Harbinger & Pirates (amazingly broke)

[PG_Deist]

I love Muse on Minis. They are my favorite Warmachine Podcast by far. Chunky did an article for them a couple weeks back, and at the end he posted a little list...Harbinger w/pirates

Now, I did tweak the list, if only barely, but you will see....the list is bonkers.

Harbinger +5
Reckoner 8
Avatar 11
min Choir 2
Vassal 2
Covenant 2
max Seadogs 8
Attendant Priest 2
max Seadogs 8
Attendant Priest 2
Rhupert 2
First Mate Hawk 2
Doc Killingsworth 2
Lord Rockbottom 2
Anastasia 2

This list is nuts. If your opponent does not have some ranged game to put pressure on the Harbinger, it is nigh unstoppable.

Basic idea is to load your front line with the sea dogs, keeping Harby, doc, hawk, and the book near them. Rhupert gives out tough, book calls no KD...you now have a front line of 4+ tough models that cant be knockdown, and if they fail their tough check, you can martyr them.

It gets better, they are amazing in melee. With an effective 11.5'' charge range, two attacks each, gang, access to guided hand, and boosted attack rolls from Rockbottom, these pirates are up to Mat 6 + 4d6 on attack rolls, and weaponmasters against warrior models if they are near hawk. This means they when they get to the opponents caster, they are rolling pow 10 + 4d6 and pow 12 +3d6 on their arm. The best part is your super pirates screen all of the support!

Anastasia is really overkill in my opinion. If you manage to get espionage (and it is super easy with an army to deliver her) you will go way over time as you catch over 1/2 you army in her command to act again.

The attendant priests deserve some mention here as well. Being unable to target the pirates with spells is just pure money. Access to pathfinder is also super handy.

Problems with the list
-Order of activation nightmare, be prepared to need to practice alot. My first game I had to kill my own models because I trapped anastasia from getting her espionage off

Weaknesses
-Models like MHSF, if they snipe out your support...= not super pirates. You can't martyr the pirate solos, Rhupert or Anastasia
-AoE
-Harbinger likes to play close, I would not take this list if my opponent has solid access to fire or MHSF.

Thoughts? I really wish I could get the heirophant in here. I have never built a 50 point list where I felt I REALLY wanted more stuff.

[Lanz]

My immediate impression is that it'll be torn apart by armor-heavy lists. You're basically playing a 20 point list when it comes to cracking armor.

[PG_Deist]

Sure, it is not going to crack open 5 heavies, but the list isn't meant to. I assume by high armor you mean beasts/jacks, because the pirates can crack high armor infantry with relative easy. If need be, the pirates can jam heavies so the Avatar and the reckoner can finish them off as both jacks can reach over the pirates. The pirates are just so durable at effective defense 15 vs living (even 13 against non living is going to require 7s). 4+ tough and Martyrdom just ensures you are losing virtually no models.

I will be posting some bat reps starting Tuesday. I will try to get in some games against High Armor lists.

[Gaston]

Have you taken it out for a trial run yet?

I'd actually be curious to be the guy on the other side of the table, trying to figure out how to handle it.

[PG_Deist]

I have played it once against a Cryx player running Venethrax. He was running full banes thralls +ua, satixys raiders +UA, satyxis captian, Tartaros, skarlock, Pistol Wraith, Warwitch, Gerlak, Malice, Withershadow combine and some bone chicken

He sent the satyxis in first as you would expect. However Def 15 pirates ensured he got fewer attacks and the ones that manage to hit were martyred. In response, Harbinger casts guided hand and rockbottom boosts their attack rolls and the pirates go to work. Raiders were finished off in one round. I ended up having to send the avatar after the pistol wraith, and then he got tied up with the wraith and the warwitch. The Reckoner after two rounds of shooting had brought down the bone chicken before it was able to have any real effect on the game. With no real ranged threats, Harbinger was free to martyr as much as she liked, but 4+ tough meant I wasn't cutting very much.

Eventually it came down to anastasia punching espionage and getting 5 pirates on a Camping Venethrax. While they were not able to kill him that round, they put some serious damage on him. Venny popped feat, Skarlock thrall moves into base with him at drops a blood rain on venny's head. This catches all my pirates in the auto corrosion aoe that they had been avoiding from the beginning of the game (attendant priest's no spells). He passes turn, and at this point I could have played much safer, but I charged Harbinger in and dropped cataclysms to finish him.

The list is very overwhelming and positioning is key. Every attack you have to remember any of the possible buffs (gang, guided hand, money shot, payday, object of desire). On defense (immunity to spells, tough, +1 defense/terror, no KD, 4 up tough, Awe). The second wave of pirates did not end up doing much.

Afterthoughts, I am trying to figure the best way to use Rockbottoms coins...I am always scared to over use them. Wasn't till after the game we figured out that he could have cast blood rain at the Harbinger to possibly get some drifts onto the pirates. Sad part about corrosion, tough goes away at the start of your turn.

I never had a turn where I did not feel in control. The Avatar getting tied up for two turns was mildly annoying....but he really didn't have anything else to do anyway. With no reason to not martyr...Harby can go nuts and then heal up next turn.

I love the cryx matchup because, though awe doesn't really work against them, they hardly bring any ranged tools.

[jandrese]

The only concern I would have with that list is that you only have 2 models in it that can screen the Harbinger. It's fine against a Cryx list, but you're going to be in a lot of trouble against more shooting heavy lists. Worse, if you have to keep the Avatar back to block LOS to the Harbinger, then it's basically an 11 point paperweight. At least the Reckoner can shoot back.

If you're worried that Anastasia is just overkill, maybe consider replacing her with Gorman so you can combine a large base and a cloud effect to screen the Harbinger and let the Avatar run free.

[Sanctjud]

Venny is pretty meh too :-/ Offering nothing to actually support his army, and losing alot of utility and offensive options vs. that list.
I think it was a poor match up to gauge the "amazingly broke" aspect of that Harbie list, but it is still a cool looking list and deserves more games; keep at it.

[Charming]

List looks really sweet! How come you're skipping Mr. Walls though? I'd think putting his mini feat along with crusader's call would be kick-*** with sea dogs charging like 13"!

[Alzer]

Can't have more than one Unit Attachment. And crusader's call only hits Friendly Faction models. So if he wants CC on the dogs they gotta have the attendant priest. Therefore no Mr. Walls sadly.

EDIT: Consequently, Harby + pirates sounds like a hilarious idea. Keep goin with it I'd love to hear how that works as a general rule.

[jandrese]

I hope this takes off so we can hear people complaining about how our direct conduit to god likes to hang around with dirty pirates again.

[PG_Deist]

The only concern I would have with that list is that you only have 2 models in it that can screen the Harbinger. It's fine against a Cryx list, but you're going to be in a lot of trouble against more shooting heavy lists. Worse, if you have to keep the Avatar back to block LOS to the Harbinger, then it's basically an 11 point paperweight. At least the Reckoner can shoot back.

If you're worried that Anastasia is just overkill, maybe consider replacing her with Gorman so you can combine a large base and a cloud effect to screen the Harbinger and let the Avatar run free.

I was thinking something similar. Truth be told, I think I would rather build a second list to deal with the heavy range option...but Gorman may help balance the list. Another possibility is to drop the Avatar for another reckoner, a reclaimer and a wrack or mechanik

Venny is pretty meh too :-/ Offering nothing to actually support his army, and losing alot of utility and offensive options vs. that list.
I think it was a poor match up to gauge the "amazingly broke" aspect of that Harbie list, but it is still a cool looking list and deserves more games; keep at it.

Think about it, the fact that it was Venny is irrelevant. It is overall a poor match up for any melee centric army. I don't think either version of denny, skarre, gaspy or Terminus would fair well. Maybe a ranged cryx list...but immunity to spells really tones that down too.

More games to come for sure!

[Doblin James]

Think about it, the fact that it was Venny is irrelevant. It is overall a poor match up for any melee centric army. I don't think either version of denny, skarre, gaspy or Terminus would fair well. Maybe a ranged cryx list...but immunity to spells really tones that down too.

More games to come for sure!

Yes, please post your thoughts on the list after playing a few more games. As someone who doesn't get very excited about listbuilding, I'm extremely excited about this one, which really surprises me. Anyway, please keep us posted!

[canadianone]

As a pirate player, id try to finagle Mr. Walls in there, he does a lot for sea dogs.

[Craaag]

So when the seadogs become Protectorate models through the attendant priest they can still receive buffs from the merc solos?

[PG_Deist]

As a pirate player, id try to finagle Mr. Walls in there, he does a lot for sea dogs.

Can't take Mr. Walls. Attendant priest is a UA and units can only have one UA.

So when the seadogs become Protectorate models through the attendant priest they can still receive buffs from the merc solos?

The buffs specify "sea dogs" not friendly faction models....so yes!

[PG_Deist]

So I got in two games today. I had asked a buddy of mine to bring in a heavy armor Skorne list, but he really wanted to play circle. So look for the Skorne match up Thursday. I also totally meant to write down his list...so this is from memory.

My Harbinger list as posted above. No changes. Errants were proxied as the second squad of pirates, and the heirophant was the other attendant

His
Mohsar
Ghetorix
Gnarlhorn
Stalker
Gorax
Druids +UA
full Gatorman Posse
Druid wilder
feralgeist
Gallows grove

2012-04-24_18-39-33_861.jpg
Still trying to figure out an optimal deployment. Anastasia won me the die roll and I opted to go first. Scenario was close quarters. I have found that all 20 sea dogs do not need to be jammed so hard up the middle. Things definitely get tangled up. I forgot to take a pic at the end of round 1. Most important, Harbinger cast crusader's call to try and get Lord Rockbottom a bit further up the table...he is so slow at speed 4, so CC nets him an extra inch and Harbinger an extra 2. I opt to not pop feat turn one. Basically, stuff runs, Pirates get no spells from attendant priests, Rhupert toughs the sea dogs that end up in the front.

He runs stuff and casts sun hammer and a bunch of annoying pillars
2012-04-24_19-29-57_550.jpg
This picture is slightly into the bottom of round 2. Pirates get no spells again and move up. Rhupert toughs one squad and Rockbottom the other. I had tried to assault the gallows grove with the reckoner, it had stealth from the clouds the druids put up, but I ended up more than 5'' away. Before the charge the Vassal did enliven the Reckoner. Harbinger pops her feat.

His turn two is fairly uneventful. Mostly he just sits in wait. He does however put primal on the stalker and warp berserk and charge into my pirates. Between Awe, tough, and martyrdom...he fails to kill anything. Mostly pulls stuff back a bit. He arcs Curse of shadows on the Reckoner
2012-04-24_20-00-15_481.jpg

Turn 3
The Gnarlhorn is annoying... I end up backing the Reckoner up and shooting the Gallows grove, doing some damage, but not enough. I activate the pirates on my left and forget about counter slam. He nails a poor pirate who luckily had been given tough already...but no anti KD. Pirates finish off the Gallows Grove and ping up the Gnarlhorn that is now in my face. Other pirates get tough and guided from harbinger. They get the charge order, kill a couple druids and do a bit of damage to the stalker. Avatar comes and finishes him off.

He proceeds to flail about and do pretty much nothing. Gnarlhorn is out of Mohsar's control and between misses and toughs, kills nothing. Ghetorix charges...forces some toughs and Martyrdoms. Druids and gators get in the mix against the pirates. Lots of misses, a few tough checks...and still I have not lost a model.

Turn 4
Sorry forgot about the camera at this point. Reckoner finishes the Gnarlhorn. Pirates kill a couple gators druids and the Avatar puts down the feralgeist.
In return he finally cracks some poor pirates.

Turn 5
Espionage! Mohsar's stats suck. Pirates playing by the Ghetorix manage to crack (with melee) the two pillars that are in the way. Other pirates clean up more druids and gators. Anastasia does her thing. Pirates and Hawk get all over Mohsar. Boosted attack rolls from Rockbottom and damage from hawk....Mat 7 +3d6 vs def 14, pow 12 guns +3d6 quickly puts Mohsar into the dirt.

I have yet to play a game and not deliver Anastasia. She really is like having another feat! It is still taking an obscene amount of time to finish all my activations. I think 10 minutes is doable, but I still need more practice to get consistency down. Knowing the turn you are going to use the extension is clutch. That way you can take more time to plan out your activation order.

Other notes- The list was exhausting to play. I had to take a break after the first game. So many things to keep straight. The game overall was just a shut out. Denial everywhere. No spells stopped crevasse, and martyrdom and tough stopped berserk and snacking. Nothing threatening the Harbinger from cutting herself as much as she likes is just sick.

I did play a second game against Legion. I did not take photos or notes, but will give a brief overview

He brought a high armor legion lists. Thagrosh 1 and the 3 carni chassis and a bolt thrower. This match was much rougher. Scytheans takedown stops tough and Martyrdom. Awe helped mitigate losses by ensuring some missed attacks. Pirates eventually ate through Striders, Legionaires and the spawning vessel and its abominations. Avatar and the reckoner killed the Carnivean twice. Game was nearly lost to the Ravagore doing exactly what I expected it to....Catch Harby on fire. I was down to 4 health and luck was on my side as the fire rolled out. Anastasia once again got on Thags and helped to clear all but the scythean and Ravagore and put some hurting on thags. Harbinger ended up running away. In the end Thags had to put anastasia down to ensure no repeat business, but in exchange, left himself open to 4 charging seadogs who with the combined power of Hawk and Rockbottom, easily dispatched Thagrosh.

So yes, the pirates are not going to kill heavies. But at the same time, the heavies really are not killing the pirates. I don't like Harbinger in a match up against Ret, Menoth, or Legion. I think she will do very well against Khador, Cryx, Skorne, Trolls, and Circle. Factions that can't put pressure on her are going to feel a very lopsided game. My Circle/Skorne buddy promised a kick in the jewels the next time I brought the list =)

[Archaoti]

With that many martyrdom targets, can I suggest dropping Anastasia for a hierophant to heal harby ever turn?

[PG_Deist]

It is definitely a thought that has crossed my mind. I am also considering dropping the Avatar for another Reckoner. That would let me get a reclaimer and then either wracks or a mechanik. A sanctifier may also be able to replace the Avatar.

Overall, standing at 3-0 with the list, so I am not sure anything NEEDS to change. The fact that Harby is not being threatened makes it so that I don't think I really need the extra healing. I had several turns sitting on 0-4 focus in the Circle match up.

[Del Fuego]

My chief concern would be against lists that can put out serious sprays and AoEs or anything else that specializes in shenanigans with infantry murder. Along the lines of a Winterguard Death Star backed up by Arcing Fire and Rain of Death jacks and Windowmaker fire or a Cygnar list with a plump Stromstrider electro-leaping your front lines. I know Awe and Tough will help to off set some losses, but I'd be worried that enough of those would quickly exhaust Harby's reserves for Martyrdom.

[PG_Deist]

Against winterguard, you have access to Harbinger's feat. This allows you to get close to the death star, but not in shooting range, and sets you up for the charge or a run to engage. Also, you don't have to martyr all the time. The list is much weaker to fire and corrosion. Tough goes away at the end of the round, so fire and corrosion will kill pirates unless they are martyred. I don't see many "Rain of Death" jacks. The phoenix is the most common one. Thunderhead would also be rough. The key is to have a second list if you come up against Ret, Legion, Menoth, and possibly Cygnar.

Basically, the list wants to avoid- MHSF, Ravagores, continuous effects, lots of auto hitting attack.

[jandrese]

Bile thralls would be bad news too. But mostly you want to avoid anything with enough shooting or other shenanigans to bypass the pirates and go after the Harbinger directly. That's basically the ideal for a tarpit list I guess.

Anything with long range guns is a threat though. Even lowly Destroyers can score direct hits and from outside of Martyr range and get the Harbinger in trouble quickly unless there is some favorable terrain and/or you are willing to leave the Avatar in the back as a shield.

The more I think about this, the more I like the two Reckoner idea. They give you a constant bodyguard for the Harbinger and their guns are decent enough that I wouldn't feel like they are a total waste back there. You also get three points to play with (Hierophant!). The downside is that you're really going to struggle against high ARM models.

[PG_Deist]

I am keeping a log of notes on all possible match ups. For cryx, you are right, bile thralls are the biggest issue, none of the casters are that scary though. Biles also have a meager 11" threat. The pirates have 14''. Usually cryx players only bring a min squad of them too, so you just need to kill what you can and try to minimize purges. The Continuous Corrosion is the worst part about the purge. Defilers have continuous corrosion sprays and the blood hags get that field that prevents tough and healing. Cryx however doesn't put pressure on the Harbinger, which really plays in this list's favor.

When I played the Thags 1 matchup (lot of high armor) the pirates turn into the ultimate jam. The beasts just couldn't chew through enough of them. The pirates win out against most other infantry, and then jam up heavies. Then the Avatar and Reckoner can clean up fairly safe. The Ravagore proved to be the only troublesome piece in that match up.

Unfortunately for the destoyer, it is slow. I think Harbinger can out maneuver it. If she can find some cover...then it needs 14s to hit and I will take those odds any day of the week.

I should get another game or two in tomorrow night. Please feel free to test the list or variations and post your own feedback. I will try to be more thorough in my upcoming reports.

[darisus]

A few thoughts for you on your list... Have you thought of canging one unit of sea dogs for press gangers? Press gangers have native tough so you don't need to use coins or rhupert on them for that, but you do give up the gun so they lose range, but they can make more seadogs for you with shanghigh. Just a thought. I have been looking at getting Press gangers for some of my regular lists as having tough and the Lass offering seduction could be nice, and with harby you can now martyr the Lass so she doesn't get capped so often.

Also with only a few bases larger then small i would watch out for tramples to harby. People often forget about tramples, and her def 14 isn't that hard to hit with boosts, plus if you spent any focus or cast spells her arm really starts dropping to easily killable range along with any damage she has taken from martyrdom.

Jsut a few thoughts on your list. I am interested in hearing how yours plays out as it may decide for me if i am getting any sea dogs or pressgangers for any of my lists in the near future. I hate proxies so i often don't play crazy lists i wnat to try or think up daydreaming till i can get the models by borrow or buying. So, hearing other people experiences with certain models will often determine if i should get things for some of my more off the wall ideas.

[PG_Deist]

That is an interesting suggestion. Saves 2 points...maybe for the heirophant I would like to squeeze in the list. I like that they are advance deploy. My deployment has been very crowded. Rhupert is probably too good to drop though. Saving coins, giving terror, auto rallying troops. Plus, since rockbottom can only use one coin ability per unit per turn, rhupert will need to give tough if I want to use a different ability from Rockbottom.

The cool thing about so many troops is you can prevent some trample lanes, just by leaving no landing zones. You are right however, Tramples are definitely the thing to watch out for.

I will definitely have to see how the list runs with the pressgangers. That is a solid idea!

[PG_Deist]

Didn't get the chance to play tonight due to work. Will have to wait for Tuesday for the next update.

[West996]

I think against a good Cryx player you will still have trouble. I've seen Terminus lists with 2 Leviathans and Bile Thralls, the thralls can be screened with something like Bane Knights.

There are some nasty PDenny ranged lists out there. I've seen PDenny with 2 pistol Wraiths and full units of either Croe's Cutthroats or Nyss. You might be immune to spells but her feat is still going to debuff your DEF, that is a lot of high RAT shots coming your way.

How would you deal with a full unit of Black banes running to engage your support pieces forcing you to take free strikes to move?

[Vinsklortho]

Pirates+Harbinger sounds amazing! I'll have to look into it.

[PG_Deist]

I think against a good Cryx player you will still have trouble. I've seen Terminus lists with 2 Leviathans and Bile Thralls, the thralls can be screened with something like Bane Knights.

There are some nasty PDenny ranged lists out there. I've seen PDenny with 2 pistol Wraiths and full units of either Croe's Cutthroats or Nyss. You might be immune to spells but her feat is still going to debuff your DEF, that is a lot of high RAT shots coming your way.

How would you deal with a full unit of Black banes running to engage your support pieces forcing you to take free strikes to move?

3 part question, so i am going to start with the easy one first
Blackbanes and incorporeal models are easily dealt with. Attendant priest grants magic weapons.

Shooting can be an issue, however most of the ranged models cryx has is at max 12". They will have a hard time geetting in range of Harby if played right. Pdennys feat doesnt stop tough or martyrdom...and is little more than a nuisance. Harby can use her feat to jam denny.

Bile thralls are a legitimate concern. Once again I think proper use of Harbys feat is the key. Forcing them to trade banes and biles for pirates. The blood hag is probably the toughest model to deal with, but thankfully doesnt see as much play.

I apologize for not having any new bat reps. My local meta has quicly boycotted the list. However a few want to prep for tourneys and are going to test it next week.

[PG_Deist]

The pirates really dont care about being hit or taking high damage attacks. They do care about fire and corrosion.

[darisus]

Let me know if you give the Pressgangers a try instead of 2 seadog units and how that works out. Like i said i have some thoughts on them in other lists, but not sure i want to invest in it till if it works decent in play and not jsut in my head...

[PG_Deist]

I have been contemplating the pressgangers. Part of the reason for me playing this list, is it is something to fight against Cryx. Pressgangers shanghai ability only works on living models I believe. Regardless, I will see if I can give it a shot.

[Pixl]

One long strackhov trample through your models gets stuff realy close to harby...specialy if they are to be within 10" so they can be martyred....one or two things that can shoot long can make it hard to.....but it is a meat wall thats for sure...

[PG_Deist]

Against Strakhov, you would have to position your jacks to block access to her. Avatar's Gaze can also help if he forces them to come towards him instead. Really, if they are running 1-2 jacks, she is probably ok. Spriggans and Beast 09 are the two jacks that you would have to watch out for (since they have reach).

Good news is Strakhov doesn't let them trample for free either. So assuming Strakhov is upkeeping superiority, the max # of attacks a jack will have against her is 2. Would definitely be a good idea to camp turns 2-3 to try and mitigate their feat turn.

[GrandMcMuf]

I really like this idea. I've been trying to strip it down to 35 points though, because that's the number I usually play at. Seems like just too much Support for that though.

[PG_Deist]

I don't see a good way to drop it down to 35. You would have to cut a unit of pirates for sure and then probably the Avatar. If you cut the Avatar you can also consider dropping the choir...but then your one jack doesn't have much pow to work with.

[darisus]

I don't see a good way to drop it down to 35. You would have to cut a unit of pirates for sure and then probably the Avatar. If you cut the Avatar you can also consider dropping the choir...but then your one jack doesn't have much pow to work with.

I was looking at your list and came up with what could bea viable 35pt alternative.

Harby +5

Crusader 6
Reckoner 8

Choir (min) 2
Doc 2
Hawk 2
Rockbottom 2
Sea dogs (min) 5
AP 2
Sea Dogs (min) 5
AP 2
Covenant 2
Vassal 2

This gives you a pretty stripped down list while still maintaing alot of the originals power. The Avatar is great a wrecking face, but so is the humble crusader and it saves you 5 points. A buffed crusader hits almost as hard as an avatar and harby shoud have some focus to sapre to power it.

Taking the Sea Dogs down to min each lets you keep 2 units or you could just go one max unit and maybe toss in another 2 point solo. THis would also free 2 more points from the second AP being go to add in wahtever you feel. If you like having 2 waves of pirates, you can keep the 2 min units over one max.

The only things missing are rhupert and Anna, which as you stated could be optional anyways. The one big issue i see is Rockbottoms coins will go really fast without rhupert toughing the second unit, but the coins should be spent anyways, aznd you won't need tough all the time on a second unit if there are no threats near. I also find 35pt gmes rarely make it past round 3 or 4, so having all your coins spent by then shouldn't be an issue either.

Anyways just a few thoughts to add to this thread on pirates.... I just got Doc the other day so he will be up in my painting table. Now to proxy some pirate units and test them out to see if i want the Sea dogs or Pressgangers to purchase first. Hawk makes occasional apperances in some of my lists anyways so it should be interesting.

[PG_Deist]

Now your talking! You broke the mental barrier I had at this point level. One thing I have noticed in the few games I have played at 50 is that the second unit feels fairly unnecessary most of the time. Harbinger just does such a good job of keeping the front line alive. So tweaking your list a bit, I cut one unit completely, and upgraded the other to max. Leaves 4 pts for Hierophant ...which I really want at 50pts, and Rhupert back in. He is super clutch for allowing the attendant priest to say no spells while they get tough or pathfinder. 1 less squad means coins don't need to be spread around, and a max squad helps get max usage per coin.

Harby +5

Crusader 6
Reckoner 8
Heirophant 2

Rhupert 2
Choir (min) 2
Doc 2
Hawk 2
Rockbottom 2
Sea dogs (max) 8
AP 2
Covenant 2
Vassal 2


This got me thinking further. In the 50 pt version, I could drop one unit of seadogs down to a min unit or to a pressgangers min or max unit. Saving anywhere from 2-4 points. Allowing room for any of the following - Rhoven, Hierophant, and/or Wracks (the only models I wish were in the list from the get go). Anastasia could also be dropped...but I feel the +1 to the roll and espionage are too powerful to let go of.

[PG_Nemlock]

Hey HEY. Stop talking about this list already. As one of Deist's sparring partners I can tell you this list is horrible and in no way should be considered for competitive play. Hopefully this means I don't have to see this abomination anymore. God I hate this list.

Deist: "Why didn't your Scythean trample over the pirates to Harby? You could have gotten through the mass."
Me: "So....Harby could just blast it to smithereens after it misses her because of MAT 2." *

I just played a Terminus Cryx list @ my flgs the other day. I felt the same way after playing against that list that I do against this list. It's like a kick in the jewels every single turn. There's no progress felt at any point. I'd have to specifically tech against this list and throw 2 Ravagores in a list just to fight this. And then Harby would just be a jillion miles away anyway.

* He typically (and correctly) parks his Reckoner right near Harby. Totally screwing over any living model from ever having a chance to hit her.

[darisus]

* He typically (and correctly) parks his Reckoner right near Harby. Totally screwing over any living model from ever having a chance to hit her.

Just be glad he uses the AP and not Mr. Walls for his Officer, Walls has his monkey bite or whatever it is called that if he postioins right could ad another minus 2. That would be seriously funny getting all 3 things to stack for a minus 6 to hit...

@Diest... Like i have said earlier, i have been looking at pressgangers as a cheaper alternative to Seadogs, but they lose a range weapon and point blank with it so just one initial attack, but gain AD and tough built in for a 4/6 cost. I would try to maybe get Rhoven in there for some anti-stealth tech. Early double taps from the reckoner on there key stealth models often can give you a signifigant advantage. Removing Tartersauce, MHA, eiyrss, or any of the other great stealthy solos out there form 22" out really helps you keep control of the game.

[Scottl1]

Shhh Darisus I like my banes/Tartarus keeping stealth.

@Nemlock Idk if my termi list is as bad as this harby list. I dont have harby method of ah ha to saved the failed toughs. I wouldn't mind a shot at this list though.

I had to peak in to see where this list was going in case of tournaments.