Ret's Answer to Cryx

[Baptism By Ice]

Sorry for starting two threads literally one after the other, but this has also been on my mind: What is Ret's answer to Cryx? Outside of SFA spam to handle the low-ARM swarm and Halbs to soak up the charge from banes, I'm left not seeing a strong counter to Cryx.

So... thoughts/advice?

[Murkhadh]

Sorry for starting two threads literally one after the other, but this has also been on my mind: What is Ret's answer to Cryx? Outside of SFA spam to handle the low-ARM swarm and Halbs to soak up the charge from banes, I'm left not seeing a strong counter to Cryx.

So... thoughts/advice?

It helps if you list which Cryx matchups.

Kaelyssa is a hard counter to pDenny and the magicky cryx casters

Bane spam is beset handled by melee, you will generally out threat the banes Ossyan does this best with quicken

Skarree with Satyxis are easily handled By ravyn, Osssayn with halbs Or even kaelyssa with her denial feat.

who else?

[RetributionBomb]

It helps if you list which Cryx matchups.

Kaelyssa is a hard counter to pDenny and the magicky cryx casters

Bane spam is beset handled by melee, you will generally out threat the banes Ossyan does this best with quicken

Skarree with Satyxis are easily handled By ravyn, Osssayn with halbs Or even kaelyssa with her denial feat.

who else?

Bane Spam should only be handled by Melee if you have killed off Tartarus, otherwise you just fed him a bunch of corpses Tartarus can turn into Banes, likely replacing all the ones you killed the turn before.

[Rogue Sun]

Play Kaelyssa. You'll see how Ret answers Cryx. They're not so dangerous when your bag of tricks is just a full as theirs.

[Kallas]

Play Kaelyssa. You'll see how Ret answers Cryx. They're not so dangerous when your bag of tricks is just a full as theirs.

This.

And when only half your bag of tricks halts all of their big ones.

[Murkhadh]

This.

And when only half your bag of tricks halts all of their big ones.

This again, Kae does handle most if not all of Cryx just fine.

[skarreslave2]

unless is terminus its easy to handle cryx(at least for me, but I'm also a cryx player) use your mage hunters and kill the arcnodes. the jack does not need to be dead, just unable to arc. After that the caster has to get close and cryx casters don't like to do that.

ravyn, feat, snipe and full mage hunters should be able to kill 2-4 arcnodes in a single round with decent rolls. MHSF roll 3d6-4 on jacks with 20 boxes. average of 6 boxes per hit means 2-3 attacks per crippled chicken. After that its just cleanup on the other 2/3s of the army.

[Rogue Sun]

Terminus isn't too bad. Kaelyssa or Rhan (even Ossyan can do it) handle him fine. Kaelyssa casts backlash and laughs while all his armor and protective swarm mean nothing. Rhan simply pulls him out of his swarm and lets assassins or sentinels go to work.

Terminus is easy in the sense that he doesn't have any tricks. He's just Cryx's version of the Butcher and his army is merely a delivery system.

[Mavwick]

Kaelyssa is only a great answer to magic-heavy Cryx, which hasn't been as much of a competitive staple as melee-heavy armies. You want to find a way to kill Tartarus and Discordia is your best bet there. Then find a way for Discordia to not get ganked by the remaining Thralls or if you fail, which comes to tricks that maneuver her out of the way like TK, Locomotion or Admonition. That last one is on Ossyan, who has become a decent fallback for Cryx, with Stormfall Archers killing most infantry with deviations and Discordia nuking Tartarus easily.

If Terminus is a problem, just take Garryth and laugh.

[Baptism By Ice]

I guess my main concerns against Cryx are three core issues: incorporeal, Satyxis, and stealthed models with high ARM (that is, banes).

Incorporeal. It seems that most of Ret's magic weapons lay on their jacks and casters, and that normal infantry don't have access to magic weapons. If I need to rely on jacks for this threat, that's fine, it's just something that I'll need to tweak my list(s) for. It seems that possibly the Daemon might fit this bill fairly well, as having Hellmouth on a magic gun is just super good. I just worry that you will get one turn of using its gun before getting counter charged and thus dismantled.

Satyxis. What does one do against DEF16 models that are immune to blast damage? The best plan I can imagine is just "take Ravyn" but outside of that I'm kind of drawing a blank. Maybe Invictors with 2-man re-rollable CRAs?

Stealthed with high-ARM. I realize that Tartarsauce will only be in one list so I won't ALWAYS be facing him, but if I have no answer for him, I am in a bad spot. The best answer I have for banes I suppose is to get the charge on them. They don't take kindly to getting charged, after all, but Ret has no speed shenanigans outside of Vyros to help ensure that I(/we) can get the alpha-strike on banes.

Suggestions?


PS: Please don't take this post as me saying "Man, Ret sucks why do I even try to play wah wah wah [/rage quit]." These are just some issues that I am not yet seeing the solution to, thus I am seeking advice. I make this PS note, as complaining/whining is rather prevalent on the Khador boards, and I don't wish to appear like that.

[Xarian]

Incorporeal. It seems that most of Ret's magic weapons lay on their jacks and casters, and that normal infantry don't have access to magic weapons. If I need to rely on jacks for this threat, that's fine, it's just something that I'll need to tweak my list(s) for. It seems that possibly the Daemon might fit this bill fairly well, as having Hellmouth on a magic gun is just super good. I just worry that you will get one turn of using its gun before getting counter charged and thus dismantled.

There are ways of moving that Daemon around so that it doesn't get counter-charged. Also, you could try using Aiyana with MHSF.

Satyxis. What does one do against DEF16 models that are immune to blast damage? The best plan I can imagine is just "take Ravyn" but outside of that I'm kind of drawing a blank. Maybe Invictors with 2-man re-rollable CRAs?

Also the Daemon - note that it doesn't do any blast damage. If you can assasinate the UA, all the stormfalls will work, too.

Stealthed with high-ARM. I realize that Tartarsauce will only be in one list so I won't ALWAYS be facing him, but if I have no answer for him, I am in a bad spot. The best answer I have for banes I suppose is to get the charge on them. They don't take kindly to getting charged, after all, but Ret has no speed shenanigans outside of Vyros to help ensure that I(/we) can get the alpha-strike on banes.

Discordia (and Skarath, I guess), if you're able to get the spray off. You can also try using the AFG to lay down rough terrain.

[Lord Sessadore]

Stealthed with high-ARM. I realize that Tartarsauce will only be in one list so I won't ALWAYS be facing him, but if I have no answer for him, I am in a bad spot. The best answer I have for banes I suppose is to get the charge on them. They don't take kindly to getting charged, after all, but Ret has no speed shenanigans outside of Vyros to help ensure that I(/we) can get the alpha-strike on banes.

Remember that for speed shenanigans Ossyan has Quicken as well. Sentinels or Halberdiers with Quicken should out-threat banes - 12" and 13" charging threat, respectively. Just make sure you kill Tartarus before you charge.

[Zakion]

I personally find Rahn is our best cournter to Cryx. Against the soft casters he normally assasinates them with a chain blast x2 with wyshler (sp?). Taking him also gives you plenty of anti incorp stuff and enough tricks to mess them up. Rayvn is also good but I hate having to use 1 of my shooting units to clear out the Satyxis, there good at it I just hate doing it. Also having Holt and Co stops any incorp tricks too.

[MMMMK]

Personally, I've found that Cryx players hate and whine most about the Mage Hunter Assassin. She has the potential to one-shot or badly cripple even a Cryx Helljack, and can serve to remove some of the key support solos and UAs that Cryx rely on (Particularly Tartarus but there are many many targets for her in a Cryx list). That said, they are somewhat unreliable and should be working in pairs to ensure that an important solo is killed.

If you are trying to build an anti-Cryx list keep in mind that they tend to rely on their infantry. They can run cheap swarms (Mech thralls, best killed with AoE) tough stealth weaponmasters (Bane Thralls, make sure to kill their support before bothering trying to wipe out the unit itself) and Satyxis (Two kinds. I personally find these to be the toughest to deal with, but with the arrival of the Daemon I think that they will be less scary).

[absent]

Best answer is to pray to whatever deity you identify with and see if you get a response

[MMMMK]

Best answer is to pray to whatever deity you identify with and see if you get a response

Haha, but I find that Cryx is not a bad matchup for us so long we we play the right casters (or a balanced list) in order not to be screwed over by stealthed Banes or Stealthed 'casters. Personally, I've found that praying is only necessary against Legion

[absent]

I was mostly being silly, and cryx is beatable by ret

However, I have had the fortune to play against one of the very best cryx players with my ret, and several very good tournament winning players, and its not really a gem of a matchup for ret to be honest, once you are playing against that top level of player. The stealth issue is a big one with tartarus and a lot of their casters having occulation or just stealth. We have some nice anti magic answers, but usually ret has a real problem holding up in melee and that is where cryx excels at getting. They (cryx) are overblown as spell slingers, that is such a minor part of their game, and honestly fairly often having 80% of your army dodging spells its the other 20% that you needed it on often enough to make you wish you didnt even have the other 80% protected =P (perdition and excarnate can trigger off of anything and they can probably get to those unprotected models with them, parasite and CG are best on casters and jacks, can't soulless escort those, can only bward one). Also they do have some upkeep removal on a stealth unit. Kaelyssa gets tossed around as an answer, but in my experience she lacks the horsepower to deal with what cryx rams into you most of the time, i know i had a pretty sound game against eskarre and pdenny with neither side making any big mistakes and the tactics looking pretty clean, and kaelyssa did not fair well in either game. I'd rather have ravyn, rahn, or ossayan against them, at least ravyn and rahn have melee threat range extenders to try and get the sauce or whatever other important model, and ossayans feat + a spray can in theory have a good shot at it, and at least when i hit them back they will die with those casters.

Really i'd just treat your caster selection against cryx like any other army, just be prepared to have to play more defensively against them to avoid really bad swings in cryx favor, like withershadow making free jacks or bile thrall purges from hell killing half your army. Look for big swings and avoid them, and try and take them into the late game where an opportunity might open for a caster kill try or for your early shooting attrition to have turned the tide in your favor because you didn't give them the game on a silly offensive try that lead you into that big point swing.

[rolandhadley]

I guess my main concerns against Cryx are three core issues: incorporeal, Satyxis, and stealthed models with high ARM (that is, banes).

Incorporeal. It seems that most of Ret's magic weapons lay on their jacks and casters, and that normal infantry don't have access to magic weapons. If I need to rely on jacks for this threat, that's fine, it's just something that I'll need to tweak my list(s) for. It seems that possibly the Daemon might fit this bill fairly well, as having Hellmouth on a magic gun is just super good. I just worry that you will get one turn of using its gun before getting counter charged and thus dismantled.

Satyxis. What does one do against DEF16 models that are immune to blast damage? The best plan I can imagine is just "take Ravyn" but outside of that I'm kind of drawing a blank. Maybe Invictors with 2-man re-rollable CRAs?

Stealthed with high-ARM. I realize that Tartarsauce will only be in one list so I won't ALWAYS be facing him, but if I have no answer for him, I am in a bad spot. The best answer I have for banes I suppose is to get the charge on them. They don't take kindly to getting charged, after all, but Ret has no speed shenanigans outside of Vyros to help ensure that I(/we) can get the alpha-strike on banes.

Suggestions?


PS: Please don't take this post as me saying "Man, Ret sucks why do I even try to play wah wah wah [/rage quit]." These are just some issues that I am not yet seeing the solution to, thus I am seeking advice. I make this PS note, as complaining/whining is rather prevalent on the Khador boards, and I don't wish to appear like that.

As noted, Ravyn handles a lot of this very well. A&H are a great part of a Ravyn army, being in Mastershake's core list, helping bust hard targets and completely handling the incorporeal issue. Sniped MHSF with A&H's magic weapons will kill off anything incorporeal real fast.

They'll also kill Satyxis without a problem as you noted.

Regarding bane spam, I'm a fan of taking a unit of halberdiers in a Ravyn list. With their good speed and reach, they'll generally get the first charge, and kill a bunch of stuff. Veil of mists also helps in making sure you get the first charge.

[Fathoym]

I find Kae my best bet when coming up to Cryx. Especially the Denny match ups. You may have issues dealing with the infantry, but Kae can assassinate Denny just with her 3 shots. Throw Sylys in there and you've got a decent arcantrik bolt shot to do it with on the harder casters.

Also Discordia ruins banes, hard. 6s to hit and then its a tough roll.

[absent]

i'd want better than 50% odds when saying "ruins hard"

[joelker41]

i'd want better than 50% odds when saying "ruins hard"

You do realize that rolling a 6 on two dice is bordering 60-65% probability right?

[Murkhadh]

You do realize that rolling a 6 on two dice is bordering 60-65% probability right?

This, and in this faction this is among the best odds we get.

[Watchtower]

You do realize that rolling a 6 on two dice is bordering 60-65% probability right?

Not when you take into account the tough roll. He was saying the chances of killing Banes, not hitting them.

Please read the whole thread before you criticize.

[Jestor]

It's actually less then 50%. Pretty sad

Whenever I play against Cryx that isn't eDenny I generally play for scenario first and assassination second. Thier casters are generally tough for us to assassinate for one reason or another.

[Ralphus]

It's okay though, with MHAs they have decapitation which ignores Tough rolls. My personal record vs Cryx so far is Rayvn 3-1 and Kaelyssa 1-0, two Rayvn wins vs Terminus and one win/loss vs PDenny with Kae picking up a win vs PDenny.

[Fathoym]

i'd want better than 50% odds when saying "ruins hard"

You mis-interpret. I don't mean Discordia has a decent chance of killing an entire unit of banes, but even by having a really decent chance of forcing a tough roll on banes you've disrupted them in their next turn. Having to forfeit movement or action is a pain for banes. Plus, the ability to target the UA or Tartarus and boost damage is very nice

[Chip]

You mis-interpret. I don't mean Discordia has a decent chance of killing an entire unit of banes, but even by having a really decent chance of forcing a tough roll on banes you've disrupted them in their next turn. Having to forfeit movement or action is a pain for banes. Plus, the ability to target the UA or Tartarus and boost damage is very nice

If you knock Bane thralls down, they stand for free. Just another fun special rule they get with their Officer

[Fathoym]

Oh woops, guess I don't play against the UA often enough

[MetalStorm]

That Rule and the Tough they get from their standard bearer go away if you kill them. If you ever get the chance to scalpel them out or get a Discordia spray on them its usually well worth the shot.

[TIEActor]

anything besides banes and its guns, lots of guns

[MMMMK]

Killing the Bane Standard Bearer is almost impossible unless your opponent really messes up, unfortunately. So the unit will usually have tough down to the last man. Killing the officer is well worth it, though.

[Kallas]

Killing the Bane Standard Bearer is almost impossible unless your opponent really messes up, unfortunately. So the unit will usually have tough down to the last man. Killing the officer is well worth it, though.

Pretty much this.
Thankfully they lose Tough if the Standard is out of formation (pg3 of the Errata) so if you can kill the Officer and the leader's not got the Standard in his command range, you can potentially ignore Tough.

Situational? Yes. Useful to remember? Oh hell yeah!

[Leo_the_Rat]

Or you can kill the banes within 1" of the standard first. Then take out the standard in the next attack (during the same turn) there will be no one there to pick the standard up.

[Kallas]

Or you can kill the banes within 1" of the standard first. Then take out the standard in the next attack (during the same turn) there will be no one there to pick the standard up.

It's more the point that the Standard will be 9" behind the Officer. Makes it tough (aha!) to get at.

[Leo_the_Rat]

If he's that far away from his friends then let Narn become his new buddy. Or just line him up for some shooting lanes and drop him. Once he falls he's really just road kill waiting for the crows to come by.

[Kallas]

If he's that far away from his friends then let Narn become his new buddy. Or just line him up for some shooting lanes and drop him. Once he falls he's really just road kill waiting for the crows to come by.

As much as I dislike Theorymachine, this really isn't easy.

The Standard is significantly behind the commander and both have Stealth, with Tough and with a bunch of other Banes between them. Narn is a nice sentiment, but it's unlikely he'll get the range without at least one turn of being exposed to counter attacks.

Abilities on Standards (ie, Bane and Winter Guard) are annoying to remove simply because of the layered protection (distance and Stealth/Tough/High DEF) they get for little cost.

Take the opportunity to take them out if possible but generally you'll have to suffer their presence most of the time.

[absent]

If i was bringing narn, I'd rather try and get narn into the sauce than the standard to be honest. At least them i'm trading narns 3pts for 4 instead of discordia's 10 for that same 4. Narn being fearless gives him a better chance to come home than the MHA too, the MHA to kill sauce needs to roll a 12 on the weaponmaster swing, narn a 14 but has a 2nd chance at probably a lower needed number (but no charge die), no fear check, and a higher mat.

Once sauce is done for the easy answer to banes his housegaurd halbs anyway. or nyss hunters, or even MHSF will give them a hard time at that point.

[Ilay]

BTW.
Shadowmancer+bane spam anyone?
pGoreshade is mean. Also, makes cryx jacks really killy.
Not a eKaya of course but still tough.
I've encountered eldritch once and this was pretty disgusting. Still won though. Assassination run with Kae. But it was more luck than skill. So any advise is appreciated.