A curious question about The RPG

[PsychoRoger]

So with the advent of the new RPG what should I do with my old books (have the Original LoL primer), Monsternomicon Vol 1&2, The Character Guide, The Campaign Guide and I think I mislaid one or two more books. Will they at least be useful for the fluff contained therein (Aside from the fact the Campaign Guide has lore from the very beginning of the current war)?

[Lord of ???]

As far as I am aware, they aren't changing any of the fluff at all.

So they will still be useful for their background info.

[Psychomancer]

Yeah, the setting is not changing beyond the established canon of the RPG/Wargame.

If I recall, you get to have a sense of pride at having the original books. This may or may not be included with your copy of the new RPG.

[Sosthenes]

I wouldn't be entirely sure about that. There's a certain amount of fluff bits that are strongly connected with the crunch, i.e. the D20 system and its D&D legacy. Won't change the geopolitical landscape and certainly doesn't make the existing books worthless, though.

Personally I just hope the few changes necessary will just be made without any fanfare at all. We've always been at war with Eastasia. The increased demand of the military made blast powder cheaper, surprise! (Anyone remember the 1E->2E Forgotten Realms switchover where all of a sudden all assassins dropped dead because the class wasn't in the books anymore. Yikes.)

[HerrDeux]

I wouldn't be entirely sure about that. There's a certain amount of fluff bits that are strongly connected with the crunch, i.e. the D20 system and its D&D legacy. Won't change the geopolitical landscape and certainly doesn't make the existing books worthless, though.

Personally I just hope the few changes necessary will just be made without any fanfare at all. We've always been at war with Eastasia. The increased demand of the military made blast powder cheaper, surprise! (Anyone remember the 1E->2E Forgotten Realms switchover where all of a sudden all assassins dropped dead because the class wasn't in the books anymore. Yikes.)

Wasn't it the breaking of the Order of the Golden Crucible monopoly that dropped the price of blasting powder, in spite of the spike in demand?

[PsychoLaughs]

Wasn't it the breaking of the Order of the Golden Crucible monopoly that dropped the price of blasting powder, in spite of the spike in demand?

i believe that is correct. with the fall of lerin, there are multiple alchemists from the crucible that are selling powder at much reduced prices because the competition has increased (the order of the golden crucible no longer holds monopoly on the blasting powder formula). this also means there is a risk of unscrupulous alchemist selling low grade powder.

prices may go back up once the order establishes a new head quarters (i think the remaining high ranking members are leaning towards somewhere in ord), but the monopoly on powder will unlikely ever be regained.

[Psychomancer]

Well, I suppose there's a chance that we'll find that Corvis is now in Cryx, Vinter is the King of Khador, and Rhul has disappeared under a swarm of Dragonspawn, rendering Dwarfs a thing of the IK past, never to be depicted or spoken of in game again, Ios is on Laris, and battles are fought by warcrafters bereft of any magical abilities leading the armies of Southern Ammoren from the back of nuclear-powered lawnmowers.

All that COULD be in the new RPG, which would, yes, make your old supplements utterly obsolete for purposes of fluff and thematic purposes. I'm not saying it will, though.

[Munindk]

Ik 0,608k?

[Sosthenes]

Wasn't it the breaking of the Order of the Golden Crucible monopoly that dropped the price of blasting powder, in spite of the spike in demand?

We went pretty fast from that causing ammo shortages (IKWG) to decimating the price of blasting powder. Which is why I'm calling retcon.

And if I remember correctly, the character creating preview had the sample character buy a gun right from the start, so it seems that price is dropping, too. So my guess is that the PP guys want us to have MOAR GUNS. Which I'm perfectly fine with, as the initial pricing was pretty ridiculous… (just like Str+ bows)

[PPS_Simon]

i believe that is correct. with the fall of lerin, there are multiple alchemists from the crucible that are selling powder at much reduced prices because the competition has increased (the order of the golden crucible no longer holds monopoly on the blasting powder formula). this also means there is a risk of unscrupulous alchemist selling low grade powder.

prices may go back up once the order establishes a new head quarters (i think the remaining high ranking members are leaning towards somewhere in ord), but the monopoly on powder will unlikely ever be regained.

This is a concise summation of the situation. For more details I'd refer you to No Quarter Magazine #27 and the article: Sign & Sigil - Order of the Golden Crucible for the full details. That said, the pertinent information regarding the current blasting powder market and the breaking of the OGC's monopoly will be discussed at least briefly in the new IKRPG core book, in the "Life in the Iron Kingdoms" chapter.

[The Happy Anarchist]

We went pretty fast from that causing ammo shortages (IKWG) to decimating the price of blasting powder. Which is why I'm calling retcon.

And if I remember correctly, the character creating preview had the sample character buy a gun right from the start, so it seems that price is dropping, too. So my guess is that the PP guys want us to have MOAR GUNS. Which I'm perfectly fine with, as the initial pricing was pretty ridiculous… (just like Str+ bows)

A year or two? That doesn't seem super fast to me. At first there is a shortage, as the major source of distribution got shattered, disrupting supply chains, tossing everything into chaos and making people flee for their lives. However, the monopoly is broken, so the scattered remnants go where ever they can to either start over, find protection or sign on with other nations. Suddenly there is several sources, all competing with each other, bringing prices down to their more natural levels.

Seems totally reasonable to me.

[Sosthenes]

A very valuable substance during war time causing their manufacturers, who were previously presiding over a very controlled monopoly (and very organized), to start outbidding each other? Never mind finding the actual capabilities to do that, I would expect price fixing to be the natural result of that. Or the nations taking over production themselves, especially considering that Khador already started that.

I don't own NQM #27, so there might be something in there that justifies this a bit better, an IK FTC of sorts… Like it is, it does sound too much like a libertarian pipe dream, as much as I appreciate bringing down the prices to a more reasonable level that finally allows me to have swampies with blunderbusses…

[PPS_Simon]

A very valuable substance during war time causing their manufacturers, who were previously presiding over a very controlled monopoly (and very organized), to start outbidding each other? Never mind finding the actual capabilities to do that, I would expect price fixing to be the natural result of that. Or the nations taking over production themselves, especially considering that Khador already started that.

I don't own NQM #27, so there might be something in there that justifies this a bit better, an IK FTC of sorts… Like it is, it does sound too much like a libertarian pipe dream, as much as I appreciate bringing down the prices to a more reasonable level that finally allows me to have swampies with blunderbusses…

Having written the article, I'm pretty sure it's not a libertarian pipe dream.

[Lieutenant Obvious]

I don't own NQM #27, so there might be something in there that justifies this a bit better, an IK FTC of sorts… Like it is, it does sound too much like a libertarian pipe dream, as much as I appreciate bringing down the prices to a more reasonable level that finally allows me to have swampies with blunderbusses…

What about giving them rusty old pinlock weapons? They wouldn't look that different, and affordability wouldn't be an issue, as most non-swampies see pinlock guns as outdated junk. Not that that's any consolation if you're on the big end when it goes off...

[Sosthenes]

Having written the article, I'm pretty sure it's not a libertarian pipe dream.

That's exactly what a libertarian pipe smoker would say!

What about giving them rusty old pinlock weapons?

Prior to the alchemical antitrust action (or whatever NQM #27's secret is), that would've been foiled by the high price of blast powder. No matter how cheap, decrepit or ancient the weapon is, you'd still be throwing gold pieces into the swamp.

[StJason]

I admit I rather liked guns being rare and special. Not happy the new RPG is all multifire weapons everywhere...

[PG_Duckboy]

I admit I rather liked guns being rare and special. Not happy the new RPG is all multifire weapons everywhere...

it is? huh

[The Happy Anarchist]

A very valuable substance during war time causing their manufacturers, who were previously presiding over a very controlled monopoly (and very organized), to start outbidding each other? Never mind finding the actual capabilities to do that, I would expect price fixing to be the natural result of that. Or the nations taking over production themselves, especially considering that Khador already started that.

I don't own NQM #27, so there might be something in there that justifies this a bit better, an IK FTC of sorts… Like it is, it does sound too much like a libertarian pipe dream, as much as I appreciate bringing down the prices to a more reasonable level that finally allows me to have swampies with blunderbusses…

The part your missing is that it wasn't as valuable as it was being priced. I'll break it down even simpler. Note, I disagree pretty strongly with most libertarian economic arguments, so I am smoking no pipes.

Overpriced commodity in the rigid control of a small, extremely heirarchal group.
HQ destroyed, alchemists scattered to the wins.
It takes times to set up shop, join other nations or get supplies going again - at this point and time the major producer has been scattered to the winds and other competitors haven't started up yet. The few that have are able to make large amounts of money due to the demand outpacing the supply radically.
After some time, more alchemists get set up in various nations, independent shops and start getting supply chains moving again, hammering down deals for raw materials and getting to work. Prices start to stabilize.

Last but not least, once large numbers are setting up shops independent of each other, they start to compete more vigorously, dropping the price a great deal, and bringing it closer to the actual market value.

It really isn't super complicated, and is such basic economics that you can't even call it libertarian or anything. Pretty much every branch of economic thought works on these principles.

[PPS_Simon]

I admit I rather liked guns being rare and special. Not happy the new RPG is all multifire weapons everywhere...

Not sure where you're getting this idea. The vast majority of multi-fire weapons in the Iron Kingdoms remain in the use of standing military forces. While it's certainly possible characters could get their hands on a trencher chain gun over the course of play I don't think any of them have access to such things through character creation or the general course of play. Unless you read part of the book that I missed, anyway.

[Sosthenes]

While a rapid progress towards blast powder as a relatively cheap commodity is certainly possible, I don't think it's the likely outcome. I think we'd be closer to oil than soda pop… (Again, the NQM article might actually justify this, but, well…)

Let me start out that I have one big problem with the starting situation: Reading the Crucible Arms article in the IKWG, it makes it sound like the blast powder production was centralized in Llael (thus resulting in ammo shortages after the invasion). This is somewhat silly. Even accepting that the military of a few nations can be strong-armed into allowing such a monopoly, you would want your powder mills to be on your territory, everything else would be military suicide.

So I'm not sure how to read that. Maybe it was just some "secret sauce" component that had to be centrally manufactured (and thus the source of the order control), maybe it really all came from the same location. Depending on that, you either just have to get the recipe for the missing component (by espionage or just by getting your hands on an initiated alchemist), or build whole powder mills on your own.

And yes, you'd need huge powder mills, "setting up shop" isn't about an alchemist and his beloved Erlenmeyer flask. The blast powder usage of the IK guns is quite a bit exaggerated (or the powder is just very, very weak). 8 shots per rifler's pound for a military rifle, so a platoon of 50 people could blow through 60 pounds of blast powder in a minute of battle (I'm assuming realistic rates of fire, not breaking everything down by D&D actions).

But whether we have existing powder mills expanding a bit or new factories being set up, there's two problems with the free market scenario: Alchemists cooperating and fixing price, and military interference. There was a network connecting all the master craftsmen, and while this is now severely damaged by the Khadoran takeover, we don't really have a bunch of people in rags scattered aimlessly. There's the opportunity of talking to each other, and considering that there's a big war going on and one nation is now controlling the original source, sticking to the original price (or even raising it) would seem much more profitable than competing.

And then there's the military, who doesn't want to see the recent debacle repeated. Much more likely to dictacte a stronger influence in the manufacture now. Heck, if the Khadorans can swallow it up totally, why not Cygnar, too? Royal powder mills seem a like a clever strategy.

I see a definite possibility that the military now gets cheaper blast powder. But there's no big reason for this price drop to trickle down to the common populace. The military needs all the powder it can get *and* doesn't want to see civilians shooting up the place. No soup for you.

Wonder what the official way out of this is. Maybe the recipe is now pretty open, so about any alchemist can create it, thus creating some kind of cottage industry of blast powder manufacture. Given the dangers of this, I'd wonder why the military doesn't prevent this. Alchemists should be pretty rare and the components somewhat exotic, so it isn't that hard to track down and root out (as opposed to moonshine).


Let me repeat it: I have no problem ignoring these reservations, as I'm all for Bucky living again, Klingons having bumpy heads and villagers hiring the party to help them against the gun-toting robbers demanding tribute.

[Whimper]

Not sure where you're getting this idea. The vast majority of multi-fire weapons in the Iron Kingdoms remain in the use of standing military forces. While it's certainly possible characters could get their hands on a trencher chain gun over the course of play I don't think any of them have access to such things through character creation or the general course of play. Unless you read part of the book that I missed, anyway.

I think StJason is extrapolating what we have seen from Warmachine and Hordes to the IKRPG. Multifire guns in the 'good old days' were limited to the Sentinel, Caine's pistols, Longgunners guns, and one or two other rare examples. Now they appear on many more models, so it seems like they are practically commonplace in the setting.

[Sosthenes]

Yep, according to this thread, a "repeating pistol" is basically starting equipment now. I'm not the biggest fan of this trend, either. Mostly for flavor reasons, as any six shooters just seem to shout out "wild west" to me and my players (pepperboxes excepted).

And I thought that with a new rule system, you wouldn't even need them. They definitely would server a good purpose in the D20 system, where rate of fire is everything. (Historically, there's no major difference between a longbow and weapons comparable to the IK "military rifles" concerning RoF.)

[Whimper]

And with the prices given, a character could decide, "Do I want to have a helmet (20g) and knife (15g), or a repeating pistol (35g)?"

It's a different decision from, "Do I want to have a Clockwork Arms Pepperbox (325g) or feed a family of five for two months?"

Granted, it seems like they've changed how the money works, with the expensive equipment getting a 90% discount, and the cheap equipment staying cheap...

[Sosthenes]

I've given up hope on fantasy prices long ago (well, there's Hârn), and I've got my own price lists for IK anyway. But we've come a long way from the early mentions of firearms in the WFT, where rifle companies were said to be rare, and now it seems repeating rifle companies aren't even that rare.

A price drop like this is basically a "stealth" fluff change, although it does have little impact on the value of the old IKCG and IKWG, to get us back to this thread's topic. The rules conversion might cause a few other small changes, e.g. regarding magic and its practitioners. I don't expect this to be that hard to justify/retcon, though.

[StJason]

Not sure where you're getting this idea. The vast majority of multi-fire weapons in the Iron Kingdoms remain in the use of standing military forces. While it's certainly possible characters could get their hands on a trencher chain gun over the course of play I don't think any of them have access to such things through character creation or the general course of play. Unless you read part of the book that I missed, anyway.

I take my reading from No Quarter, Number 41, page 31...
"..so I'm going to go with a repeating pistol for 35 gc. This weapon will give my character five shots before he needs to reload.."
Thus it was written, thus shall it be forever. Amen.

Couple of notes here:
1) This is a beginning character. Not a special build, not a exotic tweaking, a very basic, very 'first level' character. Yet he can afford a full set of armor (armor more expensive then gun), sword, gun, 50 rounds of ammunition, and still have leftover for rope and backpack and stuff.
2) This is pretty darn cheap. ANY character can afford a five-shot revolver. It's cheaper then the two armor selections he mentioned. Basically, this means that every character will be using guns as their main weapon. They've gone from an exotic, rare, and military and adventure weapon, to every kid on every corner has one. Ye-haw.

It's sad, it's sick. One of the things that I thought was cool and interesting about IK was single-shot weapons. Every other game had gatling pistols and clockwork ammo clips and rifles that held 138 rounds. The whole 'fire one shot while you charge in with your bayonet' thing was very Napoleonic and super-cool. It fit with the whole Brotherhood of the Wolf vibe going on. Once everyone had cyberarms and ammo capacity, it starts feeling like Shadowrun reskinned.

[PPS_Simon]

I take my reading from No Quarter, Number 41, page 31...
"..so I'm going to go with a repeating pistol for 35 gc. This weapon will give my character five shots before he needs to reload.."
Thus it was written, thus shall it be forever. Amen.

Couple of notes here:
1) This is a beginning character. Not a special build, not a exotic tweaking, a very basic, very 'first level' character. Yet he can afford a full set of armor (armor more expensive then gun), sword, gun, 50 rounds of ammunition, and still have leftover for rope and backpack and stuff.
2) This is pretty darn cheap. ANY character can afford a five-shot revolver. It's cheaper then the two armor selections he mentioned. Basically, this means that every character will be using guns as their main weapon. They've gone from an exotic, rare, and military and adventure weapon, to every kid on every corner has one. Ye-haw.

It's sad, it's sick. One of the things that I thought was cool and interesting about IK was single-shot weapons. Every other game had gatling pistols and clockwork ammo clips and rifles that held 138 rounds. The whole 'fire one shot while you charge in with your bayonet' thing was very Napoleonic and super-cool. It fit with the whole Brotherhood of the Wolf vibe going on. Once everyone had cyberarms and ammo capacity, it starts feeling like Shadowrun reskinned.

I'd assumed you were referring to exotic military hardware with automatic firing capabilities. As for your criticisms, we've been very explicit about the baseline of starting characters being experienced adventurers in the new IKRPG, however, we've included some optional suggestions for characters and campaigns with less options available at creation. As for the guns, I can assure you you are going to see a lot of characters choosing weapons other than guns as their first choice. We do, however, think it is very Iron Kingdoms for many characters to be packing a back up piece. Firearms are a big part of the IKRPG and I know people here from the very beginning like Jason Soles and Matt Wilson were insistent that they should be available to most characters, and that it is closer to their ultimate vision of the setting than some of the compromises inspired by the d20 rules set and all the baggage that came along with that. Sorry it's not your thing, but I think you'll have a pretty easy time altering the use of guns to fit your own campaign.

[Sosthenes]

Firearms are a big part of the IKRPG and I know people here from the very beginning like Jason Soles and Matt Wilson were insistent that they should be available to most characters, and that it is closer to their ultimate vision of the setting than some of the compromises inspired by the d20 rules set and all the baggage that came along with that.

I totally agree with that sentiment, and it's been pretty obvious despite the magical item-like pricing in the D20 publications that this was supposed to be the case. Even in the WFT, firearms have been pretty ubiquitous, with basically every watch member or inquisitor carrying one, even if it kinda "ruined" their NPC wealth/equipment and feat selection. Great that that isn't the case anymore.

But for me, and apparently for others in this thread, there's a difference between everyone who could afford a sword also being able to afford a pistol, and everyone (or *anyone*, in my case) having revolvers. Even if it wouldn't change the mechanics, it surely changes the visuals.

[PPS_Simon]

I totally agree with that sentiment, and it's been pretty obvious despite the magical item-like pricing in the D20 publications that this was supposed to be the case. Even in the WFT, firearms have been pretty ubiquitous, with basically every watch member or inquisitor carrying one, even if it kinda "ruined" their NPC wealth/equipment and feat selection. Great that that isn't the case anymore.

But for me, and apparently for others in this thread, there's a difference between everyone who could afford a sword also being able to afford a pistol, and everyone (or *anyone*, in my case) having revolvers. Even if it wouldn't change the mechanics, it surely changes the visuals.

An important note is that adventurers can afford those weapons, not everyone can.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

Yes one of the conceits with the IKRPG is that the players are taking the role of exceptional individuals from the start. GMs can of course adjust this, but it is intended to be a heroic flavored game from the outset, with each of the players being a notable and impressive individual who has some built-in history. I actually expect a lot of people who are already familiar with the setting and RPGs may opt to even provide a small bit of starting XP to open up greater customization possibilities. But the degree to which a GM does this is of course up to them. GM fiat is a big part of our design philosophy and if you'd sooner your players were street beggars starting with nothing but a rusty fork and some soiled rags, that's your prerogative. You can rather easily reduce starting money for careers or nix certain equipment options, etc.

[Sosthenes]

An important note is that adventurers can afford those weapons, not everyone can.

That changes very little in my book. Whether "only" the characters and their adversaries are likely to be equipped to such a degree or everyone slightly belligerent in the world is – the fact remains that in the game, those weapons will be well-represented. Just like swords.

[FrankJaeger]

So. I might be wrong, but I noticed that the quote in No Quarter, Number 41, page 31 says:

(...) so I'm going to go with a repeating pistol for 35 gc. (...)

If StJason quoted it correctly (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) nowhere it says that the character have a revolver. Repeating Pistol could be a generic term for anything from a Radliffe Firestorm (revolver) to a Pepperbox (not-revolver).

[PG_cogrie]

I'm just stoked that it is possible to be a gun mage at the start and actually be able to afford and gun and shots. And I can safely say my players are equally stoked. Most of us started playing Warmachine because we loved the aesthetic and fantasy world. We all wait with great anticipation for the release of the new game.

[The Happy Anarchist]

While a rapid progress towards blast powder as a relatively cheap commodity is certainly possible, I don't think it's the likely outcome. I think we'd be closer to oil than soda pop… (Again, the NQM article might actually justify this, but, well…)

Let me start out that I have one big problem with the starting situation: Reading the Crucible Arms article in the IKWG, it makes it sound like the blast powder production was centralized in Llael (thus resulting in ammo shortages after the invasion). This is somewhat silly. Even accepting that the military of a few nations can be strong-armed into allowing such a monopoly, you would want your powder mills to be on your territory, everything else would be military suicide.

So I'm not sure how to read that. Maybe it was just some "secret sauce" component that had to be centrally manufactured (and thus the source of the order control), maybe it really all came from the same location. Depending on that, you either just have to get the recipe for the missing component (by espionage or just by getting your hands on an initiated alchemist), or build whole powder mills on your own.

And yes, you'd need huge powder mills, "setting up shop" isn't about an alchemist and his beloved Erlenmeyer flask. The blast powder usage of the IK guns is quite a bit exaggerated (or the powder is just very, very weak). 8 shots per rifler's pound for a military rifle, so a platoon of 50 people could blow through 60 pounds of blast powder in a minute of battle (I'm assuming realistic rates of fire, not breaking everything down by D&D actions).

But whether we have existing powder mills expanding a bit or new factories being set up, there's two problems with the free market scenario: Alchemists cooperating and fixing price, and military interference. There was a network connecting all the master craftsmen, and while this is now severely damaged by the Khadoran takeover, we don't really have a bunch of people in rags scattered aimlessly. There's the opportunity of talking to each other, and considering that there's a big war going on and one nation is now controlling the original source, sticking to the original price (or even raising it) would seem much more profitable than competing.

And then there's the military, who doesn't want to see the recent debacle repeated. Much more likely to dictacte a stronger influence in the manufacture now. Heck, if the Khadorans can swallow it up totally, why not Cygnar, too? Royal powder mills seem a like a clever strategy.

I see a definite possibility that the military now gets cheaper blast powder. But there's no big reason for this price drop to trickle down to the common populace. The military needs all the powder it can get *and* doesn't want to see civilians shooting up the place. No soup for you.

Wonder what the official way out of this is. Maybe the recipe is now pretty open, so about any alchemist can create it, thus creating some kind of cottage industry of blast powder manufacture. Given the dangers of this, I'd wonder why the military doesn't prevent this. Alchemists should be pretty rare and the components somewhat exotic, so it isn't that hard to track down and root out (as opposed to moonshine).


Let me repeat it: I have no problem ignoring these reservations, as I'm all for Bucky living again, Klingons having bumpy heads and villagers hiring the party to help them against the gun-toting robbers demanding tribute.

What's rapid? I don't see "over a couple of years" being rapid.

Also, you are assuming that they were a monolithic entity - and that they are going to move around in large groups. Maybe that one alchemist has decided he wants to go it on his own, and is sick of being at the beck and call of superiors. Then he figures out that he can undercut the locals by a bit and can easily make the difference in product moved. Then several other people realize the same thing, and the price moves down.

Unless there is outside forces constraining it, the prices moving down is not unusual or unwarranted.

As for the location of powder reserves, I believe that each nation had private contracts with the Golden Crucible, and they sent actual members to go make powder for them. As to why they weren't tortured or blackmailed for the secrets, I would imagine it is a combination of the high willpower required to be a quality alchemist and be entrusted with the secret, combined with a general fear of what happens when it becomes known you messed with them and they immediately cut off your access and give special discounts to your enemies.

[The Happy Anarchist]

*Double Post* whoops.

I'll just use this space anyways. While I agree that repeating pistols at character gen is a definite change in character creation, lets not go crazy here. We aren't getting to shadowrun, and it still is a similar setting.

I am surprised that repeating pistols are that cheap, but I am glad to see guns in general being more affordable, even if not quite cheap. Costing as much as armor is pretty crazy.

What I am not as pleased to see is 15 gp "affordable" trench knives. I don't know what it is about fantasy settings that make knives so gorram expensive, but I'd like to see it end. I'm hoping that is some sort of super incredibly fancy knives, and actual knives cost the handful of copper, or maybe a few silver they should.

[Sosthenes]

What's rapid? I don't see "over a couple of years" being rapid.

When is the NQM article set? Shortages where in the WG, i.e. 606 AR.
And yes, if we're going from shortages due to centralized production and full functional facilities outside, for a complicated alchemical substance *during wartime*, a few years would be rapid. Looking at the IK tech, progress isn't exactly on a Silicon Valley level.

Also, you are assuming that they were a monolithic entity - and that they are going to move around in large groups.

An organization that controlled a monopoly for quite some time and is doing production on an industrial scale? While that might not be monolithic, for the purposes of being able to create a cabal/cartel it certainly works for me.
A sole dissident trying to break this stranglehold? Well, the other guys have blast powder and firearms. No more Mr. Nice Military-Industrial Complex.

Look, I'm not saying that prices dropping is entirely impossible, but given the circumstances, I don't think that the fact that this would lessen the bullet tax on players and allow fore a more gun-heavy IK is a total coincidence. And I'm not even a conspiracy theory guy.

[HerrDeux]

Look, I'm not saying that prices dropping is entirely impossible, but given the circumstances, I don't think that the fact that this would lessen the bullet tax on players and allow fore a more gun-heavy IK is a total coincidence. And I'm not even a conspiracy theory guy.

Oh? So, you're one of those peculiar coincidence theorists?

[Sosthenes]

Not intentionally.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

Some folks seem to keep getting the commercial sales of blasting powder mixed up with the military production. The OGC never had a monopoly over military production, only commercial sales; each kingdom does indeed have its own internal military production. Indeed, while the OGC gladly took contracts to make ammunition for the military on an as-needs basis, that wasn't a particularly large revenue source. Frankly, they charged too much and the kingdoms (particularly Khador & Cygnar) had access to their own sources of raw materials and alchemists. The Fraternal Order had a stronger monopoly on cortex production than the OGC ever did on powder production, and as we know that fell apart too, several centuries ago thanks to the Greylords Covenant and later other groups that can make cortexes.

The OGC commercial monopoly shattered at the same time as their HQ was absorbed by Khador, prompting the outlying OGC branches to fall into disorder and begin to compete with one another. They also lost their tight control over some of the formulas and methods, as well as the ability to enforce their monopoly through commercial extortion and other pressures. In the wake of this loss of centralized control, a large number of alchemists who might once have been wary to produce and sell blasting powder without a seal of approval from the OGC felt at liberty to venture into this market. Seeing as there were no retaliations against them (as might have been the case when the OGC was in a stronger position), they prospered and may have even ramped up production. The various local OGC branches felt the need to react to this somehow, and lacking the clout to stop these other alchemists it was easier to relax their standards and ask for a small reduced fee to be granted OGC membership. A scramble by the OGC to maintain the appearance of still controlling the market even when that was no longer the case. Prices were now more or less out of their hands, combined with increased production and competition. The raw resources to make blasting powder have never been extremely scarce, although of course they are valued. Certain alchemical advances have in fact worked to the advantage of the consumer as alchemists have been able to produce more with less, spurred by innovations coming about as the need for powder has increased on both the civilian and military side of production.

What was once a tightly regulated product became far less so, and the price fixing racket was left in shambles. The market was quickly flooded by a higher volume of lower grade (but functional) blasting powder. This forced even accredited alchemists to lower prices as well, or to seek to market their higher grade powder to those with more discriminating requirements, thereby justifying a higher price than could be found among the competition. There is certainly a market for higher grade powder, and some applications which demand it, but most consumers just want to be able to fire their guns for cheaper, and will go where the prices are lower.

This was not necessarily the case in 605 AR, in the period covered by the WG. Time marches on, and blasting powder is both a highly valued commodity but also one that is being produced in greater quantity than ever before. It is generally a good time to be an alchemist in the IK, and many people have taken up the avocation. Likely in a post-war lull this will cause an alchemist glut that will then be seeing a large number of aspiring alchemists looking for work that does not exist, but such is life. They can perhaps try to innovate other needed products, and given alchemy is vital to a broad number of industries, it's probably not too much of a problem. Those who specialize only in ammunition production will have to branch out. For now, if you're in a city like Corvis, now on the front line of the war effort, every additional alchemist making blasting powder finds a ready market for his wares, either selling ammunition directly to the military (to supplement the army's own production), or to mercenaries or other private citizens looking to keep their guns loaded and their ammunition stores stocked at an uncertain time.

I will say the WG did indeed overstate any "shortage" of powder, largely in an attempt to emphasize the importance of seizing the OGC HQ by Khador. This was certainly significant and a big deal, and Khador got much out of this, but in some respects this was presented too narrowly in the old WG, which is why we spent a number of subsequent articles in NQM in later years to add information and give a better perspective on the evolving situation.

[The Happy Anarchist]

When is the NQM article set? Shortages where in the WG, i.e. 606 AR.
And yes, if we're going from shortages due to centralized production and full functional facilities outside, for a complicated alchemical substance *during wartime*, a few years would be rapid. Looking at the IK tech, progress isn't exactly on a Silicon Valley level.

Fall of Llael 605 - current time 608 - couple of years, as I said.

Also, it wasn't the production that was centralized, it was the control. See also, everything Doug posted.

@Doug, thanks for that. It does clear up a bit how it worked before the fall of Llael and that helps grant some extra perspective.

[Sosthenes]

Yep, that basically fits my "cottage industry" theory above. And if the military isn't keeping up with production *and* never was subject to the monopoly in the first place, that explains their lack of intervention.

I'm still saying the OGC went out too easy. The way I pictured it, we're talking about war profiteers, basically one step up from mobsters, if at all. So it's basically the prohibition/drug war/OPEC all over again. Quite likely to form alliances to keep their power base, and if that breaks up, the resulting kerfuffles aren't ideal product-based competion, but about keeping the others down, thus draining their resources (and your own, but hopefully not in equal measures). Which won't help prices too much.

But apparently it was more a big corporation vs. young upstart situation. Ma Bell when it got forcefully restructured. Or IBM/DEC losing to younger and more agile players like Apple and Microsoft. In other words: more about tech savvy than brute force. (Or a mixture of both. If I remember my Freakonomics, gang wars became less violent once the price of crack dropped, as it wasn't worth dying about the lessened revenue anymore.)

As a certified rat-bastard DM, I would've opted for the more violent solution, cocka-roaches and all. I blame Leto for the IK going soft, this wouldn't have happened under Vinter
*andofcoursenotunderthedivineguidanceoftorukourete rnallordandmaster*

Speaking of tech-savvy and alchemical advances, any chance that the different powder recipes and methods of the Skorne had anything to do with that?