Conquest- What do you want it to do?

[sarukamate]

1) You specified a Khador heavy.

You're right, I did. I meant a collosal. My mistake. Those weapons on the fists is still an unreasonable expectation - particularly since this thing will be loaded out with guns.
Simpler to assume some kind of combi-strike with crit slam.

[quindraco]

You're right, I did. I meant a collosal. My mistake. Those weapons on the fists is still an unreasonable expectation - particularly since this thing will be loaded out with guns.
Simpler to assume some kind of combi-strike with crit slam.

Crit slam wouldn't have any effect on the damage, but combo-strike is an interesting idea. A Defender dies in one shot to a POW 48 hit, since it has 30 boxes, or a POW 39 delivered with armor piercing. Of those, you can account for 18 points with straight sixes on a boosted punch, or 24 with brutal/weapon master/etc.

Assuming crit brutal but replacing AP with combo strike, we get needing POW 24 on the combo strike. Now, Behemoth is STR 12 and it's unlikely for Conquest to be weaker. If Conquest *is* str 12, he'd need P+S 18 on his fists to hit 24 on the combo strike. This is well within reason. Without crit brutal, you'd be looking at P+S 21 fists, also within reason given the incredibly high point cost and major downsides of these things.

This is an elegant solution, and I like it. Well spotted.

[VaulSC]

I want it to have good interaction with a lot of casters. By the sounds of it, colossals count as a battlegroup model but not as a warjack. So you can boundless charge or energizer it, but not put superiority on it, etc etc.

However if it has some special rules that make it useful for some of the casters that can't offer assistance to the above, then great. As it stands, I actually like it with eVlad better than pVlad because in this case you're only upkeeping hand of fate on it rather than spending 4 focus for Signs and Portents each turn. And pVlad's feat won't work on it, whereas eVlad's feat will help your infantry protect the Conquest.

eButcher could put ravager on it, but I don't see it hitting often unless it has some in-built way to increase accuracy for example. I would like every caster to be able to take a conquest in a 35 point game (or even less) and provide it with some help.

[jdeckert]

And pVlad's feat won't work on it...

Why not? Vlad's feat isn't out-of-activation movement, am I missing something?

Edit: Ah, missed the part where you said you don't think they'll be typed as warjacks. I think they will...

[KhaosSpectyr]

[QUOTE=VaulSC;139289By the sounds of it, colossals count as a battlegroup model but not as a warjack.[/QUOTE]

No Quarter #41, Page 37
"NQ: What makes colossals different than warjacks?
JS: I'd like to start off by saying that colossals are warjacks-just really, really big ones."

[correlation2]

lol,

Let's all mod our Conquests to be dancing with the Behemoth.

[sarukamate]

Crit slam wouldn't have any effect on the damage, but combo-strike is an interesting idea. A Defender dies in one shot to a POW 48 hit, since it has 30 boxes, or a POW 39 delivered with armor piercing. Of those, you can account for 18 points with straight sixes on a boosted punch, or 24 with brutal/weapon master/etc.

Assuming crit brutal but replacing AP with combo strike, we get needing POW 24 on the combo strike. Now, Behemoth is STR 12 and it's unlikely for Conquest to be weaker. If Conquest *is* str 12, he'd need P+S 18 on his fists to hit 24 on the combo strike. This is well within reason. Without crit brutal, you'd be looking at P+S 21 fists, also within reason given the incredibly high point cost and major downsides of these things.

This is an elegant solution, and I like it. Well spotted.

Crit slam affects the damage if there's a wall/obstruction (or equal/larger based model) behind the model you slam. One additional die. The rest of the maths works out like you said. Assuming S 12 and P 6 for a P+S 24 combostrike and 24 for four dice of slam gives you the 48 damage to one shot the Defender... but in a way that seems much more balanced to me. A Marauder with Fury could do this already.

It's been mentioned that Collosals get an extra 2" on throw/slam distances to reflect their size. If they had much higher S than normal this rule wouldn't be needed. So I think S 12 is reasonable.

[quindraco]

Crit slam affects the damage if there's a wall/obstruction (or equal/larger based model) behind the model you slam. One additional die. The rest of the maths works out like you said. Assuming S 12 and P 6 for a P+S 24 combostrike and 24 for four dice of slam gives you the 48 damage to one shot the Defender... but in a way that seems much more balanced to me. A Marauder with Fury could do this already.

It's been mentioned that Collosals get an extra 2" on throw/slam distances to reflect their size. If they had much higher S than normal this rule wouldn't be needed. So I think S 12 is reasonable.

Adding in constraints like something to slam against complicates the solution, and we're aiming for maximum simplicity. In any event, P+S 21 isn't out of the question - it's only 2 above a juggernaut or Beast 09, and I'm fairly certain all of the colossals will hit like a truck. Combo strike is especially interesting on them since it's self-nerfing in the sense that colossals have to work with weapon arcs like battle engines do, which means combo strike will only work on something the colossal has carefully lined up its center line with, so it's inherently more balanced than it looks at first glance.

The released information on the Kraken and the Stormwall implies that they'll be incredible at clearing infantry, very reasonable at clearing enemy lights, and will likely need their entire activation to kill an enemy heavy. I'm excited about the fact that Conquest is probably going to be the best at trying to wipe an enemy colossal in one activation.

[sarukamate]

I agree with you on the Conquests' probable "role" but I still wonder just how much melee power it'll get over, for example, Behemoth (or even a Juggernaut). It's got a lot of guns and in WM, guns cost. My mind always goes back to the Destroyer. Take a seven point Jug, drop it's P+S by 2, downdrage it's crit and strip off its secondary weapon (a fist, allowing certain power attack options). What you've got left must be 6 points maximum. So the bombard is "worth" 3 points. Given that the bombard is strictly worse than a winterguard mortar stat-wise (lower range, lower POW, smaller AOE) some of that extra cost must be simply because it's on a jack platform (and that's fair enough). Now look at the guns all over a Conquest. Those will eat like crazy into the 18-20 points we'll be paying for it. So will it's extra resilience, immunity to many of the usual "stalling" tactics like KD or disruption. So will its new power attacks. It's going to be good in melee, no doubt very good, but I don't think it's going to be in a whole new territory of destructiveness.

[VaulSC]

No Quarter #41, Page 37
"NQ: What makes colossals different than warjacks?
JS: I'd like to start off by saying that colossals are warjacks-just really, really big ones."

I heard elsewhere that they still aren't affected by rules that specifically affect warjacks. Can anyone confirm this? Kraye is probably the best colossal user if all of his 'warjack' support abilities work on them.

[Aggroculture]

No No the cannon ontop shoots the bears weild axes 14 inches with arcing fire ... who let the warhammer gobles design that... and has special attack were it picks up light jacks and uses them like baseball bats (special rule) if light jack has an arc node the warcaster using conquest in his battle group gaines us of that arc node

[correlation2]

I can't imagine 'elsewhere' has more authority on the matter than PP themselves. They've been saying since Day 1 of the Colossals video that Colossals are warjacks and part of the battlegroup. The only thing they're limited by is the fact that they can only move during their activation.

[KhaosSpectyr]

I can't imagine 'elsewhere' has more authority on the matter than PP themselves. They've been saying since Day 1 of the Colossals video that Colossals are warjacks and part of the battlegroup. The only thing they're limited by is the fact that they can only move during their activation.

thats what ive been saying. If they dont get to use any buffs that say "Warjack" then what the heck is the point if them? theyd just be bigger battle engines...

[hurley895]

Me and a buddie talked over the ideas behind the Colossals. I think they are designed to kill infantry. Tons of low pow shots so that players go jack heavy to fight them. Think about what each of them is equipped with!

[KhaosSpectyr]

Me and a buddie talked over the ideas behind the Colossals. I think they are designed to kill.

I fixed your post, and now i agree with it lol
im sure they will kill troops very well, but for the same or less points i can take 2 WGI squads, 1 UA and Widdowmakers, and wipe infantry out like crazy. Unless the Conquest has some kinda Rain of Death (thatd be awesome, tho unlikely) hes gonna see most of his use against other jacks. Those huge fists arent gonna be low P+S unless they have AP, and those guns are just to keep people occupied untill im close enough to hammerfist them.

[Septimus]

My theory is ARM 21, with a buckler on each fist, for a total ARM of 22 from the front, as each buckler will only cover one facing.

No idea about the guns.

[Natetehaggresar]

I'm not expecting over arm 21. Armor and lots of hit point has a multiplicative effect, if he has armor in the 23ish + range an army that isn't specifically designed to kill a model with arm 23 ~ 70 hp just won't be able to deal with it.

On a related note, I'm worried about galleon. Broadsides Bart with Batten Down the Hatches, and Spiney Growth, ick. If that thing is arm 19, +3, + 2 = arm 24. Your ice axe is at dice - 5 and you take d3 damage every time you hit me.

[Alexwheeler]

im hoping this stat/ability line

SPD 4 STR 12 MAT 6 RAT 5 DEF 10 ARM 23 COST 20


Main Gun: RNG 14 AOE 5 ROF 2 POW 15
Devastating Explosion: the AOE from this attack creates rough terrain and does not expire.

LEFT/RIGHT GUN: RNG 10 AOE - ROF 2 POW 12
When target model is hit center a 6" spray at the edge of the models base in line from this model.
all models under the spray are hit and suffer a pow 12 damage roll.

LEFT/RIGHT ARMS: POW 5 P+S 17

Each time this model makes an attack with this weapon, models within 2" are pushed 3" directly away and are Knocked down.

Innate abilities:
Virtuoso
LEFT/RIGHT arms are thresher attacks

only if this came true .... QQ

[Seventhprophet]

I'm not expecting over arm 21. Armor and lots of hit point has a multiplicative effect, if he has armor in the 23ish + range an army that isn't specifically designed to kill a model with arm 23 ~ 70 hp just won't be able to deal with it.

On a related note, I'm worried about galleon. Broadsides Bart with Batten Down the Hatches, and Spiney Growth, ick. If that thing is arm 19, +3, + 2 = arm 24. Your ice axe is at dice - 5 and you take d3 damage every time you hit me.

I think things like this are a positive for this game actually. I would hate to think they are designing these things thinking they have to make it so a majority of models can hurt it every swing. I think if you aren't bringing something to crack armor then you built your list poorly. how are you going to hurt a caster camping focus? Same thing with def 19 assassins, need some answer or you will have problems.

I'm hoping for at least arm 22.

[Natetehaggresar]

I think things like this are a positive for this game actually. I would hate to think they are designing these things thinking they have to make it so a majority of models can hurt it every swing. I think if you aren't bringing something to crack armor then you built your list poorly. how are you going to hurt a caster camping focus? Same thing with def 19 assassins, need some answer or you will have problems.

I'm hoping for at least arm 22.

I respectfully disagree. Its not possible to account for everything as it is now when list building. If I had to take out something with armor 23 and around 70 HP I would have to build specifically FOR it, not just include things that can crack armor. 3 charging Juggernauts (with 9 focus! or a feat that grants a free charge, and 2 focus each) can hardly scratch that much armor.

Each Juggernaut is hitting at dice minus 4. The charge will on average do 6.5, the fist will do nothing, then each additional attack will do and average of 3. So with 3 Juggernauts you are averaging 31.5 damage. No to mention the juggernauts would be taking fire from those guns on the way in. If we were to reduce the armor down to 21, the charge would net you an expected 8.5 damage, and each additional would net you 5 damage. for a total of 55.5 damage. Still not scraping it, but seemingly much more reasonable for the focus and point investment.

This sort of numbers inflation is BAD for the game. How can people build lists to account for not just high armor and high def, but rediculously high def, like 19, and ridiculously high armor, like 23 with 70 boxes, deal with incorporeal and on and on. You break the game down in to rock paper scissors at list selection. The reason why warmachine is so dynamic, is because most models are capable of dealing meaningful damage to most other models in this game. We already hate it that there is dead weight in faction, this just adds to it because pow 19, and mat 6 is useless against everything, instead of some things.

I don't want colossals to become pieces you must have to compete, and arm stupid will do that.

Just editing to say, I already feel constrained enough in my model selection, I don't want it to get worse. It ideally it should be about how you play, not what you play, so long as you're running a balanced list.

I'm not excited about conquest because I think it will break the game with durability. I'm excited about conquest because the behemoth is my favorite jack, because of its guns, and I'm looking forward to having another option, especially a non-character one, to bring some serious ranged fire power to my games.

[correlation2]

To be fair if it has most of the BE rules then you can CRA this thing in virtually any situation. I foresee Longgunner POW 20 double taps making a comeback.

But yeah, the armor isn't a problem, it's having x2 grids that's the problem. You can throw everything at an ARM 25 Devastator if you really want to and maybe kill it, but I can't think of many reasonable armies that can do that twice in one turn.

( PS Ragman + Conquest = lulz )

[KhaosSpectyr]

3 charging Juggernauts (with 9 focus! or a feat that grants a free charge, and 2 focus each) can hardly scratch that much armor.

That may be, but pButcher, Behemoth and 2 zerkers can scrap one with arm 22 and two FULL grids (72 boxes) in one turn.
Allow me to explain (this happens to be the plan i will use for fighting enemy collosals, feel free to use it)

This "simulation" does not assume anything above average rolls; ie all 3's and 4's
Full Throttle for 3 focus, 3 focus on Big-B, Butchers feat turn
Zerkers charger: 2 attacks ea (Mat5, +3 Dice (full throttle), avg roll:3,3,4. Hit on both, 4 hits total)
Damage: 1st Initial. P+S 16+4dice (charge, feat), avg roll:3,3,4,4. 30dam. minus armor 22. 8 damage*
2nd Initial. P+S 16+3dice (just feat), avg roll:3,3,4. 26dam. minus armor 22. 4 damage*
*12 damge from each zerker, 24 total so far

Big-B's Turn: 5 Attacks (2 initial, +3 from focus), Mat 6, avg rolls (initial):3,3,4 Both hit, bonus attacks: 3,4, all 3 hit (5 hits total)
Damage: P+S12 AP +4dice (charge feat), avg roll:3,3,4,4. 26 dam. minus armor 11(from AP). 15 damage*
next 4 hits, P+S12 AP +3dice (just feat), avg roll:3,3,4. 22dam. minus armor 11(from AP). 11damage/hit. so times 4 hits: 44 damage*
*59 damage from Big-B

Total damage: 83. yes thats assuming all the attacks hit, but if these things have def10 like battle engines then yeah, youll hit.
Also this assumed all rolls were 3's and 4's, so its not guaranteed, but on the other end, Behemoth couldve killed one himself if he'd rolled 5's and 6's in this situation.

[Natetehaggresar]

That may be, but pButcher, Behemoth and 2 zerkers can scrap one with arm 22 and two FULL grids (72 boxes) in one turn.
Allow me to explain (this happens to be the plan i will use for fighting enemy collosals, feel free to use it)

This "simulation" does not assume anything above average rolls; ie all 3's and 4's
Full Throttle for 3 focus, 3 focus on Big-B, Butchers feat turn
Zerkers charger: 2 attacks ea (Mat5, +3 Dice (full throttle), avg roll:3,3,4. Hit on both, 4 hits total)
Damage: 1st Initial. P+S 16+4dice (charge, feat), avg roll:3,3,4,4. 30dam. minus armor 22. 8 damage*
2nd Initial. P+S 16+3dice (just feat), avg roll:3,3,4. 26dam. minus armor 22. 4 damage*
*12 damge from each zerker, 24 total so far

Big-B's Turn: 5 Attacks (2 initial, +3 from focus), Mat 6, avg rolls (initial):3,3,4 Both hit, bonus attacks: 3,4, all 3 hit (5 hits total)
Damage: P+S12 AP +4dice (charge feat), avg roll:3,3,4,4. 26 dam. minus armor 11(from AP). 15 damage*
next 4 hits, P+S12 AP +3dice (just feat), avg roll:3,3,4. 22dam. minus armor 11(from AP). 11damage/hit. so times 4 hits: 44 damage*
*59 damage from Big-B

Total damage: 83. yes thats assuming all the attacks hit, but if these things have def10 like battle engines then yeah, youll hit.
Also this assumed all rolls were 3's and 4's, so its not guaranteed, but on the other end, Behemoth couldve killed one himself if he'd rolled 5's and 6's in this situation.

So your saying that if you play the caster in the game with more damage buffs than any other I can think of off the top of my head, with one of the best single target damage out puts in the game, and another 12 points in other warjacks, and use his feat you can kill conquest? So you essentially had to devote 23 points worth of models, and your casters feat, and your full focus load to kill a model that is between 18 and 20 points?

I feel like you're proving my point for me. The other 10 faction in this game don't have a model with armour peircing as a weapon quality to be paired with an additional damage die.

My point is not that it is invincible, but that it makes things like 30 points worth of stromclads, which are cygnar's best armor cracking jack, essentially impotent versus it massive damage grid and armor rating.

Or another example, efeora and avatar and a bonded templar.
Avater rolls 4 for focus, starts the round with ignite on it, 4 focus allocated to the Templar, and both are infused by the choir.
Avatar charge at pow 23 dice damage ~ 10.5
Three additional attacks at dice damage ~ 21
Fist pow 18 now I think? ~ 2
Total 33.5
feora activates, takes a focus from wracks and cycles ignite to the Templar
templar charges pow 21 dice minus 2 ~ 8.5
Three additional attacks ~15
Fist pow 18 now I think? ~2
Total 25.5

Total 58 damage for 22 points worth of models, with a cycle of a damage buff, and all of a casters focus. This is also an extreme best case scenario, with a group of warjacks that can be buffed and allocated focus way above what most casters are capable of.

Its not something that what we now consider a balanced all comers list could handle. Meta shifts with new releases, but in this cast conquest would be nearly an auto include, unless he was super pillow fisted and his guns sucked.

EDIT: I didn't realize that in your above post you were working with an arm 22 conquest. IF you bump you conquest up to arm 23, it still should die with 74 damage received. IF you bump my conquest down to 22 arm he still lives taking 68 damage.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Alright, now could you do it the other way? Make a 50 point list with a Conquest (20 points) in it. I would like to see how much fire and other abilities it will take before it gets close.

[Natetehaggresar]

I don't understand you question.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Write a list which includes the conquest in it. As a long term imperial guardsman player, I know how being outnumbered is a huge weakness in many cases.

[Seventhprophet]

Nate, it's seems like you want to be able to scrap one in a single activation. Don't you think that these should be something that takes more than 2 jacks going all out on to kill in one turn? For the points and size, it has to be able to hold up to punishment for more than a turn or no one will dish out $135 for it outside of painters.

I can't think of a single list I run that can't crack 23 arm, 70 boxes if I really had to.

And really, if I'm not able to, then I should have enough quick models on the board to have a nice go at a caster kill since 18-20 points of my enemy is tied up in one model.

And honestly, this all makes me think of how many times I've had a closed devastator get scrapped. Arm 22-23 is not as invincible as you make it sound.

Either way PP has their hands full getting these things balanced between worth the money and worth fielding. Not many khador seem to run two jacks as it is. To have one jack that is easier to hit, harder to move around the field and cost just as much seems a little iffy if it doesn't do something worth it, or able to take the attention it will get. I hope they do us right

[Natetehaggresar]

Write a list which includes the conquest in it. As a long term imperial guardsman player, I know how being outnumbered is a huge weakness in many cases.

Sure

pVlad -5
Conquest 20
Full Winterguard everything + joe 13
Full kayazy + ua 10
Greylord Ternion 4
Min Mechanics 2
Ragman
Saxon Orrick
Widowmaker Marksman or Kell Bailoch

39 Models

In steamroller I would pair it with my typical pIrusk list

pirusk
behemoth
wardog
Full Nyss + Valachev
Full Kayazi + UA
eEryriss
Gorman
The Bears
Lady A and Master H
Widowmakers
Marksman
37 models

I'd feel pretty confidant with the pVlad list. Conquest would be a legit assaination threat even with rat 4 under vlads feat, and S&P, like the behemoth is now. That list has alot of ranged firepower, and a few sources of magical attacks. You could also play and allow conquest to get hit first by an enemy heavy, then mess them up with rag man and S&P.

Kayazy and WGI are super legit with vlad.

[Natetehaggresar]

Nate, it's seems like you want to be able to scrap one in a single activation. Don't you think that these should be something that takes more than 2 jacks going all out on to kill in one turn? For the points and size, it has to be able to hold up to punishment for more than a turn or no one will dish out $135 for it outside of painters.

Its not that I want them to be weak. In this game a models that are buffed and fully supported by a caster can normally kill an equal number of points especially when their targets are unbuffed. In all of the above examples, we have some examples of the highest damage capacity models in the game, ideally buffing models to take out single high arm targets, and just barely doing it with more points, or coming up short, under ideal conditions where they never miss an attack, get the highest random focus possible. Don't have their systems crippled by conquests guns on the way in, and two or more heavies get the charge in on conquest on the same turn.

In a real game its essentially if Conquest just walked forward and let them charge him, and he still lives, and depending on what his weapon load out is and where the damage falls kill one or more heavies.

I'll be the first to complain about overbalanced new releases since mark 2 hit, and I'm ready for PP to start releasing some crack back into the game. But arm 23+ with ~70 hit points in an auto include, unless, like a devastator, conquest is real weak on offense, and thats not what I want him to be.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Hmm interesting. I get a feeling that much of your list which isn't a conquest could get eaten by Cavalry and AOE's. but i dont like much theorycrafting like that.

My main point in asking you to do this was wondering. Your main point is that you can bring sufficient force to take down a conquest if you want. My thinking a Conquest takes up so much space in the list, what if the enemy force was free to use that force against it?

[Natetehaggresar]

Hmm interesting. I get a feeling that much of your list which isn't a conquest could get eaten by Cavalry and AOE's. but i dont like much theorycrafting like that.

My main point in asking you to do this was wondering. Your main point is that you can bring sufficient force to take down a conquest if you want. My thinking a Conquest takes up so much space in the list, what if the enemy force was free to use that force against it?

I'm sorry, but again I don't quite understand your question.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Nevermind. Im typing in lectures at the moment :P

[x3tsniper]

So do we really think that the Colossal will be strength 12? I would think that they would be stronger than the average jack.

Should at minimum be strength 13. Bronzeback is strength 13 and he isn't a colossal. ><

[Natetehaggresar]

I honestly expect that the colassals will share their stat line with a factions basic chassis. (I have no basis of knowledge for this). I then expect them to be made unique and worth their points through a combination of, rules generic to colossals, massive damage grid, powerful weapon systems, and special rules unique to each colossal.

In conquests case I expect 3 good guns (possibly with sweet effects like "all models in aoe take x power hit") and open fists with bucklers (making arm 21). We might get lucky and get better pow then normal on open fists, or a special rule that makes his fists not lackluster versus hard targets.

Again I have no basis for these speculations other than my own opinion of what I would pay 20 points for, and a healthy respect for game balance paired with a hope that we can start getting some new releases I can be excited for. I know some people don't miss mark 1, but back then I found new releases to be more exciting, though the game is better balanced now.

[PG_Caecus Scius]

any reason this guy wouldn't be higher arm and lower def than standard... I mean all colossals for that matter. +2 arm over faction base and -2 def. Cygnar would be a 10/20 and ours would be a 8/22. I hope to god the menoth one can't be choired to not shoot it, but knowing what I know- it probably can.

I hope it has 2 pow 19 fists, with a strength of 15 for very good throws and slams. I hope the main gun is a huge AOE, 4 or 5 without being a focus hog. The other guns are probably going to be just fire and forget weapons that aren't much to write home about... just something you also fire.

It will probably get to shoot and melee or make power attacks all in the same turn.

I hope it is not just very plain without cool special rules other than the colossals rules- but again I am probably wrong.

[x3tsniper]

I hope it is not just very plain without cool special rules other than the colossals rules- but again I am probably wrong.

We already know the kraken has a special rule, so I assume they will all have some special shenanigans. Granted that is cryx. ><

[Peri]

I hope it can bulldoze, and stomp with tremor for knocking down models in 2". beatback on the fists would be nice too.

[Crazy Uncle Doug]

Also, I'm hoping Conquest has a built-in whiskey still.

[ScottEBJJ]

Also, I'm hoping Conquest has a built-in whiskey still.

Things we do know as of now.

-19pts
-62 boxes
-Every gun is an AoE
-Crit Dev on the main guns
-Possibly Covering Fire of some sort.

[Crazy Uncle Doug]

Ah. My life is one of bitter disappointment!