A curious question about The RPG

[John of Arc]

This is one of the reasons I love PP- the big guys (especially you two, Simon and Doug) are always chiming in and interacting with the community. You guys rock!

[Whimper]

I'll echo that, Joan of Arc. I really feel that the developers' interaction with the community is one of the best aspects of Privateer Press as a company.

[Sosthenes]

Ayup. Although we still don't have a Alexia pinup.

Kickstarter, anyone?

[Munindk]

Now there's a tattoo waiting to happen

[The Happy Anarchist]

Speaking of tech-savvy and alchemical advances, any chance that the different powder recipes and methods of the Skorne had anything to do with that?

Highly doubt it. There hasn't been much of an exchange of info going on.

[Sosthenes]

Now there's a tattoo waiting to happen

Waiting? Please, I bet there's at least one hairy calf out there on which badly-drawn versions of Elric and Alexia fight each other.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

Speaking of tech-savvy and alchemical advances, any chance that the different powder recipes and methods of the Skorne had anything to do with that?

Do the Skorne even use blasting powder? I was under the impression their guns were all just based on pressurized gas. I think if anything, applying Skorne technology to IK guns would lead to something like the Girandoni Air Rifle - presumably with many of the same problems, so it would probably not see widespread military acceptance. Still, I bet lots of sneaky rifleman-types would love to have a weapon that doesn't have the smoke or report of a traditional rifle.

[Psychomancer]

Their needle guns use the compressed gas- come to think of it, I'm not sure if it's compressed or if it just ignites, and I'm too lazy to look it up. Skorne do have cannon, and they don't use the same powder as the Immorese. Theirs is closer to black powder, in that it's a single powder instead of a binary agent, and is ignited by matches.

[StJason]

Their needle guns use the compressed gas- come to think of it, I'm not sure if it's compressed or if it just ignites, and I'm too lazy to look it up. Skorne do have cannon, and they don't use the same powder as the Immorese. Theirs is closer to black powder, in that it's a single powder instead of a binary agent, and is ignited by matches.

I have a vague recollection it's a spore from a mushroom or puffball. It is ignited with a spark, and their weapons shoot out several needles at the same time.
I had the impression that their cannons worked more or less the same way, with a empty chamber at the back that is filled with spores that is ignited by a fuse.

[odinsgrandson]

It seems to me like firearms were always a problem in IK. Guns required an extra feat to use at all, and the optimal ranged character builds did not use guns at all. Add the high price of ammunition (which you couldn't just recover like you could other ranged ammo) and you have a pretty gimped build. We ended up with a lot of characters choosing to gimp themselves in order to be flavorful. And Gunmages.

In my last campaign, we had a bard who owned a pistol, but couldn't afford any ammo at all. So he didn't keep it loaded.

[StJason]

To be honest, that kinda describes early guns exactly, Odinsgrandson...

If you read things like the Lewis & Clark journals, you'll see they preferred their air rifles over the gunpowder ones, because the powder wouldn't take, the flint wouldn't spark right, the gun would jam. It was useful for making a loud sound and scaring the heck out of Indians and wildlife, but the air rifle was quiet, efficient, and you could hand it off to a minion to pump full every day.

So yeah. Having revolvers everywhere is much more like a Western then that awesome Revolutionary/Napoleonic vibe they had.

[Sosthenes]

Well, we always were a bit ahead of Napoleonic weaponry and tactics. Guns are about 1850-ish, skirmishers seem more common than the "stand there and be shot at" British battalions, Warjacks seem to cut heavily into both the artillery and cavalry "budget".

The "problem" is that once you add too much repeating weaponry into this, you're basically skipping even further ahead: Guys with flamethrowers, heavily armored mobile units, machine guns - whoops, first world war. Just hope that PP isn't planning on introducing an "Airmachines" miniature game line, too

[susan]

Just hope that PP isn't planning on introducing an "Airmachines" miniature game line, too

I've always thought that Airpower, while it would surely be an asset and is most definitely within the technological capabilities of the Iron Kingdoms by this point, would be far too fragile and unreliable to use and would be a costly and ineffective division of resources. The skills, weaponry, and mystical talents of the forces on the ground could and would render large-scale use of aircraft all but obsolete. For example:

Orboros Druid: *runs up to Kreuger's bedroll, panting* "Stormlord! Khador is attacking with 1,000 Flying Desolator Bombers!"
Kreuger: *yawns, rolls over, claps hands, cue wind, rain, thunder* "No, they're not." *rolls back over*
Orboros Druid: *looks up* "...Yep, they're not. ...Thank you." *backs away slowly*

[PsychoLaughs]

The "problem" is that once you add too much repeating weaponry into this, you're basically skipping even further ahead: Guys with flamethrowers, heavily armored mobile units, machine guns - whoops, first world war. Just hope that PP isn't planning on introducing an "Airmachines" miniature game line, too

not totally correct. machine guns have been used in much earlier conflicts than WWI, it's just they are really remembered because of WWI.
the gatling gun was invented in 1861, and the really famous maxim design was invented in 1885 and put into service as early as 1889. revolvers are 1836 and lever action style weapons are 1848.
yes, some weapons are much later, but single shot firearms are really early... the current IK would be very similar to mid 1800s where the transition from traditional muzzle loading to cartridges and multifire started to take place.

[Munindk]

Or maybe its a little tricky to compare the technological development of a fantasy setting to the technological development of our world? Since the setting borrows things and ideas from a lot of different real world cultures and time periods, its shouldnt come as a surprise that weapon technologies ages apart in our world are used simultaneously in the IK. Even in our world a technology isnt replaced globally overnight, especially if its as expensive to replace as say... the standard armament of the common soldiers in a nation currently at war?

Regardless of any mention of flying machines or u-boats in the new RPG, the Elders balloon trip is the only recorded flight in my IK campaign and Cryx will continue to be the only nation to use troops under water.

[Sosthenes]

not totally correct. machine guns have been used in much earlier conflicts than WWI, it's just they are really remembered because of WWI.

My point was that we've already got the flamethrowers, trenchers and, well, "tanks" in place, it's not just about adding repeating artillery to a 1800-ish deal.

But yeah, one shouldn't look too far for 1:1 counterparts, never mind that the RPG situation is a bit different from actual battle field action (well, unless you've got a PC 'jack). And here cliches/genres trump tech level for me. The Kingdoms are perfectly able to produce smallswords and rapiers, yet we generally see more heavier weapons in action - it's "Iron", not "Lace". And I see pistols and rifles the same. Yes, Colt-style revolvers are definitely within reach, but I see IK "gunslingers" more like upper class duelists or brace-of-pistols pirates. I believe I'm not the only one who would say that we've basically reached the upper level of firearms technology that feels ok to me already. If I'd want something more advanced, I'd ditch the tricorn hats and plate shoulders and go straight-forward to more Victorian shores (Space 1889, Castle Falkenstein, Ultima: Martian Dreams etc.).

But hey, it's a free publishing industry. Not like it would be hard to remove things that don't fit my particular world view from future RPG material, I'm just happy that we'll get further support. I don't want to sound too "Occupy Immoren"-ish

[PG_fildrigar]

I'm still saying the OGC went out too easy. The way I pictured it, we're talking about war profiteers, basically one step up from mobsters, if at all. So it's basically the prohibition/drug war/OPEC all over again. Quite likely to form alliances to keep their power base, and if that breaks up, the resulting kerfuffles aren't ideal product-based competion, but about keeping the others down, thus draining their resources (and your own, but hopefully not in equal measures). Which won't help prices too much.

That sounds like a great idea for a campaign...

[PG_fildrigar]

...to fit your own campaign.

...that's your prerogative.

Thank you! That's the wonderful thing about Role Playing Games. You can make them your own. Want to actually use the money systems from the old IKRPG? Cool, have at. Want to make guns rarer? Excellent, go forth and have fun.

[Sosthenes]

That sounds like a great idea for a campaign...

"In Cygnar, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the powder. Then when you get the powder, then you get the military contracts."

[StJason]

Thank you! That's the wonderful thing about Role Playing Games. You can make them your own. Want to actually use the money systems from the old IKRPG? Cool, have at. Want to make guns rarer? Excellent, go forth and have fun.

Want to add 40,000 Stormtroopers lead by the Dark Lord of the Sith? Sure! It's your game! While we are at it, let's add some Snowspeeders and X-Wing Fighters. Nobody is going to pound on your door and make you stop! And while we are at it, let's get rid of all forms of magic, and replace it with some quasi-martial art mysticism called "The Force"! It's your game! And why limit it to one planet? Have fun! Just because I've now made Star Wars out of Iron Kingdoms doesn't mean that I can't call it Iron Kingdoms. I can even make a six-movie trilogy about it. The Iron Kingdoms Trilogy. The main character will be Luke Skywalker, who will be an apprentice to the Fraternal Order of the Force master, who will fight against the repressive Khadoran Empire...

[PPS_Simon]

Want to add 40,000 Stormtroopers lead by the Dark Lord of the Sith? Sure! It's your game! While we are at it, let's add some Snowspeeders and X-Wing Fighters. Nobody is going to pound on your door and make you stop! And while we are at it, let's get rid of all forms of magic, and replace it with some quasi-martial art mysticism called "The Force"! It's your game! And why limit it to one planet? Have fun! Just because I've now made Star Wars out of Iron Kingdoms doesn't mean that I can't call it Iron Kingdoms. I can even make a six-movie trilogy about it. The Iron Kingdoms Trilogy. The main character will be Luke Skywalker, who will be an apprentice to the Fraternal Order of the Force master, who will fight against the repressive Khadoran Empire...

Damn, you're really not going to like our mechanika rules for crafting an Executor class Star Destroyer...



edit: Actually, that could be kind of sweet...

tumblr_m39udeDBao1ruit47o1_1280.jpg

[WarpedWolf]

Steampunk Darth Vader and Boba Fett. Thread won.

[Sosthenes]

Damn, you're really not going to like our mechanika rules for crafting an Executor class Star Destroyer...

Hold me, Simon, like you did by that lake in Llael!

As long as the Executor is properly sized, unlike in every other SW RPG since WEG (Feel my nerd rage!). Hmm, my party is heading for Ternon Crag. Maybe it's time to add some more scum and villainy to that. Obese trollkin overlord, young mechanik/warcaster in the Marshes with his two pet servitors. Time to steal from something other than Elric for the WFT

[The Happy Anarchist]

Want to add 40,000 Stormtroopers lead by the Dark Lord of the Sith? Sure! It's your game! While we are at it, let's add some Snowspeeders and X-Wing Fighters. Nobody is going to pound on your door and make you stop! And while we are at it, let's get rid of all forms of magic, and replace it with some quasi-martial art mysticism called "The Force"! It's your game! And why limit it to one planet? Have fun! Just because I've now made Star Wars out of Iron Kingdoms doesn't mean that I can't call it Iron Kingdoms. I can even make a six-movie trilogy about it. The Iron Kingdoms Trilogy. The main character will be Luke Skywalker, who will be an apprentice to the Fraternal Order of the Force master, who will fight against the repressive Khadoran Empire...

Yep. Because that is totally the same thing. It's not like going back to a time that actually existed in the game, and was fully represented and fits in with the setting, but is just a few years before the technology had a fair leap in development. That would be crazy to expect someone to be able to do that if they preferred a slightly more archaic setting. That is unbearable for anyone to be able to do. Completely unreasonable.

Also, all of those players that want to play with the new technology that has been developed and refined over the last several years should clearly have to make stuff up to fit it themselves. Creating things wholesale is much easier than just going back a couple of steps.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

So yeah. Having revolvers everywhere is much more like a Western then that awesome Revolutionary/Napoleonic vibe they had.

Even in WARMACHINE and HORDES, where we have heavily armed factions involved in full war, we do not see revolvers in the hands of everyone. I'm not sure why anyone would expect this. Because a thing exists and is available for adventurers does not mean everyone has it. In the d20 RPG the Liber Mechanika introduced Ironheads walking around in full steam powered armor suits nearly equivalent to what Darius uses. This did not suddenly give rise to cities filled with city watch in steam powered armor. An RPG will provide a variety of options for players and GMs to utilize in creating fun games within the setting. In the current state of our setting, firearms are all the rage, but that is sometimes in the form of single-shot heavy pistols, sometimes peculiar shield-cannons, the quad-iron, or other such weapons, as well as carbines with revolvers akin to the ones we see on trencher commandos or the repeating long rifles of a long gunner. Every weapon has its place and its drawbacks. Trying to walk into a tavern in Five Fingers with your six-foot long repeating rifle is probably going to be a problem. And your average assassin will still likely prefer the silent effectiveness of a crossbow or a sharp knife.

[Sosthenes]

I'm not sure why anyone would expect this.

Because it's a superior to almost anything else in its category? Comparing a colt-like revolver to a bulky exoskeleton isn't really fair. If revolvers are a) available enough and b) cheap enough, I'd expect everyone who right now could afford a normal pistil (military or small) to carry a repeating weapon. Heck, probably even more, considering that the price drop seems considerable. That means almost every member of the Corvis watch and a considerable number of bandits, gangsters etc. In a city-centric campaign, it would be rather prominent.

Sure, I might need some special purpose weapon, but you'd still have one as an additional sidearm, right next to your dagger.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

I'm not sure where we ever described that they were that cheap and available, however. That really isn't the case. The truth of the matter is, not even every long gunner in the Cygnaran Army actually has a repeating long rifle.

[Sosthenes]

We're all just going by the recent character creation example, where a "repeating pistol" in the same price category as a fancy knife.

[FrankJaeger]

We're all just going by the recent character creation example, where a "repeating pistol" in the same price category as a fancy knife.

I'll just repeat my last post here, since people ignored it completely:

So. I might be wrong, but I noticed that the quote in No Quarter, Number 41, page 31 says:

"(...) so I'm going to go with a repeating pistol for 35 gc. (...)"

If StJason quoted it correctly (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) nowhere it says that the character have a revolver. Repeating Pistol could be a generic term for anything from a Radliffe Firestorm (revolver) to a Pepperbox (not-revolver).

[StJason]

Exactly. Unless the example given in NQ had a maximized gold amount, he was able to buy armor, a trench knife, a five-shot repeating pistol, plenty of ammo, and still have enough left over to buy the rope and ten foot poles that are standard adventurer fare.

Honestly? If it's that cheap, I can't see a character not getting one. Five shots before reload also makes for a more compelling reason.

If this is not true, then I will get down on my knees and kiss your Nikes, Mr. Seacat. I want the IK where even the Long Gunners don't have repeating rifles. I already have Deadlands.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yes, you already have Deadlands. Which is really nothing like the IK whatsoever, regardless of how many lightning gizmos, chain guns or repeating rifles are in it.

Frankly, you want an IK that never existed, really. Maybe others would like it too - make that setting and give it a try. You seem to have a strong idea of what you want in a setting.

[WarpedWolf]

Well, we've seen no information on how long it takes to reload, how reliable the weapon is, or the availability of ammunition. All of which can transform a firearm into nothing more than a very nice club. And also remember that as GM, you have the right to restrict the availability of guns and ammo in your campaign. However, that's an option that must be exercised with care, and likely discussed with your players before character creation. If everyone is packing and you tell them there's no ammo to be had, it could get ugly.

Oh, and you don't need a repeating rife to shoot quickly. A brown bess can be fired three times in under a minute.

[Sosthenes]

Oh, and you don't need a repeating rife to shoot quickly. A brown bess can be fired three times in under a minute.

"Do you know what makes a good soldier Mister Sharpe?"

Regarding rate of fire as a rules issue, the problem with the D20 version is about the ability to use your iterative attacks. A new system wouldn't need to have that particular flaw, and in reality, a breech-loaded rifle doesn't fare too bad against a good, battle-ready longbow (~ 12 vs 20 shots per minute).

But for me that's not even the issue (I got rid of D20 already), it's purely about style. Which is why I'm mostly complaining about "revolvers", never mind that we don't even have a clear definition what's meant with the cited "repeating pistol". For me, pepperboxes would actually work, especially if there's a tradeoff compared to your normal, single-shot military pistol (i.e. less damage). Minor pet peeve, easy enough to fix IMC, of course. Probably not worth all the discussion here, but hey, that's true for most issues on the internet…

(I'm kinda-sorta okay with long gunners and trenchers and their equipment, as they're not that relevant for the RPG bit.)

[StJason]

Yes, you already have Deadlands. Which is really nothing like the IK whatsoever, regardless of how many lightning gizmos, chain guns or repeating rifles are in it.

Frankly, you want an IK that never existed, really. Maybe others would like it too - make that setting and give it a try. You seem to have a strong idea of what you want in a setting.

...which gets us back to my whole Star Wars ad absurdo. Yes. I can do anything I want in a setting, but after a while, it stops being that setting. It is the trappings that make a setting. Riding off into the sunset after killing off the terrible monster is universal. Doing it with research, cobbled-together clockworks, and a lightning glave, that's pretty IK.
(as an aside, Deadlands and IK are startlingly similar, and becoming more so. Trains, steam-powered autonomotons, gatling guns, magic-wielding pistoleers, walking dead... now both share Peacemakers.)

Well, we've seen no information on how long it takes to reload, how reliable the weapon is, or the availability of ammunition.

5 gc for 50 shots according to the article. That is a third the price of the sword he chose. It's pretty available if a beginning character can pick up a big bag of it.

[FrankJaeger]

About the equipment prices, I noticed something... In NQ, if the information we got in the forum is correct, the prices are the following:

Step 5: Choose gear. Each Career gives specific items (ie magelock pistol/rifle) and/or gold. In the example 200 gold was available (100 for each career I think). The Dwarf was able to purchase Partial Plate for 75g, a trench knife for 15g, a repeating pistol for 35g, 50 ammo for 5g, a shield for 25g, a helmet for 20g.
EDIT: Full Plate was listed as 125g.

Full Plate costs 125 gp. In IKD20, Full Plate was 1500 gp (Half-plate was 600 gp). The "Repeating Pistol", whatever it is, is listed as 35 gp, while the Clockwer Arms Pepperbox costs 325 gp in the old IKPG... Similar, no? ;-)

Now, that Trench Knife do seem ridiculously expensive, but the pistol and the armor continues at equivalent prices compared to the D&D version of the setting. If you gave the PCs 2000 gp as starting money in the old edition of IK, the equipment they are going to buy will be extremely similar to what this dwarf in the example have. I don't see, given this evidences, HOW "repeating weapons are everywhere now". The only thing I see is that PCs have more money or equipment are universally cheaper in this edition.

Except for trench knifes. Damn! THATS expensive!

[The Happy Anarchist]

...which gets us back to my whole Star Wars ad absurdo. Yes. I can do anything I want in a setting, but after a while, it stops being that setting. It is the trappings that make a setting. Riding off into the sunset after killing off the terrible monster is universal. Doing it with research, cobbled-together clockworks, and a lightning glave, that's pretty IK.
(as an aside, Deadlands and IK are startlingly similar, and becoming more so. Trains, steam-powered autonomotons, gatling guns, magic-wielding pistoleers, walking dead... now both share Peacemakers.)

Yes, but backing up 5-10 years is not going to suddenly turn the setting into Star Wars. That is where the fallacy lies - you can't say-"making guns more rare and expensive is just like adding a Death Star to the game!" It is a terrible argument that is meant for nothing more than causing flame wars - it is basically an insult.

There is also a lot different between the IK and Deadlands. If you would like, we can list all the differences and similarities and see who comes up with more. I could easily tell at a glance whether a bit of fiction or art was part of the Iron Kingdoms or Deadlands - there are entirely different themes, settings, look of the lightning guns/mechanika, revolvers, even clothing. I wouldn't be able to play an IK game and get my Deadlands itch scratched or vice versa. They are too different, even if they do have some similarities.

About the equipment prices, I noticed something... In NQ, if the information we got in the forum is correct, the prices are the following:
Full Plate costs 125 gp. In IKD20, Full Plate was 1500 gp (Half-plate was 600 gp). The "Repeating Pistol", whatever it is, is listed as 35 gp, while the Clockwer Arms Pepperbox costs 325 gp in the old IKPG... Similar, no? ;-)

Now, that Trench Knife do seem ridiculously expensive, but the pistol and the armor continues at equivalent prices compared to the D&D version of the setting. If you gave the PCs 2000 gp as starting money in the old edition of IK, the equipment they are going to buy will be extremely similar to what this dwarf in the example have. I don't see, given this evidences, HOW "repeating weapons are everywhere now". The only thing I see is that PCs have more money or equipment are universally cheaper in this edition.

Except for trench knifes. Damn! THATS expensive!

I'm not sure why it is, but knives are always almost ridiculously expensive in fantasy RPGs - same thing with oak shields, staves, bows, axes and any number of things that were or could be incredibly cheap to make, were commonly had by everyone and thus relatively low in cost.

I think it is a result of attempting to balance equipment by stats and cost rather than basing the cost on what makes sense.

Honestly, I think that is more what is going on here. Think of it as character creation points, rather than gold - I'd wager they balanced the equipment based on its cost in gold rather than basing the cost in gold on how common/uncommon an item is.

[HerrDeux]

...and, none of the pre-released RPG info is set in stone. So, we may very well see a cost adjustment for the trench knife. Then, we can all humbly pat ourselves on the back for improving the game with our discordant cacophony of rusted, squeaky wheels.

[Lord of ???]

I would highly doubt seeing a reduction in the cost of a trench knife.

It's a fairly specialised bit of kit designed for fighting.


I'm pretty sure your average steak knife would be pretty cheap. It's a scale of requirement, not everyone requires a fighting blade, hence they aren't made by the million and they cost a lot. Most people want a fork, these are a dime a dozen.

[Munindk]

We dont have the stats for neither the trench knife nor the repeating pistol, one could be very overpowered and the other a piece of scrap, all we have to go by is uncertain pre-release info.. maybe we the sky isnt falling?

[Sosthenes]

It's a fairly specialised bit of kit designed for fighting.

What's a "trench knife" in the IK, something mechanikal and/or Freudianly oversized? Because the real world equivalent is basically a dagger. (And historically a cheap one, because it was often made in the actual trenches, out of bayonets or scrap metal - or actually done by cutlery companies)

But never mind that, I don't have any problem with bladed weapons being expensive. It's just generally the relation to each other, and in this case specifically to firearms that's a bit of a bother. (And, well, in most fantasy settings it doesn't really line up with livestock or labor. What makes it worse is that often there's a very elaborate cost structure for magical -- i.e. priceless -- items.)


We shouldn't get too hung up about the prices themselves. Availability and usefulness are more important, and we'll have to wait for the final version. Maybe the "repeating pistol" in this case was close to the Clockwerk Arms Pepperbox, and thus actually an unorthodox choice for the character, who is willing to accept the trade offs. And it still might be pretty rare (no military production runs, single manufacturer, maybe a few knock-offs), but that's disregarded for the sake of the background story (PCs had a few years to get their stuff). In which case, it would still not be very likely that half of the members of the Corvis' Griffon gang would have that kind of weaponry.

I don't have a problem with powder/firearm price reduction in general. For my personal view of IK style, a bunch of banjo-strumming swampies armed with muskets would be "good", whereas Malek Redgrave and his entourage all armed with revolvers would be "bad".