Is PP moving too quickly ?

[Rhin0]

This is a little something i posted on my local forum, and thought i would share it with the PP world (as it is to do with them )

My original post --- > http://westgamer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=20208

This is just a little something I've been thinking of lately, and thought, i may as well express my thoughts, and see if others agree.

OK, so let's face the facts, 8th edition of Warhammer was the greatest thing to happen to PP.
The change in Warhammer left a lot of gaming veteran's feeling a little empty, and lost.

The new system was not what we had hoped for. It was this time that a lot of us looked to new things.
So I, like many others, jumped onto this new (yet old) system, that PP has offered us.
And the Exploding scene of Warmachine & Hordes was born.

I Personally didn't take to the game until about Feburary 2011, 6-7 months after the 8th edition release of WHFB.
By this time, the number of War Machine tables were starting to build already.

So, We flip forward about 2 months, I am just starting to get a hang of the game, and enter my first 2-3 tournaments.
Loving the system, its a really enjoyable rules set, and is amazing suited to competitive play.
Then, There is a release for War Machine, in the name of "Wrath".

This was a little unsettling for me. It was again something new, to a system, which was already quite new to me.
These large things, that go by the name of "Battle Engines" were, interesting.

I was unsure if PP were making the correct decision here. Going down the same sort of path, as my last beloved system,
bringing in larger and larger pieces to a game. And we all know how that panned out.

After the release of the Battle Engines, there was indeed a large sigh of relief when the gaming community realised
that these large models, were actucally balanced. And often, not your best option for 9pts.
To a smaller extent, that was even little rant pages on their forums (often ignored) about how "under-powered" they were.

So then, flip forward anoth 5-6 months, and the Hordes system also gets their Battle Engines,
The come in the new book, Domintation, which also adds 2 new casters each, and a few odds and ends to each faction.

Yet again, I am impressed with the fact, nothing looks overtly "over powered" or be "must haves".
Yet all things are interesting, and I would like to use / Play agasint all things in the book. (Even the Siege )

But flip forward just a few months. April. We are now at a stage where PP are looking at introducing the newest installment.
Colossals are fast approaching, and are already up on their web page. As is the coming book.
Where also at this stage, not all the Battle Engines (along with some other nice things) are even released yet.

I guess what I am getting at, is that it seems that PP are really running through their new releases.
I could even see in just over 12 months time, we could even be looking at MK III

I personally just feel like they needed to slow down these releases.
Give people some time to actually use some of the models that you "intend" on releasing (at some point...)
As these small changes can have an effect on local meta's (for example, Domination = more Skorne players locally)
Yet, in the Skorne releases, we are still missing, Raider, Engine, Character heavy.

Every book puts small subtle changes in local meta, and i don't believe we are "bored" of what the last 2 books have done yet.
We have hardly gotten a real experience of what some of the battle engines can do (I've only played against 2 of the engines so far)

As someone who was stung by change in a previous game system, I fear what too much quick change "may" do to this system,
but at the same time, looking at the last 2 books, I am confident, that PP will not make the same mistake.

Here's Hoping.

Anyone else feel the same way ?

Or do you feel PP are moving at a nice pace ?

[mauler78]

I feel the pace is a bit to fast. Since we are already talking about the next book to come out and the last ones to me still seem very fresh. The all the models are still not out from the last book, and we are already talking about the next book and what models we want from that.

It is almost like there is no time to acclimate to the new stuff before you are getting rammed with the next wave. Looking at it from a money perspective PP is releasing stuff faster then I feel comfortable buying it to keep up with the power curve. PP has gone to great lengths to steep the power creep in the latest books, but it will always be there.

I think they need to slow down just a little bit. Give us time to savor the new stuff, enjoy the flavor it adds to the game, and digest it a bit. There really is no need for PP to be gorging themselves, I think they have the better miniature game out there, and a solid enough player base that slowing it down is not going to hurt their bottom line, in fact it might improve it since people won't feel rushed to buy the next latest toy.

[Carnage]

They've actually been keeping the pacing of their releases fairly steady over the entire time I've played (since 2006)

[PG_kakita]

As what my fellow gamer likes to say 'We've had worries and fears about MK2 and Battle Engines. They turned out to be unfounded. I will put my trust in PP to do what's best for the game until they betray that trust.'

And they haven't yet.

[Andross]

This is fairly close to the standard release pattern for them. They seem to like having the tail end of one release mix in with the lead in models of the next release. You eventually get used to it, I will admit that once they started releasing expansions it took me a little while to get used to the idea that I would always be waiting for something to hit the shelves but it's actually fairly interesting as it means you almost never have a period of stagnation in your leagues and tournaments because people are always getting access to new things as you go along.

[DoktorVivi]

They've actually been keeping the pacing of their releases fairly steady over the entire time I've played (since 2006)

This. I think the biggest thing is that they introduced a new base size and are starting to explore that. I think their schedule is fine. There's a huge difference between an expansion book and a new edition of the game.

[PG_Azhdeen]

In two years, I've come into the game and coming up on the 2nd expansion; sounds like a nice good steady pace to me.

[jandrese]

It depends a lot on how much stuff you already have I think. A brand new person who only has the starter box for their faction these days has a huge hill to climb on their road towards total faction ownership (or even just getting the good stuff). Someone who has been playing sine 2004 and only buys new releases any more might be annoyed at how slow they are to come out.

[Watchtower]

I think PP has set a good pace.

[sourclams]

I think the complaint/concern is valid from a model production standpoint. Cygnar is going to have their superheavy warjack before they have their heavy warjack from the book released a year ago. It would be nice to see production actually be at least on par with releases.

It'd also be nice to see lamented units like Assault Kommandoes and Kossite Woodsmen get face-lifts (UA's) to bring them to a more playable level before we get even MOAR new units; this also helps a new player trying to prioritize their buying.

But in terms of game balance and power-creep, PP has been nothing like GW's 'it has been five years so you need to buy a brand new army' philosophy.

[DoktorVivi]

It depends a lot on how much stuff you already have I think. A brand new person who only has the starter box for their faction these days has a huge hill to climb on their road towards total faction ownership (or even just getting the good stuff). Someone who has been playing sine 2004 and only buys new releases any more might be annoyed at how slow they are to come out.

That's why you buy another faction!

*wallet weeps*

[ZeeWulf]

I started Warmachine in March 2010...what impressed me was that they released all the books for nearly every single faction in the same year!

From what I can tell, PP doesn't do this stuff halfway. Unlike certain game companies, you don't have to wait several years before you get to use a new model type that some other faction got, everyone gets it all. Sure, the model's not released right away often times, but, you know it's coming.

[NotInKansas1911]

I think the pace makes sense. Like with light/heavy warjacks they are releasing concepts and tests for battle engines and colossals (light/heavy giant units). I wouldn't be surprised, assuming rules sets for colossals are good, that next year's summer release/books will feature primarily battle engines and colossals or even character units of each. Mix in a couple of smaller anti-colossal units and I think it would be pretty sweet.

With the push to solidify rules for unbound scale games (something appealing to myself and many others who like larger scale games), this seems logical. I get that this isn't necessarily appealing to everyone, especially not those who like 25-35pt ranges, but there are only so many iterations of units they can make at that scale. Factor mercenaries/minions and combinations already feel pretty limitless. They need to craft new unit TYPES (battle engines, colossals, perhaps flying machines??) to really bring something new.

[DemonCalibre]

Some stuff I wanted to point out.

Privateer Press has never released a plastic kit for an existing model that did not have an upgrade kit, or a new model based on the core of that plastic kit.(as well as a upgrade kit)

All the first round of plastic jacks, got a new jack, and got character upgrade kits(two as a matter of fact)
All of the first round plastic lights got a new light.

What at least this implies to me is. We are going to see at least.
Caster3
Collossal
Character kit for Escalation Chassis Jacks(maybe even 2)
Second UA for new plastic units(Errants are plastic, and we got the Black Dragon UA, if you put two and two together with what i stated above it makes us think we are going to get plastic fangs, and an Errant/KE UA)
Frankly if that was all that came out I would be pretty happy, but I suspect that we are going to get at least one solo, and at least one light jack(maybe a character kit for the plastic lights)

The book frankly can't come out fast enough

[allistorpreist]

The pace is too quick when ever a book is announced. The second they start releasing models, the pace is too slow (Demolisher anyone?).

What finally broke a lot of GW players was not that they changed to quickly, but that their changes were always brutal. Suddenly any inquisitors in my Sisters of Battle army, or my Frateres Militia are no longer valid models. No matter how many collosals they make, my Ironclad is still a valid, useful model even if he is no longer on the A list.

That is my take anyway.

[Rhin0]

It's good that people haven't jumped over a small part of my post, and are taking it in as a whole.

Please don't think that, I believe MK III is just around the corner, or that i feel PP is going to eventually have "power" releases.

I'm pretty confident PP will make the right decisions,

Although, in a nutshell, I'm just thinking, they could let these latest releases "sink in" for another 3-6 months.

[Sergeant Bus]

I think the pace makes sense. Like with light/heavy warjacks they are releasing concepts and tests for battle engines and colossals (light/heavy giant units). I wouldn't be surprised, assuming rules sets for colossals are good, that next year's summer release/books will feature primarily battle engines and colossals or even character units of each. Mix in a couple of smaller anti-colossal units and I think it would be pretty sweet.

With the push to solidify rules for unbound scale games (something appealing to myself and many others who like larger scale games), this seems logical. I get that this isn't necessarily appealing to everyone, especially not those who like 25-35pt ranges, but there are only so many iterations of units they can make at that scale. Factor mercenaries/minions and combinations already feel pretty limitless. They need to craft new unit TYPES (battle engines, colossals, perhaps flying machines??) to really bring something new.

I couldn't disagree more. I was surprised when they announced Colossals but PP isn't interested in releasing models to create anything similar to Apocalypse. And there are so many options as it is that it will be a long time before it got boring if they didn't release new stuff for awhile. Unless your meta is dull and refuses to play anything but a single list. Units of Huge base models? not going to happen. I think it will be a good solid 4 years or so before a faction gets a second BE or Colossal.

But back to the OP. The release schedule is crazy but I think the guys that have been around for awhile have it right. I am still trying to catch up let alone keep up with PP's releases. But once I get there with my two factions I will only have 2-3 things to buy every two months. Sounds sweet.

-Sergeant Bus

[NotInKansas1911]

Although, in a nutshell, I'm just thinking, they could let these latest releases "sink in" for another 3-6 months.

The rest of wrath will be out when Colossals comes out and the only release from colossals will be the big guys and PERHAPS the casters. We'll have 3-6 months of playing with new shinies before major releases from the new book

[PG_Alviaran]

While the two book a year thing is new, PP kept up a pretty breakneck release schedule in MK1 too. And it was great. For one thing, it avoids a player sitting with no new toys, waiting for their army to be updated. We thought character jacks/epic casters would ruin the game. And then we thought cavalry would ruin the game. And then MK2. And then Battle Engines. And now Colossals. PP have never done us grievous wrong before. They don't seem to undertake these decisions lightly. So I put my faith in PP to do it right and for the betterment of the game. They have been right so far and it's why I own WAY too much for this game and don't see myself stopping anytime soon.

[Hansel]

It depends a lot on how much stuff you already have I think. A brand new person who only has the starter box for their faction these days has a huge hill to climb on their road towards total faction ownership (or even just getting the good stuff). Someone who has been playing sine 2004 and only buys new releases any more might be annoyed at how slow they are to come out.

Yeah, I'm new and it just seems that there is a massive amount of stuff. Battle Engines? And now Colossals? I'm not saying it's bad, but to a newbie, it's a lot, and I worry about boring people with 15pt games for a while until I get the hang of it and want to buy more models.

[Mod_Gemini]

The quick development keeps us all chomping at the bit, wondering what's next, and the constant updates keeps the tournament scene (and even the local scene) from getting stale. I love the pace that PP releases stuff at.

[PG_Alviaran]

Yeah, I'm new and it just seems that there is a massive amount of stuff. Battle Engines? And now Colossals? I'm not saying it's bad, but to a newbie, it's a lot, and I worry about boring people with 15pt games for a while until I get the hang of it and want to buy more models.

A lot of people are usually happy to. Vets like to take a break from the bigger games a lot of times and play something short and off the cuff. Not to mention, the community has always struck me as being a pretty friendly bunch. We recognize the future of our hobby is the new guy, so we want to help them get up to speed and become another regular at the shop. And I don't just mean us PGs who do this.

The biggest advice I can give to a new player tends to come down to:
-You are going to lose. A lot. Over time, you will find this happens less, but for now you are probably going to get your face caved in time and again.
-Do not be overwhelmed! Find those who really know your faction and they can help you get the staples you are the most likely to use all the time. You do NOT need to own your entire faction to be competitive.

[Tyr852]

Well July is 3 months away ^_^ , an expansion once a year is solid enough as people have said for older players that's only 3-4 models per faction to digest over the year , and who knows once the Colossi are released they might slow down to let everything settle.

[Flamepheonix182]

The pace is too quick when ever a book is announced. The second they start releasing models, the pace is too slow (Demolisher anyone?).

What finally broke a lot of GW players was not that they changed to quickly, but that their changes were always brutal. Suddenly any inquisitors in my Sisters of Battle army, or my Frateres Militia are no longer valid models. No matter how many collosals they make, my Ironclad is still a valid, useful model even if he is no longer on the A list.

That is my take anyway.

I agree with this. I had been creating a mercs army for warhammer for a while as a side project (and I know they werent popular but they were fun for conversion and such) then 8th edition comes out and suddenly I'm not even allowed to PLAY them anymore. Sure I get it they arent worth investing new models in by why not let me play with what you already have?

Anyways I've found myself wondering if the models are going to hit critical mass at some point where every army is so diluted with similar options. but I dont think it will be anytime soon since there are quite a few things to explore still.
(Just coming from a protectorate standpoint off the top of my head: Exemplar cinerators/bastion UA and solos, Tons of stuff to do with paladins: warcaster, Unit, maybe some mounted paladins, Daughters of Flame UA, Idrian solo, Mounted Idirians... anyways you get the idea)

[Flamepheonix182]

The pace is too quick when ever a book is announced. The second they start releasing models, the pace is too slow (Demolisher anyone?).

What finally broke a lot of GW players was not that they changed to quickly, but that their changes were always brutal. Suddenly any inquisitors in my Sisters of Battle army, or my Frateres Militia are no longer valid models. No matter how many collosals they make, my Ironclad is still a valid, useful model even if he is no longer on the A list.

That is my take anyway.

I agree with this. I had been creating a mercs army for warhammer for a while as a side project (and I know they werent popular but they were fun for conversion and such) then 8th edition comes out and suddenly I'm not even allowed to PLAY them anymore. Sure I get it they arent worth investing new models in by why not let me play with what you already have?

Anyways I've found myself wondering if the models are going to hit critical mass at some point where every army is so diluted with similar options. but I dont think it will be anytime soon since there are quite a few things to explore still.
(Just coming from a protectorate standpoint off the top of my head: Exemplar cinerators/bastion UA and solos, Tons of stuff to do with paladins: warcaster, Unit, maybe so mounted paladins, Daughters of Flame UA, Idrian solo, Mounted Idirians... anyways you get the idea)

[Darth_Fraggle]

I think I'll have to agree with everybody. I love the pace. I love the fact that there's a couple of books a year, and that there's a couple releases for one of my armies every few months. I am, however, leery about having a new unit type in every book. I think I would have preferred if they released a couple of books with battle engines before springing Colossals on us. I'd like to see more casters/solos/units that synergize with the already released battle engines and maybe even a second battle engine for everyone before the Colossals. That being said, I am unreasonable happy to see Colossals.

[sepher32]

1 Warmachine and 1 Hordes book each year seems perfect to me.

[Coinlord]

I disagree. Here's why. And yes, i will keep putting this same post on every single one of these threads that pops up.

1) PP is not GW. They respect their players and do their best to make their concerns addressed.

2) Nothing that people have screamed about being over powered and breaking the game has been over powered or broken the game. Cav, ranking officers, battle engines, (and i'm sure colossals will follow suit) are, at best, viable. And ridiculously expensive. They're an indulgence which you will never need to win a fair game. Don't confuse this with "If you were a better player, you could totally wreck face with a hand full of trenchers and a sick jibber jab!" No, like i said, they're viable and totally discretionary.

3) Colossals, as far as we know, will have a caster and colossal per faction. Even if they add a unit and solo at the last second, how can you argue that that's moving too fast? Because other models haven't been made yet? As has been stated in numerous places, the design-to-production schedule on any given model is extremely erratic and unpredictable. Would you rather have guaranteed releases on a yearly basis or the old "yeah, when we get to it, i guess we'll come up with something, but we're still working on this, kthx." ?

I respect your concern and commend you for not adding a negative connotation (rant) to it, but i assure you, in the six years i've been following privateer, near to nothing has gone awry, and i cant think of a single instance it wasn't corrected in good time.

Edit: 4) Unbound is optional and intended to be an odd game, 1 in 10 at best. Don't even start with point creep. I love 35 pts.

[OMM_Lukav]

The pace is fine, in fact a lot of people are a little annoyed (if the forums are at all accurate) that the pace is slowing down if the rumor that this book may really only introduce a 3e caster and the colossal. PP is trying to make a multi-dimensional game. This thinking like the commanders and generals of the WarmaHordes world would think and keeping pace:

What is a good counter to Infantry -> Heavy Infantry
What is a good counter to Heavy Infantry -> Calvary
What is a good counter to massed troops -> Battle Engines
What is a good counter to mass warjacks/beasts -> colossals
What is a good counter to colossal -> ???

I am annoyed that the plastic sets (Cygnar and Khador as of today) aren't ready...but honestly that is a small thing all things considered. I fully quit GW for PP and never regretted it. I love the direction they are heading and my only real complaint is i don't have a Conquest right now!

[rivenwyrm]

Yeah, I'm new and it just seems that there is a massive amount of stuff. Battle Engines? And now Colossals? I'm not saying it's bad, but to a newbie, it's a lot, and I worry about boring people with 15pt games for a while until I get the hang of it and want to buy more models.

I only started in the last year. It does seem like a lot, but so far I've seen a smattering of Battle Engines, the consensus is that they're mostly cool and work well but aren't revolutionary. Colossals are going to be a more intense test of their balancing skills, but I doubt I'll see more than two in my LGS over a 6 month period.

Don't worry about playing just 15pts, you gotta go at your own pace. If you're playing 15pts a lot and people get fidgety, time them and make them really fast. That'll keep the pace up so people know it won't drag on forever, plus it will make you a better player because you have to start remembering your stat lines and abilities, rather than re-reading your cards. It takes some time to get to that point, but you will, and once you start remembering stuff you get much better at remembering new stuff too.

[kay_dawg]

Models not out in the stores from Wrath/ Domination and a new book on the way already. Moving to fast imo.

[PG_Tionas]

I don't fear dilution, only bloat, and PP seems to be tackling Bloat in a pretty fantastic way: Models have Niche utility and benefits with specific casters more than other. Those casters, too, are why I do not fear Dilution. Each caster changes the armies that they run significantly. Try running the Queen of the Broken Coast like you would Wraithwitch Denegrah, and you're going to be in a world of hurt. its just not viable. I think between UA's, solos, character units, weapon attachments, Heavy or Light Cavalry, and Alt UA's, that there are years of development left before I would even consider any single faction tapped out.

To the Original Post: I love the speed that they have going. Its almost too slow. Managing 11 "factions" worth of releases has got to be a bear, but it gets done. I get to have my releases for a book spread before and after the actual book, and get to have some good times figuring each model out with a pile of new casters or armies before something new comes out, regardless of base size, model type or anything else.

[rydiafan]

Models not out in the stores from Wrath/ Domination and a new book on the way already. Moving to fast imo.

But it's always been this way. Some models come out before a book and some after it, allowing a steady trickle of releases constantly. The books aren't tied to the models' release dates in an intimate "one big release drop" manner.

[AJ the Ronin]

But it's always been this way. Some models come out before a book and some after it, allowing a steady trickle of releases constantly. The books aren't tied to the models' release dates in an intimate "one big release drop" manner.

If anything this is the first time that when the book is released at least a third of its content is not already available.

[allistorpreist]

Also keep in mind that prior to Warmachine I was playing Sisters of Battle for Warhammer 40K. This means, for me at least, new releases comming to my army too often is just something I cannot grok. When your last new release was nine years ago, it changes your perspective on pacing.

As long as everyone gets a little each time, I am happy.

[Northern Ronin]

Even for me, someone hardly rolling in cash, I can pretty much keep up with every model I want out of my faction, and keep it all painted. Seems about the right pace to me.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Keep in mind that all clues point to the next book being one of the smallest yet. 4 releases per faction per year is certainly not too fast. Not even remotely.

[PG_Alviaran]

Keep in mind that all clues point to the next book being one of the smallest yet. 4 releases per faction per year is certainly not too fast. Not even remotely.

If it does end up with only four, it will be the smallest expansion book ever (Apotheosis still had five each). The only way one could be counter smaller is if one counts Prime MK2 which had just one jack each. But even then, you saw more releases that year with the faction books each bringing another caster, a light jack, a unit with UA or WA, and a solo or two? At least?

So yeah, not too fast. (Though I am hoping for more along the lines of 5-6 releases each)

[kaneblaise]

I, for one, wouldn't mind if they released more things a little less often. Instead of 2 books each year (1WM 1 Hordes), I'd like to see 6 every two years. Give a few more releases per book so I don't feel like I'm buying a pamphlet (like I did when I picked up FoH: Circle), and let those releases sink in a bit more before coming out with new things. That's my personal take on it, at least.

[PG_Menite Messenger]

I know some people have said it already but i have to agree,

This is not unusual! Ive been playing on and off since before Apotheosis, and its pretty much always been the same. New book announced before all models from previous book are out, by the time the new book is released, all odels from previous book will be out.

Almost every book has had a new unit type in it, and to date, none of them have been broken, the closest being MKI Cav.

Im sure in the future, the 2013 book will be announced before every single Collosal release has hit the shelves, but the steady trickle of models is a joy to behold.

The other concideration with regards how much stuff is still to be released, is that there have been some very well publisised production issues, and once these are cleared up once and for all, it may be that the "overlap" between releases and new books is lessened.

In short, they havnt got it wrong yet, have some faith, they know best what works for them, and they are VERY observent of the fan base's comments and attitude toward thier game, and for that i can only applaud them.

MM