Ironfang Pikeman/Black Dragon Situations

[digitalrob]

What situations/builds would you pick either:

-Ironfang Pikeman (classic unit)
OR
-Ironfang Pikeman (Black Dragons)

And why?

[OMM_Lukav]

I think Black Dragons work well for scenarios, especially when you need to take and hold. I double especially if I have an Iron Flesh caster and I need to hold a point.

I think when I am playing offensively, or reinforcements, I will pick classic IFP.

[OMM_Lukav]

Double Post

[scout's honor]

I decide based on Relentless Charge vs Precision Strike. The feats make a difference as well, but for me those are the key abilities.

[Havock]

Do you need something with pathfinder? Do you need to lock up gunlines?

[scout's honor]

Do you need something with pathfinder?

I always want at least one unit with Pathfinder in my lists, and I don't always can or want to bring Saxon Orrik - and only a minority of our casters can hand out Pathfinder to infantry.

[Marth]

If I need them to take care of enemy heavies specifically/reliably, I go BDIFP. If I need them as a back-bone, opportunist threat to have around, I take the regulars.

If I have the points, I take both.

[Havock]

I always want at least one unit with Pathfinder in my lists, and I don't always can or want to bring Saxon Orrik - and only a minority of our casters can hand out Pathfinder to infantry.

Then if you have nothing else, normal IFP would be the best choice. Though given that you only need to have the UA with BD stuff, you could simply get the UA twice and swap when required/wanted. BDIFP looks good under the Old Witch. She can movement shenanigan them and between her control stuff and the IFP's reach + crit KD you can give your opponent one hell of an headache concerning his mobility

[DemonCalibre]

It's a choice, I personally think Normal Fangs have the advantage that path finder on the charge reduces the number of things i need to worry about with them. Is there a Wall I gotta cross no problem.

If I have Path Finder covered(I already have Saxon, or am playing old witch, or am running Nyss), I would reach to black dragons, Precision strike is pretty strong as it always allows you to kill a Jacks Cortex, or blow out a mind system or a spirit system, Fearless is superior to CMD10 with a reroll, and It's really starting to click for me how much better defensively Zeal is to Defensive Formation(being able to spread out against auto fire AOE, and still retain armor 18 is pretty nice). Defensive formation is better for when your making combat, rather then Zeal which is better for Bridging combat.

[Yronhand]

For faster games, the regular UA. For a protective anchor (scenario or caster screen) the BDIFP. But if you've got the points and list to support it, get both for their different roles.

[Joasht]

Though given that you only need to have the UA with BD stuff, you could simply get the UA twice

I'm curious, whats the official stance on "how much the BD's need to be represented"?
Technically it is a Black Dragon "unit attachment", so does this mean that having 10 normal IFP + a BD UA is sufficient? Frankly I don't think anyone would have issues with it, but I'm just curious with the stance as I surely don't intend to buy another 10 IFP anytime soon.

[DemonCalibre]

Jen, said the only thing that has to be Blacked Dragoned is the UA(So the Flag, and the Shield on a UA Blisters)

Basic Iron Fangs, with Black Dragon Shields or without are Iron Fangs.

[Joasht]

Haha thats awesome! I was going with that anyway, glad to see its also officially acceptable.

[gliep]

Haha thats awesome! I was going with that anyway, glad to see its also officially acceptable.

Well. That is not compleatly true for Steamroller 2012 tournaments.
If you want to play BDIFP all of the IFP must have the BD-shields on them.
Without the Attachement they are still IFP, but you are not allowed to mix them up.

[scout's honor]

Well. That is not compleatly true for Steamroller 2012 tournaments.
If you want to play BDIFP all of the IFP must have the BD-shields on them.
Without the Attachement they are still IFP, but you are not allowed to mix them up.

Eh?

I'm pretty sure the SR2012 conversion rules beg to differ:
"Lastly, in the case of unit attachment or weapon attachment upgrade, the model(s) that use the upgrade stat card must follow these rules to be legal for tournament use, but the base unit follows the standard conversion policy for warrior model conversions, above. For example, a Black Dragon Officer & Standard must always use the Black Dragon upgrade stat card and an Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard must always use the Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard stat card, but an Iron Fang Pikemen unit without a UA uses its standard stat card whether or not they have Black Dragon shields (or any other reasonable conversion)."

[Adurot]

I did not know they'd added that in there, sweet. Going to have a full unit with black dragon shields anyways as I plan to run a full unit of each.

[gliep]

Eh?


I'm pretty sure the SR2012 conversion rules beg to differ:
"Lastly, in the case of unit attachment or weapon attachment upgrade, the model(s) that use the upgrade stat card must follow these rules to be legal for tournament use, but the base unit follows the standard conversion policy for warrior model conversions, above. For example, a Black Dragon Officer & Standard must always use the Black Dragon upgrade stat card and an Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard must always use the Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard stat card, but an Iron Fang Pikemen unit without a UA uses its standard stat card whether or not they have Black Dragon shields (or any other reasonable conversion)."

Ok. Obviously there has been a positive change to the policy i remembered. But i'm still a little unsure because of the bold part.

[scout's honor]

It's been hashed out quite thoroughly when the Black Dragons were released: all that matters is the UA.

IFP without BD shields, either without UA or with regular UA: regular IFP
IFP without BD shields, with BD UA: BD IFP
IFP with BD shields, either without UA or with regular UA: regular IFP
IFP with BD shields, with BD UA: BD IFP

Or in short: unless the unit has the BD UA, they're always regular IFP; if they do have the BD UA, they're always BD IFP.

[DemonCalibre]

Well. That is not compleatly true for Steamroller 2012 tournaments.
If you want to play BDIFP all of the IFP must have the BD-shields on them.
Without the Attachement they are still IFP, but you are not allowed to mix them up.

This is incorrect, PPS_Jen(Director of Organised play) said strait up, that only the UA needs the shields, the rest of the shields are not required(i.e. Fangs are Fangs regardless of shields, the Flag and the shields on the UA is what makes them Black Dragons)

[TheButchersHound]

Just a question, I noticed today that the BDIFP Blister is listed as Privater Exclusive. Does that mean it has to be ordered directly from PP or can my local game store get it through the regular channels. Would suck if it was direct only cause you pay horrendous fees for shipping to Germany.

[Frege]

I had a lot of initial hype about Black Dragons. Precision Strike is cool; mini feat is pretty awesome for either spread out ARM 18 or shield walled ARM 22s. But at the end of the day I don't really find single wound high arm models all that impressive - especially on a unit that often ends up in combat with Jacks/Beasts who can all boost.

Precision strike is good. I just find that if I give the IFP a damage buff (battle lust or fury) then they just wreck the jack/beast anyway.

So I've concluded that standard IFP are almost always better. Movement 'tricks' can be gamewinning and pathfinder on the charge as standard is really nice!

[digitalrob]

Wow glad this was pointed out about the UA

[Tico Love]

Just a question, I noticed today that the BDIFP Blister is listed as Privater Exclusive. Does that mean it has to be ordered directly from PP or can my local game store get it through the regular channels. Would suck if it was direct only cause you pay horrendous fees for shipping to Germany.

Ask your Game Store Owner. The guy at my shop told me he could order it for me if I asked him to, but he wouldn't carry it otherwise.

[Joasht]

This idea came to me today, and I'm not sure if its been mentioned before in some other thread, but I was thinking;

Black Dragons would work well with Doomreavers.

I've always been a huge fan of doing my Khador army in waves, and I can see the Black Dragons working well as either the front to deliver Doomreavers (BD's are Fearless, so Abomination means nothing to them) or as a wave behind them (this assumes something else, e.g. MoW ST's are the front line). The big issue with the "single Doomreaver unit" IMO is the fact that it gets absolutely murdered by guns, so you could use the BD IFP's as part of a delivery vehicle for them to keep them safe.

It might be a playstyle preference of mine though....

[Bruce_Legend]

One word for shield problems: Magnets.
As the previous threads stated you don't need the unit to have shields, just the UA, but it still nice when everything matches IMO.

I would think the Black Dragons would work well with any caster with extra manoeuvrability, but I suppose it comes down to what you want them to do.
If you want to rush a objective or tie up opponents in their board half then the standard UA is good, but if you want a standard speed screen then the Black Dragon's are better.

@Joasht as you will probably want to be running the Doomies each turn to get them into a good position I would probably say that the normal UA would be better, as you could pop feat on the second turn for an effective shield wall run to keep up with them.

[Joasht]

@Joasht as you will probably want to be running the Doomies each turn to get them into a good position I would probably say that the normal UA would be better, as you could pop feat on the second turn for an effective shield wall run to keep up with them.

I see your point and with the standard regular IFPs probably won't fail their Ld barring horribad dice, but as a side note I have a tendency to not shield wall anyway unless I was facing a lot of AoEs or POW 10 weapons. I'll never call Shield Walling a "trap" as some have said, but its certainly situational.

[Havock]

This idea came to me today, and I'm not sure if its been mentioned before in some other thread, but I was thinking;

Black Dragons would work well with Doomreavers.

I've always been a huge fan of doing my Khador army in waves, and I can see the Black Dragons working well as either the front to deliver Doomreavers (BD's are Fearless, so Abomination means nothing to them) or as a wave behind them (this assumes something else, e.g. MoW ST's are the front line). The big issue with the "single Doomreaver unit" IMO is the fact that it gets absolutely murdered by guns, so you could use the BD IFP's as part of a delivery vehicle for them to keep them safe.

It might be a playstyle preference of mine though....

Looks like an eIrusk setup there.

[SuperTheBoss]

This idea came to me today, and I'm not sure if its been mentioned before in some other thread, but I was thinking;

Black Dragons would work well with Doomreavers.

I've always been a huge fan of doing my Khador army in waves, and I can see the Black Dragons working well as either the front to deliver Doomreavers (BD's are Fearless, so Abomination means nothing to them) or as a wave behind them (this assumes something else, e.g. MoW ST's are the front line). The big issue with the "single Doomreaver unit" IMO is the fact that it gets absolutely murdered by guns, so you could use the BD IFP's as part of a delivery vehicle for them to keep them safe.

It might be a playstyle preference of mine though....

I've never used the Black Dragons, but I've done this a lot with regular IFP and had a lot of success with it.