Yet another Epic Butcher Tactica

[jdeckert]

Kommander Orsus Zoktavir

So there are already 2 great tacticas written about epic Butcher: one by 0ver.d0se and one by PG_ChainGun. Butcher’s epic incarnation quickly became my favorite caster last summer and he’s been my go-to guy ever since. So I wanted to do a tactica of my own and figured it might be helpful to have a more recent one. Plus this guy's so much fun I think it's only right that he be our first caster with three tacticas!

Summary:

If page 5 was a warcaster, it'd be Epic Butcher.

Aggression and carnage. When you pull the trigger with an epic Butcher list, it's not uncommon for your opponent to watch as virtually his entire force disappears from the board. Aggression pays huge because with the epic Butcher the best defense really is a good offense. He doesn't boost his army's survivability in any way and he likes troops that are glass cannons. The only way to keep Butcher and his army alive is to kill the enemy before they can kill you. He's an all-out agression caster in a game of all-out aggression.

I think this is why Butcher2 has really clicked for me. I often go for a big, crazy plan one turn too early with other casters. With Butcher, that timing is just about right.

This play style definitely puts the pressure on your opponent. If you feel that you often face an overwhelming number of threats and have to react, epic Butcher might be your chance to be in the driver's seat. Keep in mind that an opponent is dangerous with their back against the wall, because those desperate assassination attempts might work. In fact, they are one of the better responses to an epic Butcher list.

Generally, my games with Butcher2 tend to go something like: first turn run; second turn kill a few models and run; third turn pop feat and kill as much as possibe, either the enemy warcaster/lock or anything that could threaten Butcher himself. Fourth turn (rare), either get assassinated because I didn’t kill enough or finish them off (possibly by scenario if their caster is WAY back).

Strengths:

Butcher himself can neutralize just about any threat on the table. He can carve through entire units of infantry or crush multiple heavies. He's got fury, so high armor isn't much of a concern when combined with our already hard-hitting stuff. His feat rewards you for killing by letting you kill even more stuff. And with the feat you can pull off some of the longest range melee assassinations in the game, leaving epic Stryker and Molik Karn in the dust. Given his offensive output, his buff spell, and the potential of his feat, he can be one of the most devastating casters in the game when everything clicks.

Weaknesses:
Having random focus each turn makes him unpredictable and requires you to be flexible. His medium base, low defense and lack of reliable focus-camping ability make him susceptible to assassination. That can spell disaster since he likes to play up close. He also provides virtually no support for a combined-arms type army. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t want ranged pieces, just that he won’t improve them in any way. He’s got relatively little in the way of infantry support period, no way of improving your army’s durability, and his ‘jack support is partly conditional on him killing things.

I find that his hardest match-ups are gun-lines or kiting lists in non-scenario play and elite-level ranged/magic assassination lists. Tough and other shenanigans like self-sacrifice or Roth's mercy can be a pain, too, but are definitely not insurmountable. They can stop berserk cold, which means they can derail Butcher's ability to mow down infantry. Look out for things that can take out your troops before they get into the action (AOEs, chain lightning, bile thralls, etc) or things that can stall your advance (either Haley, inhospitable ground). ChainGun mentions jack/beast heavy lists as a tough matchup since you can't generate as many feat tokens, but I think that the theme list has changed this. Those kinds of lists can struggle against a lot of infantry, especially infantry that can take them out with ease.

[jdeckert]

Tactics:

The berserk Butcher:
If the Butcher casts ravager on himself, he can easily obliterate entire units of infantry. If you?ve seen what Gerlak Slaughterborn or the Tharn Whitemane can do, you know how awesome extra moves and attacks can be. Having that ability on an already incredibly beatstick caster is just all kinds of awesome. Butcher doesn?t get to move quite as much as those guys, but since he can buy extra attacks it works out pretty well. PG_ChainGun made up a handy algorithm, which I?ll re-post here (ChainGun - let me know if you don't want this here, I could just link to your tactica instead):



Your opponent will likely have 1 of 3 responses. First, they?ll be ignorant of it and let you walk through an entire unit or more. This is obviously great fun, though you might feel a little guilty. Second, they?ll be so afraid of it that they will keep their units a long ways from Butcher. This can be a huge benefit for you, as it means that their heavy hitters will be without their cheap infantry screen and susceptible to whatever nastiness you?ve got. It can also be great in scenario play. If your opponent uses this tactic, they?re basically letting you use the Butcher as a huge 12? denial zone. That?s like having the Old Witch?s feat up every turn. Not quite, obviously, but it can be used to your advantage. Lastly, they?ll try to keep their troops spread out and positioned well to minimize the damage he can cause. After a few games against him they?ll likely figure this out. Keeping their infantry away means that a huge part of their army isn?t earning their points back. With good positioning, Butcher might only be able to get a handful of them even if he starts close. That?s fine, because Butcher?s perfectly happy killing 3 or 4 troops. While a canny opponent can minimize the damage he can do, it?s very difficult to keep him out of the game entirely. There is an additional benefit to having your opponent spread out his models. Since Butcher?s feat is so effective at long-range melee assassination, you?ll want to be able to clear lanes for you assassins to get through. If your enemy is keeping his troops well spread out, he?s doing half of your work for you. I?ve had opponents spread their 3 units of infantry all over the board, so that Butcher has only been able to kill 1 or 2 troops. A couple well-placed widowmaker shots, and all of a sudden there are wide open lanes to their caster.

Not getting Assassinated:
This is the flip side of the above, and one of the toughest problems with Butcher2. Since two of Butcher?s best abilities require him getting his hands dirty, you want him to be pretty far up the field. I often have him charge (and cast fury on a 'jack) or run turn one and run turn two. This often puts him in range of shooting and magic attacks. While he?s got good armor and lots of hit boxes, if you have a low focus roll he is still fairly easy to assassinate due to his low defense. Turn 2 and possibly turn 3 are the times he?s most vulnerable. With a lucky focus roll you might be able to be really aggressive with him and not have to worry too much about assassinations. If you can make it through that point, you?ll hopefully be able to smash anything that could pose a threat to him. There are a few ways I?ve found to prevent getting him killed, in the order of which I use the most.

1. Screening. I often use a jack or two and/or Fenris for this. The problem with screening is in positioning, since it will give you order of activation problems. The turn Butcher charges into melee is usually the turn you want to feat, meaning that you?ll want him to go first to maximize feat tokens and to give your jacks conferred rage bonuses. But if you?ve got big pieces in front of Butcher, you?ll need to get them out of the way first. I?ve lost a game as a result of not being able to get Butcher past his screen. Still, sticking a devastator between Butcher and a big gun is a pretty sure way of keeping him alive for another round. And there are games in which it will be enough for Butcher to shoot a single infantry model rather than wipe out an entire unit single-handedly.

2. Defensive tech. Since Butcher can give himself pathfinder, hiding behind a wall isn?t necessarily a bad idea. Catch is that there aren?t always walls handy and he can only cast Boundless charge and ravager 2/3rds of the time. If you?re running non-tier, you have more options. The bokur can absorb a single shot, provided you and your opponent agree to play him RAI instead of RAW. Gorman or Greylords can cloud Butcher, giving him a respectable DEF. The wardog helps against long-range melee assassinations. If your running MOW, you can run the mechanicks and UA to prevent knockdown. If Eiryss isn?t a threat and you have a good focus roll on turn two, you can camp that focus and push him upfield without worrying as much.

3. Hold him back. As painful as this is to do, it might be necessary against some matchups.

The Feat:

Epic Butcher's feat is one of his best features. It is also part of what lends him some degree of tactical complexity, as your ability to time it well is often decisive. There are three things to consider in regards to the feat: 1. are you going to kill enough enemy models for it to be worthwhile? 2. are high-priority targets in range that you'll be able to take out with feat tokens? and 3. do you have enough models in play to receive tokens? Pop the feat too early, and you won't be generating enough tokens to really get the mileage you're looking for. Pop it too late and you might not have enough models left to take advantage or you might not get to use it at all.

The number of feat tokens that you need to generate is completely dependent on what's happening on the table. If you can upkeep fury on a spriggan and give it a focus to run, you might only need 3 tokens on it to seal the deal. If you're hoping to use feat tokens to kill a pair of heavy warbeasts, you'll need a lot more.

A good general rule of thumb (if you came up with this, let me know so I can credit you, I think I first heard it from Devilsquid?) is to use the feat to assassinate against Warmachine and to kill warbeasts against Hordes. I think that the exception is against backline casters in Warmachine. They'll often be impossible to get to during the feat, since they'll be more than an advance behind their army. On the plus side, they're not usually much of a threat by themselves, so if you use the feat for attrition you can often eliminate pretty much every threat to Butcher on the table.

In short, the feat will often win you the game. This is either via direct assassination, or by the utter obliteration of every real threat in your opponent's army. It turns a good alpha strike into a wave of destruction the likes of which can only be found in an epic Butcher list.

[jdeckert]

Jacks

Butcher2 can give huge bonuses to his 'jacks if he kills something, and always lets them charge for free. Since we've got a decent selection of focus-efficient 'jacks, you can actually run somewhat 'jack heavy with him. Squee swears by a list that revolves around a pair of devastators and marauders. I haven't gotten it to work for me, but hopefully I will in the future. As is, I like one or two with him. The spriggan, devastator, and Beast are just so good with him that I like having two big threats. Still, with the great selection of troops available its hard to spend all those points on jacks.

Demolisher: This 'jack has really clicked for me in the list. He solves the problem with super-high DEF infantry by having 2 4" AOEs, which is not bad at all. As opposed to the devastator, he can sit behind the doom reavers (where he'll have to be anyway since he can't keep up) and clear infantry from 8" away. This means that he won't be catching your own guys very often and that he can clear lanes for your doom reavers to get to juicier targets. The devastator would either 1) have a hard time keeping up with the doom reavers, or 2) not be able to get through the doom reavers to do his thing, or 3) take some doom reavers in his rain of death and then block your lanes while being relatively easy for the enemy to remove.

Spriggan: This guy is my second favorite ‘jack to run with Butcher2. An optimal feat turn starts with Butcher upkeeping fury on the ‘jack, giving it a focus, and then killing something. Your other stuff kills a couple models, generating at least 2 more feat tokens and possibly clearing lanes. This is where it gets crazy. The spriggan can then run 12”, bulldozing everything out of the way to get into great position. Then he gets 3 feat tokens, advances another 6” into melee range of the enemy caster, and can attack at MAT 8, P+S 21 with two virtual focus. That spells death for most casters, and with the ‘jack starting 20” away to boot.

Devastator: For a while I was really sold on this guy with Butcher2 for killing pesky super high-def infantry. The demolisher does the same job but much better for the list.

Beast 09: What is there to say? He’s Beast. Kills infantry, kills heavies, kills casters. His imprint doesn’t work with the feat, which is a bummer. But with his already high MAT and reach, he’s a good feat assassin anyway. I usually bring him as a second jack with Butcher2, since my first choice will be a spriggan or devastator for reasons already listed.

Drago: Drago's imprint combined with ravager allows him to do Butcher's trick to kill-move-kill again. He lacks reach, however, which makes this a little less efficient. Either there's another enemy model 1” from your melee range or not, whether you have reach or not. Still, reach gives you a wider zone, making it more likely that you can get to an enemy model. And once you get there, you'll have more stuff in range to chop up. Still, Drago can be useful. Running for free is actually pretty nice, and MAT 7 can be super helpful. I don't think he brings enough compared to other options to be really competitive with Butcher2, but he can be a fun model regardless.

Juggernaut: Cheap and hard-hitting, I think it's a good choice with epic Butcher. He doesn't necessarily have great synergy like some other 'jacks, but I've not yet regretted bringing him. If Butcher can get him the accuracy/speed boost, he's got fantastic offensive potential since he already hits so hard. The enemy really can't ignore the guy despite his low price, making him an excellent bait piece. If your opponent is trading one of their heavies for a juggernaut, it's probably a good situation for you.

Kodiak: If you don't have pathfinder anywhere else in the list, this guy can give it to you. Butcher does have boundless charge, but since that requires focus there's no guarantee that you'll be able to hand it out and still do the other things you need to with him. I think he's a great choice if you want a well-balanced list or are taking two 'jacks.

Berserker: Lots of people like the berserker with Butcher2 since he costs exactly as much as the warjack points you’ve got available. Butcher can shore up some of his weaknesses, since he can make him faster, more accurate, and harder hitting. The berserker doesn’t really need (or want) focus. That said, I think that you can get a LOT more mileage out of one of our better jacks. At a minimum, I think it’s wort the extra point to upgrade to a juggernaut, since the juggernaut is just so much better in nearly every way. Maybe I’ve just been burned too badly by MAT 5, explosions, and low survivability to give this guy a fair shake. I think that if you like the berserker, you’ll like him with Butcher2. If not, you won’t.

[jdeckert]

Units

Doom reavers: If you love doom reavers, you’ll love Butcher 2’s theme list. You probably know that by now. You can run 7 units of doom reavers in a 35 point game. And they’re awesome. While they don’t benefit from any of Butcher’s spells, they can generate feat tokens like nobody’s business and can then put them to good use. They go down easy, but that’s why you run so many units of them. Just bring these guys, bring them often, and bring a lot of them. Glassjaw recently wrote an excellent tactica on them, here.

Greylord escort, Doom reaver UA: I wanted to include a section on this guy since he’s fairly controversial. Some people take him with every possible unit, some people insist he should never be taken, most people have a really strong opinion one way or the other. My view is that he’s a really well balanced UA. He’s not an auto-include for the unit, but he is usually worth his points for me, even in the theme list where those 2 points could go toward another unit of doom reavers. The two most obvious things he brings to the unit are tough and silence. It has been argued that tough is not terribly useful for doom reavers since they’re not very useful the round after they pass a tough check. I find that those doom reavers just become your second wave, and even if that’s just one guy he can still do a ton of damage. Not only that, but doom reavers who pass tough checks can still use feat tokens, which is sometimes useful. It is also argued that silence is unnecessary. You can reduce the chances of berserking onto your own guys with good positioning, and Fenris can give them silence if you really need it. While positioning is possible when sending reavers against infantry, if you want to put 4+ guys on a heavy you might not be able to do so without losing a couple of your own reavers. Fenris is great, but he can’t be everywhere, and if you’re running 3+ units of doom reavers you might like having silence on one of them. If your escort saves 1 or 2 guys via tough and 1 or 2 via silence, he’s pretty much paid for himself.

He’s got a couple of other nice abilities, too though. First, his CMD. Being able to spread your guys out more helps with anti-infantry tech. It makes you less susceptible to AOEs, electro-leaps, bile thralls, etc. Plus the increased CMD just gives you more flexibility with them. Additionally, he has some offensive output. If your doom reavers don’t need to charge (with their speed, reach, and already fantastic damage this is often times the case) he can use his spray, which is great for clearing out infantry. I don’t use it every game, but probably 1 in 3 to very good effect. If they do charge, don’t forget that he has reach and is good enough to clear out light infantry. Again, it’s usually better to keep him back and safe, but there are times when it’s helpful.

Great Bears: They're the Great Bears. They crush heavies and make great feat targets. What else can be said about their awesomeness?

Kayazy Assassins: These guys are really good without any support, and do well with in epic Butcher lists. Fury makes them hit crazy hard when you need them to, and their mini-feat can get them great positioning to maximize the use of rage tokens. They're a great melee assassination unit, so pairing them with a great melee assassination feat is predictably fantastic. As a special note, you don't need to spend all of the rage tokens on a model at once. So you can spend a rage token on a kayazy A, have him advance and attack, spend a rage token on kayazy “B,” have him advance and attack the same model as kayazy A and benefit from gang. Then you can go back to kayazy A and spend additional rage tokens, letting his second and third attack benefit from gang. Here's the rules-forum thread on that:

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...spending-order

Kayazy Eliminators: Like the assassins, they do well with epic Butcher. I actually prefer the regular unit. Since the eliminators can't combo-strike with feat tokens they don't hit as hard on feat turn. They also drop substantially in power when one of them gets picked off by a blast, etc. On the plus side, they get acrobatics all of the time which includes during the feat, whereas the assassins only get it on their mini-feat turn and then only during their activation, not for the feat advance. The eliminators are definitely a good unit, and a good buy with Butcher2, but I usually take the assassins first and then something that can stand up to AOE spam. The eliminators are more likely to make the list at 50 points for me.

Widowmakers: These guys are great for generating feat tokens and for spot removal of infantry that might be blocking charge lanes. If your opponent is spreading out his infantry in order to avoid having Butcher march through them, it should only take a couple widowmaker bullets to open a path for your assassin of choice to waltz through on the way to the enemy caster. These guys are one of my top picks for non-theme epic Butcher lists.

Greylord Ternion: These guys are good in an epic Butcher list. All three of their abilities are incredibly useful. Giving Orsus a cloud gives him a respectable DEF against range/magic, and can help him survive assassination runs. I've had it be a difference maker more than once. Their spray is great for generating feat tokens and nailing backline support that would have been hard to get to with melee. And ice cage can make it easier to assassinate in ideal circumstances, but is also effective against moderate defense 'jacks and beasts if you need to play attrition. They're making it into more and more of my lists since they feel like have 3 mini-Gormans.

Boomhowler and Co.: One of the game’s premier tar-pit units, they fill the same role with Butcher 2. Between their super-tough and ARM high enough to shrug blast damage they’re tough to remove. Their medium bases are especially nice since they can screen Butcher. Since they’re single-wound, they won’t do so with quite as much staying power as MOW, but they’ll still require resources that could be going into Butcher himself and can cause a headache for your opponent. The only thing they lose from not being faction models is access to feat tokens. Since they’re not going to be your offensive powerhouses anyway, that’s not really a big deal. They can bring some defense to an otherwise offensively geared caster. Not really my preferred way to play him, but they’re certainly viable.

Men-O-War Shocktroopers: With their medium bases and their ability to absorb multiple shots, these guys can provide a decent screen for Butcher2. That said, I find that they are too slow to play the aggressive style that you want. Hiding Butcher behind their shield wall means that he's going to be a long ways from the action, and running them means that they're not too difficult to remove. I'm not a very big fan of them in general, though, so if you like them they might be worth a go.

Men-O-War Demolition Corps: I don't actually own these guys, but they could make a decent screen for Butch with decent offensive output to boot. They won't get to use either of their special attacks with feat tokens, though, so keep that in mind. I think the fact that they compare poorly to the Great Bears is just amplified with Butcher. I'll try them regardless, and update this section when I do.

Winterguard Rifle Corps: I've run these guys with Kovnik Joe a few times. My thought was that I could use their covering fire template to force enemy infantry to bunch up, reducing their ability to avoid epic Butcher's death-nado. With accuracy from Joe, they can generate feat tokens pretty reliably. That said, I've never been very impressed with them in the field. I've found that I usually just want to start shooting with them rather than using the template, since I'm usually playing really aggressive. Plus, paying 10 points for a unit that only does anti-infantry seems inefficient in and eButcher list. I think you're better off paying the 4 points for widowmakers and having another unit of doom reavers, Great Bears, etc.

[jdeckert]

Solos

War dog: He’s an auto-include for me with Butcher2. Helps protect from melee assassination, immunity to free strikes helps Butcher get to where he can give the most damage, and counter-charge isn’t bad either. Just make sure you keep him away from Fenris and the reavers, since he’ll get scared pretty easily. He really only makes a big difference in one game out of three for me, but when he does it can be game-changing for a very low price.

Fenris: One of the best solos to run with Butcher. Thanks to berserk and impact attacks, he can clear infantry. He hits really hard, too, so sending him against a heavy target is great. Silence for doom reavers can be very helpful. But the big deal is that he’s got a 26” threat range under the feat, the best we’ve got. Since he already hits hard and accurately, he’ll probably be getting 3 feat tokens in just about every game. He’s racked up more caster kills for me than any other model in my collection.

Man-O-War Drakuhn: A little slower, but harder hitting and more durable than Fenris. If I’m not running doom reavers (which I usually am), I reach for this guy first. With his large base, steady, and counter-charge, he makes a great body-guard for Butcher until feat turn, when he just unloads.

Yuri the Axe: Yuri's one of the best feat-assassins available. Great MAT, hard-hitting, and pathfinder. Pathfinder can be HUGE, as Fenris or the Drakuhn might have a hard time getting where they need to against armies that can generate rough terrain. I often bring him in the theme list for that kind of situation – put fury on him and give him three feat tokens and he'll usually get the job done.

Manhunters: Contrary to Yuri, I don't bring these guys very often. They're good melee assassins, but having two initials rather than one big stick hampers their output on feat turn. Not a bad choice by any means, but not the first model I reach for.

Gorman di Wulfe: I put him in the “Keep Butcher Alive” camp. Cheap smoke screen that can help out against ranged/magic assassinations. He can also generate feat tokens or clear charge lanes, and black oil is great as always. If you can somehow get that on a caster, the rest of the list should have no problem sealing the deal.

Ogrun Bokur: Another anti-ranged assassination piece. I find myself using as often him for offense or blocking charge/trample lanes rather than shield guard. I think he's a good buy due to his combination of defensive and offensive utility.

Saxon Orrik: He's always great for handing out pathfinder. This is particularly useful in a melee-centric epic Butcher list, even on the big man himself. Sure he's got boundless charge, but I can't tell you how many times I've wound up with three focus and wishing I could cast both ravager and boundless charge on Butcher. Okay, I can tell you - several. Pathfinder's obviously super useful for many of Butcher's favorites: doom reavers, Fenris, the Drakuhn, and kayazy.

[jdeckert]

The Theme List
Butcher2's theme list is possibly the best way to play him. Some argue it's the only way to play him. It definitely emphasizes the all-out, go for the throat, unstoppable tide of destruction that defines his play style. Basically everything said about Butcher2 earlier is true in the theme list, times ten.

You can run a berserker and seven units of doom reavers at 35 points. While that setup can definitely be effective, it's not my preferred option. In terms of competitive play, I doubt anyone can run that much infantry efficiently given the new time limits. I know I couldn't do it even under the old time limits. In terms of casual play, you're likely going to either annihilate your opponent or run into a hard counter. Neither of those result in a particularly fun game, especially when you get the added frustration of trying to maneuver all those models around each other without jamming yourself up. Of course, measuring fun is entirely subjective and maybe there are some crazy speed freaks out there who could run this list in hardcore without any problems.

The list that I've ultimately settled on at 35 is:

Kommander Orsus Zoktavir
-Devastator
-War dog
4x Doom Reavers
1x Greylord Escort
Fenris
Yuri

As an alternative to the 42 doom reaver setup, I think it has a lot more answers. You can tackle a unit of iron fleshed kayazy with the devastator, you've got two great assassins. Yuri can fly 18” across rough terrain under the feat and hit even harder than Fenris. The war dog gives you at least one piece of defensive tech. I've had Butcher2 survive charging titans and centurions as a result (though I wouldn't recommend it).

Originally I ran a spriggan instead of the devastator, and another escort instead of Yuri. I switched to the devastator after running into a pIrusk list with Nyss and Kayazy in the finals of a 1 list tournament. I realized the importance of some pathfinder in prepping for Asphyxious2, but any inhospitable ground caster could give you the same problem. Since he's got wounds, Yuri is also helpful against things like covering fire templates. His ARM is still low enough that its a gamble, but he can still get through them more reliably than a doom reaver. I've also experimented with a list that had two devastators and one less unit of reavers and no Yuri. It proved pretty effective, since most lists can handle lots of infantry or lots of armor, but not both. I think it may have been a little overkill, though, and not quite as good as this one.

I did win a 1 list format tournament with the theme list. For a lengthy report, you can take a look at this thread. I also kept pretty good notes on my first 20 or so games with him, so if you're crazy into battle reports and want to see them, send me a PM.

[Col_Festus]

Very awesome! I've just started using him and after 2 games alone he's my favorite Khador caster.

The one solo I'll recommend you add is Saxon. His pathfinder can be invaluable.

[PG_hisshers]

This is a great write up! May Lola bless you and keep you.

[jdeckert]

Very awesome! I've just started using him and after 2 games alone he's my favorite Khador caster.

The one solo I'll recommend you add is Saxon. His pathfinder can be invaluable.

Yup, he's awesome! And yours is a lot prettier than mine, your painting is fantastic. Definitely a good call on Saxon, I added him.

This is a great write up! May Lola bless you and keep you.

And also with you. Thanks!

[PG_Duckboy]

Damn, very nice write up. You should post this in damek as well.

[Joasht]

Great article!

I think Widowmakers deserve an entry though, as they have a good chance to generate rage tokens.

[jdeckert]

Damn, very nice write up. You should post this in damek as well.

Thanks! Duck is a fellow eButcher player who I actually played against in the tourney finals I mentioned. It was a heck of a game, as most of ours turn out to be.

Great article!

I think Widowmakers deserve an entry though, as they have a good chance to generate rage tokens.

Wow, that's a bad oversight. I love those guys with Butcher2, and totally meant to include them. Added!

[Melfuaru]

My head hurts from incorrect grammar...

[jdeckert]

My head hurts from incorrect grammar...

I went back through and tried to make some improvements. I know I use commas excessively. That's a bad habit of mine. Let me know if there are other mistakes you see, but I suspect that some of it is just due to the casual, colloquial style of forum-writing.

[Mindless]

Thanks for the write-up. Definitely had some good suggestions for me as a eButcher player.

[PtotheRice]

So I've been searching for a Khador caster to start playing other than Hark.... I think this convinced me! Awesome write up my friend.

[Hoc Est Bellum]

Nice write up for one of my favourite casters!

A few points to add to this:

- The Demolisher is pretty nifty; the ability to project the blasts that extra 8" can really help. Girded isn't too much use, though. The issue I find with both the clamjacks is when you need to hit the burners and get up the field, you have to give them a focus to do it, which might not always be an option. Any other jacks you can use your free charges and tramples to get +3", but the clams open up when you do that*. However, this can be mitigated by...

- The Koldun Lord. I always take one with eButch. With eButch's abilities, the extra focus is always handy for the jacks, and can translate to as much as an extra P+S 22 attack. Nothing wants to be on the end of that! But yeah, if nothing else it really helps mitigate the random focus.

- Drago is a really handy jack to have. Don't worry about the Ravager trick too much, as it can be tricky to pull off. Try Fury instead, for 3x P+S 19 attacks at MAT9 for no focus... and only 8pts.

- IFP deserve a mention. It might seem like they're outclassed by Doomies and Kayazy, but relentless charge and defensive formation can give them a huge amount of mobility. 9" charge + 6" Def. Form., plus a few of them getting feat tokens = 21" move, 23" attack range. As an absolutely massive plus, if you have a few spare feat tokens, try chucking pairs of them on IFP for move + boosted attack. Boosted attack and crit KD are beautiful, especially if you've given the unit Fury for P+S 16.

- Great Bears. Nuff said.

Also, with regards to the Bokur, wasn't Shield Guard recently re-errata'd?

EDIT: *This is totally wrong, and I apologise.I should check more carefully...

[jdeckert]

- The Demolisher is pretty nifty; the ability to project the blasts that extra 8" can really help. Girded isn't too much use, though. The issue I find with both the clamjacks is when you need to hit the burners and get up the field, you have to give them a focus to do it, which might not always be an option. Any other jacks you can use your free charges and tramples to get +3", but the clams open up when you do that*. However, this can be mitigated by...

Glad to hear that it's been working for you. Should have had my Gencon ninja pick one up, guess I'll wait another month or so... And yeah, charging works with these guys, as you caught.

- The Koldun Lord. I always take one with eButch. With eButch's abilities, the extra focus is always handy for the jacks, and can translate to as much as an extra P+S 22 attack. Nothing wants to be on the end of that! But yeah, if nothing else it really helps mitigate the random focus.

I can definitely see the use here, and have run one with him a few times. I should use him a bit more.

- Drago is a really handy jack to have. Don't worry about the Ravager trick too much, as it can be tricky to pull off. Try Fury instead, for 3x P+S 19 attacks at MAT9 for no focus... and only 8pts.

Yeah, it's a pretty good 'jack for the price. Focus-efficiency with Butcher2 makes him a good piece.

- IFP deserve a mention. It might seem like they're outclassed by Doomies and Kayazy, but relentless charge and defensive formation can give them a huge amount of mobility. 9" charge + 6" Def. Form., plus a few of them getting feat tokens = 21" move, 23" attack range. As an absolutely massive plus, if you have a few spare feat tokens, try chucking pairs of them on IFP for move + boosted attack. Boosted attack and crit KD are beautiful, especially if you've given the unit Fury for P+S 16.

I've theorymachined about this a little, need to get them on the table.

- Great Bears. Nuff said.

Indeed. Shouldn't have missed them

Also, with regards to the Bokur, wasn't Shield Guard recently re-errata'd?

Yup, thankfully! Fixed.

Thanks for the feedback/additions!

I plan on adding Conquest next. I've heard people say good things about him with Butcher2, but I don't see it. He was dead weight in the game I played with him, anyone else have experience/thoughts on this pairing?

[Mindless]

Only run eButcher with Conquest two or three matches and those haven't really been able to tell me if it's good or bad.

The good stuff: Fury. Conquest already has pathetic DEF (as with all Khador 'jacks) so losing another 1 point of DEF doesn't matter. +3 on the attack on the other hand, now that's big. Against most other 'jacks you'll be doing attacks that are Dice +7 in raw damage, even more against light jacks. Nothing will break a 'jack as fast as Conquest, except maybe the Butcher himself. Either way, two boosted attacks with the fists should take pretty much any 'jack out of commission.

Boundless Charge seems to be a good way of increasing Conquest threat range a bit despite the fact that Pathfinder is lost on him since he already has it. Having a 11" threat with the big guy is pretty neat I think. I haven't been able to see my friends reaction to this yet but I assume they won't like when Conquest suddenly wrecks the front line from half the table away with a Sweep or just wrecks it with regular attacks. With Conferred Rage giving free charges and power attacks, there's a possibility of doing some real damage with this I think. Killing something with eButch would put him at 13" threat and that's pretty damn big.

Another plus is that Conquest is huge, allowing you to screen eButcher until you feel like bringing him into the fight. At nearly the same speed, I think they should stick close to eachother.

Negatives? Conquests point cost. Sure, most of the time we don't want to be running more than one 'jack with Khador and especially with eButcher due to his unpredictable nature but sometimes bringing the good old Spriggan + whatever you feel like will bring far more utility to the table than the massive gun-platform that is Conquest. For the same cost you can bring two non-character high-cost 'jacks to the table and for a couple more points you get Beast. I guess it really comes down to what you prefer playing with.

Conquest feels quite focus-effective despite his low RAT begging for boosts because the sheer number of guns on him means you will be getting a few kills with either direct hits or on scatter. In other words, even on turns with poor focus rolls for eButcher you'll probably manage.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts at the moment. I'll get back to you once I've played a few more games with them.

[Sand20go]

So I tried eButcher a couple of weeks back against another Khador player. He was playing pButcher and a list that was mostly Shocktroopers, Jacks and a think a couple of solos. I played a balanced list (KA, WM, Jacks, solos).

I won but I found him "meh" compared to the utility I can get from pButcher's feat. I would be interested in hearing about how people play him against a low model count/high arm+multi wound list. I can clearly see why he would just be beyond overjoyed to see a Cryx spam list put down against him - but think he is sorta a second class caster against the set up above.

[jdeckert]

So I tried eButcher a couple of weeks back against another Khador player. He was playing pButcher and a list that was mostly Shocktroopers, Jacks and a think a couple of solos. I played a balanced list (KA, WM, Jacks, solos).

I won but I found him "meh" compared to the utility I can get from pButcher's feat. I would be interested in hearing about how people play him against a low model count/high arm+multi wound list. I can clearly see why he would just be beyond overjoyed to see a Cryx spam list put down against him - but think he is sorta a second class caster against the set up above.

Well, Butcher2 should out-threat multi-wound infantry for the most part and has no problem tearing through them himself. His theme list does really well against that sort of thing, since it hits hard and jack/beast spam can have a hard time versus infantry spam. The difficult thing about the pButcher matchup is that he can be super hard to assassinate in melee. Just remember that Butcher2 out-threats Butcher1, and if he can walk through infantry to get there on a turn where you have a good focus roll you should be able to get the job done.

[Sand20go]

Well, Butcher2 should out-threat multi-wound infantry for the most part and has no problem tearing through them himself. His theme list does really well against that sort of thing, since it hits hard and jack/beast spam can have a hard time versus infantry spam. The difficult thing about the pButcher matchup is that he can be super hard to assassinate in melee. Just remember that Butcher2 out-threats Butcher1, and if he can walk through infantry to get there on a turn where you have a good focus roll you should be able to get the job done.

How I got him was classic (and essentially the above). When I did my assassination charge I did well but pButcher still had 2 points left and was looking to wack his epic-self back into oblivion. Little did he anticipate 2 KAs nearby walking over 6 inches, ganging up and taking those 2 points away ;-)

[Hoc Est Bellum]

I would be interested in hearing about how people play him against a low model count/high arm+multi wound list. I can clearly see why he would just be beyond overjoyed to see a Cryx spam list put down against him - but think he is sorta a second class caster against the set up above

It's certainly not optimal... The two big problems with fewer, chunkier foes are a) harder to trigger Conferred Rage's awesomeness, and b) fewer available feat tokens.

There are a few things you can do, though.

a) I tend to run eButch a bit jack heavy (often 3 jacks at 35pts), so I have no qualms about sacrificing a Jack to draw something into eButch charge range. At that point it really doesn't matter what you're facing; unless it's a colossal, it's going down.

If, however, you're only running a couple of jacks, you probably don't want to give your opponent freebies. Less jacks probably means more infantry, so the plan here is hot-swapping Fury. Make sure you've got a couple of good targets for it: KAs work well, as do KEs, IFP, Drakhun, Great Bears, MoW... you know, everything. All of them are capable of killing heavies on a charge, and most heavies will have issues dealing with that much infantry. Bait them in, take them down. The only times you'll hit problems is when you roll 1 for focus.

b) The feat tokens issue is not, in fact, really an issue. Even the heaviest armies take some form of support, and you barely need to kill anything to make his feat a bit scary. Things like the Drakhun and the Eliminators (preferably with fury in each case) will mess up most casters with only a few tokens. 3xPOW17 WM reach attacks at MAT8? Having started 20+" away? Yeah, we're done here...
Easiest way to make sure you get something from the feat is to pack a unit like Widowmakers. Mobile, accurate and deadly, with good threat projection

[bildo]

What are people's thoughts on the silly elf with ebutcher?

[Trihnicus]

Holy Necro batman

[Hoc Est Bellum]

I think the necros are given leeway if the thread comes from a link in the Tactica sticky. I could be wrong.

As to the question: He's not a bad choice. The free Fury upkeep is basically what you're using him for, and occasionally range on boundless charge or ravager. But the free upkeep is immense; now, even if you roll a 1 for focus you have enough to cast almost all your spells whilst keeping Fury up. It allows for much more flexibility.

I wouldn't say that he's auto-include, though. The War Dog is still amazing for eButcher due to his need to play forwards.

[jdeckert]

I think the necros are given leeway if the thread comes from a link in the Tactica sticky. I could be wrong.

As to the question: He's not a bad choice. The free Fury upkeep is basically what you're using him for, and occasionally range on boundless charge or ravager. But the free upkeep is immense; now, even if you roll a 1 for focus you have enough to cast almost all your spells whilst keeping Fury up. It allows for much more flexibility.

I wouldn't say that he's auto-include, though. The War Dog is still amazing for eButcher due to his need to play forwards.

I agree 100%.

[Nitz]

No doubt the main reason you take him is for the auto-upkeep which clearly helps with his biggest handicap, the variable focus.

I would submit though that it's also a benefit to have a range 10 AOE 3 POW 13 Ravenger spell with Hand of Fate on it. That's not a bad little synergy either, especially since after his feat turn he should get 2 shots at casting it as he should be at an auto-focus of 7. Sure, you may want to camp and only pop off one, but if you have a caster or lock in range, that can be big trouble for them.