What do you do with a drunken Saeryn?

[PG_dungeongod]

I was thinking about this with the recent Vayle2 and Lyllyth2 thread, and I have no idea what to do about Saeryn with Skorne. With Protectorate, I have some options (none of them particularly good) but with Skorne I am feeling like I don't have a lot of choices. What do people do about her if they run into her in a tournament setting? How does Skorne deal with the whole "You can't touch this" feat BS?

[PG_Blitzer]

pMorghoul handles Saeryn very well, counter feat, and tie her army up in melee. It's been years since I've lost that match up.

[x3tsniper]

pMorgs, or infantry brick your caster. I have beat Saeryn with pHexeris by just making sure he couldn't fly over my army for a turn. I ate a lot of punishment to do it though, but you can only really react to Saeryns feat unless you are playing certain armies that keep his army from charging, or you can steal first strike in a way that doesn't trade a model for a model.

[Tainted Coil]

eHexeris is a good answer with an Archidon as the node. Jus thold it back, then fly in an Hellfire her to death.

I second pMorg though. I've played that out against a friend a bunch of times and we are about 50/50 with it. Use Morg's feat to counter Saeryn's. You're gonna take some damge but with no forcing it should be minimal. Watch out for things like Angellii that can charge from outside his control (they at least get the charge boost) and things like sorceress that can make the flyers charge without being forced.

I often use Nihilators to just run to engage his beasts, making it that much harder for her to trap you with the feat. Just protect Morg, he's so fragile!

[x3tsniper]

That's why it is a good thing, that they have a snowballs chance in hell of hitting him most of the time. Behind a wall? Defense 19 in melee and good luck. Then there is that one time they hit you and they are dice + 4 with a scythean and he takes out 2 spirals on one of your beasts... lol

[Glasskin]

Take her off to the Legion Center?


Seriously though, pMorghoul is my go to guy against Saeryn too. If she's going to run beast heavy to get the most out of her feat, you might as well respond with a feat that cripples beasts.

In theory, anything that lets you stand firm through her feat turn and the turn after would work. Infantry swarms with pMakeda, or the Xerxis Brick would weather Saeryn's feat turn pretty well, and be able to respond on the next turn. Anyone with a decent ranged/magic game stands a good shot too. Both versions of Hexeris or Mordikaar would be able to do enough damage with just a little extra ranged support from their lists.

[Lanz]

I thought this would be a thread asking about what to do with a drunk Saeryn, in which case I had a very inappropriate answer. Now I'm disappointed.

[x3tsniper]

I thought this would be a thread asking about what to do with a drunk Saeryn, in which case I had a very inappropriate answer. Now I'm disappointed.

Well sure you could do that too, if you wanted to catch blighted.... oO

[PG_dungeongod]

Yeah, I was feeling punchy, and for some reason had "What do you do with a Drunken Sailor" swinging around in my head...

That said - all of this is good advice. I really like it. I am trying to figure out for L&L, since I suspect I will see her (or have a good chance of seeing her) there in the Commanders tournament. Given that I see very little Legion in the local meta, I am concerned about her and Vayle2 - sigh.

[Lanz]

Well sure you could do that too, if you wanted to catch blighted.... oO

Could be worth it. They all seem like a pretty chipper bunch.

[x3tsniper]

Yeah, I was feeling punchy, and for some reason had "What do you do with a Drunken Sailor" swinging around in my head...

That said - all of this is good advice. I really like it. I am trying to figure out for L&L, since I suspect I will see her (or have a good chance of seeing her) there in the Commanders tournament. Given that I see very little Legion in the local meta, I am concerned about her and Vayle2 - sigh.

Honestly the only redeeming trait that I have noticed from eVayle is her ability to have her beasts walk away after they have killed something. Of course one of the best players is going to be able to win a tournament with her because, well she isn't bad, but I honestly think that Legion has better casters you should be worrying about, like pVayle and abs. Oo

[Soylent]

Krea's ranged attack does well to shut a beast down during her feat or any other time. Other control abilities such as Locker, Muzzle, Stranglehold can minimize the feat's effectiveness.
Agonizer to soften the blow after the feat turn.
Ashes to Ashes or an AoE can catch Saeryn off guard.
Extoller can put some good damage on a Legion beast during the feat if it has a couple souls.
Venator Reivers don't worry about the feat.

[x3tsniper]

Ah Soylent, my archnemisis, we meet again!

[PG_dungeongod]

Honestly the only redeeming trait that I have noticed from eVayle is her ability to have her beasts walk away after they have killed something. Of course one of the best players is going to be able to win a tournament with her because, well she isn't bad, but I honestly think that Legion has better casters you should be worrying about, like pVayle and abs. Oo

The reason Vayle2 scares me is because of the dual-Angelius tactic of using their animus to control zones and then refuging away. Add in admonition and purification, and you have a nasty problem on your hands. We can shut some of that down with Agonizers, but it still doesn't negate the fact that they can charge in (for free if there is a Nyss Sorceress on Hellion nearby) and then kill/do damage to something and then refuge away (ignoring free strikes). Throw admonition on them, and it makes it very hard to counter that tactic.

[PG_dungeongod]

Ashes to Ashes or an AoE can catch Saeryn off guard.

Saeryn is immune to blast damage though. Ashes to Ashes works, but not AOEs with blast damage.

[Soylent]

Ah Soylent, my archnemisis, we meet again!

Oh sorry, was responding to how to deal with Saeryn. I do like the idea of having a nemisis though

[Triumph Of Man]

The reason Vayle2 scares me is because of the dual-Angelius tactic of using their animus to control zones and then refuging away. Add in admonition and purification, and you have a nasty problem on your hands. We can shut some of that down with Agonizers, but it still doesn't negate the fact that they can charge in (for free if there is a Nyss Sorceress on Hellion nearby) and then kill/do damage to something and then refuge away (ignoring free strikes). Throw admonition on them, and it makes it very hard to counter that tactic.

Locker, unless purification removes animi as well. I can't remember.

[PG_dungeongod]

yeah, pretty sure it does

[Tainted Coil]

The reason Vayle2 scares me is because of the dual-Angelius tactic of using their animus to control zones and then refuging away. Add in admonition and purification, and you have a nasty problem on your hands. We can shut some of that down with Agonizers, but it still doesn't negate the fact that they can charge in (for free if there is a Nyss Sorceress on Hellion nearby) and then kill/do damage to something and then refuge away (ignoring free strikes). Throw admonition on them, and it makes it very hard to counter that tactic.

Tiberion will help with that when he comes out!

[PG_possiblyarowbot]

How does Skorne deal with the whole "You can't touch this" feat BS?

You're not thinking with slams. Sure, you can't target her models with a slam, but her feat does not say you can't target your own people.

[Lanz]

You're not thinking with slams. Sure, you can't target her models with a slam, but her feat does not say you can't target your own people.

Given that collateral damage can't be boosted, what would the value be of a single strength damage roll against models that frequently can't be knocked down?

[Soylent]

Given that collateral damage can't be boosted, what would the value be of a single strength damage roll against models that frequently can't be knocked down?

The one option would be Saeryn herself. A POW14 could do a bit of damage but I agree, slamming isn't much of an option where her battlegroup is concerned.

[Lanz]

Directly on Saeryn, I agree. She doesn't generally need to be right in the front-lines, though.

[PG_TyrantAndrew]

In a tournament just past I had EHexy Black Spot and then Hellfire saeryn to death with help from a drake, she's so squishy.

[x3tsniper]

Don't forget though, Refuge requires that they kill a model. My friend was theory crafting that he would charge my jack with angelius armor pierce, animus and refuge away. The problem is he needs to kill a model to refuge away, and Angelius doesn't kill heavies in a single go almost ever. Maybe if they get crazy rolls on the charge, but it doesn't happen much, and he will only be a pow 14 with eVayle.

[PG_ahknas]

Don't forget though, Refuge requires that they kill a model. My friend was theory crafting that he would charge my jack with angelius armor pierce, animus and refuge away. The problem is he needs to kill a model to refuge away, and Angelius doesn't kill heavies in a single go almost ever. Maybe if they get crazy rolls on the charge, but it doesn't happen much, and he will only be a pow 14 with eVayle.

Doesn't refuge trigger on the hit? At least for sloan it does.

[x3tsniper]

Just checked, it is hit. >.> He told me kill. Well, I guess it works then. >< Fear for your life, and play molik bomb and kill 2 angeli in a turn.

[Beckman]

I honestly think that Legion has better casters you should be worrying about, like pVayle and abs. Oo

pVayl, I could see being better than eVayl, but eVayl is >> than Abs... by a lot.

Purification (Goodbye Upkeeps and Animi!), Refuge, and Admonition, Icy Grip, and Stealth on a Unit??. With some nice AOE support.

And the best thing: She has GUNFIGHTER, so she can charge pointlessly!!! Wootwoot, 3 extra inches of movement! (pVayl has no melee weapon)

Also, you're either looking at -1 point heavies, or a full unit of stealthed Raptor Cav... either one is really annoying.

[doom_reaver]

Fatty rasheth might help against Saeryn cheaper cannoneers so you're not completely useless during the feat turn. as people have said cras from venators can put the hurt on the relatively fragile legion beasts he also has the possibility of arcing a breath of corruption at saeryn once a turn too and if he's lucky he can put blood mark on her using the node which can really hamper assassination attempts. but as has been previously mentioned pmorg is one of the best for the job.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

Careful with Rasheth against Saeryn. She gets anywhere near fatty and he dies. Instantly.

[Rez]

A lot of people are suggesting you spell Saeryn to death. She has Banishing Ward, surely a canny player will see this coming and just upkeep it on Saeryn?

I havent played this matchup much with Skorne, but with my Circle eBaldur was a good matchup for her. She doesnt have any Str buffs, so any serious armour lists can give her trouble. With that in mind, I think Xerxis could be a good matchup for her. Legion beasts are pretty squishy, so pop the feat defensively and basically tank her feat turn. Considering you can get Tibbers up to an effective Arm 27 if you need to, nothing in Saeryns army can touch that.

[onthedownlow]

Only ever encountered her the once in a tournament setting - I was running a Xerxis Tier 4 brick list with two full units of Cataphract Arcuarii and two Flayer Cannons, which meant that the 'invincible feat turn' didn't actually work out so well for the Legion player.

I just generally try to create overlapping freestrike lanes if possible, to minimise the amount of my models that the enemy could get to on their next turn if possible. The slam idea is pretty cool though..

[sourclams]

pMorghoul is the best bet because it's a feat-counterfeat situation, but Saeryn should be forced to feat first.

eMakeda out-threats her and MK can do brutal things to low-ARM, low-box Angels, which again forces her to feat early.

[Soylent]

A lot of people are suggesting you spell Saeryn to death. She has Banishing Ward, surely a canny player will see this coming and just upkeep it on Saeryn?

I havent played this matchup much with Skorne, but with my Circle eBaldur was a good matchup for her. She doesnt have any Str buffs, so any serious armour lists can give her trouble. With that in mind, I think Xerxis could be a good matchup for her. Legion beasts are pretty squishy, so pop the feat defensively and basically tank her feat turn. Considering you can get Tibbers up to an effective Arm 27 if you need to, nothing in Saeryns army can touch that.

How do you spell assassinate Severius1 or Skarre2 under the feat? Ashes to Ashes/BoC/Essence Blast something else(coming from our main ways of spell assassin casters). A lot of times with those denial feats, they overlook possible ways to get them. I can say that most of my caster kills against Skarre2 and Saeryn were during their feat turns.

[Rez]

Yeah I realise that, I just dont think you will get it off against good opponents. You can bounce two boosted pow 10s into Saeryn if you use Hexys feat, and thats not going to kill her. So then your relying on things like slams or DH throws into her, which relies on bad positioning by your opponent. Assassinating eSkarre is a hell of a lot easier, considering she cuts herself for the feat, doesnt have transfers and likes to spend her focus.

[ennuii]

hi. I have no input here, and haven't read any of it. But this thread has had me singing that song for like 3 days straight...

[PG_dungeongod]

hi. I have no input here, and haven't read any of it. But this thread has had me singing that song for like 3 days straight...

Mission Accomplished!

[PG_dungeongod]

Quick update on this - I played a game against a local part-time Legion player on Vassal this weekend. So, not a perfect test, but gave me a feel for how she played (since I had never played against her). I used a Hexeris2 list that I have been using a lot recently:

Hexeris 2
* Razorworm (bonded)
* Gladiator
* Bronzeback
* Molik Karn
10 Swordsmen
* UA
10 Venator Reivers
* UA
Extoller

Worked really well - the swordsmen and venators did a good job of clogging things up around Hexeris while the rest of the army advanced. Had to use Molik Karn to take out a flanking angelius (As a sacrifice), but I ended up getting the good old grand-slam assassination off (slamming their Cavalry solo over Saeryn and then following up with the Gladiator).

So, I think it is more doable than I originally thought. Hexeris 2 himself can take out beasts on his feat turn - I used him to kill an Angelius (who had respawn - grr) and kill a scythean, while fury starving Saeryn.

[PG_dbsmash]

Quick update on this - I played a game against a local part-time Legion player on Vassal this weekend.

As said part-time Legion player, I can attest to how annoying the damn Reivers were. Their CRA, along with Burst Fire, allowed them to put some really good early damage down on me. Also, keeping his warlock up against the swordsmen with his Razorworm next to him left me very little room to be able to land 2 Angelius. I could charge with 1, but he kept 2-3 fury around to transfer; that forced me to play attrition instead, which is often times itself a win against Saeryn. I obviously don't play Skorne, but man those Reivers seem like awesome sauce to me.