How does eCaine's feat work?

[Lightninja]

I read the book, and even some things here on the forums, but I still don't understand how eCaine's feat works. Can someone give me a good example of how he uses his feat to assassinate a caster?

[WindlordRyu]

Shoot a POW12 at their caster.
Shoot a POW13 at their caster.
Shoot a POW14 at their caster.
Shoot a POW15 at their caster.
...
Shoot a POW21 at their caster.

With Squire and Reinholdt you'll have 3 shots and 7 focus for a total of 10 shots. Stuff like Mark Target from Rangers or Kiss of Lyliss from Aianna helps. You can also charge one of you own models in the back for 3 extra inches of threat range at the expense of one shot.

[Da-Rock]

Charge a target (any Target), move 10", check for success or failure of charge, cast Gate Crasher, Place 8", check melee range, if success melee range, new charge target has been acquired.................fire fire fire fire!!!!!!

Each successful hit after the first adds +1 damage to your shot. With 10 shots thats a lot of damage and you can boost if need be, but most often best not to as each shot increases damage etc etc

[tankrandall]

POW 21 on average dice is 28 minus say 20 ARM is 8. Since each attack is 1 POW less the previous shots would be 7-0. 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8=36 damage and that is under the assumption of 20 ARM, it goes down by the next highest number as ARM goes down and loses the highest number as ARM goes up. SO lets say you have a caster with 20 boxes and 22 ARM..it dies to average dice, a 23 ARM caster with 15 boxes dies.

Now these assumptions are that you hit every time and the damage dice are average, which wont happen but I think you get the idea.

[Lightninja]

Doesn't Reinholdt have to be B2B with Caine to get Reload? If you are charging or using Gatecrasher you loose 1 - 4 shots! I guess you could make Reinholdt run 14 inches and hope you measured everything correctly. LOL I can imagine the scenario of Caine telling Reiny to go run at the caster and he will meet him there...

[A8mew]

Step 1: Be within 19" of the enemy warcaster and able to draw LoS.
Step 2: Declare you are using Caine's feat.
Step 3: Start rolling dice. This doesn't serve much purpose except informing them of how much they're dying by, but you need to do it anyway.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Victory by caster assassination.

In more detail, after declaring you're using Caine's feat, lets say you make his two free attacks. On the first attack, you hit and roll with POW 12. On the second attack, you now roll with a POW of 13. On a third attack, POW 14- just as long as you keep hitting. Given Caine's high RAT and the fact Rangers are a thing that exists, your chances of missing will be abysmally low.

EDIT: Although Reinholdt must be B2B to use Reload on Caine, you can activate Reinholdt first then use Reload. Afterwards Caine can walk off the battlefield, see his wife and children (if he has any) and get a drink at a local bar. So long as he's back later that turn, he will still have the free shot from Reload.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Doesn't Reinholdt have to be B2B with Caine to get Reload? If you are charging or using Gatecrasher you loose 1 - 4 shots! I guess you could make Reinholdt run 14 inches and hope you measured everything correctly. LOL I can imagine the scenario of Caine telling Reiny to go run at the caster and he will meet him there...

Reinholdt needs to be in b2b in order to activate reload. Once that is done Caine can move about as he pleases and will still benefit from an additional ranged attack.

Charging does not require you to lose 1-4 attacks, and I'm honestly unsure where you got those numbers.

[xWHITESPEEDx]

I think he was talking about spending the focus to cast gatecrasher. Although just walking up he still has a threat range of 19 inches so you may not even need to cast that.

[Da-Rock]

Gate Crasher is usually used for surprise. When the opponent has several infantry and a jack in front of him while Cain is behind his own lines......Gate Crash into his face and say, "Elllo Govinah"

[Da-Rock]

Doesn't Reinholdt have to be B2B with Caine to get Reload? If you are charging or using Gatecrasher you loose 1 - 4 shots! I guess you could make Reinholdt run 14 inches and hope you measured everything correctly. LOL I can imagine the scenario of Caine telling Reiny to go run at the caster and he will meet him there...

1-4?? Gate Crasher is 3 Focus and Charging is free. Reinholdt - as others have said just gives the extra shot during his activation and Cain uses it anytime during his.

[Lightninja]

I said 1-4 shots because I thought Caine had to be B2B with Reinholdt at the time he wanted to use Reload, and 3 shots that were not bought because the focus was spent on Gatecrasher. Thanks everyone who answered, I will definitely pick up eCaine and try him out for my SR list.

[midas]

Charge a target (any Target), move 10", check for success or failure of charge, cast Gate Crasher, Place 8", check melee range, if success melee range, new charge target has been acquired.................fire fire fire fire!!!!!!

A failed charge ends the models activation. Also, I believe you can not charge twice, since you can not move twice.

Also note that the cumulative +1 damage is only for previous hits, so better not miss

[Da-Rock]

A failed charge ends the models activation. Also, I believe you can not charge twice, since you can not move twice.

Also note that the cumulative +1 damage is only for previous hits, so better not miss

Correct, that's why I said you have to check for a successful charge, then you cast Gate Crasher and place 8". The rulebook states if for any reason your Charge Target is not there and you have melee range to another you can reassign your charge target. Its Gunfighter so I don't think Epic Caine gets a boost to his charge shot anyways, but its good for the extra 3" and you still get an attack.

The +1 damage is added after each successful hit and doesn't revert back to zero after a miss. The cumulative damage is for the entire turn on the Feat.

[Malc0r]

A quick question: does the cumulative bonus also apply to the explosive 3" AoE? Or is that always just unboostable pw 10?

[Gryphin]

Ya, but why would I want to drop my threat range by 4" and lose 3 shots by using Gatecrasher? Charge a Ranger in the back, kill him, power up by +1, you lose 1 POW 10 shot, and now you get to keep shooting away at anything in 12" RNG.

[katadder]

see everyone goes on about how much eCaines feat kills casters but I have yet to kill one with it, even when aiming. RAT9 is nice but that means 7s on a hell of alot of casters. definately need rangers, aiming etc to make that kill.
personally for me eCaines feat has had more success after I heavily damage all an opponents beasts (in hordes obviously) then use his feat to RFP them, no reaving, no feats like prime thaggys etc

[vintersbastard]

A quick question: does the cumulative bonus also apply to the explosive 3" AoE? Or is that always just unboostable pw 10?

It's not a Spellstorm pistol damage roll, so no.

Also, there is a Rules forum for questions like this.

Ya, but why would I want to drop my threat range by 4" and lose 3 shots by using Gatecrasher? Charge a Ranger in the back, kill him, power up by +1, you lose 1 POW 10 shot, and now you get to keep shooting away at anything in 12" RNG.

LOS? There are possible reasons, but they depend on the specifics of the situation.

[tolcreator]

Ya, but why would I want to drop my threat range by 4" and lose 3 shots by using Gatecrasher? Charge a Ranger in the back, kill him, power up by +1, you lose 1 POW 10 shot, and now you get to keep shooting away at anything in 12" RNG.

Because you otherwise don't have line of sight to the enemy caster. Also you do not need to shoot your ranger in the back...

Edit: Step minus one: Take a focus from your squire (you DID take a squire, right?)
Edit: Step zero: Move reinholdt to base to base and use reload (you DID take reinholdt, right?)

Step one: Declare charge on your ranger (you can measure the distance to him beforehand, by measuring your control radius, to make sure it will be successful).
Step two: Make the charge move. Are you in melee range of your target? Yes? Good, the charge has succeeded.
Step three: Cast gatecrasher, pop up 8 inches away, hopefully in melee range of your target. Extra credit: have a ranger within 5 inches and LOS. Even tho you are in melee range, gunfighter is still a ranged attack and rangers still give you +2 to hit.
Step four: Pop feat.
Step five: Shoot the target seven times.

Best done of course with targets you're pretty sure you'll kill with seven shots. Otherwise, keep on whittling down his army to give him less places to hide. I've killed *plenty* of casters/locks with caine... and plenty of times, I've used his feat to just kill heavies/lots and lots of troops. Caine can fire ten pow 12 shots even on turns that are not his feat... and often, that's more than enough to kill a caster, and easier to get once his heavies are gone.

[PG_Trevy the Great]

see everyone goes on about how much eCaines feat kills casters but I have yet to kill one with it, even when aiming. RAT9 is nice but that means 7s on a hell of alot of casters. definately need rangers, aiming etc to make that kill.
personally for me eCaines feat has had more success after I heavily damage all an opponents beasts (in hordes obviously) then use his feat to RFP them, no reaving, no feats like prime thaggys etc

If you go into a game expecting to assassinate with your Feat you will often be sorely disappointed. Cover, defensive abilities such as Sac Pawn and any 'caster that can camp to ARM 21-22+ can seriously hamper Caine's ability to assassinate, not to mention swingy dice. One of the strengths of Caine's feat is how easily it can be adapted to any given situation; if there's a heavy in your face you can Feat to remove it; you can Feat to destroy clusters of infantry or even seriously punish High-ARM/heavy infantry. It should really be used for assassination if there's no alternative or if your opponent overextended themselves and your chances are fairly high (I.E. Caine out-attritioned them). Playing for assassination alone is far too dicey to be sustainable.

[noogai131]

Because you otherwise don't have line of sight to the enemy caster. Also you do not need to shoot your ranger in the back...

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold on partner. Charge rules specifically state that you MUST make your charge attack against your charge target.

[Kenton]

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold on partner. Charge rules specifically state that you MUST make your charge attack against your charge target.

True, but if you use Gatecrasher before taking the shot you don't have to. It's all in the order of events

[tolcreator]

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold on partner. Charge rules specifically state that you MUST make your charge attack against your charge target.

If the charging model cannot make its first melee attack against the charge target, the charging model can make its first melee attack against another eligible target, but this is not a charge attack. It does not loose it's first attack.

So similarly, if say 3 models A, B and C, charge 2 other models D and E. D is the charge target of both A and B, E is the charge target of C. D and E are close enough to each other that they are both in the melee range of B at the end of the charge move. A kills D. B now finds that his charge target is dead. However, because his movement ended with his charge target in his melee range, his charge succeeded and his activation did not end. He still has an eligible target in range, E. He may attack E, but does not get boosted damage. Same for targets vanishing due to electro leaps etc.

[noogai131]

True, but if you use Gatecrasher before taking the shot you don't have to. It's all in the order of events

Well hold on up. I was under the impression that a melee charge attack (albeit it is a gunfighter attack so that may complicate the rulings) Is being initiated , therefor this attack must eb resolved before casting spells. It's not like you can charge a target, cast an arcane bolt at something like a warcaster to win via assassination and not attack your own guy. The action must be completed before casting spells and making more actions, correct?

[katadder]

nope, you could charge someone cast an arcane bolt then make your attacks if you like. spells can be cast at any point between actions, so the charge and the charge attack are 2 seperate things allowing spell casting between them.

[tolcreator]

nope, you could charge someone cast an arcane bolt then make your attacks if you like. spells can be cast at any point between actions, so the charge and the charge attack are 2 seperate things allowing spell casting between them.

Same way you can say, charge, and then pop your feat before making your charge attack. Or eStryker can charge, and then power up 3D6 before making his first attack. Or you could cast a spell to buff your attacks, before making that first attack.