Everblight to Menoth: A beginners questions.

[FeralJim]

Hey guys,

I'm considering picking up Menoth as a sister faction to go alongside my Legion.

I've gone through their Forces book a couple times and definitely like what I see.

Here are the conclusions I've come too so far. Please don't be afraid to correct me if I've got something wrong!

Vanquishers make great replacements for Ravagores (Take Roven if you really need to hit Stealth, who is basically your average 2 point support solo plus 2 buffed up 1 point Knights... is he considered good? I like him).

What's a good replacement for Scytheans as your Heavy Beatstick? I'm not seeing anything that really strikes out at me on that one. Reckoners and Templars seem the best choices here but compared with Scytheans they seem a bit lacking to me for 8 points.... I'm brand new to Warmachine though so I can't be sure.

The Avatar is fantastic. For 11 points he is just incredible.

pSeverius is awesome. He seems like one of the most well balanced 'casters in the entire game. With his spell load out I could see him running pretty much anything.

Eye of Menoth is a better version of pVayls Incite. His other spells are rock solid too, with Vision probably the worst of the bunch just because it's so easy to negate. They don't even have to damage to wipe it and the faction has Low DEF so that one might not actually be worth casting.

His feat is pretty cool too but suffers badly from Mohsar Syndrome. Against Hordes it just becomes pretty meh. I guess you don't field him against Hordes then yeah? Who's a great Anti-Hordes Protectorate caster to pair him with?

Errants with Seneschal + UA seem like a stronger and more well rounded take on Legions Strider Module. Stick Defenders Ward and EoM on them and I'm sure they become a real pain in Scenario Play.

The Same goes for Flameguard + UA. +1 SPD, +1 DEF, Shield Wall, Cont Fire and Terror > Legionnaires. Especially with such easy access to DW. Jam Jam, Jam on Toast!

Zealots seem pretty powerful. I guess one idea with them would be to jam your opponents, mini-feat if needed, if not pop it next turn and then bomb into all your own combats? Nice. Rat 7 POW15s under EoM. Woo!

Vilmon + Paladins are a bit match up dependent, but if your opponent lacks ways of dealing with them (Legion without Hex Hunters for example) they could be seriously disgusting. In some ways the stance is even better than Incorporeal because you can run them up the board, free strike people and still be immune. Damn!

Also Vilmon? *** where they thinking seriously? MAT 9 POW15 WPN MASTR with Reach? I guess his a 3pt solo with only 5 health but holy Menoth that seems strong.

Knights Exemplar are okay. They don't seem anywhere near as good as Bane Thralls even without the Banes amazing UA/Tartarus combo. They compare alright alongside Legions Swordsmen with Bond of Brotherhood but imo they should really have Reach, POW12s or something for their cost and fragility. They don't really seem worth taking when our other Infantry is so good. Why not Zoidberg? (or Errants).

Stuff I'm unsure on: Heirophants, Monks and Mechaniks all seem pretty meh. Compared with the other Warmachine Factions Mechaniks the Menoth ones seem pretty average. Monks could have potential as annoying DEF 17 charge blockers but they really needed Acrobatics to get my vote. Heirophants... just seem bad. I look at Legions Succubus or Cygnars Squire and they seem so much better. Have I got it wrong here?

Finally, who would you say are the top #3 Competitive Warcasters for Protectorate and what do they normally like to run in Masters-type events. Infantry, Jacks, Mixed, Shooting, Melee, Combined Arms?

Thanks for any help you can provide everyone!

My local meta have this wierd idea that Menoth are way down the totem pole of powerful factions. I've heard several of them say they are worse than Mercanaries, which would mean in their opinions they are dead last. I just don't see it. Menoth seems awesome! I can't wait to prove everyone wrong.

[Fish76]

I have the opposite problem, I'm getting a little Legion army together to be my Hordes faction.

I can't really argue with any of your logic, you seem to have a handle on what does what. You are a little low on our heavies, you may not be considering them with our really, really, super support (really!). In fact, I don't see any mention of Choir or Vassals. These are KEY to making Menoth work.

So Reckoner, Vanq, Templar and Avatar are better than the first appear. And, yes, our Menofixer is every bit as blah as he seems.

[Errant_knight]

You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the faction so far except you missed a couple things. First of, the choir. It is what makes the Protectorate jacks shine. Unless you are running a single jack you will always want a unit(and sometimes even with one). 2nd the vassal. Whats better then one 4" flaming plate...2. They also help keep your jacks alive with enliven.

The Reckoner is widely considered to be our best jack because of all the abilities it brings to the table. Templars are fun, solid and hit pretty hard. With beatback and reach they can get to some akward places.

Vilmon hits like a ton of bricks and most opponents know that so will commit some serious resources to taking him out. If you do get him to charge he will put a serious hurt on anything.

Knights Exemplar are your basic heavy hitters. When charging they can usually scrap a jack or at the least render it farily useless.

One unit you left out that I think needs to be mentioned is the daughters. They are quickly becoming my new crutch, expically with Vindictus. +2 movement with pathfinder and defenders ward puts them at Def 17 and running 16" and acrobatics and anatomical prescision.

What makes all these heavy hitters shine IMO is the vessel of judgement. Having only one attack is meh so punishing your opponent for killing one by getting a free move and attack is sweet. Not only that it puts out a suprising amount of damage being able to boost everything at the cost of one damage. Also good against hordes with a 10" cleanse.

As for an anti hordes caster, that would be Reznik or Thyra. They both like to get the job done themselves.

The heirophant is all we got for a warcaster attatchment so I won't really compare cross faction(but yes you are right).

Allegients can be a lot of fun and can get up the board really fast. Best used for solo hunting.

eKreoss T4 is a solid list that a lot of people run(myself included). It is a list that people know but is still hard to counter.

Harby T4 is another one that is often used.

Psevvy like you said can run just about anything effectively.

Vindictus is seeing a rise in popularity as a great scenario caster in SR2012.

[Fish76]

Also, you skipped the lights, Repenter in particular is excellent for the points, and most of the others will find their place, too!

[Ghost_of_Rage]

Ashas been said above, you seem to have a pretty good grasp on the faction. Choir of Menoth is pretty well an auto-include into all of your lists as they make Protectorate jacks silly. The Vassal of Menoth is up there too with almost auto-includes (you can leave these guys at home sometimes, but most times you won't want to), as giving your jack an extra attack is great, and letting them move out of harms way when they get hit is amazing.

For jacks, you pretty much can't go wrong. As you have noticed, Avatar, Reckoner, Vanquisher and Templar are all solid. To add to this list, the Crusader is not a jack to be looked past, this thing wrecks face for only 6 points. The Repenter is also one of my favourite jacks in the game, for 4 points you get an 8" auto fire spray, which when used properly, can be the end of enemy warcasters and it's very focus efficient (usually only needing 1 focus a turn just to boost attack rolls for hitting prime targets).

As for our solos, you almost can't go wrong. You've noticed the Menofixer is just not great and you'd be correct. The Heirophant is actually pretty spectacular with the right caster. Give the Heirophant to any caster that loves slinging spells (Severius and Harbinger for example) and you have a staple support piece in your list. Vilmon and Paladins are just nutty, they hit like trucks and are incredibly difficult to remove from the table. Nicia just makes a mess of the opponents' army and is a fantastic flanking model.

Finally, for top 3 competetive casters, I'd say in no particular order would be Harbinger, pSeverius and eFeora with pKreoss just trailing behind (everyone knows the feat and can usually see it coming from a mile away, but it's still a powerful feat).

I really don't understand why your meta thinks Menoth is the worst faction in the game, my meta has the complete opposite attitude toward the faction, regarding Menoth, Cryx and Legion to be the power trio. The army is tricky to play, you have to master order of activiations to get all of the mileage out of your lists, and in saying that, you will probably lose your first few games with the army (which will probably just empower your meta's belief in their placement of Menoth) but when used properly you'll leave your opponents' forces scrapped and your opponent crying in frustration.

[Alzer]

I would also point out, it's hard to find a beatstick that can keep up with the Scythean for damage output in ANY faction. At least before applying buffs.

Also to reinforce "Look at the choir" that essentially means, add +2 Mat/Rat, and +2 Pow to every attack on all our warjacks, and that's just when you get to swinging. (And with pSevy might as well make that +3, Avatar swinging at Mat 11 for pow 22 )

Errants w/ Defender's Ward are just absurdly hard to deal with for most armies. Once their Arm is that level they're more or less immune to blasts, and standard infantry weapons cry while trying to hurt them. Their crossbows are solid, and charging a couple will take out a light or mess up a heavy.

Wracks and Heirophant are pretty popular with most casters, but pSevy gets really silly with them. Boosted Ashes to ashes, run the upkeeps, and still have a few points to hand one of his jacks (And our beatstick jacks are HUNGRY).

Menoth is hard to look at any unit in a void with, because we have some REALLY awesome buffs. By the time you get through dishing out all the goodies they're insane. Also many of those goodies are defensive. Check Exemplars with eKreoss, Gravus, and Covenant around for an idea of that.

[Flamepheonix182]

Just another note our buffs really help blast damage as well since they add to the dmg roll not the power. So a Choired Vanquisher shot will still be blasting at effective pow 9.

And I would like to add my support for the crusader. I love that guy with the choir you have a MAT 8 Pow 20 crit fire and Pow 16 with 1 more armour then the scythean. Sure I have less attacks but I have no problem throwing away a crusader to trade for your scythean and I'll probably be in a much better position after the trade.

The Daughters are great too don't underestimate the power of acrobatics. you can just wreck important solos that the opposing player thought was safe behind enemy lines.

As for Rhoven and co for dealing with stealth I've never really felt I needed them. We have so many sprays and blasts that I can just lob blasts at them till they are dead (its cloud that are the bigger problem depending on caster)

[regleant]

Hey guys,
What's a good replacement for Scytheans as your Heavy Beatstick? I'm not seeing anything that really strikes out at me on that one. Reckoners and Templars seem the best choices here but compared with Scytheans they seem a bit lacking to me for 8 points.... I'm brand new to Warmachine though so I can't be sure.
[/B]

You can't just compare options across factions to say whether a model is usable or not, you need to compare to options within the faction you're using. For example:

You rarely calculate damage from jacks without Choir. With that said, take a 6-pt Cruader +2-pt Choir at effective Mat 8, P+S 20 with 4 attacks that have critical fire and open-fist P+S 16, that dominates an 8-pt Scythean with Mat 6, P+S 17 with 7 attacks.

Assuming your typical Arm 20 Khador Jack:
Crusader: 4 (attacks) * 7 (damage) + 1 (attack) * 3 (damage) = 31 damage
Scythean: 7 (attacks) * 4 (damage) = 28 damage

Of course, the Crusader lacks Reach.

Similarly, Hierophant does look bad compared to other factions' options, but it's the best we got and commonly used.



Most of the other stuff people mentioned I can agree with. Vilmon really is more situational and tends to move too slow to be immediately useful. e.g. you can't move then attack. You have to move then stance. Or stance then attack. And he only gets one attack. The Exemplar Seneschal is more useful with his 3 attacks at the same points.



Also be ready for the change to focus. You need to decide at the beginning of your turn how much focus to give each jack, OR if you want to cast spells. You can't do both. You can't heal jacks. You are in a much more constrained environment, and you will allocate focus that goes unused.

Having gone the other way (from Menoth to Legion), the one thing that cannot be stressed enough is terrain. Menoth HATES terrain. Paladins in full plate and widows are not fans of trees and bugs, and are readily stopped by needing to hop over a fence. Also, going to the Fury mechanic is pure FREEDOM. I don't even know how I ever won with Warmachine, now.

[Circle noob]

menoth is the faction of awesome sauce!!!
in my meta i m pretty succesful when fielding my fanatics! i only play three different casters, p-sev , pKreoss and the high reclaimer. out of 10 games i usually win about 8. so saying menoth is weak is simply wrong.
though p-sev feat is better against warmachine it is far from useless against hordes. especially circle needs to cast spells. druids just loose after his feat. magic is not a small part of this game. though not the biggest either. however he has eye of menoth, one of the best spells in the game. it makes everything better. if he goes on tour, bring his personal arc node, blessing of vengeance, a hierophant (you wanna cast ashes to ashes) and wracks. extra focus to boost the damage rolls is always nice.

if you like vilmon, you also gotta take a look at nicia. though she functions differently, she is in the same point costs. against normal single wound infantry she ll be able to take more of em out of in one go. and def 16 give her skinny butt survivalbility. being a weaponmaster helps her scratching heavy targets, but thats about it. she ll only scratch those. what makes her awesome is acrobatics and sprint. go for the kill, break through the enemy lines and tie up troops.

[Soulblighter]

I play both Protectorate and Legion and theres really no way you can compare Protectorate warjacks to Legion warbeasts. Legion Warbeasts are just so much better in almost every way. The Avatar is really the only warjack Protectorate has that's on the same level of awesomeness as a Carnivean or Typhon.

What sets Protectorate apart from Legion is that Protectorate has strong infantry units while Legion's infantry units are all fairly mediocre. Exemplar Errants are arguably the best infantry unit in the game right now and certainly way better than any infantry unit Legion has.

[Andross]

I have the opposite problem, I'm getting a little Legion army together to be my Hordes faction.

I can't really argue with any of your logic, you seem to have a handle on what does what. You are a little low on our heavies, you may not be considering them with our really, really, super support (really!). In fact, I don't see any mention of Choir or Vassals. These are KEY to making Menoth work.

So Reckoner, Vanq, Templar and Avatar are better than the first appear. And, yes, our Menofixer is every bit as blah as he seems.

The "Menofixer" is one point at the tail of your list that puts the Avatar's Arm, the Reckoner's Mace or sundry other disabled 'jack systems back on line 50% or so of the time. With five boxes and Iron Sentinel he can actually be difficult for people to kill if they're not paying attention to his stats (15/15 & 5boxes if B2B with a 'jack). He's not amazing but I'd call him more average than blah.

I play both Protectorate and Legion and theres really no way you can compare Protectorate warjacks to Legion warbeasts. Legion Warbeasts are just so much better in almost every way. The Avatar is really the only warjack Protectorate has that's on the same level of awesomeness as a Carnivean or Typhon.

What sets Protectorate apart from Legion is that Protectorate has strong infantry units while Legion's infantry units are all fairly mediocre. Exemplar Errants are arguably the best infantry unit in the game right now and certainly way better than any infantry unit Legion has.

This may be a slight expression of the higher flexibility of a beast using fury against a jack using focus (not the system but the upside of fury compared to the down side of focus) however, our jacks can and will wreck faces particularly with the proper casters. I will admit to some jealousy for a couple of the legion beasts, but I still wouldn't trade my Templars or Reckoners for any of them. The biggest issue with comparing a Protectorate jack to anything from another faction is that the Protectorate tends to focus a large amount of support on to a much smaller number of jacks, however that pair or trio of buffed heavies will put a serious hurt on things all out of proportion to the their points investment. Such is the nature of the Protectorate.

[Burninated]

I have been looking at Legion as a second faction also, so here are some observations I would point out.

You are probably used to running beast heavy with plenty of good fury management. For Warmachine Protectorate tends to run much more jack heavy than any other faction, however, no warmachine faction can run jacks as efficiently as Legion runs its beasts. With a few exceptions, I think we tend to run 2-3 heavies with maybe 1 of our efficient lights thrown in.

One important note is our jacks have no pathfinder and have no way of getting it! Things that generate rough terrain can be a major PITA.

We also have some great infantry. Errants are great, however I think they really need Defenders Ward to make them worth it. More and more I'm realizing how awesome zealots are. With all the infantry and support models we tend to bring in addition to our jacks, positioning can be tricky to make sure you don't block or jam yourself.

Order of activation is CRITICAL with Protectorate. We stack buffs, and often need spells to be cast at specific times in the turn to make them work the best. While order of activation can be important with other factions, it can make or break your game with Protectorate. Skorne is probably similar in this way, but we don't have many local Skorne players, so I don't really know.

We have a lot of denial and attrition abilities. Where Legion is like the glass cannon faction, Protectorate likes to tell its opponents NO! Someone said that we are 2nd best at everything which is pretty much true. You just have to figure out in which way you are stronger than each opponent and try to maximize that.

I think Protectorate has a big learning curve, but we really are one of the most well rounded factions, and certain casters/combinations can allow you to play in many different styles.

[Soulblighter]

I will admit to some jealousy for a couple of the legion beasts, but I still wouldn't trade my Templars or Reckoners for any of them.

The Reckoner I can get behind, since its pretty much the best non-character heavy warjack in the game. But I'd trade a Templar for a Scythean in a heartbeat. There's really nothing a Templar can do that a Scythean cant do way better.

[Alzer]

I'd make one argument in favor of the Templar over the Scythean. The Templar is decidedly tougher (3 higher arm, 2 more boxes) Throw in Enliven and defenders ward, choir buffs and well...Templar is one of the hardest to kill models in the game (Not QUITE Avatar level but up there, avatar can be "immune" to shooting and spells at the same time). Also the Templar after buffs will hit HARDER but not necessarily more.

[Soulblighter]

I'd make one argument in favor of the Templar over the Scythean. The Templar is decidedly tougher (3 higher arm, 2 more boxes) Throw in Enliven and defenders ward, choir buffs and well...Templar is one of the hardest to kill models in the game (Not QUITE Avatar level but up there, avatar can be "immune" to shooting and spells at the same time). Also the Templar after buffs will hit HARDER but not necessarily more.

To be fair though Everblight has similar buffs. Slap dragon's blood and spiny growth on a Scythean and its now ARM22. So I dont believe the Templar is that much tougher. Although Enliven is certainly an advantage, but one youre paying 2 extra points for as well.

[jandrese]

One big thing that hasn't been mentioned too much with Scythian vs. Templar is that with Choir support the Templar has +2 MAT over the Scythean. That's actually substantial if you are attacking DEF 12 or 13 heavy jacks/beasts. Basically, the Scythean is likely to waste an attack or two on whiffs, which is a real problem if you're trying to pull off bloodbath. You could boost your attacks, but that cuts into the damage output in a hurry.

As a Protectorate player, it is the to-hit buff I end up missing most of all when the Choir is not around. There's just a world of difference between MAT 6 and MAT 8.

Of course some Legion warlocks can buff the to-hit rolls of their beasts already, but every Protectorate caster has access to the Choir.

[Cacophonous]

Hey guys,
Vanquishers make great replacements for Ravagores (Take Roven if you really need to hit Stealth, who is basically your average 2 point support solo plus 2 buffed up 1 point Knights... is he considered good? I like him).

I think you'll be sorely disappointed trying to replace Ravagores, though I'm probably in the minority in this opinion.

In a game of inches, SPD5 + RNG14 is vastly superior to SPD4 + RNG10. Ravagores are used primarily in two roles: anti-infantry/solo, and assassins (especially with Lylyth2). Vanquishers, due to lack of eyeless sight and decreased range, are almost purely anti-infanty (and sometimes anti-solo, if you get that lucky 1 or 2 on scatter vs. stealth).

Also, Rhoven is great but only available in 1 list in SR2012, forcing reliance on lucky scatters against stealth.

For 8 points, I'd rather have a Reckoner or 4 Repenters, depending on the list. If you're looking at shooty infantry/solo-clearing options, 1 point more for the BE is a great deal.

[Fish76]

... He's not amazing but I'd call him more average than blah...

Choose your synonym: bland, average, vanilla, pedestrian, uninspired, mediocre, dull. Yes, even "blah".

Actually, that's charitable given that all the other 'mechanic' types are either half as expensive or have additional utility.

He's our only choice in that department, though, so it is what it is.

[jandrese]

I think you'll be sorely disappointed trying to replace Ravagores, though I'm probably in the minority in this opinion.

In a game of inches, SPD5 + RNG14 is vastly superior to SPD4 + RNG10. Ravagores are used primarily in two roles: anti-infantry/solo, and assassins (especially with Lylyth2). Vanquishers, due to lack of eyeless sight and decreased range, are almost purely anti-infanty (and sometimes anti-solo, if you get that lucky 1 or 2 on scatter vs. stealth).

Also, Rhoven is great but only available in 1 list in SR2012, forcing reliance on lucky scatters against stealth.

For 8 points, I'd rather have a Reckoner or 4 Repenters, depending on the list. If you're looking at shooty infantry/solo-clearing options, 1 point more for the BE is a great deal.

It's the Vassal that makes the Vanquisher great. Without the Vassal it is an expensive (but good) AoE with short range. With the Vassal it has basically double the damage output for only 2 more points, and probably edges out the Ravagore with the sheer amount of blast damage it is putting out. It's a 10 point combo, but totally worth it.

[Fish76]

What's the AOE on a Ravagore? The difference in area between a 3" and 4" AOE is pretty close to 5.5 square inches. That's a pretty substantial by itself.

[jandrese]

It is AoE 3, which is another reason I think the AoE is inferior. It is kind of like seeing a Destroyer on the other side of the table. You know it will shoot at you, but every turn it wastes sending a single lousy AoE 3 for its 9 point cost feels like a victory to me.

The Ravagore at least has auto-corrosion on the AoE. The auto-fire on the Vanq is better though.

[Cacophonous]

Finally, who would you say are the top #3 Competitive Warcasters for Protectorate and what do they normally like to run in Masters-type events. Infantry, Jacks, Mixed, Shooting, Melee, Combined Arms?

IMO:

• Harbinger
  
  Combined arms. Very well rounded.
  
  Reference
  dicegod wins Aus Nat'l (posts from gearloop & dicegod really informative)
  gearloop rocks the socks with Harbinger
  
  
• Vindictus
  
  Solo spam + Zealots + weapon master units.
  
  Reference
  JBFlanz goes undefeated w/ Vindictus at GenCon
  More explanation from JBFlanz
  dicegod wins Oz Super Series 2011
  
  
• Severius1
  
  Shooty jack spam!
  
  Reference
  Phatasian wins Mayham Cup 2011
  JBFlanz w/ Severius @ Gencon
  dicegod wins Oz Super Series 2011

[Cacophonous]

What's the AOE on a Ravagore? The difference in area between a 3" and 4" AOE is pretty close to 5.5 square inches. That's a pretty substantial by itself.

Which is great for infantry, as stated previously, but helps none whatever against solos and casters (you will still miss on 3+ deviation distance).

The Ravagore at least has auto-corrosion on the AoE. The auto-fire on the Vanq is better though.

Incorrect - ravagore's AoE attack causes continuous fire; the AoE it leaves behind causes 1 auto-point (corrosion I believe).

[Hashmal]

Welcome to the True Faith! I'll chime in with my own insights, trying not to be terribly redundant with everyone else.

Vanquishers make great replacements for Ravagores (Take Roven if you really need to hit Stealth, who is basically your average 2 point support solo plus 2 buffed up 1 point Knights... is he considered good? I like him).

Yes and no. The Vanquisher is a great AoE boat, but isn't as long-ranged as the Ravagore. He compensates by being a bit more rugged and more powerful in melee once the Choir enters into it. Plus, with a Vassal (as jandrese pointed out), he becomes a firestorm. With a 4" AoE, he rarely cares about auto-missing Stealth.

That's important for the second point. Rhoven is very ish - he'd be better as two 2-point options. Rhoven's abilities are all special actions, so prevent his bodyguards from charging and doing what they do best. His abilities are decent, with Menoth's Sight being the reason you took this unit in the first place. Stealth sniping is usually more useful on the Reckoner - with Assault, you have 20" to slap that Lord of the Feast/BLT right out of the park. Rhoven is good if you can use stealth sniping. I take him in few lists, but he's gold in the ones I do.

What's a good replacement for Scytheans as your Heavy Beatstick? I'm not seeing anything that really strikes out at me on that one. Reckoners and Templars seem the best choices here but compared with Scytheans they seem a bit lacking to me for 8 points.... I'm brand new to Warmachine though so I can't be sure.

As others have said, apples and potatoes. The Scythean is a fantastic beast and is hard to match, point per point, in any faction. Menoth beatsticks include the Reckoner, the Templar, the Crusader as a cheap-yet-slow option, and the soon-to-be-released Sanctifier. The Vanquisher is a back-up beatstick. The Castigator, owing to no reach and a low initial P+S, is generally seen as inferior to other options in this bracket. The Guardian is seen as too expensive, with nothing special aside from an arc node that is easy to negate.

The Avatar, imo, is better than any character 'jack or 'beast in the game.

Eye of Menoth is a better version of pVayls Incite. His other spells are rock solid too, with Vision probably the worst of the bunch just because it's so easy to negate. They don't even have to damage to wipe it and the faction has Low DEF so that one might not actually be worth casting.

Try this with Vision: arc onto a 'jack that's engaged. Walk away. Vision eats the free strike. Go about your turn.

Who's a great Anti-Hordes Protectorate caster to pair him with?

Thyra is definitely angled more towards Hordes-fighting than Warmachine, but I'm not sold on her competitiveness, much as I like playing her. Harbinger remains a strong scenario denial 'caster with spells that any army hates. Feora2 is much the same, plus she's immune to Lylyth2 (not that the Protectorate fears Lylyth all that much). Vindictus works well against any army struggling to deal with infantry spam. Testament negates Baldur1's feat, which makes him my favorite since I'm just bad against Circle.

Also Vilmon? *** where they thinking seriously? MAT 9 POW15 WPN MASTR with Reach? I guess his a 3pt solo with only 5 health but holy Menoth that seems strong.

He's a shadow of his former self. He used to get D3+1 initial attacks. Still very good. That one attack hurts, though.

Knights Exemplar are okay. They don't seem anywhere near as good as Bane Thralls even without the Banes amazing UA/Tartarus combo. They compare alright alongside Legions Swordsmen with Bond of Brotherhood but imo they should really have Reach, POW12s or something for their cost and fragility. They don't really seem worth taking when our other Infantry is so good. Why not Zoidberg? (or Errants).

Bane Thralls are straight-up better, but we don't get those. The KE's MAT 7 is a boon, though. You take them if you want an infantry unit that can flip light 'jacks/beasts or (with some MAT assistance) absolutely wreck lighter heavies. They're not terrifically expensive. I personally get a good amount of mileage out of them. I'd also note that the KE and the Errants serve two different functions. Errants are tarpitting jack-of-all-trades models. They can put a decent hurt on a light, clog lanes, and be generally annoying. KE can threaten heavy targets. It all depends on what you want your units to do.

Stuff I'm unsure on: Heirophants, Monks and Mechaniks all seem pretty meh. Compared with the other Warmachine Factions Mechaniks the Menoth ones seem pretty average. Monks could have potential as annoying DEF 17 charge blockers but they really needed Acrobatics to get my vote. Heirophants... just seem bad. I look at Legions Succubus or Cygnars Squire and they seem so much better. Have I got it wrong here?

Monks are a 2pt anti-solo beatstick. I don't fit them into many lists, but they are fun. I agree that they're a bit middle of the road. Mechaniks are the one point you'll throw in to top your army off. They'll inevitably fail their skill check, then die - or your 'jack will. So it goes. The Hierophant, compared to other options within factions, leaves much to be desired. Two things, though: one, he is our focus management attachment and we don't get a Succubus or a Squire, so those types of comparisons are moot to deciding whether or not to pick him up. Second, he stacks with Wracks. Protectorate Warcasters can get two free focus a turn for spells. That is not bad by half.

Finally, who would you say are the top #3 Competitive Warcasters for Protectorate and what do they normally like to run in Masters-type events. Infantry, Jacks, Mixed, Shooting, Melee, Combined Arms?

You'll find that most top players favor combining what they can for solid armies that favor attrition over out-and-out assassination. Protectorate lists vary quite a bit. I personally feel our top 3 'casters are Harbinger, Severius1, and Feora2. That said, I think the Protectorate has a number of interesting 'casters that are powerful in many different ways - I'm a personal fan of Severius2.

My local meta have this wierd idea that Menoth are way down the totem pole of powerful factions. I've heard several of them say they are worse than Mercanaries, which would mean in their opinions they are dead last. I just don't see it. Menoth seems awesome! I can't wait to prove everyone wrong.

Mental note: I should go play in Australia.

[Lanz]

In so far as the considerations of Reckoner, Ravagore, Vanquisher and Scythean;

There are no Ravagores and Scytheans in Protectorate. The Reckoner is both your Scythean and your Ravagore combined, which is why its so popular. Assault on a range 12 with speed 5 is a 20" threat range, same as a Ravagore, and after choir buffs the Reckoner is also a POW15. Unlike the Ravagore, however, the Reckoner is a brutal melee combatant at PS19 MAT 8 and can contribute its assault for both more damage and a further accuracy debuff, making a Reckoner a tremendously accurate model, both capable of easily reaching a MAT 10 equbilant as well as providing buffs for other models as its flares will aid any other models in their accuracy as well, both at range and melee.

As for the Vanquisher, there is no comparison for it in Legion either. It's tempting to compare it to the Ravagore, but the Ravagore has an bigger threat range than a vanquisher, and its deadliness comes more its role as an eyeless-sight sniper. The Vanquisher, on the other hand, has more limited range, but more power (after choir) against single targets. What's more important, however, is that it gets 2 shots after a vassal and has a big 4" aoe that sets everything on fire. It's anti-infantry potential is miles and away superior to a ravagore and its ranged damage output is better. Their melee output is pretty similar, with the Vanquisher having nearly half as many attacks and 2" less threat range, but with choir buffs. They may share many basic simularities, but the roles played by Vanquishers and Ravagores is very different. A Reckoner is used more similar to a Ravagore than a Vanquisher is, but a Reckoner can also pull the role of the Scythean. That's why the Reckoner is so popular. However, unlike a pair of Ravagores, a pair of Reckoners can't choke off the board and do much against infantry, which is why, in my opinion, Reckoner + Vanquisher is the dream team. Combined they have enough firepower to brutalize a lot of things in a single turn before they get into range, while both are also powerful in melee and their combined strengths give you an answer to every problem for 16 points.

[Andross]

The Reckoner I can get behind, since its pretty much the best non-character heavy warjack in the game. But I'd trade a Templar for a Scythean in a heartbeat. There's really nothing a Templar can do that a Scythean cant do way better.

Tanking, generally, also using beat back for some interesting threat angles. Using DW when needed gives you a 12/23 model with a ton of boxes that you can then stack choir, covenant and vassal buffs on. Stacking a few different buffs perhaps, but there are times were you just can't afford to have your heavy moved off a point.

I think you'll be sorely disappointed trying to replace Ravagores, though I'm probably in the minority in this opinion.

In a game of inches, SPD5 + RNG14 is vastly superior to SPD4 + RNG10. Ravagores are used primarily in two roles: anti-infantry/solo, and assassins (especially with Lylyth2). Vanquishers, due to lack of eyeless sight and decreased range, are almost purely anti-infanty (and sometimes anti-solo, if you get that lucky 1 or 2 on scatter vs. stealth).

Unless you get cute with the Vassal and run 8" and fire 10" but that can be corner-case. (Assuming no movement buffs. E-Feora ups the movement range by 2" obviously.)

Choose your synonym: bland, average, vanilla, pedestrian, uninspired, mediocre, dull. Yes, even "blah".

Actually, that's charitable given that all the other 'mechanic' types are either half as expensive or have additional utility.

He's our only choice in that department, though, so it is what it is.

I just don't view him with any of the negative connotations you've applied to him. He's useful for what he costs and for a faction with as methods for denying damage to our jacks as the Protectorate has, repairing what you take on the run in is nice sometimes. So...average.

[Soulblighter]

It is AoE 3, which is another reason I think the AoE is inferior. It is kind of like seeing a Destroyer on the other side of the table. You know it will shoot at you, but every turn it wastes sending a single lousy AoE 3 for its 9 point cost feels like a victory to me.

Yeah thats exactly why I dont like the Ravagore. For 1 point more the Carnivean gives you a better animus, better melee capability, and a ranged attack thats even more potent. Personally I think the Ravagore and Scytheans point costs should be swapped... the Ravagore definitely being the worst of the three.

[Lanz]

... and a ranged attack thats even more potent. Personally I think the Ravagore and Scytheans point costs should be swapped... the Ravagore definitely being the worst of the three.

I wonder about you sometimes. Or maybe I just wonder about your meta.

[Fish76]

I just don't view him with any of the negative connotations you've applied to him. He's useful for what he costs and for a faction with as methods for denying damage to our jacks as the Protectorate has, repairing what you take on the run in is nice sometimes. So...average.

Fair enough. I DO use him, just last night he returned a crippled flail to a Templar. He is not a terrible use of a point. He just doesn't compare too favorably across factions. I think I'll break this out to a new thread actually...

[Soulblighter]

I wonder about you sometimes. Or maybe I just wonder about your meta.

Ill take a POW14 10" spray over a POW15 AOE3 any day. Its way easier to get a spray where you want it and sprays tend to hit way more models. Plus it has assault.

[Soulblighter]

Well its apparent you dont appreciate your spray attacks as much as I do. I guess thats why the Repenter has never really caught on even though its an amazing warjack.