Oh noes - UK Masters!

[SillySod]

Ok, lets cut a short story short. While enquiring about the UK tournament scene in general Jamie_P managed to trick me into buying a ticket for the UK Masters. "Only five tickets left" he said (there were two) so I had a little panic and made the purchase. Then I realised that I probably ought to read the rulepack and stuff. Uh oh!

Its a 50 point event using the divide and conquer format so I need three different fifty point lists and I'm going to have to play each one at least twice.

Unfortunately:
- I have no experience of playing a turn in less than half an hour
- I have very little experience playing tabletop
- I'm used to 35 point games, I have played very very few 50 point games
- limited model collection (listed below)

On the plus side I have played quite alot of VASSAL. I have an excellent knowledge of the rules and I tend to win. So its not all bad, I'm not a noob, just out of my depth.

Hopefully that should give you some context. Now, what I'm looking for is list advice.

...

The Plan So Far

pKrueger (with miscellaneous)
eKrueger (with wolds)
???? (with bloodtrackers, maybe)

pKrueger

pKrueger is non-negotiable. I dont have a ton of experience with him and I'm pretty sure I dont have the correct set of models. However, the lightning man gives me a very simple way to handle iron flesh and general infantry spam. There are probably "better" options (Mohsar + megalith/pureblood comes to mind) but they are more complex so the advantages of a nuanced infantry-handler are going to melt away pretty quickly under time pressure. My brain can probably handle "lightning the mens, trade the heavies" so pKrueger is in.

pKrueger (+5)
* Feral - 9
* Feral - 9
* Stalker - 10
* Warden - 9
* Gorax - 4

Bloodweavers - 5
Blood Trackers (min) - 5
Shifting Stones - 2
Shifting Stones - 2

I know, I know, its a terrible list. The plan is to use the stones to threaten some teleports while actually using them as lightning rods and fury management. The beasts speak for themselves - a simple line of heavy hitters plus a warden. The bloodweavers are included because they are amazing with pKrueger. The trackers are basicly filler - a fast skirmish unit and a nod to my complete lack of tarpit.

eKrueger

eKrueger is one of my favourite casters at the moment. He works great with everything and I've had alot of success with a wold oriented force. Amongst other things this list is intended to handle eLylyth. I could be persuaded not to use this list but you would have to make a very strong argument.

eKrueger (+5)
* Megalith - 11
* Warden - 9
* Warden - 9
* Guardian - 9
Shifting Stones (+UA) - 3
Shifitng Stones - 2

My quandry is how to spend the remaining 12 points. I want to fit in a warpwolf, blackclad, and LotF but obviously thats not possible. A timidly played unit of woldstalkers might be pretty handy but I'm worried they would just be shot off the board.

????

The third list really could be anything. Well, it cant be Grayle cos he is bollocks and it cant be eBaldur because I already put Megalith with eKrueger (plus eBaldur deserves better than the rag tag force I would give him).

Currently I'm looking at:
- pKaya with many warpwolves and trackers/weavers to tarpit. pKaya is better than people think so I might be able to catch someone out. Sadly it lacks some fear factor so maybe doesnt adequately support my other two lists
- eKaya with the same deal. She isnt as dynamic as pKaya but running an all stealth army could be pretty important.
- pBaldur with trackers and warpwolves. I tried this a few nights ago and it impressed me. Stoneskin trackers made my opponents gatorman tarpit look like a joke and pBaldur supports piece trading quite well with his feat and rapid growth. No megalith though and if the trackers die cheaply then I will probably lose.
- Mohsar could be a great option with heavy pressure from his trackers. Again though, I'm worried that if the trackers die I'm going to be left looking like a chump.
- Morvahna is tempting but I'm not sure how the list would look. Is the witch doctor out yet? The big appeal here is that I could just move models around the board while rolling my eyes wildly saying "derp derp derp" and have a reasonable chance of getting away with it if I can dodge upkeep removal.
- Kromac. I dont feel comfotable using the optimal Kromac strategy because of the big distances and guesses involved (I'd get fussy about it and blow my turn time). However, Kromac is such a good caster that that might not really matter. I'm pondering drawing up a list that appears to use optimal Kromac theory but is actually intended to throw itself down my opponents throat and score chump surf assassinations.

Reinforcements

Unfortunately the current steamroller rules require me to bring 10 points of reinforcements on top of the three seperate fifty point lists. Given that I'm already stretched for models this makes pretty much all the tier lists out of bounds.

I'm currently planning to use a full unit of wolfriders as my reserves in every list.

My Collection

pBaldur, Kromac, pKaya, eKaya (I dont object to buying additional casters, I'm already planning to purchase both Kuegers)

Megalith, Warden x2, Guardian, Stalker, Pureblood, Feral x2, Argus, Gorax, Woldwyrd (no Satyrs, I'm unlikely to buy a gnarlhorn just yet but could be tempted)

Shifting Stones x2 +UA, Bloodweavers, Bloodtrackers (min), Wolf Riders (8 of them!), Woldstalkers, Ravagers (min) + UA + WA (I'll max out the trackers when I buy extra casters)

Lord of the Feast, Blackclad, Whitemane

I have all the cards and a tape measure but I guess I probably ought to buy lots of tokens and things. Any idea if I get away with not having a rulebook?


...

Advice Needed

Mostly I'm looking for list advice but really anything tournament specific would be greatly appreciated.

Big post.

Cheers

[Blackraine]

My friend is running Goreshade and as many Seethers as he can get his hands on, and I think pKaya will work about as well. Both lists work off of a low model count that, in goreshade's case, generates its own focus and, in Kaya's case, is less penalized for using fury. The pKaya list is a little more fragile (no battlegroup stealth, squisher caster, etc) but isn't without a few tricks of its own. eKaya would work well in that regard (and she has a longer threat range with her warpwolves) but you'd need to take more support to keep the fury levels down. Kromac is also good in a beast heavy list, I've heard, but I don't have much experience with him (having only played about 5 games in the last 2 years).

As for not having the rulebook... from what I gather, if you have the War Room app, you can substitute that for the rulebook (at least, they seem to insinuate that in the previews for it). Whether that actually will be released in time, or not, I'm not sure.

[dmcgr19800]

I suggest Kromac the ravenous as your third warlock. He works well against Cryx and Cygnar by shutting off arc nodes. My typical reinforcements are thrulg with wolf riders.

[Patuljak]

As far as I see it, you've got an infantry clearing and a control list. For a third list, I'd put in some heavy hitting and countermagic, as it helps immensly against certain matchups. Kromac or eKaya tier, both with lots of warpwolves, should do the trick.

Edit: noticed you don't own Druids. I'd suggest Kromac with something like this:

Kromac 54
Stalker 44
Feral 35
Pureblood/Woldguardian 26
Gorax 22
2x Stones + UA 17
Woldstalkers 12
Full Wolf Riders 2
Blackclad 0

Reinforcments: Feral, or possibly Trackers + Weavers?



I also highly suggest the purchase of a Druid Wilder. It's an awesome solo for hit and run armies that need animi to function properly or alternatively lets you go nuts with beasts and condition the fury off.

[SillySod]

One thing that struck me is that I dont have a real answer for Circle/Kromac. Preparing for the mirror matchup is probably just as important as preparing for khador or legion or whatever and I havent really bothered to cover it at all.

I guess this is a bit of a faction-wide problem as Kromac is very likely to appear in most circle armies but doesnt have any obvious counters (that I can think of). Playing a true mirror matchup or just a pseudo-mirror (with eKaya or something) seems like too much of a swingy game?

[Tevelyn]

well... Kromac is our strongest caster, and you've got most of the models he wants anyway. Do you have a budget for how you can expand before tourney day? You need at least a wilder if you want your lists to work and past that it's going to depend on how stuck you are with what you have.

You're close to a t4 pbalder list too and ekreuger really isn't all hot and heavy for a megalith.

Tev

[McFeely]

My personal preference when using eKrueger, pKrueger, and Kromac at 50 points would be as follows.

Army Name: Kromac 50 #2
Circle Orboros
50+4 points, 29 models

Kromac the Ravenous +4 points
* Feral Warpwolf 9 points
* Ghetorix 11 points
* Gorax 4 points
* Warpwolf Stalker 10 points
* Druid Wilder 2 points

Druid Stoneward & Woldstalkers 5 points
Druid Stoneward & Woldstalkers 5 points
2x Gallows Grove 1 point each
Shifting Stones 2 points
* Stone Keeper 1 point
Shifting Stones 2 points
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew 1 point

Max wolf riders as reinforcements.

Army Name: eKrueger 50 Theme
Circle Orboros
Theme Force: Wake of Destruction Tier 4
50+5 points, 30 models

Krueger the Stormlord +5 points
* 2x Wold Guardian 9 points each
* Woldwarden 9 points

2x Blackclad Wayfarer 2 points each
Druids of Orboros 7 points
* Druid of Orboros Overseer
Druids of Orboros 7 points
* Druid of Orboros Overseer 2 points
3x Gallows Grove 1 point each
Shifting Stones 2 points
* Stone Keeper 1 point
Shifting Stones 2 points

Woldwarden and gallows grove as reinforcements

Army Name: pKrueger 50
Circle Orboros
50+5 points, 26 models

Krueger the Stormwrath +5 points
* 2x Feral Warpwolf 9 points each
* Gorax 4 points
* Warpwolf Stalker 10 points
* Druid Wilder 2 points

Blackclad Wayfarer 2 points
Druids of Orboros 7 points
* Druid of Orboros Overseer 2 points
2x Gallows Grove 1 point each
Shifting Stones 2 points
* Stone Keeper 1 point
Tharn Bloodweavers 5 points

max bloodtrackers with Nuala as reinforcements

I would also like to suggest this list as a possibility

Army Name: pBaldur 50 Theme
Circle Orboros
Theme Force: Rock of Orboros Tier 4
50+6 points, 38 models

Baldur the Stonecleaver +6 points
* Megalith 10 points
* Wold Guardian 8 points
* Woldwarden 8 points

Druid Stoneward & Woldstalkers 5 points
Druid Stoneward & Woldstalkers 5 points
Druids of Orboros 7 points
* Druid of Orboros Overseer 2 points
Sentry Stone & Mannikins 3 points
Sentry Stone & Mannikins 3 points
Shifting Stones 2 points
* Stone Keeper 1 point
Shifting Stones 2 points

Blackclad wayfarer and either a wold guardian or woldwarden as reinforcements


All of these lists have treated me quite well. The problem is that I believe that you said that you do not have access to a lot of these models. As was asked earlier, what is your budget like for model purchasing? Do you think you can pick up the missing models?

-McScrotington

[SillySod]

Re: Kromac...

Lots of people are suggesting Kromac. On the one hand you are all correct that he is a solid choice and even fits the stuff I have. On the other hand I dont want to take him because I dont think I'll be able to do him justice (big distances plus timed turns will make me panic). I dont really want to see any more Kromac lists - its playing him rather than the listbuilding which is giving me problems. I probably ought to give him a trial run though so I guess he is still on the cards if the practice goes alot better than I'm expecting

As was asked earlier, what is your budget like for model purchasing? Do you think you can pick up the missing models?

Yes and no. I'm not working to a specific budget but I mostly want to work within my current collection. I only just bought my current set of stuff so I want to enjoy it a bit before filling out all the options. Hence I dont intend to buy anything more than warlocks, a solo or two, and maybe either druids or a gnarlhorn. Tier lists are out of the question.

Update

I've got a good deal further with the lists. I tried out Morvahna again the other day and she was so much fun to play that I'm more or less settled on her as the suprise third caster unless Kromac turns out to be easy. My overall plan is to have three swing lists all oriented around heavies. Hopefully that will cut down most opponents list options and leave me to choose between three different flavours of abuse - lightning, TK, and regrowth.

pKrueger - as above

eKrueger (+5)
* Megalith - 11
* Warden - 9
* Warden - 9
* Guardian - 9
Shifting Stones (+UA) - 3
Shifitng Stones - 2
Bloodtrackers (min) - 5
Woldstalkers - 5
Blackclad - 2

Morvahna (+6)
* Feral - 9
* Stalker - 10
* Pureblood - 9
* Gorax - 4
Druids (+UA) - 9
Shifting Stones (+UA) - 3
Shifting Stones - 2
Woldstalkers - 5
Swamp Gobbers - 1
Lord of the Feast - 4

At this stage I'm looking for rough tweaks to optimise the lists and problem matchups if anyone can spot any.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

First thing I'd recommend is probably to swap your Bloodtrackers and Druids to the opposite list. Morvahna is just BEGGING for a full unit of Bloodtrackers with Nuala. Krueger lists Bloodtrackers too but Druids wouldn't be bad in his list. If you wanted you might be able to try running both Druids and Bloodtrackers with Nuala by cutting out one of the heavies. Also, Morvahna doesn't hate a Woldwarden either.

Krueger2 wouldn't mind more living warbeasts that hit hard either if you aren't going with a theme force.

[Jamie P]

Sorry dude I didnt realise this was your model/game situation, my bad

[taffyjoe]

If you're on a limited budget the only things I'd suggest buying would be 4 more bloodtrackers and Nuala to fill the unit out and a pack of gallows groves, as all your warlocks will like them.

Going with Kruger 1+2 and Morv should be ok. Anti-Circle could be the Morv list as circle often lacks upkeep removal or large quantities of remove from play. However, Morv really wants a full unit of trackers to make her sing. Against Kromac he'll either be casting bestiall all the time and not have many transfers - in which case sit back, use the groves to shoot into the bestial area (keeping them outside it) and rely on the trackers to drind through his beasts - not ideal but possible and probably the best caster you have. And your not guarenteed a circle vs circle matchup.

The Ekruger list wants more punchy wolves and less geomanciers and all of them want the gallows groves. Apart from that i'd stick with what you have and just practice with them.

[Sanctjud]

pKrueger
* 2x Feral Warpwolf
* Gorax
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Druid Wilder

Blackclad Wayfarer
Druids of Orboros
* Druid of Orboros Overseer
2x Gallows Grove
Shifting Stones
* Stone Keeper
Tharn Bloodweavers

max bloodtrackers with Nuala as reinforcements

The battle group looks good. Good anti-heavy and infantry esp. with cycyling Tendrils.
Gallows and Stones are pretty self explanatory. Wavers give you some utility and living hate.
Druids are ok in delivering your army and push/pull.


eKrueger (+5)
* Megalith - 11
* Warden - 9
* Warden - 9
* Guardian - 9
Shifting Stones (+UA) - 3
Shifitng Stones - 2
Bloodtrackers (min) - 5
Woldstalkers - 5
Blackclad - 2


Warden/Gallows reinforcements?

That’s a lot of Geomancy, so infantry isn’t a huge problem. There is a lot of gallows possibility (and TK) and his feat for scenario of course, but the biggest thing about the list is that the highest armor cracker is the Guardian, which it can do, but it’s not up there like them Primaled Wolf options. The rest look ok I guess, the Stalkers I like in the list more than the min BloodTrackers though.


Morvahna (+6)
* Feral - 9
* Stalker - 10
* Pureblood - 9
* Gorax - 4
Druids (+UA) - 9
Shifting Stones (+UA) - 3
Shifting Stones - 2
Woldstalkers - 5
Swamp Gobbers - 1
Lord of the Feast – 4

Reinforcements?

I don’t know much about her, but the lack of Bloodtrackers with Nuala seems weird with her.

[Snowmelter]

Circle´s RFP effects:
Fertilzer- on Woldwatcher (being more played since eBaldur) and Cassius
Bloodweaver-often played with pKrueger, Mohsar, but good with any lock
Crevasse- On Mohsar and eBaldur
Ghetorix with snacking- For sure in one of the three lists

Anti-upkeep:
Bloodweaver
wyrd (semi-good vs several of morv´s upkeep)

Anti-magic in Circle:
Lots

=Morvahna is not the best lock for mirror matches.

Kromac is good vs circle, Mohsar is also good. I prefer Mohsar.

My three Locks would be:
pKrueger
Mohsar with Megalith
Cassius with Ghetorix and Nuala

But you would have to buy a lot of models for this.

[taffyjoe]

Hellmouth too.

The thing is, is that while Circle has options, not many of them are that common, at least in my meta. And the op had specified circle/Kromac and I was leaning towards the anti-Kromac. Of the things you list only Ghetorix's snacking tramples you need to be wary about. Although I don't have masses of experience either with or against him.

I think Morv vs. kromac would depend on the Morv list build. If its Skillit's versions (the now ubitqtious Warpath abuser and anti-shooting Morv) then probably not such a good match up, a Morv list geared more towards Warpwolves as heavy hitters then it may stand a better chance.

The advice I was giving was also geared towards minimum buying. He could get 3 decent lists out of what he has with Kruger 1+2, Mohsar and Morv just by filling out his trackers. It leaves him open to circle match-ups. Maybe your right and a pillar spamming mohsar would be a better bet, I love him against Hordes, although Kromac can cope best of any warlock against his feat (counter feating to get back to full fury if nescessary).

[SillySod]

Ok, quick update.

Just a quick word of thanks for all the responses. I'm not necessarily following all of the advice (which might seem infuriating :P) but I am making sure to read everything through a couple of times and its definately helped solidify my ideas as well as giving me plenty of stuff to watch out for and chew over after the tournament.

Morvahna - definately going druids instead of bloodtrackers.

The druids are slightly more resilient to remove from play effects and small bits and pieces such as hex blast. They are also a little quicker to play (fewer dice) and bloody cheeky as a tarpit. Vortex spam is viable, reach is neat, and the freedom to sneak in some very deep force bolts is pretty handy. This feels like an argument for another thread though - there are pros and cons to both units and I can totally understand if not using trackers horrifies you. Druids are what I've chosen though so please base any advice around that.

Druids and trackers is an interesting idea too but, like I said, I think we should maybe have a main forum debate on Morvahna.

eKrueger - completely based around countering eLylyth and it just happens to do other things. In order to beat eLylyth it needs those four wolds to make sure it can survive her attrtion game with enough pieces to bring her down. Ideally it would have a gnarlhorn in there too as a fifth heavy to help ram home the durability factor as well as make everything ridiculously fast even without teleports from the stones (a guardian can charge 13.5"!). Unfortuantely no gnarlhorn.

I've actually had quite alot of experience with the eKrueger list at 35 points and it has never felt pillowfisted - heavies get wrecked by the amount of TK flying around. I've also grown very fond of geomancy because I find it valuable to be able to TK early in the turn but feat much later in the turn (to help extend my threat range). However, I can definately see that a primal warpwolf would be a valuable addition to help deal with camping casters. Plus the madness threat range. I also just noticed that a warp-armour feral is almost as durable as a warden (7 extra boxes vs +4 def) which is obviously making me wonder if I shouldnt include one after all. I guess testing is needed.

pKrueger - uncontroversial?

I'm still working from my list proposed at the top of the thread. It seems not to have offended anyone which is hopefully a good sign and people generally seem to agree that pKrueger is good to have around. Are two units of shifting stones and a warden enough to get the chain lightning going or is it possible that they'll fall short of their desired targets? (winterguard, etc).

Circle Mirror

I have developed a super-secret plan. It requires the element of suprise though so I wont be spilling the beans here.

This is another area where I'd like to see more discussion in the main circle forum. Our mirror matchup situation is odd to say the least.

Sorry dude I didnt realise this was your model/game situation, my bad

Thats ok. While I wouldnt have gone for the UK Masters if I'd known/read the ruleset I'm actually really enjoying the runup to the event. Lots of angst, highly pressured turns, new lists to formulate... its given me alot to think about and plenty to do which is what I was looking for anyway

I figure that I would have to go through most of this at some stage anyway so it doesnt hurt to get it out the way.

[gaminguy]

Totally non-list-related tip here: go to the Muse on Minis site and look up their podcast on preparing for your first tournament. They go over a whole lot of important things if you can get past how often they get sidetracked.