Looking for advice against Legion

[kommander_redfinger]

I am still rather new with Skorne, and in my area are 3 legion players. I have started to collect a mix of models that I like, have read up on, and seem to fit a tool box type approach. I found the recent No Quarter Power and Progression to be very helpful as well.

So that being said, what are some good units against Legion? I have Preatorians, I like and have Reivers, picked up the billows crew, but that does not seem to be much use against Legion,less I misunderstand the use of those guys. I also own a good variety of other models as well, though I only have pMorghoul as a caster.

Basically I would like to hear why you think a unit is a good choice vs Legion...thanks in advance

Ashton

[x3tsniper]

What do the local legion players run? Mine generally run beast heavy and only rarely play around with infantry.

I like the gators with a task master. I have had 3 gator attacks kill an angelius before vs Saeryn. You should have seen the anger. I was like waah I only used half my attacks of a min unit. They then got to do more cleaning up afterwards. Nihilators with death march are super fun as well. Preatorians under Zaal can get any job done, but stand alone, I wouldn't want to match them against legion to much, due to their lack of reach. Side step will help you get the job done and move out of the way, and they do have the option to auto ping if you can hit.

Cetrati with access to defenders ward would probably give them fits. You wont alpha strike, but def 14 combined with armor 21 and 8 boxes will give them a head ache. Don't line up for a scythean(SP?) though.

I would definitely favor higher defense over armor against legion. They have trouble hitting models with their beast heavy lists without boosting. Immortals work great against some lists, but they would have trouble hitting and would be very easy for them to spray to death if they had the tools for it.


If you are going to play the reivers, I would suggest trying to blow up their lessers and support solos if you can.

[gaminguy]

I don't play against a lot of Legion so take this with a huge grain of salt, but what I've noticed is that their stuff is pretty fragile overall. They want to shoot and kite away and trying to catch them in melee is a pain, and the best games I've had against them were when I had a range heavy list myself: it makes it a lot harder for them to play the game they want when you can hit them back.

[Triumph Of Man]

So that being said, what are some good units against Legion? I have Preatorians, I like and have Reivers, picked up the billows crew, but that does not seem to be much use against Legion,less I misunderstand the use of those guys. I also own a good variety of other models as well, though I only have pMorghoul as a caster.

First I'd look into a new caster. pMorg doesn't play ball very well with infantry. A beast heavy pMorg list on the other hand is probably one of our best tools to tackle Saeryn thanks to his feat and the natural resilience of Skorne heavies. All round pMorg is a great caster against Legion as they usually wind up stacking beasts and Pain and Suffering hits them hard, however your heavy use of units doesn't work well with him because he can't support them.

[PG_Blitzer]

I play against legion a lot, Skorne has some very good answers to them. Pmorg beast heavy or the Xerxis brick is very hard for legion to deal with.

[kommander_redfinger]

Wow this is all great advice! One thing I failed to mention is that currently I am not playing any more than 25 points, I am stil learning game mechanics and I find that 35 points,at my skill level just takes too long.


@x3tsniper- most of the Legion players around here do run beast heavy, in fact I dont recall ever seeing a Legion infantry unit at the LHS. I have not really looked into Gatormen, other than what you described, do they do something different or better than what a Skorne unit can do? Or do you find you just like the model/unit and that is why you take them? Point taken on the Preatorians, however it seems that the Karax, that do have reach, would be a poorer choice of units, I have discovers this with my IFP's in Khador, the unit seems to loose effectiviness as the game advances do to all the combined effects you get form them, I see the Karax as being in the same boat. This is why I was thinking the Reivers would be a good choice, combined with the UA it seems as if they can last a bit longer in the game, and dish out some damage to soften things up a bit.

@gaminguy I have noticed the "kiting" thing against the guys I play with, but I will definitely keep an eye out for it, thanks for the heads up!

@Triumph of Man- what other caster would you recommend against Legion and why? I do own pHexeris, though I have yet to play him. Also, going back to my comment about playing pretty much at 25, it seems to me that going beast heavy at low points could create a set of problems all it's own. For example, going beast heavy and taking a Bronzeback, to me on paper seems silly, as that one model is almost half your army?

Onto a different question, I did not want to start a new thread though....

Molik Karn...

I have yet to field him or play against him, but I was reading up on his ability, and looking at casters with him, and it seems that in some ways he is a little bit of a glass hammer...Do people tend to use him as a single strike unit, or a hit and run unit? I ask because that animus that he has allows him the advance out of combat. This makes me think that Molik would be ideal for hit and run shenanigans....charge, hit and beat something up, then advance out of charge range, rinse repeat. I am sure this is more applicable with certain casters, spells and situations, but to me the idea seems to have merit and something I would like to look in too...is this old news, or a viable option to run a keep alive a very expensive beast.

Ashton

[Glasskin]

Molik is great as a hit-and-run warbeast, and a lot of our Warlocks can run him well that way. What I would do is support him with a ranged unit, or something else that can hit and run effectively (like an Archidon), and try to pressure your opponent into overcommitting and leaving their caster vulnerable to Karn's assassination threat (which is pretty huge as well).

PMorghoul is one of the best, actually, because of Admonition, Abuse, and Pain and Suffering. Abuse adds to SPD, which means a further "run" component from Fate Walker, and Admonition adds more out of turn retreating. The feat is all around good at stopping counterattacks as well.

Depending on what they bring, I wouldn't try it much against Legion though. Their ranged heavies will be able to draw a bead on Molik almost no matter what. It's usually better to engage them, then use Morghoul's feat to shut them down.

[EpicAstinos]

As a Legion and Skorne player, here are some things I've noticed:

Sentries are hard to kill and have the ability to lock down highly mobile Legion pieces. You need to play a little aggressively with him otherwise they can run circles around him.

Arcuarii are an interesting and fun choice. They are fairly tough, much better under Makeda, and their Drag ability offers you something fun. When I'm going for hit and run tactics with my Legion, placement is important. Arcuarii who can advance on a model and mess with overall army formation offer some interesting battlefield control. I usually use another unit as a as a wedge to separate a beast from the rest of the "herd," something like Praetorians or Cetrati which offer either durability, or enough numbers and attacks to dissuade another push in that direction.

The Bronzeback is a great front line model, but a huge target for an ambitious Carnivean/Scythean/Angelius. I like to use him a secondary or 1.5 wave model. Tying something up with a Sentry and then having the Bronzeback counter-charge in is largely successful and offers you some movement tricks to try to even the field.

Similarly, Gladiators offer Rush which can lessen the margin of mobility between the two factions.

As a Legion player I rely on mobility. As a Skorne player I prefer battlefield control. Legion offers more and stronger options for the ranged game, so I tend to focus on durability and melee counter-strike tactics with Skorne.

Some other thoughts I haven't tried:

The Savage's animus can give you an edge when attacking their high DEF models.
The Raider could work to snipe solos or lone lessers (in addition to basic support by softening up large targets), but to be really effective you'll want an Extoller. At this point you're starting to edge into the ranged/eyeless sight game where they have you severely outclassed. Consider this only for certain lists.

[kommander_redfinger]

@EpicAstinos- Thanks for that input, it is great to hear coming from someone who knows both factions in question. I know what you mean by "battlefield control" I have found with a lot of Skorne's abilities they really like to be able to control things as opposed to reacting to things. I had never really given Arcuarii a thought. Some of the "meta" that I have been reading here on the boards talk about the Cataphracts in general being sub-par so I had never given them a 2nd look, shame on me for believing everything the interwebs says However reading over that that idea of using the harpoon, I can definitely see how they could certainly disrupt things..This leads me to another point, that of having too many cool things to take! It is hard to know where to start!

@Glasskin- Thanks for sharing that feedback about Molik, it is good to know.

Ashton

[Soylent]

While this is more general advice, a lot can be applied to how you think out your list building and in game tactics so you don't feel like you have to build specifically to take on Legion which in a tournament can put you at a disadvantage.

Agonizer, especially against melee beast Legion lists. The Agonizer is like putting big pillows on the enemies fists and watch them struggle as they try to beat the crap out of you.

Know exactly what Eyeless Sight does and doesn't do. It does ignore stealth and concealment when making attacks and it ignores clouds and forests when determining LOS. It doesn't ignore intervening models and obstructions when determining LOS and it doesn't ignore cover when making attacks. With that in mind look for terrain features you can take advantage of and use your own models to block LOS.

It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle. -Sun Tzu

Know your army inside and out. Practice with it till it's like muscle memory to your brain. If you can borrow someones copy of FoH:Legion or stat cards then read them and know them. I don't know if GI Joe was right in saying knowing is half the battle when applied to WM/H but it is something and games tend to be won or lost by what you know of your enemy. The less your opponent surprises you, the better you'll do.

Speed. If there is an army out there that can match Legion's mobility, it's Skorne. Against ranged lists, you want to cover ground quickly, against melee you want to gauge threat ranges of yours and your opponents forces. Some lists like both Makedas and Morghoul1 can really cover ground.

Scenarios. Especially ranged Legion lists will have a little more trouble than melee Legion in taking and scoring on zones.

[DrParis]

I fight aginst Legion regularly, and by far the biggest threat I deal with is the Ravagore. His 15" AOE 3" shot is a huge pain for Skorne. It's strong enough really put the hurt on your titans, especially if suported by the right caster (I've seen a Lylith list put down a Bronzeback in one round of shooting). It's AOE is dangerous for infantry and casters, and it's long enough range to make it hard to get to without overextending.

If you run up against these guys, resist the urge to chase after it. You may be tempted to hit one of your titans with a bunch of speed buffs and go for the kill. This will end badly as you'll leave a hole in your line or lose a warbeast. What works best is to take a disposable unit or tar pit (read swordsmen, or Nihilators) and literally run them in there to tie up the Legion units. I literally just ran my Nihilators 12" to get them into melee range with as much of the Everblight list as possible, and it completely shut down my opponent. He didn't want to move his beasts and risk a bunch of boosted pow 13 hits (Legion beasts are more fragile than the look btw), and he couldn't manouver as effectively either.

Mobility is one of Legion's more subtle strong points. Keep your brick together and throw speedbumps to deny your oppont areas to manouver around your army so you can force him to slug it out with your beasts and infantry. Point for point, Legion can't really hold up to Skorne in a hand to hand brawl unless you have a mismatch (like a Titan against a big infantry unit).

Hope that helps!

[Scottl1]

The ravagore's shot is 14 inches, pow 15, and 3 in AOE. That this is awesome especially with elylyth's feat. That adds 4 inches and an additional. So 3 of them with striders, raptors etc can lay out some huge hurt and even better being all stealth. lol The best thing against such a list is play them in scenario not caster kill. In those cases it's a very brutal matchup. The raptors have a base movement of 9 and poisoned arrows with a rat of 9 with anyssa. Like I said it'd be far better to play in scenario since they can't just sit in the back, shoot and then reform back.

Overall to be ready for some of loe tricks I would certainly read the book, watch some youtube batreps and check out the loe forum. That can prepare you for the tricky stuff like the Vayl's slingshots, Saeryn's blight bomb, manifest destiny shredders, and other common tricks.

[Hasten]

Some of this has been said above, but I've had the best success with the following:

1) PLAY SCENARIOS. Seriously, it's imperative there be something to prevent endless kiting.

2) Bring at least some ranged models. I know it's tempting to maximize melee facebeatery (since we do it so well), but there are situations where you need the ability to reach out and touch the enemy. This is very important against things like flanking Striders or Raptors, or the aforementioned Ravagore buried deep in the opponent's line. Catapults are great against most Legion infantry, and a Cannoneer can serve you well. It has enough melee prowess to bring the hurt, and having an extra two or three ranged attacks over the course of the game can be a lifesaver. Venator Reivers can be very effective, but do bear in mind that Legion has access to stealth, which can leave these guys marginalized (e.g. Striders, Lylyth2 Shadow Pack). Another good option here is the Extoller, which will allow your warbeasts at least a measure of parity in the early-game with access to Eyeless Sight. Late-game, when they've had a chance to soak up a handful of souls, they can be surprisingly devastating against enemy warbeasts. Consider that the little 2-point solo is hitting at a whopping POW 18 fully boosted when attacking a Carnivean-chasis beast. I've found that I like embedding them in my screening infantry, where they can support second-rank Cannoneers, are protected by the infantry whilst harvesting their souls, and can provide a powerful shot to soften up enemy warbeasts.

3) When possible, jam up the opposing ranged models. Nihilators are our best tool for this, particularly if you can give them a defensive buff. Do be aware though if there are Angelius or Seraphs on the field, your opponent will be able to extricate his warbeasts via animus use (Repel or Slipstream). Even if the whole unit dies, it can be worth it if it delivers the rest of your army relatively intact.

4) Eliminate Shepherds/Forsaken when possible. Here's where having ranged models becomes really useful. Legion (much like Skorne) has fantastic (if expensive!) heavy warbeasts and great support for them. If you can eliminate their support network, particularly with their lower-Fury warlocks like the Lylyths, it will hinder their play.

5) Use Cover for your warlocks whenever possible. Eyeless Sight doesn't ignore Cover (though certain Legion models do have Hunter, so be aware of what will bypass your protections). The Krea can provide a nice buff to keep your warlock safe-ish, and you can occasionally score a Paralysis hit on a warbeast which can be key against their higher-DEF flying beasts.

As always, your mileage may vary.

-H

[EpicAstinos]

Agonizer, especially against melee beast Legion lists.

D'OH! I love the agonizer and completely forgot about him. Yeah, the agonizer is hilarious and, to me, the best investment of points in the game.