Cygnar v. Colossals

[leo_neil316]

just because i can (since i play ret as my main faction and cygnar my second) i will rub this in.

Step one: apply mage hunter strike force
step two: smile wide while your min mhsf who is man strong at 5 pts rip a 20 pts colossal warjack to bitz.

Lets see. Min magehunters are a six man unit.

The stormwall will likely be ARM 18 and DEF 10.

So the magehunters will likely hit 5 times.

Assuming jack hunter works, which it likely will, the magehunters are getting 3d6 -8 on damage. So an average of 2 to 3 damage per magehunter.

So, even on the high end those magehunters will get 20 damage maybe a round? I mean that's swinging the damage a few points in the magehunters favour.

Stormwall will be 1) repairable and 2) somewhere around 60 boxes.

Yeah, min magehunters I'm not caring about so much. Or full magehunters.

And again, we have no idea what the offence on this thing will be. If those pods do what I think they do, magehunters might never get near it.

[themocaw]

I wonder if Taryn will gain a niche when Colossals drop? Shadow Shot could open up a fairly big shooting vector if used on a huge-based model, especially one as expensive and tough as a Colossal.

[Stephan Garmark]

But don't forget that he's taking up a lot more of the front line himself. So 3" to either side really doesn't allow that many more models to make use of Positive Charge unless your opponent is bunched up like a complete ninny. Not saying he won't be an excellent target for that spell once he gets stuck in, just that I doubt he'll make it dramatically more effective.

Wasn't there a rumor that said he had 4" reach? If so just have him stand in second line, PC him and have his entire base +6" of +2 +2, I don't think that's bad at all

[Sanguinary Dan]

Wasn't there a rumor that said he had 4" reach? If so just have him stand in second line, PC him and have his entire base +6" of +2 +2, I don't think that's bad at all

It will really benefit Sword Knights more than anyone else. Those within 3" would get Flank & Positive Charge and those within 4" would still get Flank. Imagine the damage they will do in combo. Though if that 4" reach is a Thresher...

[Stephan Garmark]

It will really benefit Sword Knights more than anyone else. Those within 3" would get Flank & Positive Charge and those within 4" would still get Flank. Imagine the damage they will do in combo. Though if that 4" reach is a Thresher...

Thats just wrong

[Sardonic Artery]

Hmm, I see a list of errata coming for Taryn, Gorman, etc.

[iksander]

Hmm, I see a list of errata coming for Taryn, Gorman, etc.

Somehow I doubt it will be errata. I expect more rules, in the vein of "immovable object".

[Ysthrall]

The trouble is that warjackness is a near-infintely shaded spectrum.

At one end we have: everything on warjacks applies to colossals; disruption will neuter them.
At the other end: Nothing on warjacks applies to colossals; no-one in game has any synergy with these things, at all. Not good.

And in between, at ANY point in between, you'll have some things that seem like they should apply, that don't, and some things that feel like they shouldn't, that do.

I wish the PP team luck and clear judgement in deciding where in that maze of grey to draw the thin red line of arbitration.

[dbgoldberg323]

The trouble is that warjackness is a near-infintely shaded spectrum.

At one end we have: everything on warjacks applies to colossals; disruption will neuter them.
At the other end: Nothing on warjacks applies to colossals; no-one in game has any synergy with these things, at all. Not good.

And in between, at ANY point in between, you'll have some things that seem like they should apply, that don't, and some things that feel like they shouldn't, that do.

I wish the PP team luck and clear judgement in deciding where in that maze of grey to draw the thin red line of arbitration.

Agreed. From what I understand, most people believe the Battle Engines are fairly balanced and have thus far not altered the meta. Also, haven't they said they've done a lot of playtesting and fine-tuning for these things? Either way, I certainly don't envy the job of designing the Colossal rules.

And after looking at that Mountain King Trollblood Colossal, I REALLY dread playing against it. How many extra attacks and heals will be available to that thing? @_@

Though I do like the thought of the whole "king of the monsters" fights that will happen this summer lololol. Gatormen Colossal vs the Stormwall anyone?

[Halfhoot]

Though I do like the thought of the whole "king of the monsters" fights that will happen this summer lololol. Gatormen Colossal vs the Stormwall anyone?

Look on the bright side... at least it's too big to fit in a swamp pit.

[phreaker187]

Any tourney list is packing 2 hunters now a days that should soften it up a little. As far as killing it goes everyone will have a hard time, which is the whole point of running one.

[Humeriousdiscord]

Well, I tried using a colossal. With the crappy made up rules I posted on another thread.
1st game vs Skorne, he said "I can kill that thing in one turn with Molik Karn." I said, "I doubt it", he said "I proabably can, you know..." so my colossal (and 2 loaded Chargers, it being eNemos feat turn) shot Karn to death before he engaged.
2nd game vs Trolls, the Colossal did next to nothing, screwed up by a combination of Windwall, IronFlesh+Smoke clouds and Submerged.

But don't think of it as this one huge jack, think of it as two heavies. I can't think of any way for it to be immune to shooting (if Safe Passage from the choir works on it. I'll scream), and it's hardly going to hide behind anything, or rampage into our deployment zone by turn 2. So I think we'll get a fair few shots at it. My two units of Long Gunners are ready and waiting

hmmm....strakov stealthing a conquest......

[themocaw]

hmmm....strakov stealthing a conquest......

Colossals can't get Stealth.

[Edwars]

Personally, I am not worried as we have some great tricks that work on heavies so will work on colossals.

1. Hunter spam
2. Shock shield/hammer - colossals are immune to disruption but I've not heard that they are immune to this
3. Stormblades - great many charging pow 15's and more pow 14's
4. CRA/CMA
5. Focus loaded beatsticks - hammersmiths stormclads etc
6. Sword knights - flank + charge + other (positive charge, harm, etc)
7. Fox hole - it fits thus will not block LOS
8. Overcharge - focus loaded and strong Stryker will have a blast
9. Forgeguard - as faction (Murdoch) or not, these little guys pack a big punch.

[Oniwasabi]

Unless there's been some extra intentional misinformation going on, Colossals ARE immune to cortex damaging affects as well as disruption, so #2 is out. The real question on that front is whether it will only be Cortex damage immunity or anything that does specific system damage immunity.

[Edwars]

Can someone point out for me where it has been stated colossals are immune to cortex damage?

I have read that they are immune to disruption, have battle engine rules, are immovable objects, no stealth, no advance deployment, no incorporeal, etc, but aside form forum doomsaying I've not seen that they are immune to cortex damage.



Personally I think If PP are worried about special damage killing the effectiveness of colossals they should make them immune to death chill, stationary, and other such rules.

[Hint of Insanity]

Ok so no disruption or cortex dmg to colossal jacks. They are also immune to continuous fire, Continuous corrosion, and frozen too right....

[leo_neil316]

Personally I think If PP are worried about special damage killing the effectiveness of colossals they should make them immune to death chill, stationary, and other such rules.

Well since they're on huge bases I would assume that they're immune to stationary, since battle engines are.

[PG_Caecus Scius]

Siege... not for the feat, but for foxhole. Everyone on every other forum is talking about how they will be using this to screen their caster since it can't be slammed or TKd, or knocked down etc.

Also Tayrn for everyone else who isn't siege.

Basically, if Collosals become prevelant in many lists it does shift the meta. Long gunners become worth their points again as they can drop 2 big hits on it from serious range. Looking at videos, and everything else available- the Konquest is range 12-14 on it's main gun. So you should easily have range on it, as well as any of the others. I doubt the PoM one will have guns proper, probably be a big castigator.


Also by taking a 20 point jack- they are lowering the amount of infantry they take, which means you don't need as much removal for it.

[bouncymischa]

I doubt the PoM one will have guns proper, probably be a big castigator.

Considering the art for the Protectorate Colossal shows it spewing missiles and flamethrowers... I suppose those technically may not count as "guns" but it will likely have some form of ranged attacks, unlike the Castigator.

[PG_Caecus Scius]

Yeah I was thinking it just did an AOE around it, like the castigator and have probably flamethrowers. Point is, none of the other collosals appear to have anything with much range, and none appear to have much speed either. You can easily get off two turns of double tap CRA goodness.

[Lanz]

Point is, none of the other collosals appear to have anything with much range, and none appear to have much speed either. You can easily get off two turns of double tap CRA goodness.

Those rockets will likely have a 16" range. They don't look like Skyhammers, but they're still protectorate rockets, which so far all share the same 16" range (redeemer, sunburst, deliverers). However, it's also possible that they'll have Inaccurate. Even if the judicator is speed 4, that's still a 20" threat range with an AoE barraging weapon that will likely decimate infantry.

[Jake the Dog]

Okay, I gotta ask.

How exactly do you think the stormwall could fix our infantry generally being over-priced and underpowered compared to other options, forcing us to use mercs instead? Or Cygnar's expensive anti-jack tech being pretty darn irrelevant due to half the factions not using jacks ever and increasing numbers of models that fulfil the roles of jacks that are immune to our anti-jack tech (Like colossals!)

'Cause from what I've seen, that's the main issues people have with cygnar. I'm not agreeing with them. I'm just wondering how on earth the stormwall, regardless of how awesome it will be, would in any way address those?

I can see Stormwall doing a Lighting buff similar to a Stormstrider. It could make Storm Infantry extremely effective.

[jackbnimble218]

[QUOTE=Caecus Scius;1414833]Siege... not for the feat, but for foxhole. Everyone on every other forum is talking about how they will be using this to screen their caster since it can't be slammed or TKd, or knocked down etc.

Also Tayrn for everyone else who isn't siege."





I'm pretty sure the giant bases are slightly larger than the 5" foxhole can drop. So that won't work. And taryn only clears line of sight for friendly faction. So that's also a no go

[Edwars]

[QUOTE=jackbnimble218;1415747]

Siege... not for the feat, but for foxhole. Everyone on every other forum is talking about how they will be using this to screen their caster since it can't be slammed or TKd, or knocked down etc.

Also Tayrn for everyone else who isn't siege."





I'm pretty sure the giant bases are slightly larger than the 5" foxhole can drop. So that won't work. And taryn only clears line of sight for friendly faction. So that's also a no go

the120mm base of battle engines (thus collosals/gargantuans) is about 3mm smaller than the 5" foxhole. So this trick will work (and I've done it to wraith engines many times)

[RidetheLightning]

I'm with most of the other players on this topic. I think the Stormwall and collosals in general are going to be awesome! I'm not worried so much about being able to kill one as I am excited to try! Just another obstacle for Cygnar to overcome! The ones that amaze and intrigue me the most so far (besides Stormwall) are the Retribution and Protectorate! The concept art was so awesome on those two!

[Ysthrall]

Hmm. I haven't seen the concept art for the Retribution one (Hyperion, right?) but it does look like their anime-refugee look is getting away from them. The Protectorate one... uh... looks like a flaming robotic godzilla or similar. Nicely in character with PoM, but hopefully fairly short ranged. I believe the Cryx model turned up in a video a while back (the one with the awful voiceover who mispronounced everything.), and frankly, I was NOT impressed.

The Khadoran model is... big, ominous and chunky. The Stormwall looks comparitivly athletic and dangerous, and full of tricks. I think we might have got the best of the lot.

[Ender101]

I agree with Ysthrall, based purely on looks the Cygnar one is my favorite (without the bias, honest!). The Stormwall and the Big Red define the look of what a colossal should be to me, everything great about the faction rolled up into one giant robot of stompy death. There were two routes for the Cryx colossal to go, Giant Slayer or Giant Crab Jack, and sadly I've never been that big a fan of crab jacks, but that's a personal thing and I know people who love the look and the Kraken. My brother is a merc player and he's stoked for the Galleon, though he's really cheap so I don't know if he'll buy it or not.

As for taking one down, I think that the only one we'll really have a tough time against will be mirror match ups. A lot of Cygnar's heavy hitters are lightning based, so having that immunity will make it difficult to remove. I suppose if you took some hunters and a defender you could whittle it down before applying stormblades directly to the forehead, but I don't see them surviving that long, I know I would make them public enemy #1 if I saw them on the other side of the field, or just walk away from them, they're slow. All the guns tacked onto the colossals look suitably scary to me.

But honestly, we just don't know what they're capable of yet, we have some hints from the last NQ and the preview video, but until the next NQ its up in the air.

What we do know: (Quotes from NQ 41 pg. 37, available in NQ Plus. http://files.privateerpress.com/nq/nqplus/NQ41.pdf)

-Are warjacks 'just really big ones'
-Are deployed as Battle Engines
-Can be targeted like Battle Engines
-Have a rule called, Great Machine, part of which states: Cannot gain Stealth, Concealment, Incorporeal or Advance Deployment
-Cannot be placed and 'They also don’t move outside their normal movement. On the upside, your opponent cannot move them at all.'
-'They cannot be disrupted, they cannot be controlled by outside magic, and they positively will not stop until you are dead!'
-Have left and right arcs
-Have a pair of Super Structure boxes (how these work we don't know yet)
-Have two new power attacks: Thresher for left and/or right arc, and can slam without moving

[midas]

Trampling would not be such a good idea with the colossals, since you have to end your movement where no models are, according to the rules.
P55: "It moves through any small-based model in its path, but there must be room for the trampling model's base at the end of the movement."

[Prince of Wales]

Dominic. Darius.

[Sardonic Artery]

We'll see. There's a Ret player in my meta who thinks that dual hunters give Cygnar the best chance of taking down colossals (he poo-pooed 2 x max long gunners + UA, especially since they're twice the price of 2 x hunters).

[Varius]

We'll see. There's a Ret player in my meta who thinks that dual hunters give Cygnar the best chance of taking down colossals (he poo-pooed 2 x max long gunners + UA, especially since they're twice the price of 2 x hunters).

Hunters will do what? Dice - 5 probably? So 6 damage? Even boosted it will take 4-5 full turns to kill it with hunters, if he ignores them. A couple mechanics could keep up with that no problem, while he deals with the rest of your army.

They will be game changing. Hopefully the change will be for the better.

[Bladestorm]

Hunters will do what? Dice - 5 probably? So 6 damage? Even boosted it will take 4-5 full turns to kill it with hunters, if he ignores them. A couple mechanics could keep up with that no problem, while he deals with the rest of your army.

They will be game changing. Hopefully the change will be for the better.

Supposedly dice -4 on the Konquest, based on a new battle report. so possibly as high as dice -3 on the lesser armoured one(s).

[Sanguinary Dan]

I wonder if all the Collosals will have anti-personnel point defenses like the Conquest seems to have? The Stormwall has the dual gatlings that could easily produce multiple covering fire templates. The Judicator has flame throwers. Flame walls anyone? The hideous looking Cryx thingie has that multi barreled nose gun and garbage disposal tipped tentacles. No clue.

Punishment for all those damned infantry units that turn heavy Warjacks into scrap markers in a single round of melee. Wouldn't that be lovely? A reason to use jacks again.

[katadder]

dice -4 hunters marshalled by the dude and some deadeye off a caster can mean 4d6-4 damage. thats how you do colossals or anything else armoured.

[dbgoldberg323]

dice -4 hunters marshalled by the dude and some deadeye off a caster can mean 4d6-4 damage. thats how you do colossals or anything else armoured.

Deadeye is for the attack roll, not damage. Marshalling can only give it a "boost" equivalent, so it would only be 3D6-4 which is about 6.

[lobachevskii]

Deadeye is for the attack roll, not damage. Marshalling can only give it a "boost" equivalent, so it would only be 3D6-4 which is about 6.

I'd guess he's using Deadeye to increase the chances of getting a critical from critical brutal shot and boosting the damage roll.

[dbgoldberg323]

I'd guess he's using Deadeye to increase the chances of getting a critical from critical brutal shot and boosting the damage roll.

Oh ok. Well in that case that's some serious pain, especially more than once from two or three Hunters, or Temporal Acceleration.

[lobachevskii]

Oh ok. Well in that case that's some serious pain, especially more than once from two or three Hunters, or Temporal Acceleration.

Sadly you'll usually only have the one Gun Mage UA, so you've got a maximum of two Hunters pulling off this trick. Plus multiple Deadeyes quickly adds up.

I'd throw Aiyana and Holt in for Kiss of Lyliss, which is almost another D6, but for every model targetting the Colossal and for fewer resources expended. Also your Hunters can now snipe instead of going for Critical Brutals ... so they're a little safer.

[leo_neil316]

So, the conquest is POW+STR 22.

That's higher than I was expecting. POW 20 stormwall?