Why are jacks better mat/rat than beasts?

[Sinsation]

So I know this may be a case of fluff != rules, but it seems like if we were going to go by fluff, beasts would be a higher mat/rat than jacks almost always, or at least, outside of uniques.

For instance, on one hand you have a crusader, a robot built using steam technology to do battle with a cortex, an old-school AI. On the other you have say, a shadowhorn satyr, a warbeast who is an aggressive, savage, natural fighter. Now if this were super advanced technology, I could see the machine being more accurate, but this is steampunk. Why would a natural fighter who likely has years of practice hunting have a worse MAT/RAT than a robot made by religious zealots using steam power?

Why are warjacks more accurate than beasts? Again, I could understand if these were highly advanced targetting systems and such, but from what I remember cortexes were just crude mechanical brains/AI.

[relasine]

A wizard did it!

[Dewbakuk]

Probably because beasts have so many advantages over Warjacks? The whole Focus vs Fury thing should answer that. The Jacks need a higher Mat/Rat to make their more limited options more reliable.

Honestly I have no idea, but my guess would be something along those lines.

[captainspud]

Because rules =/= fluff.

[Goldstep]

The RPG has warjacks (as opposed to labor jacks) using high end cortexes which are as smart as INT 8. Beasts, even natural fighting beasts, are still animals. Gorax, as an example is an INT 5.

And the warjack is made to be a WAR jack. I can see them being high quality fighting machines.


Until I really see how much difference it makes, I'll assume that low MAT beasts is fair and keep watch for reasons during the field test to doubt this assumption.

[Harwood]

Because the Warcaster controlling the Jack is linked to the cortex. So you're using a vetern mind who's not only practiced just as hard and has at least as must fighting experience, but also have magic to guide the attacks.

Game balance is due to the fury mechanic. Front loading fury is just crazy good.

[Blaque]

Probably because beasts have so many advantages over Warjacks? The whole Focus vs Fury thing should answer that. The Jacks need a higher Mat/Rat to make their more limited options more reliable.

Honestly I have no idea, but my guess would be something along those lines.

Those advantages not including ARM, MAT, RAT, wounds, PC, P+S, the ability to Shake-Off without your model still becoming relatively useless for a turn anyways and the fact they are mandatory for your army.

Fury is stronger then Focus, sure. I wonder if its that much stronger myself.

And stuff.

[Knight]

I consider beasts inferior to jacks. Flesh is flesh, no matter how much you wish to be carbon steel. I also got the feeling that 'jacks posses some kind of awareness, but are rather limited in the way of their of thinking, being machines of destruction.

[bouncymischa]

For instance, on one hand you have a crusader, a robot built using steam technology to do battle with a cortex, an old-school AI. On the other you have say, a shadowhorn satyr, a warbeast who is an aggressive, savage, natural fighter. Now if this were super advanced technology, I could see the machine being more accurate, but this is steampunk. Why would a natural fighter who likely has years of practice hunting have a worse MAT/RAT than a robot made by religious zealots using steam power?

Why can't steampunk technology be "super advanced technology"? The cortexes warjacks use are more sophisticated than pretty much any modern AI. Heck, they're more sophisticated than the sorts of drones and AI I see in near-future cyberpunk games like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk 2020.

Just because it runs on steam and gears -- and some kind of magical quantum mechanical computer -- doesn't mean it's not super advanced.

[Azurath]

Think about it this way. If a jack goes down, it can be repaired and brought back into fighting condition, and its experience continues to accumulate. If a beast goes down, thats it, you need a new beast.

If you ever watched Battlestar Galactica, its like the Cylons who resurrect, and therefore treat death as a learning experience, versus a human for whom death is the endgame.

This is at least how I would explain it fluff-wise. The warjack has likely been around longer, survived some losing fights, and gathered more experience. A beast, while being a natural fighter, in many cases aren't the beneficiary of the same level of training. And rage usually gets in the way of training.

[Killionaire]

Except Cortexes don't run on steam and gears. They're computers that use magical interactions in the form of Mechanicka instead of transistors to simulate an intelligent, self-aware being. They're basically AIs, and have mechanical precision on their side.

A Beast meanwhile, while being ferocious and mean in it's own right, is still a feral creature that much of the time, doesn't have the training to fight in actual warfare, but relies on natural instincts which could be more suited to killing prey animals or something. Even if some of them are trained somewhat (skorne) or more intelligent (trolls), it happens.

[althai]

Remember that 'jacks weren't getting played enough prior to Mk II, so they got a number of advantages to encourage more use, such as bonus warjack points on casters and higher mat/rat. Beasts, on the other hand, were getting played plenty, so they did not need the same buffs. My guess is that this is the real reason.

Remember that a warlock generally needs to force their beasts every turn, so beasts tend to get a lot of boosted rolls more-or-less for free. Warcasters, on the other hand, have to split their focus between many different things, so boosting rolls on 'jacks is comparatively pricier than boosting rolls on beasts.

[Cambeul]

A wizard did it!

[iknowinternet]

I knew there was going to be a "shoot"storm over this from the Hordes players, to which I answer:

Do you realize how damn difficult it was to hit anything with a jack in Mk1? Did you have that problem with your beasts? No? Didn't think so.

[whitekong]

He he, win. But seriously I agree with the op, a beast that has been killing and fighting it's entire life with it's natural weapons should have pretty good knowledge of how to use them. They should have made warjack armor higher to show how tough they are.

[Demeritus]

Focus is far more limited than Fury.

Jacks needed a lot more to encourage their use as they are a drain on the warcaster and especially in mk1 they were a lot more fragile.

Beasts can boost more attacks than a warjack can thanks to access to more fury.

Generally jacks have fewer chances to get done what they need to get done because they are a drain on the warcaster and do not have access to the potential boosting that warbeasts do.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I knew there was going to be a "shoot"storm over this from the Hordes players, to which I answer:

Do you realize how damn difficult it was to hit anything with a jack in Mk1? Did you have that problem with your beasts? No? Didn't think so.

Actually, yes. Read any of the troll forums and you will see people saying, take the EB because he is Mat 6. No one else can hit things.
Most beasts were animus batteries, with the exception of Seraphs & Legions beastspam lists. Circle had Warpwolves and Woldwardens as well.

The only difference is that we had to boost all our hits, which generates a lot of fury, more than most warlocks can handle.

[Septimus]

Well, from what I've seen in the cards, beast seem to have a lot more variety in terms of MAT/RAT as opposed to their jack counterparts, obviously a result of not being built on a standardized chassis. Generally, it seems that beasts with a ranged attack pay for it with decreased MAT, which I guess could be justified from a fluff perspective by the beast necessarily having to split its focus between ranged and combat disciplines over the course of its lifespan.

[CT GAMER]

So I know this may be a case of fluff != rules, but it seems like if we were going to go by fluff, beasts would be a higher mat/rat than jacks almost always, or at least, outside of uniques.

When warjacks can "force" themselves to do the things they need focus for (boosting, etc.) without the need to be pre-allocated focus from a shared finite pool then your argument will be valid...

[megatron0]

But warlocks pay for this!
you cant just say Oh its ok your stuff cant hit anything because you can force yourself loads

[lastspartacus]

My only complaint in the current system is frenzying leading to an inane and ineffective beast, rather than a, you know, frenzied beast. Im ok with one attack, just make it fully boosted. Its not, if i read the rules correctly. This is what feedback is for!

[Sinsation]

Sorry, should have clarified my question. I was wondering more from a fluff/lore standpoint, if there was any justification for the cortex-based jacks to be more effective than beasts.
Reading through some of the posts from people with more IK knowledge than I, it makes sense I guess, for some of these jacks to be better skilled. Granted, some beasts I think would deserve to have better MAT/RAT, but I can see a better argument now for jacks.

[Cambeul]

He he, win. But seriously I agree with the op, a beast that has been killing and fighting it's entire life with it's natural weapons should have pretty good knowledge of how to use them. They should have made warjack armor higher to show how tough they are.

Well lets say Whitekong you start taking a Martial art, either Weapons, MMA, Boxing ect...

When you start you will be pretty 'green' and no next to nothing but you learn over time, eventually you will develope into a Character Warbeast.

A Warjack is a pre programmed Automotive Robot (AutoBot ) that can just be loaded with the latest and greatest in Battle Tech. Machines can be made to be Faster, Stronger and Tougher than most Warbeasts. Eventually there are Glitches in the system and they develope their own personalities and you get BEAST-09 ect...

[BENDER]

When warjacks can "force" themselves to do the things they need focus for (boosting, etc.) without the need to be pre-allocated focus from a shared finite pool then your argument will be valid...

To expand on this. When even the lowliest warjack can "force" itself into casting animi to help itself and its team mates, you have the right to complain. Beasts have more options open to them in terms of natural abilities and animi, create resources rather than use them, and often hit just as hard, if not harder than a simialr priced warjack. By all means campaign for a better MAT score, but it's my opinion that warbeasts are already equal to or exceeding warjack capabilities.

Edit:

OK now that little steam has been vented. And the thread has been clarified into a fluff question I'll put my tupence in on that one. I think of it this way. A warbeast is still an animal at the end of the day. If have ever experienced being attacked by an animal (In my case by dogs..too many times lol!) or watch footage of them attacking each other or a human.(Youtube has some real good examples. Elephants especially) You would notice that although it is very fast and furious, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of technique or forward planning going on. Its just a brawl. And against a skilled opponent, this doesnt count for much.

[Savage Bastard]

I look at the Character Jacks as the Answer, they learn, behave, act differently

Warp Beast, Learn, Behave, Act Differently, but get old and die

Take the Berserker, Drago, O'Rowdy, or Deathjack for that mater the Jacks pushing over hundred and is still woopen ***

The only Warbeast the en on par with that is the WoldWatcher or WoldGuardian or Woldwyrd

some one said that they should have increased Jack Armour (what you crazy, I would love a Devastator with 30 Armour when clammed up nothing could hurt it) then again not much can now either

[Blaque]

To expand on this. When even the lowliest warjack can "force" itself into casting animi to help itself and its team mates, you have the right to complain. Beasts have more options open to them in terms of natural abilities and animi, create resources rather than use them, and often hit just as hard, if not harder than a simialr priced warjack. By all means campaign for a better MAT score, but it's my opinion that warbeasts are already equal to or exceeding warjack capabilities.

I'm aware this is a fluff thread. But frankly, as a Hordes-only player, I am getting **** of this sentimetn that we somehow are some ungodly killing force who went and stole everyone's ****ing candy. And that we should b enerfed into the ground so WM can feel some smug supremecy.

The MAT/RAT thing I can live with. Though note as a result, the warbeasts are making elss attacks. We also have to force to charge. So while a charge costs teh warjack one point since it is less in need to boost, the warbeast has to spend two to it. In addition, when it hits, it has lwoer P+S usually. As a result, after tha frist hit, it will have to boost more attacks.

Pretty much even though it "Can force anyways", this results in it pretty much having less gotten out of each force. I personally can live with this. The issue however is that despite this, we pay more for equivilant beasts. I look at some of the heavies like a Carnivean and wonder how the hell that thing is priced equal to Beast 09, which while when it doe **** is indeed devastating, has the likelyhood to hit of a PC 6 Berzerker, a model nearly half its point cost value.

Also note that we have to take our warbeasts. Even though you'll see more warjacks in MkII, the warjacks are still an option, still a luxury. You are under no means having to take the things. I still see Harbinger lists with just a Devout. I still see Cryx ones with just arcnodes. By contrast, I have to take beasts. I have to have enough Fury to fuel my warlock. As such, even though Fury as a system si better, I pay for it. Fury is better in itself, but its more expensive in that it drains your army of resources.

In MkI, Trollbood players pretty much played effectively infantrymachine. They took the bare minimum beasts for reliable Fury and went from there. Why? Because warbeasts die to infantry like warjacks do. its the exact same problem, save warbeasts have less armor and wounds then warbeasts, so they die faster. And the best way to counter infantry is infantry, which by having to take warbeasts, we will have less of. ANd by making warbeasts more expensive then warjacks, evne less of.

My prediction is that if things were to go off to print now, we would see heavy beasts treated like heavy warjacks were in MkI. A luxury item for some warlocks who can actually do anything with them, but relegated to the sidelines as they take the bare minimum cheap lights to fill Fury and try to go from there, filling thier lists upw ith infantry as that's the stuff getting the job done.

So I reiterate my first reply in this thread. Fury is better then Focus. It is not so much better that Hordes players should feel like they are being told to play at the kiddy's table.

And stuff.

[Larkin Vain]

My only complaint in the current system is frenzying leading to an inane and ineffective beast, rather than a, you know, frenzied beast. Im ok with one attack, just make it fully boosted. Its not, if i read the rules correctly. This is what feedback is for!

Page 41 of the Field Test.

A frenzied warbeast never makes special attacks. It makes
one attack with its melee weapon with the highest POW. The
attack and damage rolls for this attack are boosted.

[BENDER]

Defensive counter rant....And stuff.

I hope you feel as good as I did when I got my rant off my chest

I never said that hordes players don't pay for their priveleges. The warbeasts being pretty much mandatory and all that jazz. All what you said is true. I will even wager that once the novelty has worn off, alot of players will just barely go over their minimum jack/beast points just for the sake of using them and go right back to playing infantry machine. I agree with you on a lot of things. But I still feel that beasts need to be differentiated and balanced with jacks somehow. And the lower MAT seems like a solution to me.

[Skaramush]

Seriously think about it , jacks have highly advanced cortexes the most expensive of which like Thunderhead cost like a kings ransom in gold .And with beasts with exception of the cyclops for skorne hardly any of them had any martial training ... so that would explain the mat / rat. Jacks have targeting software pretty much .

[Blaque]

I think for me, its mostly their PC and the current stuff with Shake-Offs. And not all things are even wrong on PC (I am as a Circle player, think Feral Warpwolves are pretty damned close to Seethers and fine.) But say, heavy constructs, Dire Trolls and the inabilty to get through armor does weigh on a guy.

(Just to note, I actually sided with Cryx on the arcnode costs and soul collection. I just wish that I wasn't going to be dragged down with it.)

And stuff.

[Galleon]

A warjack has more mat/rat then A warbeast becuase the jack has a warcasters mind controling it moves during combat. If you have a warcaster that has spent most of his life studying and practicing jui jutsu his mentally controlled dervish is going to shred a beast , whos life experiences in combat include tracking down animals lower on the food chain and mindlessly beating it until its lunch.

On the game side I dont think warbeasts are suffering that much. Lets take my mangler and give it 3 focus. It uses some to charge and 2 more to make attacks. So we have pow 17 , 17 , 17 and 14. Your dire troll charges for 1 fury. Pow 16 ,16 .....16,16,16,16 . I think your fine. Your right though i dont have to take warjack and you have to take warbeast. You also get to transfer damage so i have to kill those beast before i can get to your caster where you can just go for the assassination. So im not really seeing a point.

[Turtle]

Why is a M1 Abrams tank better than an Elephant with armor and a rocket launcher strapped to it?

That said, it's a stupid comparison to make any way you go about it. It's all magic as others have posted.

[Sinsation]

Even in magic worlds, magic has consistency.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Fluffwise, it is however PP says it is, and they don't balance to fluff they balance to gameplay.

Right now you could justify it by saying that advanced Cortex design is responsible for the higher Mat/Rat and that most beasts are effectively "conscripts" not trained for war.

If they changed it, you could just as easily say that the beasts natural instincts allow it to compete with jacks on an equal footing. Or that Warlocks are naturally enhancing the ability of their jacks to be more trained and efficient even beyond forcing.

Really, you can't argue that jacks have higher Mat/Rat for any fluff reasons, because when beasts first came out they had equal Mat/Rat to jacks. So according to the fluff they started with, they are equally able to hit in a scrap.

Anything else is adding fluff to justify, which is fun as a thought exercise, but not how PP approaches either fluff or game stats.

[DevonV]

So long as this is a fluff discussion, I just want to toss the monkey wrench that is 'jack marshals into this.

If high MAT/RAT is a result of the warcaster's mind, why is it still high when there's no warcaster?

That suggests that 'jacks in and of themselves are superior to warbeasts in the fluff.

[Razhem]

Fluff reasoning for me is the same reason a machine can be programmed to being able to doe extremely precise spacial and geometrical calculations. It is no mystery a computer can make in miliseconds incredibly complex calculations that would leave a man awestruck for quite a longer period of time. Supposing the mechanical pieces that the jack is made off can get a decent mileage of it's capacity to calculate, then it would be more precise, and mat is after all, precision.

In game reasoning. Jacks were heavily ignored in heavy competitive meta (I still used them and found them useful, but meh, the results are still there). Beasts were used more actively and not just because you need to take them. Thing I'm noticing though is I tend to avoid low mat/low speed models, so to me titans are useless yet Cyclops are still as good as before and perfectly serviceable in the current version of the game (specially now that the brute justifies it's lower mat by bring useful as a guardian, something he certainly wasn't before. Molik Karn is still satan incarnate. The Rhinodon on the other hand, to put an example, never really did it for me since mat 5 + thresher ended in a lot of missing attacks unless I started boosting actively, reason why I only used it with Makeda and even then, he got ignored when the Karn came.

Keep in mind I'm also a menite player, and since MKI I have been used to having mat 7 when it was needed most times and in MKI with skorne I could give -3 defence to the enemy when I really needed it, so it can be a case of me being very pampered.

[iknowinternet]

Dear Hordes:

Play a handful of games using these FIELD test rules and then get back to us.

- iknowinternet

P.S. I also think it's interesting how the tables have turned, and you don't seem to be able (or willing) to deal with the exact same situation WM players had against you guys for years in Mk1. Get creative. Find some synergy. Play like you've got a pair.

[darisus]

Having faced the troll mauler the other night, i don't know what hordes are complaining about. Not only can a lock cast his own animus on him making his 2 fist hit at pow 19 each (even khador jacks can't shrug those off easy) you get a free 2 handed throw which you are going to win the str test on. As for the mat thing, he has a 6 which hits most heavy jacks who have 10 def on 4's and even lights on 6's unboosted. This gives you 5 fury to play around with for boosting hits on high def targets like those casters you are throwing that heavy jack onto or for dmg to totally wreck a heavy jack in one turn. At 9 pts I don't know why any troll player wouldn't use one. If i had a warjack with the same stats and cost i would play it in almost every list.

[Typhael]

I'm not sure if everyone is remembering that not only do beasts have animi (and jacks don't), but most beasts have a slew of abilities that most jacks don't usually get.

From a Cryxian/Skorne perspective, I know that I pay 6 points for a Slayer. I also know that, as a Skorne player, I pay 8 points for a Gladiator. Let's work out the differences:

Slayer: 2 points higher SPD, 2 points higher MAT, potential to combo-strike, 1 more damage box, 1 more point of defence.

Gladiator: animus, 2 points higher arm, Bullheaded and Grand Slam, stronger Tusks attack, Chain attack, higher str (for resisting/initiating throws and the like), more fury than the Slayer can have focus (if necessary).

So, while the Slayer is statistically higher, the Gladiator has that many more abilities that it can use if necessary. To put them at the same points cost would be silly and, as the Gladiator is the "simplest" of the Skorne warbeasts, it wouldn't make sense to tinker with the others, either. The Slayer also has fewer in-faction direct support abilities (i.e. Paingivers).

I'm still convinced that if beasts get mat/rat bumps, they will once again be the "hands-down" winners in jack/beast contests, and I think that PP is trying to get away from that.

[Blaque]

Dear Hordes:

Play a handful of games using these FIELD test rules and then get back to us.

- iknowinternet

P.S. I also think it's interesting how the tables have turned, and you don't seem to be able (or willing) to deal with the exact same situation WM players had against you guys for years in Mk1. Get creative. Find some synergy. Play like you've got a pair.

You seem to presume we haven't been playing. We have been. We just can't do feedback officially yet. In some cases I like that they aren't getting inendated by are knee-jerkness. On the other hand, the truncated FT for Hordes means we have to be relaly aggressive or we will be given what effecitvely will be a comparitively non-competitieve product.

And on the "tables have turned" thing, I like that warjacks are good. I like to see them on the other side fo the table. It means that I don't feel as much sting from the infnatry horde that was MkI Warmachine. That said, I also would liek to feel like we are playing on teh same field with most my stuff.

As for the "play like you got a pair", I would like you to take that phrase and toss it. I think few people have called the other cowards on this. I'm saying what I have seen in gameplay and in reports. So don't lecture us on not playing and calling us whiney in this instance. I would go so far as even bringing that quote in this instance is tadamount to calling us a bunch of wusses.

Like the use of screaming doom when people complain about something instead of arguing its legitimateness, or pulling the "Well now youg et to suck", how about thinking about whether we are indeed having fun and feeling like we are being treated like equal participants in a game?

Having faced the troll mauler the other night, i don't know what hordes are complaining about. Not only can a lock cast his own animus on him making his 2 fist hit at pow 19 each (even khador jacks can't shrug those off easy) you get a free 2 handed throw which you are going to win the str test on. As for the mat thing, he has a 6 which hits most heavy jacks who have 10 def on 4's and even lights on 6's unboosted. This gives you 5 fury to play around with for boosting hits on high def targets like those casters you are throwing that heavy jack onto or for dmg to totally wreck a heavy jack in one turn. At 9 pts I don't know why any troll player wouldn't use one. If i had a warjack with the same stats and cost i would play it in almost every list.

Not all warbeasts are overcosted. Most the lights are actually probably where they should be. I think the Warpwolves, while solid statwise, the Purebloods need a bit more oomph, though I admit to not be sure what. Its afew specific ones, such as most any Skorne heavy not named Molik Karn, the Carnivean, Seraphim, the heavy Constructs and the Minion ones that come to mind personally.

That and I still feel the fact that right now using Shake Off effectively being not only half as useful, but actually able to loose you the entire game is just out and out stupidity as at this moment.

And stuff.