What's The Deal With The Black Frost Shard?

[quotemyname]

Are they any good? They don't seem to be played as often as their equivalent models from other Factions (e.g. The Great Bears from Khador, or The Black Thirteenth from Cygnar, or The Withershadow Combine from Cryx). Is this just because Legion has a lot of other great stuff that people would rather use those points for? (Another beast? Reindeer? etc?) Or does the Blackfrost Shard Unit stink? Or is it that they're just not *quite* what you wanted, or just can't *quite* get the job done?

[vaildin]

In my experience, they've never been in position to be useful. Always just out of range of hitting anything on the critical turn that I would need them on.

[the_stoneman]

They are more situational then the other factions. Kiss is good and ice cage can be very usefull. Compared to the other factions they are rarely worth thier points. They should have stealth as a basic and change the remove upkeep from BFS only spell. This would probably make them more worth theor points and see play more often.

Right now it is basically only kiss that makes them worth fielding in some cases at all.

[quotemyname]

Yea, after pouring over their stats a little, I would have to agree. They give the faction Kiss of Lylith, which is nice. But otherwise they just seem like glorified greylords, which is silly, frankly, because they're character. I'd much rather have sprays than Ice Bolt.

Innate stealth would seem to make a little more sense, but I don't know... I think basically they're just the ability to get Kiss in a faction that can't take A&H...

[SageofLodoss]

Yea, after pouring over their stats a little, I would have to agree. They give the faction Kiss of Lylith, which is nice. But otherwise they just seem like glorified greylords, which is silly, frankly, because they're character. I'd much rather have sprays than Ice Bolt.

Innate stealth would seem to make a little more sense, but I don't know... I think basically they're just the ability to get Kiss in a faction that can't take A&H...

I've played the Black Frost shard dozens of times and have found them to be useful support in most of my games. They're good, but they're not stand-out great. They'd be stand-out great if they could do a lot on their own, but for the most part they are a support unit. Still, that support is strong with things like a Scythean or Angelius. Ice Cage a target until anything but double ones hits, hit them with Kiss of Lyliss, watch as Chain Attacks and an Armor Piercing strike do a number on heavy armor.

They are, first and foremost, a toolbox unit. They are designed to bring DEF debuffs and effective POW increases so that our beasts become that much more effective. If they have to, they can use Ice Bolts for picking off solos or incorporeal units.

They are also weapon masters, despite the lowish POW, and I've killed some surprising things when I was left with little option but to charge before.

It does suck that they don't have Stealth naturally, or at least have a static gain when one of them is alive like the Combine.

Ways to use them:

Bethayne: Best option IMO. I've gotten so many Turn 2 assassinations with Spell Martyred Gallows + feated Ice Cages/Ice Bolts and Kiss, followed by Hex Hunter bolts needing 6's on three dice against DEF 16 casters, hitting them with effective boosted 15's. Ice Bolts can get crit freeze off on feat turn too. If you're facing warmachine and your Carnivore is therefore maybe on Hex Hunters so they can battlewizard infantry to death, Ashen Veil decreases their reliance on using their Stealth action.

pLylyth: Boosts their crit or ice cage chances with feat. Kiss + DEF Debuff + Parasite + additional attack die for whole army = dead anything.

eVayl: If you've mastered the beautifully frustrating strategy of cycling Refuge and having two of your heavies hit and run your opponent to death, Ice Cage and Kiss just make it worse for your opponent. (What, you just fly in, hit me for Dice +6, Repulse me away, and then move back!)

pThags: Potential here, just because FOW means your opponent can't casually remove them most of the time, meaning they can more confidantly go to work supporting your beasts. Draconic Blessing + Kiss = POW 21-22 range on beasts, or POW 15 Weaponmasters with one POW 19 Weapon Master Combo Strike on Swordsmen.

[TrollFace666]

I use them in many lists, and love them every time. The Kiss is amazing alongside Ice Cage. I especially like them with Bethayne....

[Defenstrator]

I have only ever found them ok. By the time they are close enough to do something they generally get one turn and then die. Generally two Forsaken or Deathstalkers and a Shepherd is a better 5 point investment. I'm not saying they're bad, but are definately not in the same league as most other character units. The fact that Disbinding is do useless as to he an essentially dead ability doesn't help.

[Northern Ronin]

To me, they're just a point of Magic ability short of being great. When you have a tool to fix DEF for MAT 6 beasts, you need to have a high accuracy to make sure it can happen when you can't boost.

[Alexwheeler]

i use them in my beth 50pt lists and with the HH's they tend to take out 1 to 2 jacks on feat turn

[Earthcrosser599]

They've proven to be underwhelming when I've taken mine. If you could Kiss the target on the charge I'd take them more often. As it stands they generally don't do much more than threaten Kiss and draw fire. That works okay because alot of the high-armor targets generally don't have much defense, but Ice Cages never works because their magic ability is too low. If you need the -2 DEF for the rest of your guys, the crappy 7+2d6 Cage probably won't hit either. If you have a way to buff the shot, like pLylyth or something, you probably don't need the Cages to begin with.

It was a good idea, and I want them to work. But they very clearly stand out for the worse when compared to the Bears or the Black 13th or the Combine.

[Roadhouse]

Their lack of survivability is the real deal breaker imo. Def 14 Arm 12 that can't run and be stealth... If they were Def 15 Arm 13 and had Stealth built in they would be worth it. If they are Stealth they aren't where they need to be, if not they just die.

[Truxyo]

I have only ever used them with Bethayne. Otherwise, yes they need static stealth. That's all, I wouldn't need anything else to justify them in many more lists.

[Maerik]

Carnivore is a Remove from Play effect, so it negates Battle Wizard, unfortunately.

I like playing them with Vayl2 and putting Occultation on them. Then they finally have innate stealth, and you get a little bit of a damage buff and def debuff that is a poor man's incite.

That being said, Bethayne is definitely their best use in my opinion.

[the_stoneman]

The basic problem with them is that they technically cost a heavy (those points often come at the cost of bringing another heavy). The fact is also that even with stealth they are one spell short (the stealth spell) also the remove upkep fropm this unit is just a bad spell on them. That combined with them having only spandex on, dying to easely to blasts is just bad.

I agree that they do have their uses but are very situational, just the basis that most seem to agree that they need a specific walocks feat (Bethrayne) to be considered good is a warning. Kiss is good and also lowering def, but as said before units that you need to lower def on they will have real problem hitting. This basically reverts them to a +2 attack, damage buff to 1-2 heavy targets in a game, is most often not worth thier points.

This combined that when compared with the other caracter units they just lack alot of luster.

[ThatWhichLurks]

I like them. They might not be the first thing that I put into my lists and often don't make it there at all, but I never regretted bringing them when I did.