphaeriom]

Didn't we already have the Siege-Layer as a league model once?

[dommer01]

The Cannoneer was never meant to sit back and shoot every turn. If that's what you're doing, then you're doing it wrong I?m afraid. The Cannoneer is an effective beatstick with enrage while at the same time popping off pow 15, 3 inch blasts when needed. The Cannoneer is meant to soften up the enemy as the lines close and when they do meet, she turns into a club-wielding maniac. With enrage she is capable of charging and putting 3-4 pow 17s into something with either boosted to hit or damage. I don?t know about you, but that's pretty damn good. And if she has important models around, then you can choose to instead pop her animus effectively creating a 6~ inch circle of -2 strength for enemies or +2 armor for allies. Sure there are ways to get around this but with some foresight and proper positioning you can get the job done.

If you move 4 inches with this model you are then able to reliably hit def 14 with boost attk/dam from up to 16 inches away from your original starting point. That?s a caster-killer in some cases. Now let?s add some stuff to the mix. Add an Extoller, Raider, and Gladiator and you?re now walking 6 inches, shooting 16, and hitting stealthies. Sure you can say that it takes 15 pts to make 1 model good. You?re wrong. Those models are taken in a lot of lists and are very capable of causing their own damage when the lines meet. It?s called synergy and it?s very powerful with Skorne. Use that on your first turn and put 5-6 damage on the Death Jack before he even activates if he Advanced Deployed it. If you get some decent dice rolls you can really make an opponent cry. Best shot ever from my Cannonear was in a tournament, bottom of the 2^nd, I walked her up 6 inches and popped the Black 13 from midway across the table. Poof! Next?

[Earthcrosser599]

I find that argument to be false considering I can already do it with an agoniser effectively.

Not to mention if I'm blowing DWard on a beast it's not going a unit that really benefits from it, like Nihilators or Cetrati.

That's my point. If you could throw the Animus out anywhere you could stack it with the Defender's Ward bonus on units. Or Agonizer bonus, though that's much more limited.

The issue is as it stands the Cannoneer's role is as a support beast, standing mid ranks knocking off annoying solos and supporting the front ranks. But her animus is ****e, counterproductive and doesn't work properly. Even if it was changed so it worked more like a Krea, where she could sit behind say a wall of Cetrati and help them out, the Cannoneer would be loads more useful.

As it stands Diminish functions barely more than a selfish animus. Who wants to pay 9pts for a selfish elephant that still wants another 5 pt beast (raider) and a 2pt solo (extoller) just so she can do her job of sniping thestupidelf***** and Tataresauce? It's not like she does a good job of anti infantry with a 3" blast, and she sucks up close for more points than our other beasts cost. The least she could do is provide some actual support at the same time.

I agree. I'm not defending the Cannoneer's existing animus, simply saying that it's not going to change because the faction has access to Defender's Ward.

[Triumph Of Man]

se that on your first turn and put 5-6 damage on the Death Jack before he even activates if he Advanced Deployed it.

See, give me any other faction and that might matter. But you're talking about Skorne. Skorne. I don't care if Deathjack rolls up at full health, if I connect any of my warbeasts into him he's scrap metal, pure and simple. Nickle and diming hard targets from a distance is far less useful to our faction. If we played like Retribution? Sure, sniper rifles all day every day.

90% of the time High value high armour targets are lunch for skorne regardless of the list. You don't need your cannoneer backing you up on it. Where do we struggle? Anti infantry and High Def. What really hammers these? Bigger aoes, namely the siegelayer.

Best shot ever from my Cannonear was in a tournament, bottom of the 2nd, I walked her up 6 inches and popped the Black 13 from midway across the table. Poof! Next?

And some days I roll nothing but 6s. So what? You got lucky against an opponent who made a mega gaff and left 3 high value infantry targets clustered in a nice little 3" AOE for you to blast on one turn. Doesn't make the Cannoneer good for her cost.

As of right now, as you've pointed out the Cannoneer does exactly 1 thing useful, snipe annoying solos/solo-esque models (black 13th, Greatbears etc). If your opponent isn't packing something like this to go after then for the most part you've got a sub par Sentry to act as a Jamming beast. For the cost, I'd rather run a pair of Drakes. They're cheaper baseline, and are a practically self contained harrassment unit together. They don't need eyeless sight, and they don't benefit from snipe. The only thing they like is Rush from the omnipresent Gladiator. Give that to them and they're threating 16", more than enough to get the stupidelf***** and tataresauce to back the hell up.

Double spray is more reliable than one POW 15, and it's not worth committing models to bring them down because they're cheap *** lights. And when you don't have a solo that needs chasing off double sprays plow their way through infantry. Get enough under the template and boost you'll start bringing down quite a few DEF 16s on average dice.

Where the Cannoneer would shine if her animus wasn't so damn selfish so she could act as a support. She doesn't have the mobility to place diminish where it's truly needed, nor can she keep up with the prime suspects that would love it, namely that bronzeback or Sentry that are now balls deep in enemy ranks. Ashen veil on an Archidon is fantastic with the same basic threat area, but that's because you're working with flight and spd 7. You can place that debuff with precision. Canoneer on the other hand is lumbering around your midranks at spd 4, that's not quick enough. Plus she can't manouvre past models friendly or otherwise.If you keep her up front initially, well she gets jammed plus again, lumbering spd4 beast gets in the way of ****. To effectively and reliably protect other high value units like Cataphracts or another Titan she has to sit directly in front of them. I.e. her fat arse is in the way of everything. And god forbid she gets hit with some kind of spd debuff or hurled back into the friendlies and turns into literal roadblock.

At the end of everything, she's not a very versitile piece, doesn't really excel at what she does, and costs too much while she's at it. Double drakes are far cheaper and more versitile and will do the same job of hustling solos out of your face. Yeah, sure they don't hit as hard in melee as a Canoneer but again. Skorne. Core of the army already has that covered, the role of the support is to be cheap and fill out specific niche roles. Last thing you want is to spend so many points for your support that suddenly that's your core.

Now, give the Canonneer a buff as a supportive unit, or focus her abilities ala the siegelayer and suddenly she's alot lot better. Something as simple as giving Diminish a cast range, or extending the distance a short amount so she can support from behind rather than getting in the way of everything. Something like making Diminish a 3" range +0.5" per point of fury on the model would make it so much better (even capping the range at 4"). So then it could stand behind cataphracts/warbeasts and support them and make better use of her poking range.

[dommer01]

Triumph, I never said that the only thing a Cannoneer is good for is sniping solos. The complete opposite actually. The Cannoneer opens up other avenues of attack, that is the difference between it and other beatsticks. Just because it has a huge cannon does not mean it cannot damage enemy models in melee. The whole purpose of its animus is to enforce this very point. You use the cannon as the army closes the gap then engage in melee combat.

If you do not like the Cannoneer then use other models. For me, it finds its place in several of my lists. One person’s trash is another’s…..

[theHman]

I gotta agree wholeheartedly with Triumph on this one.
Sadly I've just never gotten much use or value from the cannoneer.
Why not just use a unit of venators + ua?

[dommer01]

I gotta agree wholeheartedly with Triumph on this one.
Sadly I've just never gotten much use or value from the cannoneer.
Why not just use a unit of venators + ua?

Again, it is just a different view of the model. It seems that the Cannoneer is viewed as a range heavy warbeast by general consensus. I look at it as melee warbeast with really good range capabilities ala diet Typhon.

[Triumph Of Man]

That's my point. If you could throw the Animus out anywhere you could stack it with the Defender's Ward bonus on units.

Even to protect Cetrati fully you'd need to cast it 2-3 times, that's a pretty heft Fury investment considering the Fury limits of our two casters with Defenders Ward. Protecting smaller units just wouldn't even be viable. The better point is you could throw it on your frontline beasts to help them out, and they're really unlikely to have Defenders ward on them. The only time the two might really intersect would be lategame, but hey, if you don't like it kill the Cannoneer before you transition.

Again, it is just a different view of the model. It seems that the Cannoneer is viewed as a range heavy warbeast by general consensus. I look at it as melee warbeast with really good range capabilities ala diet Typhon.

The difference being there Typhon is actually a really strong model in the first place.

[mauler78]

I would totally agree the base Cannoneer is just not worth the points. My complains would be he is 1pt to expensive. If his point cost was 8pts, then I would consider him interchangeable with the Gladiator, and would give more consideration to what I am looking for from my titans. His RAT is 1pt to low, RAT 5 is just barely enough to hit the broadside of the barn. I argue that average dice are not 7, but more like 5 or 6. Needing a 7 roll is basically a coin flip, so really mean the Cannoneer can only hit DEF10 with any consistency. Lastly either his RNG is to short or the AOE is to small, I would be willing to have either or. I know we just got the Raider which will help with range issues, but the model aside I think the cannon needs either 2" more range or a 4" AOE. Oh, and it's animius is total weak sauce.

[Glasskin]

Well, I'd say I get 9pts worth out of my Cannoneer almost every game I play. There are some games where I probably would have gotten more out of a Sentry, and some games where I would have gotten more out of 2 Drakes or Raiders, but most of the time I feel I made the right choice with the Cannoneer. She is the rug that really ties my strategy together.

That said, it probably is overcosted by a point, though it would be undercosted at 7. From what I hear, my experience with the Cannoneer isn't normal. If it cost 8pts, there would be a lot less friction with our other heavies when building an army, and people would feel more incentive to field it as a second, medium-cost heavy instead of struggling to justify it over a Sentry Bronzeback, or second Gladiator.

I get a lot of mileage out of Diminish. I cast it all the time with the Cannoneer (not so much with the warlock), and it often plays a central role in my advance.

That said, it's not a strong animus. Rng: Self and the two inch area are major limitations, and you're pretty much not going to get much use out of it if the Cannoneer's not on the front lines. If it were Rng: 6 it would be incredible. I would never stop casting it, and it would give the Cannoneer a much better-defined place in our lists.

At some point in the next couple of days, I'll post how I use the Cannoneer, what I expect out of it, how I support it, and why I feel I get a lot out of it.

Maybe people will find it helpful, and get some good use out of her. Maybe not. I feel the regular Cannoneer can be very playstyle dependant.