Handling IK Guns

[Sosthenes]

I'm not a big gun nut, but I'm looking for some details to add some flavor to the campaign. I guess the specific construction of IK guns has some interesting side effects in the way they are handled (or should be handled). So let's get a-thinkin'?

First of all, as far as I see it, the IK blast powder seems pretty great. Ignition by combining components eliminates the need for a percussive cap and thus one element of failure. Also, a single spark might burn through the paper coating of one component, but won't cause the round to go off unless it manages to hit right where the separating liner is.
It also seems pretty smokeless (compared to black powder). Don't know how bad fouling is. Cleaning up the breech seems part of loading it, but beyond that, residue seems pretty low.

As for the breech loading mechanism, pretty much everything seems to be break action, like a shotgun, right? I'm not so sure whether those huge top-mounted knobs actually make sense at all. You might as well put them on the side, and then could aim a lot better along the barrel. So let's add that to the artistic license pile, along with the insanely huge calibers.

The ignition is purely internal, so rain is probably not a big factor. Immersion in water is a different matter, of course.

Breech loading allows you to reload on the ground, so there's definitely more sniping and skirmish action going on than in e.g. Napoleonic warfare. Which seems to support Warmahordes

Now drawing back the firing pin seems a manual part of the loading action. Any safeties around, possibly blocking the exposed part of the pin somehow? If not, carrying around a loaded gun is basically safeties of (condition 0?). Military discipline could be against it, with soldiers only doing it if e.g. they're advancing ahead, expecting enemy contact at any moment. And some crazy gunslingers could carry their braces of pistols all ready to go, just to shave off a few precious moments.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I don't have any specific comments, but I am interested to see where this goes.

[Lord of ???]

How ready the weapon is would be dependant upon how paranoid the person holding it is.

If they are travelling along the remote highways then I would very much expect it to be loaded.

If they sitting in their home town tavern I would not expect it to be loaded. (Unless their home town tavern is in a certain Ordic port)


Most players I have met seem to be very paranoid. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to carry a loaded pistol in to meet the King.


There are also a very large variety of guns in the IK. You still have mainly muzzle loading weapons as standard issue. More elite units seem to get breach loaders or revolver style magazines which seem to be a break action.

You can still reload muzzle loaders on the ground. It's just going to be much more annoying and time consuming.

[themocaw]

What's the matter with the weapon caliber?

[Sosthenes]

How ready the weapon is would be dependant upon how paranoid the person holding it is.

Well, the level of paranoia required varies greatly with the technology. If your gun doesn't have a safety, then carrying a loaded pistol in a hip holster might only require a slight jostling of the trigger and you're literally shooting yourself in the foot. Imagine a Colt Peacemaker that's cocked all the time. And as opposed to that, you can't just pull the firing pin back before firing, as the bolt needs to protrude through half the bullet, so you can't have it in the inactive position and a bullet loaded at the same time.
If a safety is around, there's little to no risk. If one isn't, it's very risky.

There are also a very large variety of guns in the IK. You still have mainly muzzle loading weapons as standard issue.

Do you have a source for that? The IKCG makes it sound like even the pin locks were mostly breech-loading, and even the muskets in circulation have been retrofitted.

What's the matter with the weapon caliber?

Personal pet peeve. I regard a lot of the iconic depictions as somewhat larger than life illustrations, including the need to have something that's closer to the look of miniatures, which usually don't have that much fine detail. Same as with Warhammer before… In the same line I don't think the Forgotten Realms has 80s hairstylists (Elmore), Dark Sun is host to Bay Area SM clubs (Brom) or that the 2050s is full of people with cancerous warts and gigantism (Shadowrun's Laubenstein).

So my IK doesn't have 1/2 in. plate armor and 2 in. barrels, both of which wouldn't really be usable by anything resembling normal humans.

[Lord of ???]

Safety switches are a fairly modern invention. Predominantly since the advent of automatic firearms.

Most holsters I have seen had a guard section over the trigger so it would be very hard to grab the trigger rather than the handle when pulling the gun out.

An example of a notorious pistol is a German Luger. They were notorious for how easy they were to set off. Yet still no safety and were carried around loaded the majority of the time. It's a matter of requirement. Yes you may have a chance of setting of your gun if you are in the habit of fiddling with them or throwing them around, otherwise it's pretty safe.


A lot of the weapons for the IK aren't too bad. The illustrations seem to based off the models a lot of the time, this leads them to having larger barrels. A lot of earlier muskets and the like actually used very large calibres going anywhere up to 0.75. This large round moved into the first carbines and rifles. It wasn't until jacketed ammunition that the sizes reduced.

[Sosthenes]

Some illustrations are "better" than others, of the top of my head I'm thinking of the picture of Julian Helstrom with his smoking pistol. That barrel looks about the size of his wrists…

And regarding the safety, I'm not convinced. You're drawing back a bolt that's activated by a relatively light trigger pull. So the whole action can't be that stiff, i.e. it could be possible to activate it by jostling it enough, whether the trigger itself is safe or not - and swashbuckling gunslingers tend to move around quite a bit.

Still, I'm looking for flavor, not ways to punish my players. I could easily imagine "homebrew" safeties, used by gunslingers and some veteran soldiers. Given the relatively simple bolt mechanism, a lot of guns would just require a simple spacer. Picture a pistoleer drawing both guns at the same time, flicking away two pieces of cork with his thumbs…

[Lord of ???]

It's not a matter of stiffness. The trigger usually presses a plate up which allows the bolt to slide past.

Unless you can get into the mechanism you can't easily set it off.

You could probably do it by dropping the gun from a height or bashing it against something. And that's only if it's a really twitchy trigger.
WW1 rifles, these were primed to fire as soon as a round was chambered, requiring just a light pull of a trigger, yet these could still be used to club people or bayonet them and the round wouldn't fire.
Trigger mechanisms are inherently stable their design means that for the bolt to move a force going a completely different direction needs to be applied.

If you could just shake a gun and have it go off no-one would be able to reload as they would explode as soon as you close the breech back up.


Modern safety switches are there to stop people from pulling the trigger accidentally not to stop the mechanism.

[Sosthenes]

I'm not sure whether I consider the bodgery of the IK to be that reliable. Although that might be one more feature of the otherwise ill-explained "forgelock". Like I said, for flavor reasons, introducing a difference between "cocky" pistoleers and people playing it safe might be worth it, just like Wild West gunslingers who only loaded 5 chambers of their Colts for safety reasons.

[Munindk]

And regarding the safety, I'm not convinced. You're drawing back a bolt that's activated by a relatively light trigger pull. So the whole action can't be that stiff, i.e. it could be possible to activate it by jostling it enough, whether the trigger itself is safe or not - and swashbuckling gunslingers tend to move around quite a bit.

I'm looking at the illustrations on page 190 (ammunition) and page 184 (vanar liberator) and there's no cocking, the pin is pushed forward by pulling the trigger, you arent releasing a cocked pin. I think this makes IK guns less likely to go off if dropped or banged against something, but with a gun without a triggerguard it seems dangerously easy to accidentally snag the trigger on something...
The blunderbuss (page 186) does have a cocking mechanism, but then blunderbusses are described as "somewhat unrefined".

Regarding the calibre thing I agree, a historical musket ball is something like ½ inch in diameter, IK bullets seen to be 1-2 inches.

[Sosthenes]

I'm looking at the illustrations on page 190 (ammunition) and page 184 (vanar liberator) and there's no cocking, the pin is pushed forward by pulling the trigger, you arent releasing a cocked pin.

Well, as I've said before, I'm a bit ware about illustrations that include a big brass handle right at the point where you're supposed to aim… Lock & Load has a few "detailed" pics on pg. 54, where you've interestingly got both break actions and block actions, as well as "strikers" and systems without them. My assumption is that in the latter case, you're cocking the action by either closing the break or by a lever action (cf. Winchester guns).
Cocking just by pulling the trigger sounds a wee bit unrealistic. You've got to pierce a separator lining in the middle (well, 1/3) of packed powder. Mechanically that can't be accomplished by a relatively short trigger pull, unless magic is involved somehow. Never mind that it does miss the point of being a "trigger"…

Assuming a central firing pin, of course. If you've got either a small pin or cutting motion coming out of the barrel where the separation is, you'd need less force. But a) that still would be better with stored energy that's effortlessly triggered and b) it would be a lot more unreliable as the position of the red/black separator would have to be more precise. (Actually, I think the latter came up in a discussion about forge- vs. pinlock here.)

But still, I almost forget about the different cocking mechanisms. Lever action rifles are good to have just for the visual alone, similar to the needless cycling of pump action shotguns in movies.

[Psychomancer]

IK guns should always be handled like real-life guns: As if they are loaded at all times.

[Lord of ???]

I'm not sure whether I consider the bodgery of the IK to be that reliable. Although that might be one more feature of the otherwise ill-explained "forgelock". Like I said, for flavor reasons, introducing a difference between "cocky" pistoleers and people playing it safe might be worth it, just like Wild West gunslingers who only loaded 5 chambers of their Colts for safety reasons.

Well honestly it sounds like you have made up your mind and have just started a thread looking for people to agree with you rather than any worthwhile discussion on the armouries of the Iron Kingdoms.

If that's the flavour you want to go for with massively unreliable weapons somehow being common and no-one bothering to make them better, then go ahead.

[Sosthenes]

Well honestly it sounds like you have made up your mind and have just started a thread looking for people to agree with you rather than any worthwhile discussion on the armouries of the Iron Kingdoms.

Because I don't totally agree with one other poster on one example issue about the flavor of IK guns?

[Warlordtheft]

Safety switches are a fairly modern invention.

Actually they didn't need them until the invention of the cartridge based systems. Before that the primary saftey being the half-c0cked position. The Luger did have a saftey, at least the one I shot when I was a kid. Maybe the earliest models didn't--but I don't think that was the case.

From the description of the weapons, the closest real life example would be the Dreyse needle gun. WIth the firing pin stricking the blasting cap inside the cartridge. In a description of IK firearms basically instead of striking a blasting cap, it shatters a seal allowing the powders to mix and go boom.

Also in the case of the Dreyse needle gun, you have to release a latch on the top of the bolt before firing (sort of a saftey mechnism), and this weapon is from the 1840's.

[Psychomancer]

Actually they didn't need them until the invention of the cartridge based systems. Before that the primary saftey being the half-c0cked position.

Which is, notably, the origin of the idiom "going off half-c0cked." There's probably some wisdom in that.

[Sosthenes]

Stepping away from filter baiting for a while, the L&L picture reminded me of something: Wouldn't it be possible to switch the whole block of a breech block loader rather quickly, given that the gun is properly modified? Something similar to switching revolver cylinders (done prior to speed loaders, IIRC). Given the need to remove the gunk of the paper/fabric cartridge, this could shave of a few precious moments. Not something done by the military, given the relatively small benefit and high-ish cost, but adventurers seem likely candidates for tinkering like that.

[Kriegtanzer]

We must remember that for a number a reasons the IK development of firearms is much different than our own. Much of this is due to the powder differnces.

In our history muzzle loaders were the standard for long time. Because of how IK blasting powder works muzzle loaders may have been a short stage if not skipped entirely. Pouring two powders that react into the barrel loose is right out. Ramming two "bags" of blasting powder down the length of a barrel, even a short pistol, would be very risky. Rip the bags and I hope the rod wasn't pointed at anything important. Breach loaders are going to be the standard giving the properties of blasting powder and it seems the most common type are break action.

[Kriegtanzer]

In looking at the Doug Seacat on... Thread and the files on my computer I discovered that the section I have on Guns and Ammo was not posted, it may have been from after I posted the others. So I added it to the stickied thread. Some of it may be of interest to this discussion.

[Sosthenes]

That's a good point. According to the IKCG, muzzle-loading muskets seem to have been somewhat common, definitely not a skipped stage. Tamping down a packet is fraught with danger, so I would guess that step were taken to minimze that - if not by the gunsmiths, than by the solders using them. Smoothbore is definitely less likely to rip the packet than rifling, and you'd prefer a thinner package, so it glides down with less resistance. And afterwards, you don't want to ram down the bullet too hard. Of courses this creates a weaker seal, so a lot of the blast energy gets lost.

Not entirely unprecedented in our history. With some early rifles, you had a patch so that the round itself connected better with the rifling. This slowed down reloading, so when in a hurry, some soldiers just put (or spit) the lead round in there without the leather patch. Then they noticed that this also reduces the kickback, and, well…

[Kriegtanzer]

Good point. Muzzle loaders would be a quite a bit safer without rifling. The invention of rifling may have been the driving force in the development or adoption of the breach loader in the IK.

[Sosthenes]

So I added it to the stickied thread. Some of it may be of interest to this discussion.

Thanks. I did have that on file, and it reminded me of something: Doug notes that the blast powder leaves a residue, depending on the quality of the alchemist creating it. While there might be some alchemical excuses for that, isn't it that in our world, i.e. with black powder, both this fouling and the pretty generous gunsmoke are basically the same source?

For some kind of reason, I've always considered the IK guns to be a bit more smoke-less. Don't ask me why, probably a purely visual thing. Shootouts in closed rooms that get quite a bit fogged up after the first few exchanges are definitely as cool.

So how do you guys picture that? Smoke + residue aplenty? Just residue, due to chemical differences between blastpowder and blackpowder? Or other big contributors to fouling, e.g. the paper/silk cartridge?

I've been going with the latter, as this neatly coincides with our historic guns (as far as I know). I think the Dreyse needle guns had this problem, later rifles that introduced metallic cartridges fared much better. The IK basically seem to be right at this step, right? I think I saw some brass cartridges in some wargame illustrations.

The invention of rifling may have been the driving force in the development or adoption of the breach loader in the IK.

Or the other way 'round. Once a breech loader is effective enough, you can finally make rifling the standard.

[Kriegtanzer]

They use brass cartriges for some of the larger military weapons. The machine guns the trenchers use and on some of the Warjack guns and light artillary pieces I think. I don't play Warmachine so I don't know much about them, they are beyond the scale of our RPGing.

The Firestorm revolver uses them but they are very expensive and in my opinion the cause of the failure of the gun's marketability. The Firestorm makes too many technology jumps from the base handgun to be successful financially. Since handgun sized cased ammo has to be speciality made it becomes only a toy for the rich. History is littered with many such interesting designs.

My guess the first successful IK revolver would use pre-loaded cylanders with standard silk wrapped ammo.

I have definately pictured smoke from blasting powder, maybe a little less than blackpowder but much more than modern smokeless powder.

The manufacture quality of the powder would have an effect on the residue left in the barrel. The cartridge material will also effect the residue. Silk leaves an ash as does paper. The ash from paper would vary greatly with the type and qualities of the paper used. There is probably quite a difference between cheap coarse ground powder in high ash paper cartridges and military grade fine ground powder in silk cartridges.

[Sosthenes]

Some things that came to mind while reading and posting in other threads:

The amount of blasting powder required seems rather high to me. If a rifler's pound gives you 8 shots for a military rifle, that's like 50 grams/2 oz? A quick google search gives me a maximum of 15 grams/0.5 oz for a Brown Bess musket. I don't think that common IK soldiers could withstand 4 times the kick, so is blast powder one quarter as efficient?

And speaking of "military rifle": That term has to go in my campaign. We do have some named weapons, but most of them are pretty oddball ones. Do we have the names, nicknames and/or manufacturers of the various nations military rifles or pistols in some source? Or did some of you make up names for them? If not, I'll have to cook up something before that term gets used enough, it's about as boring as saying "gold piece" all the time. Preferably the predecessors of the current weaponry should have names, too, so that veterans can ramble on about progress or their discontent with it.

[StJason]

The thing that always puzzled me on IK gun design was efficiency. Of the cartridge.

As drawn, you have the slug at the top, a packet of (red) powder, then a divider, and a packet of (black) powder. To fire, you drove a needle from the far end, through the (black) powder through the divider, and presumably into the red. Boom.
...wouldn't it make more sense to have a wider blade and push it through the side, parallel to the divider?

Alternately, if mixing the charges is an issue, then wouldn't putting the two charges side-by-side make more sense? Again, use a flatter chisel-like pin, slice the divider between them.

[StJason]

And speaking of "military rifle": That term has to go in my campaign. We do have some named weapons, but most of them are pretty oddball ones. Do we have the names, nicknames and/or manufacturers of the various nations military rifles or pistols in some source? Or did some of you make up names for them? If not, I'll have to cook up something before that term gets used enough, it's about as boring as saying "gold piece" all the time. Preferably the predecessors of the current weaponry should have names, too, so that veterans can ramble on about progress or their discontent with it.

The problem is that there are literally thousands of small forges making more or less comparable rifles. Every city has a dozen riflesmiths, and most big towns have at least one. There are a few that stand out, Clockworks Arms, Vislovski Rifles, and so on. But "Applewhite's Arms" is just a mediocre seller.

...hrm... Actually, you could make for an interesting chart for that. Random name generator, slight edge/quirk (needs to be jiggled to be reloaded, slightly miscast barrel, tight fittings, smoother action... +/-5' range, +/-1 to reload DCs... of course, only Clockworks or Vanar forges carry their particular weapons, but if you stop into "Mel's Hitchin Post & Artillery" and pick up a "Mel's Long Barrel Supreme" (+5' to range, +1 to damage).
...you could go so far as to remove the mods from the player's control "I want this military rifle with Accuracy Customization!" and instead just make them part of the reputation of the individual forge. "Mel's rifles... well, they are cheap. Applewhite, on the other hand, makes some of the straightest barrels you ever saw!"

[Sosthenes]

The problem is that there are literally thousands of small forges making more or less comparable rifles.

I never bought into that, at least for military equipment.

[StJason]

"military" is a descriptor, not necessarily a designation. Think of it 'military-style' rifle if it bothers you.

[Sosthenes]

But just because independent gunsmiths would also produce military-grade rifles (boar-hunting & mercs?) doesn't make it any more likely that military regiments would be equipped with a haphazard collection of different designs and makes. That would make repair and maintenance a nightmare and could seriously mess up weapons drill - it would be a logistical and tactical disaster.

And we actually do know that Crucible Arms is/was running the Corvis foundries who were supposed to manufacture the actions and other delicate parts.

After that, it's possible that things are "out-sourced" to different smithies, some small, some large. I'd assume that the lion's share would be done by pretty large companies. There'd also be a lot of conversions, reusing old stocks, and adapting them for new firing mechanisms, sights etc. But at the very least we'd have a common pattern, even if it would be delivered by different makers. And if "Cygnarian Pattern '96" might be a bit cumbersome, soldiers will find something more pronounceable. And complain about the increased weight or the bigger kickback. And with the next sentence praise their babies to high heaven when a Khadoran ex-mercenary is bragging about his rifle.

[Munindk]

What if "Cygnaran Pattern '96" was a schematic that was given to a lot of smaller workshops to produce?

[StJason]

But just because independent gunsmiths would also produce military-grade rifles (boar-hunting & mercs?) doesn't make it any more likely that military regiments would be equipped with a haphazard collection of different designs and makes. That would make repair and maintenance a nightmare and could seriously mess up weapons drill - it would be a logistical and tactical disaster.

And we actually do know that Crucible Arms is/was running the Corvis foundries who were supposed to manufacture the actions and other delicate parts.

After that, it's possible that things are "out-sourced" to different smithies, some small, some large. I'd assume that the lion's share would be done by pretty large companies. There'd also be a lot of conversions, reusing old stocks, and adapting them for new firing mechanisms, sights etc. But at the very least we'd have a common pattern, even if it would be delivered by different makers. And if "Cygnarian Pattern '96" might be a bit cumbersome, soldiers will find something more pronounceable. And complain about the increased weight or the bigger kickback. And with the next sentence praise their babies to high heaven when a Khadoran ex-mercenary is bragging about his rifle.

...right. Not sure where you are having the issue, then.
It's not that the Cygnaran army goes out and buys 12 rifles from Tom The Blacksmith (& gun merchant). It's that they take bids from big foundrys who are capable of making 2,000 rifles in a reasonable amount of time cheaper then the other forge.

But for individual adventurers? They're happy to go to Tom the Blacksmith.

[Sosthenes]

You spoil your players. Mine go to Bob, the Army Surplus Merchant.

Or they still have their service rifles, want to buy them, if that's not the case. Any anyhow, apart from a few "boutique" shops for rich nobleman who want their triple-barrel hunting rifles, I still assume that most gunsmiths adhere pretty much to the default pattern. If only for the case that if they can't sell it at a premium to silly dungeon dwellers and witch hunters, the army is always buying it.

One historical tidbit I'm still trying to place is "trade rifles", i.e. the cheap, shoddy stuff that were sold to Native Americans. Can't think of a proper clientele. Apart from adventurers, of course

[HerrDeux]

One historical tidbit I'm still trying to place is "trade rifles", i.e. the cheap, shoddy stuff that were sold to Native Americans. Can't think of a proper clientele. Apart from adventurers, of course

How about the trollkin kriels? Seems analogous enough. Broken treaties signed by Grindar...savages from the plains and woods, aka native dirt lickers.

[Sosthenes]

What do the Trollkins have to offer in trade?

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

I always assumed the kriels were able to at least barter for some stuff, since the modern unified kriel army commonly uses surplus or decommissioned Cygnaran arms, and they can't ALL be from the initial stockpiles handed over when Madrak and Leto made their treaty. Trollkin might not use the cheap rifles themselves, preferring the scatterguns and sluggers as befits their physique, but they've learned that pygs can handle human rifles pretty effectively.

[The Happy Anarchist]

What do the Trollkins have to offer in trade?

Money, from labor or other trade. Handcrafted items, particularly stone. Booze, really really really good booze. Tobacco. Mercenary work. Weapons and armor, particularly melee weapons and armor. Scrolls, histories and the like. Food & Lodging when not commonly expected for a caravan travelling farther through the woods. Loot from war and raiding.

A lot of this isn't as common anymore, due to them being uprooted, but some of it is more common.

[StJason]

Money, from labor or other trade. Handcrafted items, particularly stone. Booze, really really really good booze. Tobacco. Mercenary work. Weapons and armor, particularly melee weapons and armor. Scrolls, histories and the like. Food & Lodging when not commonly expected for a caravan travelling farther through the woods. Loot from war and raiding.

A lot of this isn't as common anymore, due to them being uprooted, but some of it is more common.

Trade routes. Trollkin won territories during their uprisings, and still have the rights to many of these lands. Speaking of which, how about mining, lumber or other rights to those lands?
IIRC, Trollkin are some of the best stonesmiths in Western Immoren. Their work is always in demand. Also they are phenomenal at weaving, and their cloth is also in much demand.

[Munindk]

There's also the good old "if you give us some old guns, we promise not to steal more of your land or shoot you with your own guns" ploy.