Legion and attrition

[Neutralyze]

So after sitting back for awhile I have to ask, why do a lot of guys here think legion can't play a long game where we use our spd and hitting power to destroy the opponents army instead of going for the assassination?

I never go for the assassination unless it's given to me. It's always safer to pick apart the opposing army.

[Celowin]

I always play for attrition, and only go for an assassination if I'm losing the attrition game.

The best local player I know described it this way, "Suppose you have an 80% chance of killing the opponent's caster, but if it fails your own caster is exposed. That means that you have a 20% chance of losing the game. If instead you use your turn to take out a heavy, you will control the flow of the game and eventually win."

I'm not the best at following that advice, but it drastically changed the way that I look at the game.

[PG_beatdown]

I rarely go for the assassination. There is a lot less risk killing the army.

[TrollFace666]

I don't go for the assassination unless it is open for me to take. I like to take my time and play attrition whenever I can.

[Electronic Warfare]

While I've just started legion, and only recently restarted playing, I last played Warmachine in MK I. I like to play the attrition game. I'd rather dismantle my opponents army, that way I have more resources to devote to killing the enemy caster, in the later game.

[Trollz]

I also don't usually try to go for the assassination. It's so easy for legion to just tear stuff apart and equally easy for your opponent to resist assassination that I don't rely on it. That's not to say that I don't take assassinations into consideration or feign their set-up occasionally, you should always take the opportunity to pressure your opponents king, so to speak.

[Obeisance]

Yeah, I usually just kill stuff until a reasonable assassination appears.

There's no point going for the balls out assassination unless you're desperate. It is however, super sweet when that 10% chance pays off.

[Obeisance]

Yeah, I usually just kill stuff until a reasonable assassination appears.

There's no point going for the balls out assassination unless you're desperate. It is however, super sweet when that 10% chance pays off.

[Hrimfaxi]

I run into issues when my speed and range doesn't let me do enough to control the scenario. A good example would be a match I recently had up against Ashlynn, Boomhowlers, and ATGM at 35 points. I had a fairly typical Legion build of 3 heavies, Deathstalkers, etc. The combination of medium bases, KD with tough, and seeing through stealth made many of my options unattractive and I was in danger of just getting scenarioed if I didn't engage in some manner.
Can Legion attrition? Certainly. Sometimes though, you run into lists that do well at making Legion have to play against its strengths. I personally find dealing with massed good infantry in a terrain control scenario to be the main issue with Legion for myself.
I usually play at 35 points, though. My opinions may just be due to my smaller scale than 50 point games.
Do you think Legion attritions better at 35 or 50 points?

[Neutralyze]

This is very different from what has been said on these forums from a lot of players. Including some posters here.

[Walter]

Legion does suffer from a surplus of assassination crazed players. Call it Ret-syndrome. Neut's definitely right though, the faction is ranged/mobility, no reason they can't shoot & scoot with the best of em.

[Neutralyze]

At adept icon I went to turn ten in some games making sure to kill mostly everything I could because I did it while trying to remain safe.

[Scottl1]

I am not sure if its attrition but I like for my initial charge in to kill some decent pieces to clear a 3rd or 4th turn shot at the caster. I play pretty aggressive with Saeryn and sometimes if I can't get a decent feat usage I can be kinda close. lol I think some casters are a bit better in attrition like Kallus and pThag but you can certainly do it with the vayls too with their movement stuff. I just prefer to try to end it by turn 4. With Saeryn and 2 angels I can usually make it happen while the 2 scytheans keep his stuff nice and busy.

[Korhil]

I always play the attrition game. Usually it gets to the point where I commit my lock and soon after they commit theirs. Thats the point where I try to kill their lock as if its just another target.

[sourclams]

I play a heavily attrition-based game with all my armies, and Legion is no exception.

Viewing assassination as 'Can' versus 'Must' is probably due to player perception in any given game. A legion player is likely outnumbered, sometimes heavily, but is also probably more mobile than their opponent. If you don't have confidence in your army or an innate understanding of your opponent's army or their limitations, the mind easily gets funneled towards 'I have to win now because I won't win later once those twenty d00dz close in".

[TheLat]

I am known for running two carniveans with pThagrosh at the 25 point level. I love the attrition.

[EtherealPaints]

This is very different from what has been said on these forums from a lot of players. Including some posters here.

It is amusing how much people tend to say Legion is an assassination faction throughout the forums and then see a thread like this where everybody posts the opposite of that.

I think Celowin said it best. Play for the attrition game, and if you start losing the attrition game for one reason or another then start looking for assassination avenues.

[Booger]

I am not a fan of the attrition game. I design my lists around assassinating the other caster and a perfect game for me is one that no model dies but the enemy caster.

Anyssa and Totem Hunter at 35 pts with both preys on the caster? Check!
Rhyas feat Carny throw? Check!
Long range Ravagore sniping? Check!

I picked legion because of the sneaky ninja vibe and I play them like that. What can I say? Its my kind of fun and I would probably play any faction exactly the same.

[vaildin]

I take the best option my opponent gives me. If I can kill some models, without exposing myself to a counter-charge, I kill them. If the opposing caster is right there and vulnerable, I take it. Or, if my opponent is out-playing me, and attrition definitely won't favor me, I'll go for the kill.

[Ikuinen Kaamos]

I guess it has something to do with experience, and not only legion. I remember when we were just starting at our local club, everybody just jumped at each other's throats all the time trying to pull off crazy assasination runs, of course since we were all new to the game, we overexposed our casters a lot.

Now that some months have passed, we are starting to see that the games are more scenario and attrition oriented. Still, at least for me, the reason why I sometimes go for assasination is because it's easier for me to develop a long term plan for it than for an attrition game.

[Seferon]

I'm not going to say that assassination is not a part of my game, rather it kinda depends on the list i am currently playing. If i'm playing something like either of the Vayls, pThag or Bethayne, then i try to kill as many things as i can before going for the assassination. Its just what they are good at. Other warlocks like eLylyth or even Saeryn to a degree, i play in a assassination style. I have also been known to bait out assassinations through making my opponent use his warnoun to be able to pull it off.

Overall though, i play legion by one simple rule every turn. Can i kill my opponent's warlock? No? What key models can i kill this turn then?

[Booger]

So we know from many of Neut's tournament results that Legion can play attrition and can play it well, but is it the best assassination faction? I know Cryx can do it well too.

Related: I don't see many assassination lists winning big tournaments, is it possible or is an attrition based list required?

[PG_Nemlock]

I think the only caster where I actively look for an assassination is eVayl. That's mainly because her angles are bananas and she can keep herself so safe if she fails. But even still, she's playing the attrition game until I see a good shot at assassination. Maybe with Saeryn I'm trying harder to push her beasts through the lines to the caster. I think her feat is pushing towards that anyway as she's excellent at jamming.

I'd guess the pure assassination players are of the same mind as "scenarios suck". It's a mindset I just don't get. There's absolutely nothing wrong with attrition. Sure, you might not be able to walk around and grab a drink, maybe watch some other people play. But whatever. If it takes pThags 6 or more turns to grind the other army into dust under his spiny growth'd boot so be it.

[Northern Ronin]

So we know from many of Neut's tournament results that Legion can play attrition and can play it well, but is it the best assassination faction? I know Cryx can do it well too.

Related: I don't see many assassination lists winning big tournaments, is it possible or is an attrition based list required?

The main reason why assassination lists don't win high level tournaments is that if a skilled player sees your list is capable of killing their caster, their caster will often be too far away / too high a camp / too well screened to get the job done, or at least enough that the run is of a poor success rate (and most such runs leave either an army or a caster exposed and open to counter death). This means the assassination attempt is often in the hands of your opponent. Of course, forcing them into a defensive stance can have its own benefits, but if your list cannot handle a straight fight at all, then you've a glaring, abuse-able weakness that will get abused.

[Roktop]

I play for scenario first, hit and run attrition second (often both of those at the same time) assassination if presented or as a last resort.

After wins and losses the tournaments I have played reward scenario points followed by army points (hardcore aside) and most experienced players protect thier casters very well.

So I feel it's a better strategy.

[PG_BloodRath]

Over 1/2 of our locks are attriton locks. In my metta legion and cryx are viewed as glass cannons. I have set out to change that view

[PurchasedPig]

I definitely do play more attrition than assassination. My first warlock that I learned properly was pThags and since then the attrition game is stuck in my head . I also enjoy eLylyth as an attrition 'lock but in a recent thread I posted I was shot down for thinking as such! I'm experimenting with the BFS for increasing the Ravagores damage output in the endgame.

Despite feeling the attrition I think it is fair to say that in general Hordes is not as good at it as WarMachine because when the beasts die out the caster is left high and dry. Skorne and Trolls can prevent this with some crazy brick playstyles whereas Legion does not (with the exception of pThags). Although we can o very well at it I would say that a PURELY attrition game is hard with us by comparison to something like Trolls or Khador.

-PurchasedPig-

[Omnus]

I actually have to force myself to try for assasinations even when they open up. I prefer to table my opponent or kill enough that I can just claim a scenario victory. I noticed the same thing Neut has said...tons of people see Legion as assasination. which is why I wrote...

http://handcannononline.com/blog/201...12-part-vii-2/

Even with eVayl. I played her 4 rounds in a SR2012 event. 2/4 games I simply tabled my opponent and won on scenario. (esorsha was all that was left, so I just went and killed the monoliths on turn 8-10 and the final round was double replusling pVlad out of a zone when all he had left was vlad and drago) just felt easier and I was low on time.

[Booger]

... Of course, forcing them into a defensive stance can have its own benefits, but if your list cannot handle a straight fight at all, then you've a glaring, abuse-able weakness that will get abused.

While I love assassination and the mind games that come with it I must admit my tournament record leaves a lot to be desired. I don't consider myself a high level player though so maybe it was more wishful thinking.

[Cannotcope]

I come from playing Menoth.
I assassinate the opposing caster when he's the last enemy model on the table.

Seriously though, it always helps to breakdown an opposing army and their caster's support system before you kill the caster or win by scenario, so I think it would be hard to say that Legion (or any other faction) never plays an attrition style game. That said, I suppose some players/factions spend longer on the attrition side than others.

[Lanz]

I go out of my way for the Assassination with eThagrosh, but with nearly any other warlock assassination is more of an opportunistic thing. I wouldn't say I play attrition very often(only pThagrosh), but I don't always assassinate either. Actually, I would say my most common method is systematic elimination of threats based on priority and proximity. If that happens to be the enemy warlock/warcaster, that's gravy.

[Roadhouse]

Actually, I would say my most common method is systematic elimination of threats based on priority and proximity. If that happens to be the enemy warlock/warcaster, that's gravy.

This right here. Its not what people think of when attrition is mentioned. When I think of attrition the idea of a slow, piece trading, you can't tell who is winning til the end, grind fest comes to mind. For Legion, in my experience, its an alpha strike that removes key threats and sets the tempo for the remainder of the game. The initial blows don't even have to give that much of a model advantage if your opponent perceives his losses as too great, because then you have the mental advantage.

Having everyone else look at Legion as a balls to wall stab your caster in the eye ball faction actually helps us, as Jaster has pointed out. You can play the game, or the opponent, and knowing how to do both is what wins games, again this is just my experience.

[Episkopos]

Most of the players I play against take very slow turns.
I make up for it by killing their caster or dying after a glorious charge before they get to take very many.

[Beckman]

So after sitting back for awhile I have to ask, why do a lot of guys here think legion can't play a long game where we use our spd and hitting power to destroy the opponents army instead of going for the assassination?

I never go for the assassination unless it's given to me. It's always safer to pick apart the opposing army.

I've been saying this since MKI. Assassination just kind of happens while you're doing your thing, killing all the other guy's d00ds.

[SteveinNYC]

why do a lot of guys here think legion can't play a long game where we use our spd and hitting power to destroy the opponents army instead of going for the assassination?

I don't know about not being able to play attrition. I would RATHER play assassination because I prefer the play style, attrition is risky, and playing beast heavy makes assassination easier. I would rather control the pace and pressure my opponent by pushing for an assassination because I find that style of play fun. The longer the game goes on the longer my opponent will have a chance to pull off their assassination run, so playing a slow grind still entails risk. And beasts are good at concentrating force to kill a single model, so running beast heavy means I have more angles to reach the opposing caster with a model that can finish it.

[Mad_Zerker]

By default I am an attrition player, always have been. Probably came from playing Khador for years. But if I see the assassination, I go for it.

[Obeisance]

I don't know about not being able to play attrition. I would RATHER play assassination because I prefer the play style, attrition is risky, and playing beast heavy makes assassination easier. I would rather control the pace and pressure my opponent by pushing for an assassination because I find that style of play fun. The longer the game goes on the longer my opponent will have a chance to pull off their assassination run, so playing a slow grind still entails risk. And beasts are good at concentrating force to kill a single model, so running beast heavy means I have more angles to reach the opposing caster with a model that can finish it.

You have that backwards. Assassination is risky. Attrition is safe.
Assassination spends resources to kill one model.
Attrition spends resources to kill many models.

If you go for the assassination and you fail, those many models often wreck your toys.

While I understand what you're trying to say in regards to "kill my opponent's caster/lock before he kills mine" - but it's not the safest play unless your opponent screws up in a fairly big way and gives you an opening or doesn't camp enough.

That said, the balls out 10% assassination is always fun.

[Neutralyze]

a good view is how everyone looked at elylyth in past threads here. everyones like move 1st turn and 2nd turn assassinate. well if you use the feat to destroy the whole army it is alot safer than going for the kill, failing and having an army to deal with.

[OminousAfro]

This right here. Its not what people think of when attrition is mentioned. When I think of attrition the idea of a slow, piece trading, you can't tell who is winning til the end, grind fest comes to mind. For Legion, in my experience, its an alpha strike that removes key threats and sets the tempo for the remainder of the game. The initial blows don't even have to give that much of a model advantage if your opponent perceives his losses as too great, because then you have the mental advantage.

Having everyone else look at Legion as a balls to wall stab your caster in the eye ball faction actually helps us, as Jaster has pointed out. You can play the game, or the opponent, and knowing how to do both is what wins games, again this is just my experience.

This is actually kind of where the "attrition" terminology falls apart for me. If the goal is to put your opponent on their back foot through model superiority, isn't that how all factions play? When attrition is defined as "killing more of your opponents army before they kill yours" then every army is an attrition army.

Sure, some armies will receive, then retaliate over and over again, and that is a more traditional attrition definition (and something Legion can also do) but ultimately it seems like it's coming down to having more threat on the table than your opponent, regardless od faction.

[Beckman]

a good view is how everyone looked at elylyth in past threads here. everyones like move 1st turn and 2nd turn assassinate. well if you use the feat to destroy the whole army it is alot safer than going for the kill, failing and having an army to deal with.

True. And I usually default to that. Except when my opponent gives me a really nice shot... I at least look at the math... If they're standing in the open and hovering at DEF15, ARM 19-20ish, I'll just pour shots into them... But games are rarely that convenient. I also roll with a x2 Ravagore x2 Bolt Thrower loadout, rather than another melee beater... so I have a little more wiggle room as to what's a doable assassination run... But a worse matchup against lists that require me to have a melee beater to face.