Harbinger & Pirates (amazingly broke)

[deathwishjoe]

So I've been playing some variations of this list with the press gangers recently. Here are my thoughts. +4 toughness with no knock down is dead sexy! 3d6 to hit is pretty reliabale especially with gang. The list does indeed have issues against beast heavy lists but at 50 points you might be able to reach a critical mass with the right models. I'll still testing this. against infantry swarms the pressgangers get truely frightening! went up against Zaal and he sent like 4 nihilators with last stand up against one squad of press gangers. they all made there tougness roll and then converted the rest of the nihilators next turn!

[Vinsklortho]

We're having a sale at our LGS today so I think I might pick up some stuff to start building towards this list or maybe a temporary stopgap list until I get more Pirate stuff.

[Vinsklortho]

I picked up most of the stuff I need today to try out Harby Pirates. I definitely want to thank PG Deist for such inspiration. Here is what I'm going for in the mean time to test out.

Harbinger +5
Crusader 6
Reckoner 8
Avatar 11
Heirophant 2
min Choir 2
Covenant 2
max Seadogs 8
Attendant Priest 2
max Press Gangers 6
Attendant Priest 2
Rhupert 2
First Mate Hawk 2
Doc Killingsworth 2

Total 50

I mostly changed one unit of Seadogs to Press Gangers, dropped two solos(like you said Anastasia is overkill and I was only somewhat sold on Lord Rockbottom so I picked him up just in case but he won't be in the initial list), traded out a Vassal for a Heirophant, and added a Crusader for punching heavy armor.

[darisus]

I mostly changed one unit of Seadogs to Press Gangers, dropped two solos(like you said Anastasia is overkill and I was only somewhat sold on Lord Rockbottom so I picked him up just in case but he won't be in the initial list), traded out a Vassal for a Heirophant, and added a Crusader for punching heavy armor.

I think the thing you will miss with rockbottom is the versatility he can add to your units. If you want to shoot something he can moneyshot the seadogs and his payday gives them boosted melee attack rolls which becomes crazy with gang. Since the Sea dogs have point blank the gun shots are boosted also because they count as melee. Having the abilty to hit almost anything in the game seems pretty key, especially against high def units like Kayazy or Satyxis...

I would also bring the vassal back as enliven is key to keeping your heavies alive as well as ancillary attack getting that last shot in that can sometimes be needed.

Just a few thoughts on the matter. Also since pirates are all the rage now, i may be trying them out with my newly painted Amon...

Thinking of using some allegiants and the full seadog kit and just really jamming people with fast jacks and troops...
Something like this:
Amon +6
Reckoner 8
Redeemer 6
Repenter 4
Scourge 9

Allegaint 2
Bosun 2
Choir (min) 2
Doc 2
pEiryss 3
Hawk 2
Rockbottom 2
Sea Dogs (max) 8
Walls 2
Rifleman (x2) 2
Vassal 2


Obviously i will need to tweek this as i play but i think it may have potential...

[PG_Deist]

I picked up most of the stuff I need today to try out Harby Pirates. I definitely want to thank PG Deist for such inspiration. Here is what I'm going for in the mean time to test out.

Harbinger +5
Crusader 6
Reckoner 8
Avatar 11
Heirophant 2
min Choir 2
Covenant 2
max Seadogs 8
Attendant Priest 2
max Press Gangers 6
Attendant Priest 2
Rhupert 2
First Mate Hawk 2
Doc Killingsworth 2

Total 50

I mostly changed one unit of Seadogs to Press Gangers, dropped two solos(like you said Anastasia is overkill and I was only somewhat sold on Lord Rockbottom so I picked him up just in case but he won't be in the initial list), traded out a Vassal for a Heirophant, and added a Crusader for punching heavy armor.

I don't personally think the crusader is necessary. Lord Rockbottom on the other hand is totally Legit. Rhoven and Company is another bit I really want to get into the list...mostly for Tartaros, but he also has a mini purification (which saves focus for Harby(.

[PG_Deist]

@Darisus- What do you feel Amon adds to the pirates? Or are they just a personal delivery system?

[darisus]

@Darisus- What do you feel Amon adds to the pirates? Or are they just a personal delivery system?

He provides nothing for them... but they really don't need anything from him that is the thing! They are a fast independant unit that can double as tarpit and early jammers. That leaves Amon to focus on his jacks and since the Sea Dogs are fast they can stay ahead of the jacks. I find with Amon alot of times the Jacks can outrun the troops and this way you can have them jammed up dealing with the pirates while your wave of jacks comes in to finish them off.

The other thing is almost everything in the list is either tough or jacks. Playing Trolls a few times and you realize how frustrating that can be, and also what are you going to concentrate on the pirates or the jacks if you focus on one the other will get you. Then, after you kill of the front line of pirates, Amon will have his jacks and feat available to walk through any holes in your lines and finish things off.

Lastly, I like combined arms armies, I like to be able to have the option to shoot something if i can't reach it in melee. I find having such a variable amount of threat ranges keeps opponents guessing on what you are going to try and no matter which they account for you have the option of the other.

I need to playtest it a little and then tweek things out for what i feel works and what doesn't. With all those solos, it should be relatively easy to tweek things by switching a few pieces here or there.

[Vinsklortho]

Against winterguard, you have access to Harbinger's feat. This allows you to get close to the death star, but not in shooting range, and sets you up for the charge or a run to engage. Also, you don't have to martyr all the time. The list is much weaker to fire and corrosion. Tough goes away at the end of the round, so fire and corrosion will kill pirates unless they are martyred. I don't see many "Rain of Death" jacks. The phoenix is the most common one. Thunderhead would also be rough. The key is to have a second list if you come up against Ret, Legion, Menoth, and possibly Cygnar.

Basically, the list wants to avoid- MHSF, Ravagores, continuous effects, lots of auto hitting attack.

With those match ups it sounds like eFeora is her natural bff for 2 caster tourneys. Would you say all of Legion can give her a tough fight or is it pretty much eLylyth? Also what is it about Menoth that might give her problems? Is it the cont fire?

[Scottl1]

With those match ups it sounds like eFeora is her natural bff for 2 caster tourneys. Would you say all of Legion can give her a tough fight or is it pretty much eLylyth? Also what is it about Menoth that might give her problems? Is it the cont fire?

I think it's the ravagores specifically with the cont fire that is what deist is speaking mostly about as an issue espeacially for Harbinger. Elylyth is kinda an obvious caster brought up due to the popularity of running around 3 ravagores with her. Spamming high arm, immune to fire(like efeora), and lighting the strider, raptors, caster and what not can ruin their day.

[darisus]

With all the mention about continous effects and tough going away beofre they go off it does add another point in favor of having the Pressgangers as one of the units over 2 seadog units. Since they are always tough they would keep it and hopefully survive the additional tough check needed.

As much as everyone is in love with good old eFeora i would actually maybe recommend Prime as a option also for countering Ret and Legion heavy range lists. I have had a decent amout of succes with pFeora lately, ins ome rather unorthodx lists that baffle my opponents till they lose to it. Her high base stats are one of the best reason she does so well versus range but with Prime i often use here EoD to kill any heavies opponents get into my lines. I have also go a few kills in with her double flamethowers, while the 10" is nice i having 2 boostable pow 12's often lets me kill weakened casters or locks. She basically has the same threat range as eFeora with her two if you cast EoD for the extra +2 speed then walk 8" and double boosted spray. It does take alot more focus but can be worth it if you can then rescreen her or get that critical kill you need.

I also like to bring a Vigilant with here for a great Blazing target, because he is hard to remove and having him run near a bunch of high def models and blast them off the table is awesome, as well as giving blast damage immunity to things while marching up the field. He also does spuprisingly well under a choir buff with ignite on him. It may not seem Op but a couple pow 15's that cause crit fire can mess up most light jacks, especailly ret ones.

I will have to see if i can dig up my off the wall pFeora list that made one ret player ragequit turn 2, after i wiped out 75 percent of his army...

[PG_Deist]

With those match ups it sounds like eFeora is her natural bff for 2 caster tourneys. Would you say all of Legion can give her a tough fight or is it pretty much eLylyth? Also what is it about Menoth that might give her problems? Is it the cont fire?

Ravagores are the issue with Legion. eVayl is a pain too as she has some dangerous spell assassination angles.

Scott hit it on the head. Menoth is one of two factions with access to lots of continuous fire. Menoth in general might not be a terrible match up...but either Feora would be very troublesome. pSevy could also be an issue as he also can dish out a ton of attacks with redeemers/repenters.

[Marzuki]

So has anyone had the chance to run 50 points with the press gangers yet? Results?

[Scottl1]

So has anyone had the chance to run 50 points with the press gangers yet? Results?

Annoying as **** to play against til doc dies.. :/

[darisus]

Annoying as **** to play against til doc dies.. :/

Keeping him alive can be difficult, and until shield guard is fixed it may stay that way... he is pretty much the achilles heel for running pirates, but, 5+ tough is still pretty decent for alot of things.

[HellecticMojo]

I don't want to play against this...

I have no idea how I would stop this while playing the farrow.

[Scottl1]

Keeping him alive can be difficult, and until shield guard is fixed it may stay that way... he is pretty much the achilles heel for running pirates, but, 5+ tough is still pretty decent for alot of things.

Believe me with Harbinger martyring it is not that hard. Played against it and unless you have cont effects OR a lot of aoe(maybe tramples) to cause A LOT of tough/martyring it is very hard to hurt the list. lol In one turn I "killed" 7 pirates and a handful of other stuff. Between 4 up tough and martyr I killed no one. lol
That went on for 5 turns! lol So yes the list has a few matchup issues but that is what the other list is for. I still want to face it again. Hawk and Doc will die first! ..maybe lol

[darisus]

I still want to face it again. Hawk and Doc will die first! ..maybe lol

Right there is the best counter to alot of what pirates can do, but killing hawk can be tough if she is in with a bunch of pirates for SUCKER!... Most of the time she will die to blast damage shots, which you can't pawn off since they don't directly hit her. I like to keep her just behind a group of pirates so she isn't in los and maybe far enough away to avoid a blast.... Do any merc jacks or models have girded that we can field in protectorate armies this would go along way to helping out pirate solos?

[FearMeMortals]

This is certainly a well constructed list. However people really need to get away from the 'super list wins games' mentality. Seriously refusing to play against a list (implication: have no chance of winning). Players win games.

[PG_Deist]

It is a very difficult list to play. Order of activation and placement is a nightmare. That being said, if feels a lot like a Terminus list. It is the kind of list your opponent has to have an answer for...or they just lose.

@ darisus- The vigilant has girded

[FearMeMortals]

It is a very difficult list to play. Order of activation and placement is a nightmare. That being said, if feels a lot like a Terminus list. It is the kind of list your opponent has to have an answer for...or they just lose.

@ darisus- The vigilant has girded

The answers vary on if you're playing scenarios and how you set up your gaming boards really.

Also when did Diest become a PG? Where was I when this happened?

[FearMeMortals]

Believe me with Harbinger martyring it is not that hard. Played against it and unless you have cont effects OR a lot of aoe(maybe tramples) to cause A LOT of tough/martyring it is very hard to hurt the list. lol In one turn I "killed" 7 pirates and a handful of other stuff. Between 4 up tough and martyr I killed no one. lol
That went on for 5 turns! lol So yes the list has a few matchup issues but that is what the other list is for. I still want to face it again. Hawk and Doc will die first! ..maybe lol

Harbinger can't keep Doc alive with Martyrdom.

[Spyde]

Why not drop both jacks.. and have the Judicator keep harby safe

[jandrese]

I generally avoid suggesting models that won't be out for months.

[darisus]

It is a very difficult list to play. Order of activation and placement is a nightmare. That being said, if feels a lot like a Terminus list. It is the kind of list your opponent has to have an answer for...or they just lose.

@ darisus- The vigilant has girded

I was thinking of a merc jack to give girded to doc and hawk... since they are non-faction does the vigilant work for them... will have to check that rule out later when i have some time and not working... If he does jsut let friendly models gain girded he may be worth adding to lists, as i said before blast damage seems to be doc and hawks worst killler.

[Spyde]

I generally avoid suggesting models that won't be out for months.

To each their own. its not like people arent going to proxy it. And the above list would be to slow for most timed tourneys.

Its a simple fix for keeping harby safe and killing heavies in a thread finding a way to make pirates+harby amazing.

[PG_Deist]

I have been a PG for about... 6 months or so I think.

@FearMeMortals- True, but Doc is very easy to screen.

@Darisus- Vigilant is just friendly models. So he can protect them

@Spyde- Judicator is not a bad idea. He doesn't need focus and can maybe deal with some nasty stuff like bile thralls...good call. Even frees up a point so I can have my Wracks in the list!
You have just made my meta extremely unhappy sir!

[Marzuki]

It is a very difficult list to play. Order of activation and placement is a nightmare. That being said, if feels a lot like a Terminus list. It is the kind of list your opponent has to have an answer for...or they just lose.

So, in a SR2012 two list, what would you absolutely avoid running this against? I know heavy armor has been mentioned as a problem. Bile thralls seem to be an issue as well. So this list would be nice against balanced lists or infantry heavy as long as Cryx isn't involved?

[PG_Deist]

Things to avoid- lots of continuous effects (fire, corrosion) and the Mage Hunter Strike Force.

High armor infantry isn't that bad, but lots of high armor heavies and now potentially colossals would be very rough. The list would struggle a lot against a colossal imo.

[Marzuki]

Ran this list last night against Legion and Circle:

Harbinger
Reckoner
Hierophant

Avatar
Attendant Priest x2
Anastasia
Choir (min)
Doc
Hawk
Gorman
Rockbottom
Press Gangers (min)
Rhupert
Sea Dogs (max)
Covenant
Vassal

Placement was the hardest thing. In the game against Circle I put my jacks on each flank due to the scenario we were playing and the Avatar was sort of out of the game for most of it due to the flag on his side disappearing (unless I wanted to trample through my mob of infantry). Other than that this list was a huge problem for both the Legion and Circle players. Legion got a couple Ravagor AoEs and a Strafe against me but 4+ tough and spreading the Sea Dogs really helped mitigate damage. Sea Dogs only used their range attacks one time; they really are meant to be up in melee for Gang, Point Blank, Payday, and boosted hand weapons. The Attendant Priests really discouraged my spell slinging Circle opponent but the Press Gangers were happy to Shanghai some of their ilk to the ranks of the Sea Dogs. Seduction on Lord of the Feast is also great fun since Blood Reaper is part of his normal attack. Advancing Harby up b2b with Doc and the Hiero is a great way to get rid of the martyrdom damage.

The biggest issue I had with this list was keeping Harby far enough forward for Martyrdom range while also keeping her safe from ranged attacks. Gorman was there for clouds but that does jack squat against Legion. I'm unsure if Anastasia is really needed here; still mulling over my other 2 point options. Overall a very solid list and a lot of fun to play.

[dchadpage]

Can Doc heal Harby? I'm pretty sure he says Friendly Faction, which I guess means just Mercs.

[darisus]

Can Doc heal Harby? I'm pretty sure he says Friendly Faction, which I guess means just Mercs.

Nope he can't was a big hit to all who had him mk1 when he could, now we jsut hav e the crappy d3 from hiero.

On the pirates subject i have been having some good sucess testing them out with thyra at home, her feat, carnage and occultaion make them a really difficult unit to deal with before i can alpha strike you. The big issue with occultaion on them is it leaves doc open to getting shot pretty easy, so i am not sure yet about using it on them or not, but carnage plus rockbottom, plus gang, means you don't miss anything, and having BoM near to get angry when you kill them and deal with heavies really helps.

The list is pretty fast and hard hitting and i am often feating turn 2, and getting alot of the army into my opponents, i feel i may need some reclaimers in the list to power the jacks as i want carnage up alot. It really needs just a little more tweeking and i think it will be ready for some serious playtesting. Once it is ready i am sure all the players at my LGS will help me out by destroying me with there colassals....

[Khaunshar]

Hmm while this list sounds like a major pain in the rear for many players, I wouldnt consider it that great for competitive play. Most if not all serious Cryx players bring Biles, the colossals have just turned mincing infantry into red paste into a new artform, and while 4+ tough can certainly lessen the impact, with Stormwall, Conquest, Judicator and sometimes Galleon we are looking at a boatload of blast damage.

Dont get me wrong, this seems indeed like one of these few lists that all but guarantee you a win by your opponents inability to deal with it. its also not quite easy to figure out a proper counter to it, as lots of it relies on rolling dice 4+.
But in a world with Scaverous, colossals, eLylyth etc., I am not sure you can catch all these dangerous matchups with your second list.... since that virtually has to be eFeora, and she isnt really a great matchup vs. the usual bile-thrall casters.

Kudos to thinking a bit outside the box though, and kudos for having the patience to learn such a list.

[PG_Deist]

Hmm while this list sounds like a major pain in the rear for many players, I wouldnt consider it that great for competitive play. Most if not all serious Cryx players bring Biles, the colossals have just turned mincing infantry into red paste into a new artform, and while 4+ tough can certainly lessen the impact, with Stormwall, Conquest, Judicator and sometimes Galleon we are looking at a boatload of blast damage.

Dont get me wrong, this seems indeed like one of these few lists that all but guarantee you a win by your opponents inability to deal with it. its also not quite easy to figure out a proper counter to it, as lots of it relies on rolling dice 4+.
But in a world with Scaverous, colossals, eLylyth etc., I am not sure you can catch all these dangerous matchups with your second list.... since that virtually has to be eFeora, and she isnt really a great matchup vs. the usual bile-thrall casters.

Kudos to thinking a bit outside the box though, and kudos for having the patience to learn such a list.

It is not just the 4+ tough. It is 4+ tough with Martyrdom. I am not quite sure how scaverous is a problem however. Attendant priests can sing no spells on their units...so no TK or Excarnate.

The list has 3 weaknesses. Continuous effects, High powered Long Ranged shooting, and High Jack armor.

Bile thralls are an issue, however, with the Judicator I think the list will be able to manage them. Press Gangers having permanent tough also helps. So much infantry is definitely hard to run without a ton of practice. I am still very inefficient with my placement.

Overall, Legion and Ret should be avoided due to their consistent use of Ravagores and MHSF. Cryx and Menoth can pose serious issues if biles or mass fire is present.

I think the solution for colossals in this list is to ignore them. Seriously...go around them. The book prevents knock down and you can just have models run around to engage your opponents caster if they are hiding. Ideally though, your other list will deal with Heavies better.

This list is great against High infantry, balanced, and melee centric lists.

[PG_Deist]

Nope he can't was a big hit to all who had him mk1 when he could, now we jsut hav e the crappy d3 from hiero.

On the pirates subject i have been having some good sucess testing them out with thyra at home, her feat, carnage and occultaion make them a really difficult unit to deal with before i can alpha strike you. The big issue with occultaion on them is it leaves doc open to getting shot pretty easy, so i am not sure yet about using it on them or not, but carnage plus rockbottom, plus gang, means you don't miss anything, and having BoM near to get angry when you kill them and deal with heavies really helps.

The list is pretty fast and hard hitting and i am often feating turn 2, and getting alot of the army into my opponents, i feel i may need some reclaimers in the list to power the jacks as i want carnage up alot. It really needs just a little more tweeking and i think it will be ready for some serious playtesting. Once it is ready i am sure all the players at my LGS will help me out by destroying me with there colassals....

Thyra sounds Legit! Personally...I may try them with pSevy as I am loving him at the moment. The pirates are a nightmare to operate still.

[Kenton]

Shoot Doc & Rhupert, job done. This isn't all that difficult for most factions these days.

[PG_Deist]

How are you doing that exactly? you have 20ish models screening them..... Don't forget, both Doc and Rhupert also have 4+ tough too. Not quite as easy as you make it sound.

[Silverstar843]

I dunno...List doesn't seem all that great to me. Killingworth is a hell of a lot easier to kill than Vilmon in a Harby list, but that doesn't stop him from being fried. Could certainly be fun. I honestly think incorporeal Cryx armies would be best to deal with this. Kill the priests and no magic weapon. Cryx also has the hag which can shut down your healing and tough rolls. I would treat it as a troll army. Kill the covenant, the Doc, and any other support pieces I can and then take out them pirates.

[Scottl1]

Kill the covenant, the Doc, and any other support pieces I can and then take out them pirates.

So tabling them is your answer? Solid lol

[PG_Deist]

I dunno...List doesn't seem all that great to me. Killingworth is a hell of a lot easier to kill than Vilmon in a Harby list, but that doesn't stop him from being fried. Could certainly be fun. I honestly think incorporeal Cryx armies would be best to deal with this. Kill the priests and no magic weapon. Cryx also has the hag which can shut down your healing and tough rolls. I would treat it as a troll army. Kill the covenant, the Doc, and any other support pieces I can and then take out them pirates.

Good thing Cryx has tons of amazing shooting to not only shoot through the pirates, but also amazing range. Also...turns out I can martyr things like the Attendant priests and the Covenant.

How exactly are you using your incoporeal models? Black Banes can run 14...same range my pirates can advance and shoot. Black banes are not a good answer.

The blood hag is a good answer. It will give you one good turn to kill some pirates. Problem is then going to be the second wave, who will make sure the Blood hag is not around for another turn.

Better yet, I will use your logic. I will kill the bile thralls and blood hag before you get to use them. Because that is so easy right?

[Scottl1]

Plus who seriously runs a lot of incorporeal unit cryx armies?? Most have maybe a unit or 2 which last I checked hated A&H.